Obscure Statement on the Time of Trouble by EG White

The text below is from Manuscript 1, 1848.
Written November 18, at Dorchester, Massachusetts. The statements are made by Ellen White while in vision, written down by Joseph Bates. These statements are found in Joseph Bates' tract, A Seal of the Living God, A Hundred Forty-four Thousand of the Servants of God Sealed, pp. 24-26, 32.

What captured my attention is that she says the time of trouble has begun.

At the bottom of this statement: "Why, they are just ready to blow".

Since 2001, eighteen plus years, I've been encouraging Adventists here and through other media to re-examine our position that the trumpets have all blown except the seventh. Well, friends the evidence continues to mount. What do you think?

What is about to blow?

"The reason why the four winds have not let go, is because the saints are not all sealed. . . Why they are just ready to blow. There;s a check put on because the saints are not sealed."

Trumpets blow after the golden censer is thrown down.
What does throwing down a golden censer signify?

Are you saying the four winds that are ready to blow
is the same as the seven trumpets sounding?

That is so simple, even a little child can understand it perfectly. Rev. 8:1-6 says:

• The angel is given a lot of incense, and he is also given the earth.
   
• He comes to alter and offers the incense on the alter's fire. The smoke arises before God, a sweet savor of prayers.
   
• He takes the same fire from the same alter and fills his censor and tosses it to the earth which results in destruction.
   
• The same fire that burns up the earth in judgment, causes prayers to arise from the saints.
   
• Conclusion: THE SEVEN TRUMPETS ARE THE GREAT TRIBULATION. BLESSED IS HE WHO ENDURES TO THE END.

--staff edit --

The trumpets don't all sound after the golden censor is thrown down.
You have to understand the literary construction here.
Understanding some temple rituals also helps us understand.

When do you first see the seven angels with trumpets?
You see them in verse two.
This signifies they are active all through.

John then focuses on events that transpire in heaven,
Christ ministers at the altar of incense for a time as the prayers of saints arise.
Later He takes coals from the altar and puts them in the censor of incense.
This signifies His preparation to go into the most Holy Place.

When Christ comes back out of the Most Holy Place He throws down the censor and there is thundering, lightning and earthquake signifying Christ's work is finished.


Notice the thunderings, lightning and earthquake come
When Christ throws down the censor and the seventh trumpet has sounded.

The trumpets aren't after Christ's work in the sanctuary, they run parallel with Christ's work in the sanctuary.


{P.S. I used code to try and make a chart. I don't know how to do charts any other way, I hope it works.)

What is being thrown down in Revelation 8:5, the censer or the fire or both? I would say the fire because the purpose of the censor is to carry the fire from the altar and the altar is still in service at the sixth trumpet. The work of the censer isn't finished until the work of the altar is finished.

Christ said: "I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?" Luk 12:49.

Ezekiel was also shown in vision the casting of fire on the earth, in this case on Jerusalem. As James says, fire brings judgment but it is also a figure for the latter rain, the tongues of fire that Christ longs to place on each one of us. Ezekiel is specific about the timing, the sequence of sealing. Like in Revelation, those who are sealed are those who have an ardent prayer life that is in tune with heaven. What a privilege we have to petition the throne of the God of the universe. By faith in the blood we can join those who are sending up petitions that touch and delight the heart of God. We can be sealed by the man in linen.

Eze 10:2 And he spake unto the man clothed with linen, and said, Go in between the wheels, even under the cherub, and fill thine hand with coals of fire from between the cherubims, and scatter them over the city. And he went in in my sight.
Eze 10:3 Now the cherubims stood on the right side of the house, when the man went in; and the cloud filled the inner court.
Eze 10:4 Then the glory of the LORD went up from the cherub, and stood over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the LORD'S glory.
Eze 10:5 And the sound of the cherubims' wings was heard even to the outer court, as the voice of the Almighty God when he speaketh.
Eze 10:6 And it came to pass, that when he had commanded the man clothed with linen, saying, Take fire from between the wheels, from between the cherubims; then he went in, and stood beside the wheels.
Eze 10:7 And one cherub stretched forth his hand from between the cherubims unto the fire that was between the cherubims, and took thereof, and put it into the hands of him that was clothed with linen: who took it, and went out.
Eze 10:8 And there appeared in the cherubims the form of a man's hand under their wings.
Eze 10:9 And when I looked, behold the four wheels by the cherubims, one wheel by one cherub, and another wheel by another cherub: and the appearance of the wheels was as the colour of a beryl stone.

