I need advice...
Posted By: Sarah Moss
I need advice... - 09/04/03 04:39 PM
I am in a dilemma of sorts. Two years ago our church began a Pathfinder club, under my leadership. This year, as I am expecting my first child, the club is under new leadership. I fought for the right to remain on staff at the time of nomination and won, however, having been pregnant for the past 5.5 months, I realize that I don't actually have the energy to do much beyond what needs to be done at work and at home. In addition, they have changed the meeting day from a weekday to Sabbath, and I have a conflict about Pathfinders meeting on Sabbath on both a personal and a spiritual level. (I truly believe our youth/children need a source for Christian fellowship outside of Sabbath.) On a personal level, that is the day my husband and I truly rest from the world and from work. It is the one day a week that the computer gets turned off, the world is excluded and we rejuvenate our relationships with God, each other and occasionally other friends.
My problem is that the Pathfinder club has been my passion for two years and still is. There is a spot in my heart for those kids that is held just for them. How can I balance my needs and my family needs with my passion to work with the Pathfinders? I honestly cannot see myself being of much use should I decide to be a Pathfinder Counsellor, but I feel as though I would be letting down the new director and the club if I do not help out.
Your 2 cents worth would be appreciated as soon as possible! Thank you
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: I need advice... - 09/05/03 06:14 AM
Prayer! Your continued prayers are and will continue to make a difference in your necessary absence! Maintain your connection to the kids in other ways - phone them at home and encourage them to walk closer with Jesus, greet them enthusiastically at church, send them cards in the mail, email them, etc....
Posted By: Darius
Re: I need advice... - 09/04/03 07:57 PM
To add to what Mike said, I am hoping that there is no rule against a Counselor meeting with her wards outside of regular club meetings.
Posted By: Bnd4glree
Re: I need advice... - 09/05/03 07:50 AM
As Dr. Laura would say - "Your first obligation is to your family." And after that is taken care of, then feel free to follow what Brother Mike mentioned. And I second your concern with Sabbath as a meeting time for Pathfinders.
Posted By: Sarah Moss
Re: I need advice... - 09/10/03 06:46 AM
Thank you all for your advice and words of encouragement. As I said before, this is not an easy decision for me, but one that must be made.
It is true that just because I am not there every week, that doesn't mean that I cannot be involved in their lives in another way, so I intend to do just that. After two years, there is a bond there that cannot be easily broken anyway.
Thank you.
Posted By: Durk
Re: I need advice... - 09/12/03 02:46 AM
Two things flagged me about that first post. One, the phrase "I fought for the right" and two, the phrase "I have a conflict about Pathfinders meeting on Sabbath on both a personal and a spiritual level".
Here are my questions:
1. In a volunteer position within an independent, church based organization, do we have any "rights" at all. If so, what are they?
2. What, exactly, is the nature of your conflict with having Pathfinders on Sabbath? (ie: why is that a problem.)
Posted By: Daryl
Re: I need advice... - 09/12/03 05:22 AM
Let me take a stab at answering Durk's questions.
#1 - Sarah said she fought for the right and won that right apparently by convincing the Nominating Committee.
#2 -
quote:
Posted by Sarah:
I have a conflict about Pathfinders meeting on Sabbath on both a personal and a spiritual level. (I truly believe our youth/children need a source for Christian fellowship outside of Sabbath.) On a personal level, that is the day my husband and I truly rest from the world and from work. It is the one day a week that the computer gets turned off, the world is excluded and we rejuvenate our relationships with God, each other and occasionally other friends.
I believe Sarah had already answered the 2nd question from what I bolded above in Sarah's post.
From once being involved with Pathfinders myself as a leader, we did activities during a week night that we couldn't have done during the hours of the Sabbath, therefore, I agree with what Sarah said in relation to Pathfinders being held on the Sabbath.
