Martial Arts And Christian Living

Hello Durk

I tend to agree with Linda on this one. I took some training in Shotokan Karate; and I can say from day one; there was a major emphasis on three things: 1)Character Development, 2) Physical Fitness, 3) How To "Defend" Yourself.

They most definitely base their philosophy and practice on ancient, eastern religion; but in simple, layman's terms, after all the fancy talk is over, the above three items I mentioned are all centred around one thing: How To Kill or Seriously Injure Someone, In A Prescribed Way.

I know Christians who justify their involvement in it because it does whip you into good physical shape; but for me, the end came when I had walked into the room one night; and the instructor, along with some of his cronies were glaring at me; and the situation appeared a bit menacing to say the least.

Why? I had failed to bow down to the instructor (a sign of respect), and when I said I wouldn't do it; he used his character development training to not knock my head off: Asking me to leave instead.

The interesting part is that I wasn't even a Christian then!

I believe that seriously committed Christians are involved with martial arts; but that doesn't necessarily make it a good thing to be involved with. There are BETTER ways, in the Bible, to accomplish the above three goals!

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"We are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets; Jesus Christ Himself being the Chief Cornerstone!" (Eph.2:20).

Your brother in Christ

David T. Battler

In my experience, having lived in the Far East, bowing is a form of respect and does not neccessarily imply worship.

I have studied in 3 different schools in three disciplines and in all three the instructors have stressed that the first reaction to any situation is to RUN, WALK AWAY, or in some other way AVOID FIGHTING. Fighting is a last resort because everyone loses. Now, I know, each school is different, each emphasises a different aspect, and we cannot make a blanket statement about any of the forms, disciplines, or schools. But this has been my experience.

No doubt or arguement about it, these "arts" are designed to kill, maim, and control. But they also strive to teach self control, and the avoidance of violence. Yes, there is a better way in the Bible, but remember that these arts arose from a pagan background; you must expect such things as self being the focus, power of the chi, etc. But we don't live in a perfect world. A police officer or even a teacher is expected to provide a safe environment, which cannot always be achieved by Bible study and prayer. And I am not mocking these. These people may also be Christians in every sense of the word, while at the same time applying an arm bar to an unruly student or escaping from a full-nelson applied by a drunk.

Just some thoughts.

[This message has been edited by Durk (edited December 08, 2000).]

I grew up in Korea and I never thought the martial arts were involved with heathen religion. In fact, when I was in high school I wanted to take the lesson. My father told me no, not because of relgious reason, but because I was still in high school and my primary goal as a student was to study. Elder Vasques in his New Ager book calls all martial arts are involved with spritism, he aslo states that accupucture, accupressure, etc are involved with new age movement. I seriousely doubt these therapy is involved with worship of spirit unless one carries that far. When I was in Korea I had some treatment done with accupucture, and I know a MD here who learned to do accupucture but no way he is involved with "new Age". When I was in Korea we never gave a thought including all adventists above these mentioned including martial arts were involved with any type of heathen religion. I guess I was ignorant or we never gave a thought on the matter as we were part of the society.
As far as bowing down to some one is concerned, this is no way connected with worshiping any person. This is an expression of respect of that person. When I meet my father's friend on the street or any place else I must bow to him. We do not extend our hands to shake. In fact, this type of greeting was considered as unacceptable form of greetings or down right disrespectable form in my time in Korea many years ago. Bowing down in some degree is still practiced in Korean society here and over there. This is the custom, just like shaking hands or giving hugs. When one is ignorant of other culture all kinds of misunderstanding can happen.

Won

Obviously no doubt about it, martial arts in all forms is designed to allow the one who knows the arts to defend themselves against physical agression.

Personally, I would love to know how to prevent someone form hurting a weaker person, as in, I see someone banging up a women. HOWEVER, I believe there are better ways than involving myself in years and years of training.

Another thing is, I believe they teach you self defense first, not self offense. Am I correct?

I've had friends who were Adventist and who learned Karate to the point of being black belts. For them, it was excellent exercise and they were able to learn the fundamentals without being involved in the religious aspects.

The body is an amazing thing, and the ability to defend against attack (especially if you live in a dangerous area) is very good to know, not just because you may have to use it, but because you know you have the capacity to use it and not be a victim.

I really wish I had learned it as a kid, but like Won, my parents told me that there wasn't enough time to do that and do my schoolwork, etc.

The benefits of learning it are self-control, confidence, and respect. The people I know who have achieved great levels in the martial arts have never been involved in fights because they have learned to control themselves under pressure.

Paul

quote:

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Originally posted by Paul Beach:
The benefits of learning it are self-control, confidence, and respect. The people I know who have achieved great levels in the martial arts have never been involved in fights because they have learned to control themselves under pressure.

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If their self-control was gained through the martial arts, what room has that left for Jesus Christ?

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Even so come, Lord Jesus
Linda

Martial arts has a purpose - what is it?
The Gospel has a purpose - what is it?

Paul was often attached but would not resort to self defense, why?

