Chronicles of Narnia
Posted By: Redfog
Chronicles of Narnia - 12/11/05 08:11 PM
Right now there is a lot of talk about the Chronicles of Narnia by C.S. Lewis, especially with the release of movie "The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe". These books are allegories of Christianity. Do these works have any place in a Christians home? How is an allegory different from a parable? Are modern day parables, made up by man, appropriate to get across the Gospel? Is there ever a place for works of fiction in making a point?
Redfog
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/11/05 09:00 PM
Ellen on allegories;
quote:
Success in the winning of souls does not depend upon age or circumstances, but upon the love one has for others. Consider John Bunyan imprisoned in the Bedford jail. His enemies think they have placed him where his work for others must cease. But not so. He is not idle. The love for souls continues to burn within him, and from the loath-some dungeon there is sent forth a light that has shone to all parts of the civilized world. There he wrote his wonderful allegory of the pilgrim's journey from the land of destruction to the celestial city. This book, "The Pilgrim's Progress," portrays the Christian life so accurately, and presents the love of Christ so attractively, that through its instrumentality hundreds and thousands have been converted. {RH, May 30, 1912 par. 11}
Posted By: Restin
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/12/05 06:10 AM
Sister White recommended in one of her books that people read "Pilgrim's Progress", which kind of surprised me at first. I saw the movie Narnia this week, realizing it's a Christian allegory where the lion represents Christ and the witch represents Satan and his ravages on earth. In the movie, there is a bad, traitorous brother, Edmund, who is deceived by the evil ruler of Narnia. But Aslan the lion agrees to give up his life on an altar to save the boy. Aslan is resurrected eventually and Edmund changes. When I got home i lay down on the couch to reflect on this, and began a reverie of my own youth, realizing for the first time how trying I was to my family. I was defiant and sarcastic, and blamed my relatives for a lot of trouble of my own making. Seeing the majesty, power, and love of Aslan as Christ made Christ more real to me in this mmoment. Of course, I don't see a lion, but Christ as human. I confessed in tears. I then felt forgiven and a great load taken off from many years past. So, if that is what Narnia inspires people to do, it would seem there is something positive about it. I certainly didn't get anything like that from "Harry Potter" or "Lord-of-the-Rings"
![[Pray]](graemlins/pray.gif)
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/12/05 06:20 AM
To be fair, The Chronicles of Narnia are not Christian Allegories. Lewis said,
quote:
Some people seem to think that I began by asking myself how I could say something about Christianity to children; then fixed on the fairy tale as an instrument; then collected information about child-psychology and decided what age group I'd write for; then drew up a list of basic Christian truths and hammered out 'allegories' to embody them. This is all pure moonshine. I couldn't write in that way at all. Everything began with images; a faun carrying an umbrella, a queen on a sledge, a magnificent lion. At first there wasn’t anything Christian about them; that element pushed itself in of its own accord. It was part of the bubbling.
Of Other Worlds, 1966
The bubbling that Lewis was referring to is a statement he made earlier about Christianity; he asserted that Christianity was like air under water. No matter how much water is on top, Christianity will come to the top.
[ December 13, 2005, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: Dave Hoover ]
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/12/05 06:31 AM
Personally I find these stories quite good, and they also have a good lesson with them. I was quite amazed when I read the book called "C. S. Lewis: Letters to Children." Lots of children understood what was behind these stories, and lots of children say they have come closer to Jesus because of them. One that was extra interesting was a parent that wrote Lewis because she was afraid her son would love Aslan more than Jesus. Lewis wrote back,
quote:
Laurence can't really love Aslan more than Jesus, even if he feels that's what he is doing. For the things he loves Aslan for doing or saying are simply the things Jesus really did and said. So that when Laurence thinks he is loving Aslan, he is really loving Jesus: and perhaps loving Him more than he ever did before.
C. S. Lewis: Letters to Children
I loved the stories of Narnia when I was young, because my mother was very careful in explaining what the stories meant. Now that I am older, I very much enjoy C. S. Lewis' nonfiction and adult works. "A Grief Observed," "Mere Christianity," and "The problem of pain" are outstanding books, and I believe that God gave the man quite some insight. It fascinates me how an avid atheist can become a devout Christian.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/12/05 05:58 PM
Interesting posts on here. Restin I was especially touched by your post.