After the command is given to prophecy again in Revelation 10 (after 1844 the prophecy of the trumpets will do that very thing),
Likewise, the golden censor is cast down when Christ states "It is finished"
The seven trumpets are blown again and the four winds are loosed so that they may blow as the Time of Trouble concludes.
It is not an example of either this or that. It is an example of both this and that

I was making a connection to the answer to my question.
I was implying that the winds don't blow until probation closes. What does throwing the censor or fire down signify? I say the ministry has ended.


Rev 8:5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.
6 So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Maybe "all" trumpets is open to discussion. But it indicates "the seven angels who had the seven trumpets" prepared to sound after the censer/fire was thrown to the earth.

Rev 8:2 Seven angels with seven trumpets stand before God.
8:5 Censer/fire thrown down.
8:6 Seven angels with seven trumpets prepared to sound.
8:7 First angel sounded.

Do you suggest that by some unusually odd construct that those verses are not in order?

Good point. I've seen it over and over that without divine help we'll all interpret scripture according to our biases rather than the plain meaning. One way to test ourselves is to ask whether we're being consistent in our application on a given point. EG White exclaimed "Consistency, thou art a jewel!" The Lord help us all to be candid with ourselves and humble about our opinions.

Not being consistent is what is keeping many good Christians from embracing the Sabbath.

Consistency is quite absent when the trumpets are put in the future.

1. If one insists on absolute consecutive prophetic writing and ignores the continual movement of scenes in heaven that run parallel to scenes on earth.
indeed a person will come up with erroneous doctrine if one refuses to acknowledge that this is the case.
Revelation repeats, just like Daniel repeats, going over the same time with different emphases to enlarge and bring out different points.

2. Much is lost concerning the "last days" when all the trumpets are shifted into the future after the censer is thrown down and probation closes. Indeed it makes the trumpets a great field of speculation.

3. The first six trumpets all sounded before "the time of the end" before 1844.
It is after the sixth trumpet that the angel announces there is no more time. (The timelines have ended)

4. The two chapters after the sixth trumpet and before the seventh trumpet, depict the end of the 1260 years and the end of the 2300 years.
We find there the great disappoint, the rise of the church that must "prophecy again" as well as the two witnesses released from their 1260 year sack cloth experience. These are depicted just before the seventh trumpet.

5. The seventh trumpet began to sound in 1844. We are living in it's time right now. It is the time when Christ is finishing the work of salvation in the heavenly temple. And leads us into eternity.

6. In the seventh trumpet the ark of the testament (the MOST HOLY PLACE) is brought to our attention -- Christ's ministry in the Most Holy Place --- it's the time to judge the dead,



7. The thunder, lightening and voices occur:
a. after Christ throws down the censer in chapter eight
b. at the end of the seventh trumpet in chapter eleven
--- indicating Christ throws down the censer when His work in the Most Holy is completed at the end of the seventh trumpet. .

Repeats? Could you show how what you just said does not fit in with the following?

it indicates "the seven angels who had the seven trumpets" prepared to sound after the censer/fire was thrown to the earth.

Rev 8:2 Seven angels with seven trumpets stand before God.
8:5 Censer/fire thrown down.
8:6 Seven angels with seven trumpets prepared to sound.
8:7 First angel sounded.

Do you suggest that by some unusually odd construct that those verses are not in order?
How does "repeating" even possibly play a role here?

Let me "repeat": the First angel sounded (8:7) after the Censer/fire thrown down (8:5).

Can you show that to be true from Rev 8:2-8:7?

Revelation 8:2

The angels are given their trumpets
The Angel, Who wasn't really an angel, but Christ Himself, was given much incense which He offers at the altar of incense.

John then continues with the heavenly narrative depicting Christ's work in the Holy Place, then He places the coals in the golden censer (something earthly priests always did as they prepared to go into the Most Holy Place. Finally He comes out and the censor is cast down. (Which, according to history, the priest did when he came forth from the sanctuary.)

John then goes BACK to those angels who were given trumpets at the beginning of the narrative, and gives us details about them.