Posted By: Sarah Moss
Re: I need advice... - 09/12/03 05:31 PM
Durk, re: Question 2: As Daryl pointed out, the issues I have with Pathfinders on Sabbath are summarized by the statements I made in my first post. To extend on that, our children and youth deserve to be given a break from wordly pressures and have a time of fellowship with other Christians in the midst of the week - just like adults do when they come to prayer meeting. As Pathfinders previously ran on the same night as prayer meeting, it was intended to help encourage attendance at both meetings for both age groups. I also feel that much of the preparation for Pathfinders can cause the leaders to break the Sabbath rest in order to be ready for the meetings. As Daryl also pointed out, some of what happens at Pathfinders is not necessarily of a spiritual nature, and therefore you are limited in what honours, etc. you can teach prior to sunset, and I believe that can encourage an attitude of "I can hardly wait for Sabbath to end so we can get on to these other things". It also means that if you cannot accomplish what you want/need to on Sabbath/Saturday evening, you have to reschedule another date during the week or on Sunday to do it. If you go camping, you lose one week of preparation time for the trip (especially when your trip is planned very close to the beginning of the year). And there are other reasons, but I think the above illustrates my objections a little more in detail.
As to question no. 1, I believe we do have "rights" (although that may be the wrong word) when we are doing the Lord's work. If God has called you to do something, you have the obligation to fight for the right to do it if there are people trying to get in the way of your being able to accomplish His plans. When you beileve God has given you passion, talent and gifts to do a job, it is your responsibility to follow up and plead for the chance to do that job. When people start making decisions about your life (not about your ability to do the job) without consulting you, I believe you need to fight to correct the situation.
Posted By: Durk
Re: I need advice... - 09/13/03 06:12 AM
Regarding responses to question two, they strike me more as offending your personal Sabbath observance traditions rather than legitimate arguments against holding Pathfinders on Sabbath. Basically it comes down to the fact that this is not the way YOU want to spend Sabbath. And there is nothing wrong with that, don't get me wrong. You can do anything you want. You can hold any beliefs you want.
To me the problem with the above is this: when the church as a whole has decided to have Pathfinders on Sabbath (or any other decision someone may object to) and someone ceases to participate because they have a doctrinal objection to the decision, they essentially place their authority above that of the church. (Whether or not THAT is a problem is also open to discussion.
![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
)
The real bottom line question here is WHO WIELDS AUTHORITY??
Point number one. (which is actually question #2) IMNSHO, you have as many rights as the church wants to give you, in the areas they decide. (see bottom-line-question above.) And if you have a problem with
"When people start making decisions about your life (not about your ability to do the job) without consulting you,." then you need to immediately distance yourself as far as possible from...well, let's just say "social organizations".
What does any of this have to do with your dilemma? Let's get right to the point. You're fighting a losing battle. Go do something else and enjoy the three-score and ten that the Lord gave you; it's all you've got.
Posted By: Avalee
Re: I need advice... - 09/14/03 03:53 AM
Sara I can just imagine what a hard decision it must be for you to make. However I do believe like the others have said you can still keep in touch with them at other times. You and most of the others are very correct in that Pathfinders should not be held on Sabbath. You and Daryl gave some excellent reasons why they should not.
With the love and passion you have for Pathfinders I know with prayer and letting God lead you will find a way that will work for you and your family.
Just a side note: Just because the whole church passes a certain thing does not mean that what has been passed is right. If what has been passed is not right and a person decides not to participate in this then Praise God they are standing for what it right and not just blindly following after what the church has all agreed to do. Our only authority comes from what God tells us to do. We should of course follow what the church has set down, as long as it correct. We do know that before it is all over that the majority of the world will be against us. Who knows that maybe some of us will have to be tested on deciding to obey God or obey what the "church" says.