Growing up I was not allowed to read fiction, therefore I never read any of the Chronicles of Narnia however as an adult I've learned to enjoy and love the books having read them several times. You can pick up a book and be through it in an hour or two and feel good about it. Even when there is not any allegorical stuff going on there is still a message of right and wrong. Yes they are light reading and really written for kids however I think most adults can still enjoy them and gain something from them.
Redfog
Posted By: Dora
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/13/05 10:15 AM
From some of the posts I have read here, I am sure there will be those who disagree with this one. I almost did not post because of causing dissention, but I realize there are some things one just has to speak out about if they are convicted. And I am.
I imagine most have seen the Review, with the garish pictures. And, this below is quoted there, part of which is from Lewis himself. I have to say that I never thought I would see our church paper, which our pioneers heavily sacrificed to print in its' beginnings, ever have something like this printed in it.
......................................
"Perhaps Lewis provides a clue in talking about the process by which he wrote his children’s stories. He emphasized that his stories were primarily stories.
“Some people think that I began by asking myself how I could say something about Christianity to children,” he wrote, “then fixed on the fairy tale as an instrument; then collected information about child psychology and decided what age group to write for; then drew up a list of basic Christian truths and hammered out ‘allegories’ to embody them. This is all pure moonshine. I couldn’t write in that way at all. . . . At first there wasn’t even anything Christian about them; that element pushed itself in of its own accord. It was part of the bubbling.”
Perhaps sometimes we need to focus less on being evangelistic and more on simply being. Lewis sought to create a simple story, and his faith bubbled into it naturally. Direct evangelism is important, but, paradoxically, it may at times get in the way of our being most real and most effective, as well as adding a burden of guilt to our daily interactions." The Adventist Review
...........................................
As far as these books and the movie being spiritual and bringing the "symbolism of Christ" to the children, this is what our local paper said:
"Most young readers don't care about the symbolism, or even notice it. They're just wondering what magic awaits on the next page. Moreover, Lewis scholars say, the author felt that the stories should simply be enjoyed--preferably by a child hiding under the covers with a flashlight."
"Lewis' theology makes his stories of magic acceptable even to the conservative Christians who object to the witchcraft of Harry Potter, said Joe Barnhart, a philophy professor at the University of North Texas."
The Paducah Sun
I saw today that this movie had grossed much more than the Harry Potter movie this week. Maybe Satan has thought he would try being a bit more subtle with his "magic."
Does this sound a bit familiar to us, how for every truth, Satan has a subtle counterfeit waiting. Yes, Jesus IS called "the Lion of the tribe of Judah," but do you think the Bible writer had this movie in mind when he wrote that?
In His Love,
Posted By: Avalee
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/13/05 01:49 PM
Dora I for one do agree with you and yes when you have a conviction on something like this you need to speak up. Our church is being deceived by all this garbage. And yes I call it garbage. It is nothing like Pilgrims Progress at all. Oh sure you will find your few that say there are great christian morals to be found in them. However just like that paper said..the young people and I may say older people too are reading them more for the "magic" in them. It matters not the excuses they make up for reading them and going to see them at the theater. We are being lulled to sleep.
![[Thank You & Welcome]](graemlins/thanks.gif)
Dora for standing up for God's true principles. Amen
Posted By: Charity
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/13/05 02:02 PM
Avalee and Dora, have you read the children's books and adult books by Lewis?
I think overall it is good material. But the quality of a dramatized version of the children's books depends on the producer in the same way that a dramatization of the passion depends on the producer. The story line is being interpreted through someone else's eyes.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/13/05 03:11 PM
In which ways is Lewis different from J.R.R. Tolkien (The Lord of the Rings) and J.K. Rowling (Harry Potter)? I have read none of these but it seems all of them portray some kind of struggle between good and evil.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/13/05 03:48 PM
Of course most stories are in some ways a contest between good and evil, including most stories of war and police work. The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe is very clear in the Lion being portrayed as Christ like and the White Witch as Satan. Aslan, the Lion, gives his life instead of the repentant person who betrayed him, and the witch is the one who does the killing. Then the lion comes back from the dead and leads his people to victory over the evil forces. There are more allegories than that but that's a overview.
