Posted By: Avalee
The real cause of doubt - 12/03/05 05:14 PM
quote:
The real cause of doubt and skepticism, in most cases, is the love of sin.
Steps to Christ, p. 111.
The real cause of doubt
Posted By: Claudia Thompson
Re: The real cause of doubt - 12/04/05 12:43 AM
Yeah well let me tell you something, most of us never think we will doubt God or that we will falter, but you know what? When faced literally with various situations things can look mighty different to you. 1Cor:10:12: "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." Far better to be brought through trials and allow God to point out your plague spots to you now then find out when it is too late to remedy.
Its very easy to look down upon others when it isnt you who is facing something difficult. And if there is one thing I have learned very recently, it is that you are a whole lot better off turning to God when you have problems. (a lesson which I have already learned the hard way about before, and really ought to have known better about now).
Christ's Object Lessons 152-154
"The sense of need, the recognition of our poverty and sin, is the very first condition of acceptance with God. "Blessed are the poor in spirit; for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Matt. 5:3.
For each of the classes represented by the Pharisee and the publican there is a lesson in the history of the apostle Peter. In his early discipleship Peter thought himself strong. Like the Pharisee, in his own estimation he was "not as other men are." When Christ on the eve of His betrayal forewarned His disciples, "All ye shall be offended because of Me this night," Peter confidently declared, "Although all shall be offended, yet will not I." Mark 14:27, 29. Peter did not know his own danger. Self-confidence misled him. He thought himself able to withstand temptation; but in a few short hours the test came, and with cursing and swearing he denied his Lord.
When the crowing of the cock reminded him of the words of Christ, surprised and shocked at what he had just done he turned and looked at his Master. At that moment Christ looked at Peter, and beneath that grieved look, in which compassion and love for him were blended, Peter understood himself. He went out and wept bitterly. That look of Christ's broke his heart. Peter had come to the turning point, and bitterly did he repent his sin. He was like the publican in his contrition and repentance, and like the publican he found mercy. The look of Christ assured him of pardon.
Now his self-confidence was gone. Never again were the old boastful assertions repeated."
And once again, thanks... you all are just a real comfort to me in time of need... a virtual Treasure Trove.
Its very easy to look down upon others when it isnt you who is facing something difficult. And if there is one thing I have learned very recently, it is that you are a whole lot better off turning to God when you have problems. (a lesson which I have already learned the hard way about before, and really ought to have known better about now).
Christ's Object Lessons 152-154
"The sense of need, the recognition of our poverty and sin, is the very first condition of acceptance with God. "Blessed are the poor in spirit; for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Matt. 5:3.
For each of the classes represented by the Pharisee and the publican there is a lesson in the history of the apostle Peter. In his early discipleship Peter thought himself strong. Like the Pharisee, in his own estimation he was "not as other men are." When Christ on the eve of His betrayal forewarned His disciples, "All ye shall be offended because of Me this night," Peter confidently declared, "Although all shall be offended, yet will not I." Mark 14:27, 29. Peter did not know his own danger. Self-confidence misled him. He thought himself able to withstand temptation; but in a few short hours the test came, and with cursing and swearing he denied his Lord.
When the crowing of the cock reminded him of the words of Christ, surprised and shocked at what he had just done he turned and looked at his Master. At that moment Christ looked at Peter, and beneath that grieved look, in which compassion and love for him were blended, Peter understood himself. He went out and wept bitterly. That look of Christ's broke his heart. Peter had come to the turning point, and bitterly did he repent his sin. He was like the publican in his contrition and repentance, and like the publican he found mercy. The look of Christ assured him of pardon.
Now his self-confidence was gone. Never again were the old boastful assertions repeated."
And once again, thanks... you all are just a real comfort to me in time of need... a virtual Treasure Trove.
Posted By: Darius
Re: The real cause of doubt - 12/04/05 12:56 AM
Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. How does this fit into this view of doubt?
Posted By: Claudia Thompson
Re: The real cause of doubt - 12/04/05 01:25 AM
I realize this will probably be deleted but I am going to say it anyway.
A long time ago when I had only been a Seventh Day Adventist for a few years, I was going through a terrible time, I was tortured in my mind about my sins and what I was going through, and so I tried to turn to various people in the Church for spiritual help. All I got was self-righteous censure. It nearly drove me to despair and just compounded my problems, making me feel as if I were totally alone.
When someone is going through trials and very bad problems, the last thing that you need to do is look down upon them and try to make it sound as if you were condemning them. They need encouragement, they need love and understanding, and yes, they need your sympathy and comfort. But once again I dont even need to get any further into this to realize its always going to be the same.