2 Corinthians 10:
1 ¶ Now I Paul myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in presence am base among you, but being absent am bold toward you:
2 But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds ; )
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Jesus weapons in His epic battle with Satan were not physical weapons, why?

Matthew 4:
1 ¶ Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

Abram’s (Abraham’s) battle was against flesh & blood & used physical weapons, what was the purpose of the battle ? Had Abram & his servants been training for war long?
Genesis 14:
12 And they took Lot, Abram's brother's son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.
13 ¶ And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.
14 And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.
15 And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus.
16 And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.
17 ¶ And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale.
18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
21 ¶ And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself.
22 And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,
23 That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:
24 Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.

Notice the progression as human history draws ever closer to the Second Coming. Can Martial Arts be called spiritual or carnal weapons ? Or knives, or guns, or muscles and superior strength? Perhaps it would be self defeating for the mission, if martyers spin kicked their opponents or broke their jaws or power bombed them with a well placed wrestling move ? Jesus at His trial possessed the power to “nuke” everyone and everything into instant submission - but didn’t.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Matthew 26:
48 Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.
49 And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him.
51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
55 In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.
56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.
57 ¶ And they that had laid hold on Jesus led him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled.

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Edward F Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F Sutton (edited December 10, 2000).]

I think that some are making the assumption that those of us who study the martial arts are doing it to learn how to defend ourselves. While this is part of the reason, for me, at least, and many who I train with, a bigger reason is is not defending OURSELVES but defending OTHERS. I don't particularly care if you call me names or harrase me in some way. I have enough self-confidence and/or understanding of who I am not to be bothered by your (not you, personally ) petty annoyances. It is the fat kid being bullied, or the old man getting harassed, or the woman with three little kids who gets her purse snatched who we are mostly concerned with. So you chase the purse snatcher. what are you going to do when you catch him? And then he pulls a knife. This is not a perfect world. I like to think it is a little safer because I'm here.

I have never studied the martial arts, although I have considered it on occasion. There is an interesting discussion going on here, although I haven't quite been able to absorb all the posted material yet.

Let me ask a question of those of you who study the martial arts. Do you seek out a teacher who can show you the moves without the history or religion behind those moves? Do you use it to gain strength against someone or for physical exercise. If for physical exercise, is there not another method that would not tempt "fate" by engaging in an activity known to have, at the very least, originated in pagan worship or activity?

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Sarah Moss
*Prayer Changes Things!*

I have begun a topic in the Natural Remedies forum about Chinese Medicine which I would suggest that those who are reading here also read. The origins of both Chinese medicine and the martial arts are the same, and are closely tied together. The information there should be helpful to your understanding. Go to http://www.maritime-sda-online.org/ubb/Forum49/HTML/000022.html

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Even so come, Lord Jesus
Linda

Quite a bit has been posted about the pagan origins of the martial arts, and I'd like to make just two comments regarding this. First, I think the origins are of less importance than what the thing means to us now. Second, if you examine it, you'll probably find that most of what we do today has pagan origins. (Christmas, Easter, Passover...) Even our Olympic games started in pagan Greece. So, outside of tilling the soil, pretty much all activities have pagan origins.

(Of course, if we really want to discuss this, we'll have to define "pagan origins" and all the other terms we're using, but I don't think that is the purpose of this thread.)

[This message has been edited by Durk (edited December 12, 2000).]

You have a good point Durk. Are there then things in our lives that do good even when begun in evil? It is a question to ponder. Perhaps there are many things in our lives that we ought to be reconsidering!

Back to martial arts though, I understand you may have some experience in this area, what are your suggestions/experiences and what have you learned from the martial arts that uplift you and bring you closer to God?

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Sarah Moss
*Prayer Changes Things!*

Durk and Won

If you check my post above, re the concern about bowing down to the instructor upon entering the "dojo," you will not find any reference to my associating this with any kind of worship. I have always bristled at having to bow down to any other person for any reason. I understand the point that you make about "culture," but we are living in Canada...a different culture than the east; and what we beleive must also be respected.

There are some dojos/instructors that do respect this kind of thing.

To help explain better what I am saying I will relate some more personal experience.

I have worked in several types of maximum secur security psychiatric settings. Some patients were so violent that they had to be restrained by both wrists and ankles, in addition to being strapped into a chair; PLUS, in some severe cases, chemical restraints were used.

It was a big "no no" to go beyond a certain part of the hallway without atleast one other staff member with you.

Do you know the legal implications were I to use any of the martial arts or other "fighting" techniques I have picked up along the way on one of these violent patients?

We were taught some really effective ways to deal with violent people that mostly involved verbal and body language things that worked in most confrontations; and when something physical was required it was never necessary to exchange blows of anykind.

One time I walked onto a regular nursing unit I was working on; and a nurse was lying on the floor. She had just been "sucker-punched" in the stomach by an Alzheimer's patient who suddenly became aggressive. All the other staff were standing there petrified; scared to make a move to help the fallen nurse...They didn't want to tangle with this guy because he was really big, and very strong.

Not even the male staff would go near him. I knew I only had a minute or two to do something; so I carefully approached the patient; and in less than five minutes, him and I walked down the hall, arm in arm, and I secured him in his room. Everyone was incredulous, to say the least.