In one of the other books there is a nasty little kid who because of greed becomes a dragon. He is changed back into a boy after letting the lion peal off the dragon skin, which the boy could not do on his own. This is clearly a reference to sin and what it takes to give our sins to God and let Him free us from them.
The other books you ask about, while I've not read them, I understand there is no Christ like figure nor any thing else in them that would point a person to the Christian experience.
While I think the Chronicles are much better than most fictional books that people read I too have some problems with them. They only go so far in their portrayal of the Christian life, and in some of the books there is very little allegory and they are mostly a tale for entertainment. Again better for kids (or adults) to read than some but not real great if you are looking for a Christian message.
Redfog
Posted By: DebbieB
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/13/05 04:59 PM
I would suggest that the difference between Lewis Tolkien and Rowling basically goes like this: The Chronicles of Narnia are extremely christian in their themes, apart from pilgrims progress I have never read such a work of fiction, where in the Lord of the Rings the chrstan themes are very much more subtle. However Harry Potter, which I have never read, understand claims to show good triumphing over evil, but uses the same means to triumph over evil as those who are suppposedly evil! I have also heard Harry Potter accused of beng a pure witches manual.
My personal view on the issue of whether or not we should read any of these books comes down whether or not they uplift the mind or not.
I can say catagorically that both Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia (although I have only read the first four books) and Tolkiens Lord of the Rings have enriched and uplifted my mind bringing to my mind various bible passages at various places of the books.
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/13/05 05:03 PM
quote:
Most young readers don't care about the symbolism, or even notice it. They're just wondering what magic awaits on the next page. Moreover, Lewis scholars say, the author felt that the stories should simply be enjoyed--preferably by a child hiding under the covers with a flashlight.
If you are having this doubt, I would recommend that you read the book "C. S. Lewis: Letters to Children." You will be amazed at how children understood the stories and the Christian aspect of them.
quote:
In which ways is Lewis different from J.R.R. Tolkien (The Lord of the Rings) and J.K. Rowling (Harry Potter)? I have read none of these but it seems all of them portray some kind of struggle between good and evil.
C. S. Lewis wrote what he felt, and he felt a Christian life. J. K. Rowling makes no apologies for her dislike of Christianity. J. R. R. Tolkine does display some Christian principals in his Lord of the Rings Trilogy (Gandalph dies but comes back even stronger, bad times at the end until the king returns), but it is not the main element as the Chronicles of Narnia.
I think that people become slaves to the dramatization and movie forms too often. Do not judge the quality of a book by the movie. I find that a movie always places more violence, action, etc. than called for in the book.
It is hard to be a critic of C. S. Lewis without reading any of his books. If an adult is to judge his work, I would recommend an adult to read an adult book. Try reading Mere Christianity, The Problem of Pain, A Grief Observed, The Screwtape Letters (used in yesterday's Sabbath School lesson), Miracles, or even C. S. Lewis: Letters to Children. You will be amazed at how much children did understand about Christianity (as well as being able to see it in the stories) back in the 40's and 50's. I submit that if children do not understand the Christian elements, nor can see them, in the Chronicles of Narnia today, it is because our children are not surrounded in the stories of the Bible any more.
If anyone has read any of the above books, I would be interested in having a conversation about the content of them. They should aid to a good discussion.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/13/05 06:17 PM
Have read Mere Christianity and the Screwtape letters. IMO MC is a book Id recomend to anyone interested in a basic introduction.
/Thomas
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/13/05 06:45 PM
I agree Thomas. Did you also find it interesting that Lewis did not set out to lead someone to any denomination in Mere Christianity, but just to Christianity? Just the introduction of that book has some very good points in it.
Posted By: razorren
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/13/05 08:09 PM
I don't get it. Nor do I see the poing of me taking my family whom I have a responcibility to protect from the snares of the devil, to see this movie. Why must I search and dig and struggle to find God in a movie or presentation? If it is that difficult to grasp then prehaps its not there to begin with!?!
If it is truly about God then there should be no doubt or mystery about it. Isn't that the problem with much of the world today who wrap themselves in the appearance of christianity, but still instead of pointing to Christ, the object of worship is self, or Mary, or someother idol.
I would not take my family to see it, nor would I recommend anyone else go and see it. What for, I ask?! For what purpose I ask?! What have I to gain? What does the believer, who is exposed to the lies of Satan in music, television, print, the speech of others, etc, have to gain from going to see this??? Will it draw them nearer to God? Will it preparing them for the shaking that lies ahead? Will is build their faith?