The first six take place while Christ is in the Holy Place.
Why do I say that??
Well, after the sixth -- chapters 10 and 11 deal with events taking place AT THE END of the time lines. The time when Jesus entered the Most Holy.
The SEVENTH Trumpet -- the day of atonement --
Study Revelation 10 to 11 along with Daniel 7 - 8

So you're saying that just after John starts this next vision in Rev 8:2, (7 angels, 7 trumpets), there is a break and he goes FORWARD with verses 3,4,5, then goes BACK at verse 6?

Interesting idea. Can you give scriptural support?

Yes, it's the way Revelation is written.
Showing one side then going back and showing another side.

Another example -- Revelation 20

What happens after the thousand years are over?
First we see the focus on Satan -- what he does and what happens to him.


20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.....
20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.
20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone

Then it goes back and focuses on God -- what He does and how He deals with the situation.

20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.



Now the question --
WHEN does the fire that destroys Satan and all who are not found in the book of life take place?

Before (vs 10) or after (vs 14,15) the great white throne judgment?

Have you read what the SDA commentary says on Rev 8:2-5?

Here's something Ellen White said:

Yes, when the censer is thrown down and the proclamation "IT IS DONE" is spoken-- probation has closed.

Scripture says this proclamation takes place during the seventh plague:

Rev. 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake,
16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven,

That phrase is repeated three times in Revelation -- the voices, thunders, lightnings and earthquake,
And every time it's at the END -- not at the beginning.

At the end of Christ's ministry:
Rev. 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast [it] into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

At the end of the seventh trumpet:
Rev. 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded (19)and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


At the end of the seventh plague 16:17-18,21 (See first quoted text)

Ok, I agree. So what is your objection?

But proclamation and throwing things down are not mutually exclusive, no?

At the end of Christ's ministry where?
Most Holy.
Christ's ministry on behalf of sinners.

Are not trumpets and plagues the same?
That's why the same phrases.

Do you say the plagues happen before probation closes?
Is that before or after the battle of Armageddon? Is Armageddon before the second coming?
What about the statements to the contrary that say the plagues cannot fall until the saints are sealed?


We need to study the pouring out of the seventh vial. The powers of evil will not yield up the conflict without a struggle. But Providence has a part to act in the battle of Armageddon. When the earth is lighted with the glory of the angel of Revelation eighteen, the religious elements, good and evil, will awake from slumber, and the armies of the living God will take the field. {Mar 257.2}
Four mighty angels hold back the powers of this earth till the servants of God are sealed in their foreheads. The nations of the world are eager for conflict; but they are held in check by the angels. When this restraining power is removed, there will come a time of trouble and anguish. Deadly instruments of warfare will be invented. Vessels, with their living cargo, will be entombed in the great deep. All who have not the spirit of truth will unite under the leadership of satanic agencies. But they are to be kept under control till the time shall come for the great battle of Armageddon. {Mar 257.3}
Every form of evil is to spring into intense activity. Evil angels unite their powers with evil men, and as they have been in constant conflict and attained an experience in the best modes of deception and battle, and have been strengthening for centuries, they will not yield the last great final contest without a desperate struggle. All the world will be on one side or the other of the question. The battle of Armageddon will be fought, and that day must find none of us sleeping. Wide awake we must be, as wise virgins having oil in our vessels with our lamps. . . . {Mar 257.4}
The power of the Holy Ghost must be upon us, and the Captain of the Lord's host will stand at the head of the angels of heaven to direct the battle. Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. Scenes of stupendous interest are right upon us. {Mar 257.5}


The angel, the mighty angel from heaven, is to lighten the earth with his glory, while he cries mightily with a loud voice, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen" (Revelation 18:2). Oh, how I wish the church to arise and shine because the glory of the Lord has risen upon her. What can we not do in God if every human agency is doing its very utmost! "Without Me ye can do nothing" (John 15:5). We would lose faith and courage in the conflict if we were not sustained by the power of God. Every form of evil is to spring into intense activity. Evil angels unite their powers with evil men, and as they have been in constant conflict and attained an experience in the best modes of deception and battle, and have been strengthening for centuries, they will not yield the last great final contest without a desperate struggle. All the world will be on one side or the other of the question. The battle of Armageddon will be fought, and that day must find none of us sleeping. Wide-awake we must be, as wise virgins having oil in our vessels with our lamps. What is this? Grace, Grace. {1888 761.3}
The power of the Holy Ghost must be upon us, and the Captain of the Lord's host will stand at the head of the angels of heaven to direct the battle. Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. {1888 762.1}