But fortunately when I was going through such trials before, I had the Spirit of Prophecy, which is what made me love reading the writings of Ellen White so very much... I read this passage it mustve been over and over again a hundred times... because PEOPLE, CHRISTIANS, made me feel so terrible about myself, so I finally had to turn to God for help. Once again, I am realizing this same lesson. The very last thing someone who is in a world of hurt needs to hear is "you are a sinner"... as if they didnt already know this? They are probably more aware of that then you could ever know.
Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, page 353, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Appeals for Truth and Loyalty
Help the Sinking Souls
"There are souls who are starving for sympathy, starving for the bread of life; but they have no confidence to make known their great need. Those who bear the responsibilities in connection with the work of God should understand that they are under the most solemn obligation to help these souls; and they would be prepared to help them, if they themselves had retained the soft, subduing influence of the love of Christ. Do these poor souls, ready to die, look to them for help? No; they did this until they could have no hope of help from that quarter. They see not a hand stretched out to save.
The matter has been presented to me thus: A drowning man, vainly struggling with the waves, discovers a boat, and with his last remaining strength succeeds in reaching it, and lays hold upon its side. In his weakness he cannot speak, but the agony upon his face would excite pity in any heart that was touched with human tenderness. But do the occupants of the boat stretch out their hands to lift him in? No! All heaven looks on as these men beat off the feeble, clinging hands, and a suffering fellow being sinks beneath the waves, to rise no more. This scene has been enacted over and over again. It has been witnessed by One who gave His life for the ransom of just such souls. The Lord has reached down His own hand to save. The Lord Himself has done the work which He left for man to do, in revealing the pity and compassion of Christ toward sinners."
There are souls in their darkness, full of remorse and pain and anguish, who still feel that God is just and good. The Lord is keeping alive the spark of hope in their hearts. The poor, darkened soul feels, If I could only appear before God, and plead my case, He would pity for Christ's sake, and this horrible fear and agony would be relieved. He has tried to speak to men, and has been rudely repulsed, reproved, taunted by his supposed friends. Sometimes the reproaches heaped upon his head have well-nigh destroyed the last spark of hope. The soul that is conscious of sincere and honest intentions finds he has less to fear from God than from men who have hearts of steel. The soul wrenched with human agony turns away from the misjudgment and condemnation of men who cannot read the heart, yet have taken it upon them to judge their fellowmen. He turns to One who is without a shadow of misapprehension, One who knows all the impulses of the heart, who is acquainted with all the circumstances of temptation. God knows every deed of the past life, and yet in consideration of all this, the troubled soul is ready to trust his case with God, knowing that He is a God of mercy and compassion."
When David was bidden to choose the punishment for his sin, he said, "Let us fall now into the hand of the Lord; for His mercies are great: and let me not fall into the hand of man." He felt that God knew the struggle and anguish of the soul. When one is enabled to catch a glimpse of the character of God, he sees not in Him the heartless, vindictive spirit manifested by human agents; he sees that affliction and trial are God's appointed means of disciplining His children, and teaching them His way, that they may lay hold of His grace. "Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of His servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God." As the poor backsliding one is led to the river of God's love, he exclaims, When He hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold purified. The suffering soul is made patient, trustful, triumphant in God under adverse circumstances."
When finite, erring man gives evidence that he regards himself as of greater importance than God, when he thinks himself righteous, yet does not manifest the tenderness of spirit that characterized the life of our Lord Jesus, we may know that unless he repents, the candlestick will quickly be removed out of its place. All heaven is astonished at the terrible indifference of the human agents. Men who are themselves tempted to fall into sin, and need pardon, are yet full of self-sufficiency, and are unfeeling toward a brother who is ensnared by the enemy, and whose need and peril should call out Christlike sympathy and effort to plant his feet on the solid Rock.
Testimonies for the Church Volume Three, page 508
"Job was not understood by his friends. He flings back upon them their reproaches. He shows them that if they are defending God by avowing their faith in Him and their consciousness of sin, he has a more deep and thorough knowledge of it than they ever had. "Miserable comforters are ye all," is the answer he makes to their criticisms and censures. "I also," says Job, "could speak as ye do: if your soul were in my soul's stead, I could heap up words against you, and shake mine head at you." But he declares that he would not do this. "I," he says, "would strengthen you with my mouth, and the moving of my lips should assuage your grief."
Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, page 350,
"Job's professed friends were miserable comforters, making his case more bitter and unbearable, and Job was not guilty as they supposed. Those who are under the pain and distress of their own wrongdoing, while Satan is seeking to drive them to despair, are the very ones who need help the most. The intense agony of the soul that has been overcome by Satan and is feeling worsted and helpless--how little is it comprehended by those who should meet the erring one with tender compassion!
A long time ago when I had only been a Seventh Day Adventist for a few years, I was going through a terrible time, I was tortured in my mind about my sins and what I was going through, and so I tried to turn to various people in the Church for spiritual help. All I got was self-righteous censure. It nearly drove me to despair and just compounded my problems, making me feel as if I were totally alone.
When someone is going through trials and very bad problems, the last thing that you need to do is look down upon them and try to make it sound as if you were condemning them. They need encouragement, they need love and understanding, and yes, they need your sympathy and comfort. But once again I dont even need to get any further into this to realize its always going to be the same.
But fortunately when I was going through such trials before, I had the Spirit of Prophecy, which is what made me love reading the writings of Ellen White so very much... I read this passage it mustve been over and over again a hundred times... because PEOPLE, CHRISTIANS, made me feel so terrible about myself, so I finally had to turn to God for help. Once again, I am realizing this same lesson. The very last thing someone who is in a world of hurt needs to hear is "you are a sinner"... as if they didnt already know this? They are probably more aware of that then you could ever know.
Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, page 353, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Appeals for Truth and Loyalty
Help the Sinking Souls
"There are souls who are starving for sympathy, starving for the bread of life; but they have no confidence to make known their great need. Those who bear the responsibilities in connection with the work of God should understand that they are under the most solemn obligation to help these souls; and they would be prepared to help them, if they themselves had retained the soft, subduing influence of the love of Christ. Do these poor souls, ready to die, look to them for help? No; they did this until they could have no hope of help from that quarter. They see not a hand stretched out to save.
The matter has been presented to me thus: A drowning man, vainly struggling with the waves, discovers a boat, and with his last remaining strength succeeds in reaching it, and lays hold upon its side. In his weakness he cannot speak, but the agony upon his face would excite pity in any heart that was touched with human tenderness. But do the occupants of the boat stretch out their hands to lift him in? No! All heaven looks on as these men beat off the feeble, clinging hands, and a suffering fellow being sinks beneath the waves, to rise no more. This scene has been enacted over and over again. It has been witnessed by One who gave His life for the ransom of just such souls. The Lord has reached down His own hand to save. The Lord Himself has done the work which He left for man to do, in revealing the pity and compassion of Christ toward sinners."
There are souls in their darkness, full of remorse and pain and anguish, who still feel that God is just and good. The Lord is keeping alive the spark of hope in their hearts. The poor, darkened soul feels, If I could only appear before God, and plead my case, He would pity for Christ's sake, and this horrible fear and agony would be relieved. He has tried to speak to men, and has been rudely repulsed, reproved, taunted by his supposed friends. Sometimes the reproaches heaped upon his head have well-nigh destroyed the last spark of hope. The soul that is conscious of sincere and honest intentions finds he has less to fear from God than from men who have hearts of steel. The soul wrenched with human agony turns away from the misjudgment and condemnation of men who cannot read the heart, yet have taken it upon them to judge their fellowmen. He turns to One who is without a shadow of misapprehension, One who knows all the impulses of the heart, who is acquainted with all the circumstances of temptation. God knows every deed of the past life, and yet in consideration of all this, the troubled soul is ready to trust his case with God, knowing that He is a God of mercy and compassion."
When David was bidden to choose the punishment for his sin, he said, "Let us fall now into the hand of the Lord; for His mercies are great: and let me not fall into the hand of man." He felt that God knew the struggle and anguish of the soul. When one is enabled to catch a glimpse of the character of God, he sees not in Him the heartless, vindictive spirit manifested by human agents; he sees that affliction and trial are God's appointed means of disciplining His children, and teaching them His way, that they may lay hold of His grace. "Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of His servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God." As the poor backsliding one is led to the river of God's love, he exclaims, When He hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold purified. The suffering soul is made patient, trustful, triumphant in God under adverse circumstances."
When finite, erring man gives evidence that he regards himself as of greater importance than God, when he thinks himself righteous, yet does not manifest the tenderness of spirit that characterized the life of our Lord Jesus, we may know that unless he repents, the candlestick will quickly be removed out of its place. All heaven is astonished at the terrible indifference of the human agents. Men who are themselves tempted to fall into sin, and need pardon, are yet full of self-sufficiency, and are unfeeling toward a brother who is ensnared by the enemy, and whose need and peril should call out Christlike sympathy and effort to plant his feet on the solid Rock.