We don't need to know how brilliant Senior Lewis is, nor do we need to see how brilliant the movie directors are. What we need to be doing is guarding the gates of our mind, which begins with what we behold. We need to be guarding ourselves and our families from the deceptions that exist in these last days and preparing for the coming of our Lord.
No one asks or wants to be decieved. But deception is what will happen to us when try to mix the holy with the un-holy. Christ has nothing to do with magic or magical characters. Nothing at all! Its call spiritualism and it will lead multitudes to their doom. Lord of the Rings, Narlia, it does not matter. If it is not of God and centered around Christ, it is not of God.
Lets keep it out of our homes, schools, churches lives, minds and hearts.
--Ren
Posted By: razorren
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/13/05 08:11 PM
quote:
Dora I for one do agree with you and yes when you have a conviction on something like this you need to speak up. Our church is being deceived by all this garbage. And yes I call it garbage. It is nothing like Pilgrims Progress at all. Oh sure you will find your few that say there are great christian morals to be found in them. However just like that paper said..the young people and I may say older people too are reading them more for the "magic" in them. It matters not the excuses they make up for reading them and going to see them at the theater. We are being lulled to sleep.
Dora for standing up for God's true principles. Amen
AMEN ladies!!!
Fully agreed.
--Ren
Posted By: razorren
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/13/05 08:15 PM
Here is something a friend of mine wrote on the same topic...
quote:
The Chronicals of Narnia are confusing at best and corrupt at worst. You cannot tell the story of Christ by using amalgamated man/animals, a lion and a witch. Fantasy of any kind creates a hunger for the sensational that will sour one's taste for the pure provender of the Bible. I know people who read Narnia that cannot look at the BIble without falling asleep. Some might say that this proves a value to Narnia,as it can reach those who find the Bible boring, but actually it is fiction and stories that cause the problem.
--Ren
Posted By: razorren
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/13/05 08:18 PM
What would happen if these same millions of children were reading the Bible in place of reading fiction? What would happen in this world?
"The readers of fiction are indulging an evil that destroys spirituality, eclipsing the beauty of the sacred page." AH 412.
"Both old and young neglect the Bible. They do not make it their study, the rule of their life. Especially are the young guilty of this neglect. Most of them find time to read other books, but the book that points out the way to eternal life is not daily studied. Idle stories are attentively read, while the Bible is neglected. This book is our guide to a higher, holier life. The youth would pronounce it the most interesting book they ever read had not their imagination been perverted by the reading of fictitious stories." CSW 24.
--Ren
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/13/05 08:28 PM
I guess we had better get Pilgrims Progress out of our homes too! Fiction is bad.
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/13/05 08:34 PM
quote:
We don't need to know how brilliant Senior Lewis is...
Not really the question at hand. It is not difficult to find the story of the gospel in the works of C. S. Lewis if one knows the Bible. The problem is that today we are uneducated in the Bible. We don't teach our children about it, we don't spend enough time reading it, and we are not surrounded by it.
Again, don't let a movie about a book decide what a book is like (Although I am not going to see the movie because of the way Hollywood messes things up). And do not judge something that you know nothing about. Yes, we know people by their fruit, but you must first examine that fruit to see it is good. I'm not going to list the books again, but try reading one of them. If you knew about his life and the way he felt about Christ (not to mention how he was converted from atheism to Christianity), you might get a different view.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/13/05 08:41 PM
Or the parable about the rich man and Lazarus, since that is obvious fiction.
However at the same time the Chronicles are not for everyone. And they should never take the place of Bible study. Also if a person is not well grounded in Christ the analogies could be rather confusing. I never read them as a child because I was not allowed to read any fiction however as an adult I've come to enjoy them and they have broadened my understanding of Christianity, but for some they might not.
How's that for a straddling the fence, wishy washy post?
![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
Redfog
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/13/05 08:48 PM
I would agree Redfog. If someone does not know the Bible, it is pointless for them to read Narnia. Only someone that knows the Bible can appreciate the Christian depth in the story.
Posted By: razorren
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/13/05 09:28 PM
So be it, but personally my position has been stated.