The battle of Armageddon will be fought. And that day must find none of us sleeping. Wide awake we must be, as wise virgins having oil in our vessels with our lamps. The power of the Holy Ghost must be upon us and the Captain of the Lord's host will stand at the head of the angels of heaven to direct the battle. Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded; vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. Scenes of stupendous interest are right upon us and these things will be sure indications of the presence of Him who has directed in every aggressive movement, who has accompanied the march of His cause through all the ages, and who has graciously pledged Himself to be with His people in all their conflicts to the end of the world. He will vindicate His truth. He will cause it to triumph. He is ready to supply His faithful ones with motives and power of purpose, inspiring them with hope and courage and valor in increased activity as the time is at hand. {3SM 426.1}

Are not trumpets and plagues the same?

No.


They end at the same time, but do not begin at the same time.

Those statements do not say
the seven trumpets will sound.

Remember Jericho --
seven days, each day trumpets sounded.
Example of the historical seven trumpets.
The seventh day all the trumpets sounded , in seven fold intensity.
The seven trumpets of history -- all blasting
In the end all the forces that were battling through history will arise in terrible intensity.

Well, we are certainly seeing the winds being let go, so we are close to the sealing.

THOSE WORDS SURE FIT OUR TIME!!!!

""The time of trouble has commenced, it is begun. The reason why the four winds have not let go, is because the saints are not all sealed."

Yes, now, in 2020, it definitely seems like the time of trouble has commenced. Yet the winds haven't been fully released yet -- we hear them loudly roaring with great force, about to fully break lose

-- Pray that each one is taking the sealing very serious for probation time is running out.
Cling to Jesus, walk with HIM in faith and obedience, every day, every hour. He will never leave those who walk with Him, following the Lamb where ever He leads.


---

Good to see you back, Rick.

Why is it that I can't find "The time of trouble has commenced" anywhere in the writings of EGW?

I did find the following in her writings that are dated later, as in 1882, which is much later than that 1848 date in Rick's post:

The statement was posted in the Opening Post --with this explanation

These statements are found in Joseph Bates' tract, "A Seal of the Living God, A Hundred Forty-four Thousand of the Servants of God Sealed", pp. 24-26, 32.

The statements are made (spoken) by Ellen White while in vision, written down by Joseph Bates.

Here's some of the context:

I find it strange that EGW didn't write it down herself like she did with her other visions.

Has anybody asked the EGW Estate about this vision?

I don't think the White Estate has a problem with it --

They published some of this in a book called "The Publishing Ministry" (1983) which is a compilation of EGW's writings on the publishing work.

Below --
Capital letters = what the White Estate put into the book.
Blue = Bates' words
Green = James White's words
Purple and small letters = Ellen White's written words

Chap. 1 - Dorchester Vision of 1848 and Our First Publishing Ventures

The Dorchester Vision of 1848. [FOLLOWING THEIR RETURN FROM WESTERN NEW YORK IN SEPTEMBER, 1848, ELDER AND MRS. WHITE JOURNEYED TO MAINE, WHERE THEY HELD A MEETING WITH THE BELIEVERS, OCTOBER 20-22. THIS WAS THE TOPSHAM CONFERENCE, WHERE THE BRETHREN BEGAN PRAYING THAT A WAY MIGHT BE OPENED FOR PUBLISHING THE TRUTHS CONNECTED WITH THE ADVENT MESSAGE.

A MONTH LATER THEY WERE WITH "A SMALL COMPANY OF BRETHREN AND SISTERS," WRITES JOSEPH BATES IN HIS PAMPHLET ON "THE SEALING MESSAGE," "ASSEMBLED IN MEETING IN DORCHESTER, NEAR BOSTON, MASS." "BEFORE THE MEETING COMMENCED," HE CONTINUES, "SOME OF US WERE EXAMINING SOME OF THE POINTS IN THE SEALING MESSAGE; SOME DIFFERENCE OF OPINION EXISTED ABOUT THE CORRECTNESS OF THE VIEW OF THE WORD 'ASCENDING' [SEE REVELATION 7:2], ETC."