Testimonies for the Church Volume Three, page 508
"Job was not understood by his friends. He flings back upon them their reproaches. He shows them that if they are defending God by avowing their faith in Him and their consciousness of sin, he has a more deep and thorough knowledge of it than they ever had. "Miserable comforters are ye all," is the answer he makes to their criticisms and censures. "I also," says Job, "could speak as ye do: if your soul were in my soul's stead, I could heap up words against you, and shake mine head at you." But he declares that he would not do this. "I," he says, "would strengthen you with my mouth, and the moving of my lips should assuage your grief."
Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, page 350,
"Job's professed friends were miserable comforters, making his case more bitter and unbearable, and Job was not guilty as they supposed. Those who are under the pain and distress of their own wrongdoing, while Satan is seeking to drive them to despair, are the very ones who need help the most. The intense agony of the soul that has been overcome by Satan and is feeling worsted and helpless--how little is it comprehended by those who should meet the erring one with tender compassion!
Posted By: Doug Meister
Re: The real cause of doubt - 12/04/05 03:11 AM
Hi Claudia, the greatest text of the Bible:
"Blessed is the one whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessedis the one whose sin the Lord does not count against him." --Ps 32:1-2 (paraphrased by Doug :-)
Forgivness is the greatest concept in the Holy Word of God. Jesus only merits heaven. I have no merits to heaven - none of us do. But Christ GIVES His merits to me - and you. THIS is how sin is overcome. It is the LOUD CRY. When you think about it - its very easy to be saved. Just accept His forgiveness -- - - and weap bitter tears for your sins.
--Ðøug
™ 2005.12.3.16.07.08 PT
"Blessed is the one whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessedis the one whose sin the Lord does not count against him." --Ps 32:1-2 (paraphrased by Doug :-)
Forgivness is the greatest concept in the Holy Word of God. Jesus only merits heaven. I have no merits to heaven - none of us do. But Christ GIVES His merits to me - and you. THIS is how sin is overcome. It is the LOUD CRY. When you think about it - its very easy to be saved. Just accept His forgiveness -- - - and weap bitter tears for your sins.
--Ðøug
™ 2005.12.3.16.07.08 PT
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: The real cause of doubt - 12/04/05 04:40 PM
Doubt is the opposite of faith, and faith has to components – belief and trust. The doubt Ellen White is referring to in the passage of Steps to Christ Avalee posted is the opposite of belief – skepticism. The cause of this kind of doubt, she says that, in most cases, is the love of sin.
The other kind of doubt is the opposite of trust – it is to be uncertain about God’s love for us. Even Jesus was strongly tempted on this point. We naturally undergo a crisis of faith when we experience suffering. When I first experienced suffering I thought a thousand times of abandoning Christ. What use is a God who lets you suffer? But every time I thought this, the words of a biblical verse kept coming back to my mind: “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life”. Yes, to whom would I go? Who, or what, could I turn to? I had a ten-year struggle with my own faith. But every one who emerges from this crisis of faith, does so as a better person, deepened and strengthened in their experience with God. I’ve seen this reaffirmed in every book I read about grief; in the book of Job; in the story of Joseph; and in my own experience.
The other kind of doubt is the opposite of trust – it is to be uncertain about God’s love for us. Even Jesus was strongly tempted on this point. We naturally undergo a crisis of faith when we experience suffering. When I first experienced suffering I thought a thousand times of abandoning Christ. What use is a God who lets you suffer? But every time I thought this, the words of a biblical verse kept coming back to my mind: “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life”. Yes, to whom would I go? Who, or what, could I turn to? I had a ten-year struggle with my own faith. But every one who emerges from this crisis of faith, does so as a better person, deepened and strengthened in their experience with God. I’ve seen this reaffirmed in every book I read about grief; in the book of Job; in the story of Joseph; and in my own experience.
Posted By: Darius
Re: The real cause of doubt - 12/04/05 09:45 PM
Skepticism is a gift of God. It cannot be what EGW is referring to. Without skepticism humanity would stagnate.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: The real cause of doubt - 12/05/05 02:03 AM
"Skepticism is a gift of God." Darius you and I agree on this! Hard to believe. Without skepticism we'd never learn anything, much less discover new truths. Faith withour skepticism is blind faith, not true faith.