I find no comfort in the thought of willingly exposing my family to something that may lead them away from Christ. And all in the name of self entertainment? Seems to me that this is too great a risk and too great a price to be paid.
Do a Google search, and you will find websites that claim that Christ can be found in almost any movie...including Lord of The Rings, Harry Potter, Batman, etc, etc, etc. Where to we as the "Remnant" draw the line and say no?
This crafty lie was concieved in the mind of Satan, and many in the church are buying it whole sale. The temple of God had nothing to do with idols! There will be no magic, magical characters, or anything like it in heaven! They will be destroyed along with their creator by The Christ and I want no part in that fire.
There is no middle gound in this spiritual war. We are either worshiping God in all that we do or we are in the camp of the deciever and destroyer of souls.
--Ren
Phi 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Phi 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Posted By: razorren
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/13/05 09:46 PM
Redfrog wrote...
quote:
Or the parable about the rich man and Lazarus, since that is obvious fiction.
Redfrog lets look at some difinitions...
Fiction as defined by Webster:
(1)Something invented by the imagination or feigned
(2) An assumption of a possibility as a fact irrespective of the question of its truth
Parable:
(1) A usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle
So, fiction is a story of some sort that did not take place AND lacks truth. The parables that Jesus told were filled with truth and principle.
--Ren
Posted By: razorren
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/13/05 10:01 PM
Redfrog, Dave, please show me in scripture where those who belong to Christ should have ANYTHING to do with magic. While you are searching for that there are a few scriptures that advise us otherwise...
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Jer 27:9 Therefore hearken not ye to your prophets, nor to your diviners, nor to your dreamers, nor to your enchanters, nor to your sorcerers, which speak unto you, saying, Ye shall not serve the king of Babylon:
Jer 27:10 For they prophesy a lie unto you, to remove you far from your land; and that I should drive you out, and ye should perish.
Lev 18:21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
Lev 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
Lev 18:25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
Lev 18:26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
Lev 18:27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;)
Lev 18:28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
Lev 18:29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
Lev 18:30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.
Is it now pleasing to the Lord for us to watch, read and enjoy the works of magic, since they claim to be speaking of Him?
By beholding we become changed.
--Ren
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/13/05 10:03 PM
quote:
Do a Google search, and you will find websites that claim that Christ can be found in almost any movie...including Lord of The Rings, Harry Potter, Batman, etc, etc, etc. Where to we as the "Remnant" draw the line and say no?
Maybe so, but none of those other works can count as a Christian alagorie. Like I said before, The author of Harry Potter has a lot of contempt for Christianity, The Lord of the Rings has Christian elemnt but does not focus on Christianity, and I cannot see much of Christ in Batman (in fact I think the creator of Batman was an athiest). To understand how Christian Narnia is, one should read the other works of C. S. Lewis.
Personally, I am not interested in the movie either. The books were good, but knowing Dysney and how movies loose a lot of the important (in this case Christian) parts, I think it would do more damage than good.
I think we draw the line at things we find vulgure (Batman), unrelated to the Bible (Harry Potter), and things that are not edifying. We should deffenatly exclude works that are written by people who have contempt for christianity. But for those who work hard for Christianity, I think I will follow Jesus:
quote:
Whoever is not against us is with us.
Mark 9:40 NCV
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/13/05 10:09 PM
quote:
Parable:
(1) A usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle
Sounds like Narnia to me!
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/13/05 10:18 PM
quote:
So don't listen to your false prophets, those who use magic to tell the future, those who explain dreams, the mediums, or magicians. They all tell you, 'You will not be slaves to the king of Babylon.
Jeremiah 27:9 NCV
I don't see any real person using magic to tell the future of explain dreams, or is it just an illustration of the gospel?
Was it pleasing to God for Jesus to use a story that now confuses people about the state of the dead?
It is hard to judge without knowledge of those to be judged.
Posted By: razorren
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/13/05 10:18 PM
This is a synopsis from Yahoo...
http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1808475642/detailsFollows the exploits of the four Pevensie siblings--Lucy, Edmund, Susan and Peter--in World War II England
who enter the world of Narnia through a magical wardrobe while playing a game of 'hide and seek' in the rural country home of an elderly professor. Once there, the children discover a charming, peaceful land
inhabited by talking beasts, dwarfs, fauns, centaurs, and giants that has become a world cursed to eternal winter by the evil White Witch, Jadis. Under the guidance of a noble
and mystical ruler , the lion Aslan,
the children fight to overcome the White Witch's powerful hold over Narnia in a spectacular, climactic battle that will free Narnia from Jadis' icy spell forever.