I have studied and thought a lot about all this self defence stuff; and parts of my "macho man psyche" says it would be great to be a martial arts expert; but as I consider how Jesus Himself approached violent people; I am encouraged, and relieved that I don't have to go to all that training and rigor to defend myself and others.

In particular; I think you would find it really interesting to study two specific experiences that Jesus had with violent people. One, was in Mark, chapt.5, where the violent demoniacs came running at Jesus and His disciples, and the other experience was with the violent mob that came to take Him away to be tried and crucified. What I have learned from these two experiences of Jesus has helped me immensely in the above two nursing situations; and many other violent confrontations that have ocurred in my life.

What do you suppose I may have learned and practiced from Jesus; that I would never get in a martial arts class?

Do some people need martial arts? Is the world really safer because of martial arts? Perhaps certain police, security, and similar personell should be trained a bit in that direction; but I like to think that the world is safer because of Jesus.

I will post more later.

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Soul winning is soul loving.
see 1 Thes.5:14-15).

Your brother in Christ

David T. Battler

(Hi David , I just fixed a typo for you. Sarah)

[This message has been edited by Mrs Sarah Moss (edited December 29, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by DavidTBattler (edited January 02, 2001).]

I guess in my opinion it seems that which army you enlist in is the type of martial (military) arts you learn. The Dojo is one facet of one army & Christ is the other.

A famous bodybuilder Bill Pearl, once was in a bar. There having a dance with his girlfriend. A multi black belt seeing his physique and being intoxicated tried the macho methods of one ups man ship using martial arts and abusive language.

Bill kept telling him to stop and leave him alone. Bill did not bodybuild to build fighting skills, but that what martial arts are - fighting skills.

Bill kept trying to move away but kept getting followed. At last it had to be settled physically. One punch later Bill settled it and left the establishment. Bill was not a christian he could only use what he had.

Bill's strength and reflexes and physical toughness were prodigeous. Bill was the only body builder with the potential to defeat Arnold in competition, his muscles were not just there for looks.

A person can be a force of protection for others without learning the mental/spiritual/physical diciplines of physical combat.

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Edward F Sutton

Kindness and caring go a long way towards calming angry people.

I have considered taking a self-protection type of class, but find that I am at ease and calm when outside by myself because I am never alone, and God will protect me as long as I walk with Him - and believe me, I don't go anywhere (especially at night) without asking Him to walk with me.

I'd have to agree that we spend our time more wisely preparing ourselves for His Kingdom than preparing ourselves to protect ourselves from this one.

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Sarah Moss
*Prayer Changes Things!*

Edward

I'm having a little trouble understanding your post, or at least your position. On the one hand you lambast the martial arts as being violent, glorifying the individual, and relying on self, yet on the other hand you praise Bill Pearl as "the only body builder with the potential to defeat Arnold in competition". Both activities have the same root; self-reliance. The bodybuilder's god is his or her body.

Second, if MY "strength and reflexes and physical toughness were prodigeous" I wouldn't study the martial arts, either!

My point was that being able to defend your self or others could be done without martial arts training.

Body building/ strength training is not based on combat/violence but could easily be used for that just like martial arts. I agree with you self reliance is not the best motives to live by and focus your life on. However looking & feeling better is a nice spin off from non compedative bodybuilding.

However you are very right, such activity can easily become an idol. Even though both offer alot of physical conditioning. (At nearly 50 & sedentary I could use some. how'd I get this old the last thing I remember I was seventeen & strong in the extreem. 30+yr TIA maybe?)

It is very easy for me as a human to love & defend the things I like & comedown on what I am not interested in just out of personal likes and dislikes. Maturation for myself and any body is to grow beyond it for the persuit of revealed inspired truth inspite of personal preferences.

The bone is thick sometimes, but it's dawning on me that you like martial arts & it's obvious that I like bodybuilding & strength training. Just like each other we defend what we like, and have reservations about what we don't like. (sorta like buttermilk spread on cucumbers being introduced to a vegan enclave.)

Epiffiny -city-, OK --- now I can relate to you better. But don't expect Ed doing breathing excercises at 05:00 and I won't expect Durk shown on TV from Malta in the "strongest" contests. But now I can relate to Durk better.

A digression:
Are you into tech stuff ? If so jump on over to the Tools & Technology Forum. Hope to see you there if you are into tech stuff.

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Edward F Sutton

quote:

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Originally posted by Mrs Sarah Moss:
Kindness and caring go a long way towards calming angry people.

I have considered taking a self-protection type of class, but find that I am at ease and calm when outside by myself because I am never alone, and God will protect me as long as I walk with Him - and believe me, I don't go anywhere (especially at night) without asking Him to walk with me.

I'd have to agree that we spend our time more wisely preparing ourselves for His Kingdom than preparing ourselves to protect ourselves from this one.

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I'm with you Sarah! So long as I leave myself in God's hands, He will take care of me. I have no business taking time away from doing what He calls me to do, to spend my time on taking care of the things He has promised to take care of.

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The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.