Redfog
Redfog
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: The real cause of doubt - 12/05/05 04:49 PM
I've found an interesting article about faith and skepticism:
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~tucker/rsl/sermons/2004-01-13.html
It's interesting that the author confirms what Ellen White says, that the real cause of doubt and skepticism is, in most cases, love of sin. He says:
"As a Christian endeavoring to have others share and enjoy the faith in Jesus that I feel blessed to have, I've come to think that much of the so-called skeptical intellectual opposition to Christian faith is not as much intellectual as it is merely willful. At least that was and is the source of many of my doubts. For example, I find that my so-called doubts about some parts of the Scripture stem not so much from my not understanding what is written as my not liking it, my realizing that if what the Bible says is true I need to stop doing or thinking something that I know is wrong but still want to do, or I should do something I know is right and don't want to do."
His conclusion is also interesting:
"But doubt is always part of faith, or at least way to it. One of the most compelling statements in the Bible about faith, one with which even the most faithful can identify is the cry of the man whose child Jesus healed, 'Lord I believe, help my unbelief.'
"How often I have said that. But then I remember a wise man once telling me to doubt my doubts. Jesus and Thomas illustrate the best use of skepticism and faith, as in a few paragraphs in the gospel of John we see the greatest transition from doubt to faith. Thomas, known as the greatest doubter, was transformed into the greatest believer, as the gospel narrative portrays the one who doubted, presented with the evidence, then offering the greatest of all professions of faith. Thomas said he would not believe without evidence. Jesus showed himself to Thomas and said, 'Do not doubt, but believe,' Thomas answered him, 'My Lord and my God.'
"Thomas was led to doubt his doubts, and then believed."
(italics mine)
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~tucker/rsl/sermons/2004-01-13.html
It's interesting that the author confirms what Ellen White says, that the real cause of doubt and skepticism is, in most cases, love of sin. He says:
"As a Christian endeavoring to have others share and enjoy the faith in Jesus that I feel blessed to have, I've come to think that much of the so-called skeptical intellectual opposition to Christian faith is not as much intellectual as it is merely willful. At least that was and is the source of many of my doubts. For example, I find that my so-called doubts about some parts of the Scripture stem not so much from my not understanding what is written as my not liking it, my realizing that if what the Bible says is true I need to stop doing or thinking something that I know is wrong but still want to do, or I should do something I know is right and don't want to do."
His conclusion is also interesting:
"But doubt is always part of faith, or at least way to it. One of the most compelling statements in the Bible about faith, one with which even the most faithful can identify is the cry of the man whose child Jesus healed, 'Lord I believe, help my unbelief.'
"How often I have said that. But then I remember a wise man once telling me to doubt my doubts. Jesus and Thomas illustrate the best use of skepticism and faith, as in a few paragraphs in the gospel of John we see the greatest transition from doubt to faith. Thomas, known as the greatest doubter, was transformed into the greatest believer, as the gospel narrative portrays the one who doubted, presented with the evidence, then offering the greatest of all professions of faith. Thomas said he would not believe without evidence. Jesus showed himself to Thomas and said, 'Do not doubt, but believe,' Thomas answered him, 'My Lord and my God.'
"Thomas was led to doubt his doubts, and then believed."
(italics mine)
Posted By: Redfog
Re: The real cause of doubt - 12/05/05 09:11 PM
The only way to learn new truths is to have doubts about the old so called truths. Without skepticism we would be like a reed in the wind, believing everything that comes along.
Of course only we can know if our skepticism is based on searching for the truth or the wish to find a way around the truth because we don't like it.
Redfog
Of course only we can know if our skepticism is based on searching for the truth or the wish to find a way around the truth because we don't like it.
Redfog
Posted By: Avalee
Re: The real cause of doubt - 12/05/05 09:21 PM
quote:You are so right...only we can know this...us and God knows what it is based on. We can never hide anything from Him.
Of course only we can know if our skepticism is based on searching for the truth or the wish to find a way around the truth because we don't like it.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The real cause of doubt - 12/06/05 03:56 AM
quote:Boy this is the truth! Unfortunately, not many Christians know the Gospel. I hope you found the Good News you were looking for.
But fortunately when I was going through such trials before, I had the Spirit of Prophecy, which is what made me love reading the writings of Ellen White so very much... I read this passage it mustve been over and over again a hundred times... because PEOPLE, CHRISTIANS, made me feel so terrible about myself, so I finally had to turn to God for help. Once again, I am realizing this same lesson. The very last thing someone who is in a world of hurt needs to hear is "you are a sinner"... as if they didnt already know this? They are probably more aware of that then you could ever know.