Judge for thyself.
--Ren
2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/13/05 10:28 PM
quote:
Follows the exploits of the four Pevensie siblings--Lucy, Edmund, Susan and Peter--in World War II England who enter the world of Narnia through a magical wardrobe while playing a game of 'hide and seek' in the rural country home of an elderly professor. Once there, the children discover a charming, peaceful land inhabited by talking beasts, dwarfs, fauns, centaurs, and giants that has become a world cursed to eternal winter by the evil White Witch, Jadis. Under the guidance of a noble and mystical ruler , the lion Aslan, the children fight to overcome the White Witch's powerful hold over Narnia in a spectacular, climactic battle that will free Narnia from Jadis' icy spell forever.
Here is another story:
Two people are created by God, but do not follow what he told them not to do. The world is then controlled by the Devil who is the prince of the world. A noble but mystical man named Jesus is bourn to make things right and fight against the powers of the Devil. Can Jesus do it? Yep! His death on the cross (like that of Aslan's death on the stone table) makes death work backwards. Because of that sacrifice, all can live again, and the power of the Devil will be gone forever.
An interesting question, is personification an evil thing?
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/13/05 10:30 PM
But then this still ignores what I said before; a movie is not going to be a fair representation of the book. Also, I doubt that a Yahoo! summary is going to do much justice to the story either.
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/13/05 11:57 PM
quote:
inhabited by talking beasts
Simply personification. Another example would be:
quote:
"So you will go out with joy and be led out in peace. The mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees in the fields will clap their hands.
Isaiah 55:12 NCV
quote:
dwarfs, fauns, centaurs, and giants
Sounds a little nicer than this:
quote:
And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Daniel 7:5 - 7 KJV
quote:
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Revelation 13:1 - 3 KJV
quote:
There were giants in the earth in those days
Genesis 6:4 KJV
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/14/05 12:01 AM
Im not sure discussing a book with someone who has not read it but still has strong opinions about it is well spent time. I could aswell try to explain electicity or cars to some stoneage tribe living in the middle of amazonas... (that would get them started about magic for sure)
For those of you who do not wish to have anything to do with this movie: Good enough, but please stop shouting wolf until you have either seen it or at least heard it howl.
For those who wish to continue discussing Narnia but have not yet read any of the books, go to the local library and spend the 1-2 hours it would take you to read the first book, then you will be able to pursue an inteligent discussion on the subject.
For those who wish to continue talk about CS Lewis and have not yet read any of his books but wouldnt be caught dead with a work of fiction, borrow or buy any of the books mentioned by Dave. They are all good christian books.
It is always more edifying when one actually knows what one is talking about, for all parts involved.
/Thomas
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/14/05 12:09 AM
I knew we would agree some time Thomas
I wonder how many will take up our suggestion.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/14/05 12:14 AM
Im not holding my breath
![[Frown]](images/icons/frown.gif)
Posted By: Dora
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/14/05 01:28 AM
British author Colin Duriez, who wrote the article "Tollers and Jack" in issue #78 of Christian History, explains why this is so in his forthcoming book Tolkien and C. S. Lewis: The Gift of Friendship (Hidden Spring). Duriez tells the story of how these two brilliant authors met, discovered their common love for mythical tales, and pledged to bring such stories into the mainstream of public reading taste.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/134/52.0.html Tolkien and Lewis shared the belief that through myth and legend—for centuries the mode many cultures had used to communicate their deepest truths—a taste of the Christian gospel's "True Myth" could be smuggled past the barriers and biases of secularized readers.
http://www.thevalve.org/go/valve/article/adam_gopnik_on_cs_lewis_fairy_tales_and_the_religious_imagination/ http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/12/1209_051209_narnia_lewis.html http://frankrogers.home.mindspring.com/fairy.html http://chestertonandfriends.blogspot.com/2005/11/lewis-on-fairy-tales-true-myth.html "It is the fact that the Chronicles are fairy stories that makes their spiritual richness shine out, and it is that richness that makes them the sort of fairy stories to be enjoyed by everyone — both children and adults."
this above quote is found in the CS Lewis site, Link below:
http://cslewis.drzeus.net/papers/originsofnarnia.html No, I have never read anything by Lewis, nor by Toklkein, nor do I have a desire to do so. Neither do I want to put my opinion on this board for what others "should do" for we all must make our own decisions. The above links are so that anyone can read if they want to know more, and assess and decide for themselves what they believe. I know nothing of the reliability of these quotes within these links, I just found them on the 'net, as you, too, may have done.