Isaiah 8:20
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Posted By: Durk
Re: I need advice... - 09/16/03 07:45 AM
Avalee, that's really a frightening concept, since Charles Manson, Son of Sam, David Koresh, the Reverend Jimmy Jones, and a host of other n'er-do-wells also claimed "Our only authority comes from what God tells us to do." And as far as "as long as it is correct", who deterimnes "correctness"? Who "interprets" the Voice of God, or the Word of God, to you? (Even your reading of Scripture is tainted by the translators particular theological bent and "traditional" understandings of what a text meant or should mean.)
You see, I also claim MY only authority comes from what God tells ME to do, and I reject the church "interpreting" God's Word to me. Now, I don't quite view myself in the above catagory (though others might
) and I think that what makes the difference is that I am willing to alter (or at least examine) my beliefs, if 1) shown from Scripture with 2) a reasonable explantion.
So, the question remains, Who weilds authority?
Posted By: Avalee
Re: I need advice... - 09/16/03 07:10 PM
Durk I know that Sarah is not a Charles Manson so that is being very silly. The scriptures tell us to obey authority unless it goes against what God says...I do not think Sarah choosing to keep the Sabbath the way God intends is making her be like a charles manson or any other like that. We do really need to have some commen sence here. And these people were and are following Satan...by their fruits you shall know them.
Durk you can choose to do as you wish in this world...obey man or God. In the end that is what it will come down to. I pray that you will be able to know the difference. It will mean your eternal life.
Posted By: Durk
Re: I need advice... - 09/17/03 02:29 AM
Avalee, you completely missed the point, which is that if we all start claiming God as our only authority, pretty soon God's theology and our theology exactly coincide. We can do whatever we want, because God is our only authority. He spoke to me and told me thus and so. So where is the body or organization or entity that says, "No, God ACTUALLY means this, or that." Who has authority to interpret God's word?
By the way, in my experience, when people "pray for me", what they really want is for God to make me see things the way they do. So it's fine with me if you forego that little charade.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: I need advice... - 09/17/03 03:59 PM
Sarah's asking for advice was the appropriate thing to do, for even though God is our only and ultimate authority, God has also delegated authority to His body, the church, therefore, it is appropriate to seek advice from the members of His body, the church.
Posted By: Avalee
Re: I need advice... - 09/18/03 06:42 AM
I agree that we can seek advice and that God has given His authority to the church....
But only if they are right with the God and the Bible
quote:
God's Claims are First
God's Amazing Grace
Page 59
We ought to obey God rather than men. Acts 5:29
. . . . We are to recognize human government as an ordinance of divine appointment, and teach obedience to it as a sacred duty, within its legitimate sphere. But when its claims conflict with the claims of God, we must obey God rather than men. God's word must be recognized as above all human legislation. A "Thus saith the Lord" is not to be set aside for a "Thus saith the church" or a "Thus saith the state." The crown of Christ is to be lifted above the diadems of earthly potentates.
The above quote that God has given us through the Spirit of Prophecy is about how we are to obey God when they try to make us obey the Sunday Laws...but the principal is there for those who want to see it. Those who are truly searching and wanting to truly follow God in all He says will obey His word...and will also take council in what man or church has said..as long as it is from a "thus saith the Lord" Amen
We have council not only from the scriptures but from the Spririt of Prophecy that we are to obey God rather than man when man or church goes against what God has told us to do. This is very plain.
Durk I am so sorry you feel the way you do. If I have offended you I am sorry. ![[Heart]](graemlins/heart.gif)
However, I stand behind what I have written and what the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy say. We really need to have some common sense..we here are not talking about the nuts like the ones you mentioned above...Koresh and those...but who do we obey when it comes to what is
Posted By: Avalee
Re: I need advice... - 09/17/03 07:06 PM
quote:
Faith And Works
Page 78
You know how it is with the papal power. The people have no right to interpret the Scriptures for themselves. They must have someone else interpret the Scriptures for them. Have you no mind? Have you no reason? Has not God given judgment to the common people just as well as He has to the priests and rulers? When Christ, the Lord of life and glory, came to our world, if they had known Him, they never would have crucified Him. God had told them to search the Scriptures: "In them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of Me" (John 5:39).