ELDER JAMES WHITE, IN. . . GIVING HIS ACCOUNT OF THIS MEETING, WRITES: "WE ALL FELT LIKE UNITING TO ASK WISDOM FROM GOD ON THE POINTS IN DISPUTE; ALSO BROTHER BATES'S DUTY IN WRITING. WE HAD AN EXCEEDINGLY POWERFUL MEETING. ELLEN WAS AGAIN TAKEN OFF IN VISION. SHE THEN BEGAN TO DESCRIBE THE SABBATH LIGHT, WHICH WAS THE SEALING TRUTH. SAID SHE; 'IT AROSE FROM THE RISING OF THE SUN. IT AROSE BACK THERE IN WEAKNESS, BUT LIGHT AFTER LIGHT HAS SHONE UPON IT UNTIL THE SABBATH TRUTH IS CLEAR, WEIGHTY, AND MIGHTY. LIKE THE SUN WHEN IT FIRST RISES, ITS RAYS ARE COLD, BUT AS IT COMES UP, ITS RAYS ARE WARMING AND POWERFUL; SO THE LIGHT AND POWER HAS INCREASED MORE AND MORE UNTIL ITS RAYS ARE POWERFUL, SANCTIFYING THE SOUL; BUT, UNLIKE THE SUN, IT WILL NEVER SET. THE SABBATH LIGHT WILL BE AT ITS BRIGHTEST WHEN THE SAINTS ARE IMMORTAL; IT WILL RISE HIGHER AND HIGHER UNTIL IMMORTALITY COMES.'

"SHE SAW MANY INTERESTING THINGS ABOUT THIS GLORIOUS SEALING SABBATH, WHICH I HAVE NOT TIME OR SPACE TO RECORD. SHE TOLD BROTHER BATES TO WRITE THE THINGS HE HAD SEEN AND HEARD, AND THE BLESSING OF GOD WOULD ATTEND IT."
IT WAS AFTER THIS VISION THAT MRS. WHITE INFORMED HER HUSBAND OF HIS DUTY TO PUBLISH, AND THAT AS HE SHOULD ADVANCE BY FAITH, SUCCESS WOULD ATTEND HIS EFFORTS.--LS 116, FOOTNOTE.

REGARDING THIS VISION OF NOVEMBER 18, 1848, ELDER JOSEPH BATES TESTIFIED THAT HE SAW AND HEARD THE FOLLOWING FROM THE LIPS OF ELLEN HARMON:
"'YEA, PUBLISH THE THINGS THOU HAST SEEN AND HEARD, AND THE BLESSING OF GOD WILL ATTEND. LOOK YE! THAT RISING IS IN STRENGTH, AND GROWS BRIGHTER AND BRIGHTER!' . . . THE ABOVE WAS COPIED WORD FOR WORD AS SHE SPAKE IN VISION, THEREFORE IT'S UNADULTERATED."--A SEAL OF THE LIVING GOD (SEVENTY-TWO-PAGE PAMPHLET PUBLISHED BY JOSEPH BATES IN 1849), P. 26.]

--At a meeting held in Dorchester, Mass., November, 1848, I had been given a view of the proclamation of the sealing message, and of the duty of the brethren to publish the light that was shining upon our pathway.

16 {PM 15.1}
After coming out of vision, I said to my husband; I have a message for you. You must begin to print a little paper and send it out to the people. Let it be small at first; but as the people read, they will send you means with which to print, and it will be a success from the first. From this small beginning it was shown to me to be like streams of light that went clear round the world." {PM 16.1}

The problem, I think is the wording "the time of trouble has commenced".

This vision is NOT about the prophetic time of trouble so much as it is about the SABBATH and publishing the message of the Sabbath as the seal of God.

As the Sabbath truth rises in power from weakness to strength,
so trouble (as I understand what she is saying) rises to ever greater opposition against it.

She is clear the four winds (which she in other places combines with the GREAT time of trouble) have not yet been released, so I'm pretty sure she did NOT mean the "great time of trouble" had started.
She clearly says the persecution when neighbor turns against neighbor "has not yet come".

But the trouble that comes against those proclaiming the Sabbath truth had begun, in that they would met opposition and this opposition would intensive in power, force and ultimate persecution, and not cease till Christ comes.