The quotes in the links below are considered by me to be inspired truths. The first one is from TM & Gospel workers. In my opinion, there is no way of escaping the truth of what these quotes say...at least to me. Again, everyone will have to make that decision themselves. Thankfully, God wants only obedience prompted by love, and our own choices. Please understand again, I am not trying to tell anyone what or what not to think or do...only sharing my own convictions, which in a way is my testimony.
Dora
...............................................
Even fiction which contains no suggestion of impurity, and which may be intended to teach excellent principles, is
Page 446
harmful. It encourages the habit of hasty and superficial reading merely for the story. Thus it tends to destroy the power of connected and vigorous thought; it unfits the soul to contemplate the great problems of duty and destiny…….
Myths and Fairy Tales
In the education of children and youth, fairy tales, myths, and fictitious stories are now given a large place. Books of this character are used in the schools, and they are to be found in many homes. How can Christian parents permit their children to use books so filled with falsehood? When the children ask the meaning of stories so contrary to the teaching of their parents, the answer is that the stories are not true; but this does not do away with the evil results of their use. The ideas presented in these books mislead the children. They
Page 447
impart false views of life and beget and foster a desire for the unreal.
The widespread use of such books at this time is one of the cunning devices of Satan. He is seeking to divert the minds of old and young from the great work of character building. He means that our children and youth shall be swept away by the soul-destroying deceptions with which he is filling the world. Therefore he seeks to divert their minds from the word of God and thus prevent them from obtaining a knowledge of those truths that would be their safeguard.
Never should books containing a perversion of truth be placed in the hands of children or youth. Let not our children, in the very process of obtaining an education, receive ideas that will prove to be seeds of sin. If those with mature minds had nothing to do with such books, they would themselves be far safer, and their example and influence on the right side would make it far less difficult to guard the youth from temptation.
We have an abundance of that which is real, that which is divine. Those who thirst for knowledge need not go to polluted fountains. MH446, 447
Posted By: Dora
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/14/05 01:37 AM
To those on here who believe I should either read C.S. Lewis' books or stop discussing, I will have to say...ok, I can do that...stop discussing, I mean. I can't read his books.
We have heard enough from our pulpit re C.S. Lewis, even the story of the "Lion, Witch, and Wardrobe, and read enough in our Sabbath School lessons, no one could be uninformed in our church, unless they were deaf and/or blind.
Incidentally, we have heard little concerning Ellen White's writings for a long while, and never her name from our pulpit.
Sorry if I have offended anyone, but someone has to tell the truth of their convictions, based on the Bible and SOP. I know there are others on here who feel the same as I.
In His Love,
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/14/05 02:22 AM
I doubt that Lewis is at fault for your pastor not quoting E. G. White. I have read a lot from her in the lessons however.
If one was going to place that standard on all fiction, one would have to discount what E. G. White said about Pilgrim's Progress and also need to take out two of the four gospels of the New Testament. Either there was a principal in what E. G. White said about fiction that would lead her to say what she did about Pilgrim’s Progress, or we have a satanic verse in the SOP. If it is a principal, we must apply that principal to other works of fiction than just the one book.
Of course, this does not help to deviate anyone reading C. S. Lewis' non fiction books. I believe there is too much of a schema in Adventism.
And yet again, a critical review or biographical sketch is not enough to be a judge of the works of C. S. Lewis. If you really want to know what kind of fruit he produced, read what he had to say!