God help us to be Bible students. Until you can see the reason for it yourself and a "thus saith the Lord" in the Scriptures, don't trust any living man to interpret the Bible for you.
And when you can see this, you know it for yourself, and know it to be the truth of God. You will say, "I have read it, I have seen it, and my own heart takes hold upon it, and it is the truth God has spoken to me from His Word." Now this is what we are to be--individual Christians. We need to have an individual, personal experience. We need to be converted, as did the Jews. If you see a little light, you are not to stand back and say, "I will wait until my brethren have seen it." If you do, you will go on in darkness. and say, "I will wait until my brethren have seen it." If you do, you will go on in darkness.
God help us to have a knowledge of the truth, and if you have seen the truth of God, press right to the light and put up the bars behind you. Make not flesh your arm; but have a living experience for yourselves, and then your countenance will shine with the glory of God. You have walked with Him, and He has upheld you. You have wrestled with Him and pleaded with Him, and He has let His light shine upon you.
God is so good to give us His Word to guide us in everything..Amen
Posted By: Sarah Moss
Re: I need advice... - 09/20/03 06:38 AM
It is not always easy to balance "thus says the Lord" and "thus say the church". Our authority has to come from God, and sometimes things are not always black and white. As to Pathfinders on Sabbath, this is not a decision that has come down from the church, or even the church board. It is a decision from one or two select persons. The church, vicariously, approves of the decision by not changing it.
I believe that when we need to make decisions, we must through prayer seek out the Bible, Spirit of Prophecy and sometimes the Christian advice of fellow believers.
Perhaps many of my motives for disliking Pathfinders on Sabbath are self-motivated, but not the most important. I truly believe that we deprive our children and youth when we confine all church activities and Christian gatherings to one day. We have Pathfinders who do not attend an Adventist academy. These are in public school, and who knows but that their only Christian fellowship, leadership or gathering (outside the family for most) is at Pathfinders? Where can they find spiritual refreshment during the midst of the week when the enemy has been surrounding them for 5-6 days out of 7? How can we convince children and youth that Christianity is to be lived 7 days a week when we can only find time for them on one day? It feels to me that the priorities are wrong when we cannot commit to a time for our children in the midst of the battle to refresh our souls.
It is wonderful to see children taking classes such as music, exercise, etc. during the week, but are those things more important than seeking God in the midst of the week? Do our priorities lie in the right places?
How much do we lose by isolating Christian activities and gatherings to the one Sabbath day - and making it so busy that we lose the rest and refreshment we are promised? Do our youth and children benefit from such programming? I fear not, and I know that I would not have.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: I need advice... - 09/19/03 09:13 PM
Avalee,
When I read your last two posts, this verse came to mind:
quote:
2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
What then does the above text mean? Shouldn't it also apply to the private interpretation of any other Bible verse?
Posted By: Daryl
Re: I need advice... - 09/19/03 09:15 PM
Sarah,
Then you have the right to have it taken to the Church Board for a decision there?
If there is a Sabbath observance, etc type of a concern, then that would be the direction I would have gone first.
Posted By: Wendy F
Re: I need advice... - 09/21/03 12:04 PM
Amen to your entire post Sarah! This is how I have always felt. The Sabbath can be caused to be a burden and this is wrong. It is to be a joy not a burden.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: I need advice... - 09/22/03 06:46 AM
Amen, Wendy!
![[Pray or Praying or Prayer]](graemlins/pray.gif)
Posted By: Sarah Moss
Re: I need advice... - 09/27/03 06:05 AM
I had not thought about putting it before the church board, but I probably should. I think what I will likely do is write a letter to the pastor and let him deal with it as he sees fit. It is a touchy issue because it is volunteer workers running the club....
Anyway, thank you all for your advice. It has been helpful to me and I am glad that there could be such a fruitful discussion from my question. If there is more to add, I hope we can continue the discussion in this, or another, thread.