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/14/05 02:39 AM
Now isn't this more or less what non Adventist do with Ellen White? They listen to all the rumors about her, they read a small except of her writings here and there, and they form a conclusion without being educated in what she really has to say; people just believe what they hear.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/14/05 02:45 AM
Dave it has been years, maybe 15 or 20 since I went out and saw a movie. I don't even watch them at home or at the local academy, I hate prime time TV and just do not watch it either. They bore me and leave me feeling empty. However I did go and see this movie, it followed the book very closely, it really emphasizes the death and resurrection and why it was necessary. It would be impossible for anyone even remotely acquainted with Christianity to miss the allegorical meaning of this movie. And there is absolutely no blood shown in the battles, nor is there any foul language. I'm 100% certain this movie will be shown in academy chapels and in our churches fellowship halls just as soon as it comes out in DVD. I see no difference between seeing it in a theater, academy chapel or in the comfort of my own home.
Now that said I sure would not base any knowledge of Christianity on this movie or the books. Yes there is magic in the books and movie, but no more so than is in the Bible. The Bible is loaded with the supernatural (magic) for both good and evil. Would Mrs. White recommend these books? I have no idea, she apparently endorsed allegories and these books/movie is loaded with them, lots of them. Some of the other books in the series not so much.
Dora, and others, no you do not need to read the books to discuss them, (and all comments should be welcomed). You would understand the fuss about them better if you did however. I do not have to experience hiking the Appalachian Trail to discuss it, however having hiked the thing I can discus it with 1st hand knowledge.
I think the Chronicles are fine and not wrong to read, however maybe at some point in the future I may be impressed by the Holy Spirit to not read them, I'm not at that point in my walk with God yet. I enjoy reading both the negative and positive comments on here about them. Just because we disagree on something does not mean we're not brothers and sisters in Christ.
Redfog
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/14/05 03:23 AM
I could discuss hiking the Appalachians aswell. I have barely seen them once and have never hiked them. If I spoke about wanting to hike there I could do so well, if I spoke about stories from others who had hiked there I may manage that aswell, but if I tried to explain the particular toils and dangers of hiking in the appalachian mountains, anyone who had acctually been there on foot would immediately recognise me as a fake trying to be something or someone I am not. It would easily become rediculious if I tried to describe a view I have never seen or a sweat that never broke on my brow.
Same thing with discussing books. Having read the book Im sometimes left wondering if we are really talking about the same thing at all.
/Thomas
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/14/05 05:30 AM
Ren I naturally have to disagree with your definitions post
As you state a couple of the definitions of fiction are:
(1)Something invented by the imagination or feigned
(2) An assumption of a possibility as a fact irrespective of the question of its truth
The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus fits the first definition perfectly. It does not fit the 2nd. You have to take the definition that best applies to the situation.
Parable:
(1) A usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle
Notice a parable can be either fiction or true. Something can be filled with truth but that does not make it true, that is a huge difference. I agree that the Rich man and Lazarus parable is very much filled with truth but it was fiction invented by the imagination. Any novel can be filled with truth but that does not make the novel true.
A better definition of the Rich man and Lazarus parable might be an allegory. Which is what the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe is.
So in some ways the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe could also be a parable.
I hope I didn't muddy the waters too terribly much?
![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif)
Redfog
Posted By: Kevin H
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/14/05 12:18 PM
Having studied the issue of the Daily, and Mrs. White telling what visions do and do not do for her, and what she sees as the key messages from her visions and central to her message, I have been amazed that C. S. Lewis keeps coming up with the same key consepts.
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/14/05 04:27 PM
Pardon?
Posted By: D R
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/14/05 11:13 PM
Interesting posts all around! I can't believe it! I TOTALLY AGREE with David! Amen Brother, I knew we could one day agree on something BESIDES "agreeing to dissagree"
-Seriously though RAZOR since we are to take the Parables of Christ as 100% truth, the Prodigals son is confirming and giving truth on many fields, even on the issue of the "family ring" and all that it symbolizes. I know that this will cross the lines of another thread BUT the ring is of great importance, why WHY ? do we as SDA's take such paranoia of sinet, family or brotherhood rings? When Christ himself used this to present a very powerful point!?
-I have NEVER read any CSLewis, nor have I seen the movie. As for my approval... who cares! answer God does! I am sure from the many quotes and responses that I have read from SDA and "other" Christians, that this presents Christ and the great struggle of "the Great Controversy" (not the EGW edition) in a manner that Children and adults can learn from. I will go see the movie, even in a house of Theatres! Yikes
-I will follow up this post once I have viewed the film.
========
Removed the political remarks as political remarks such as this are not to be a part of this or any other topic of MSDAOL. - Daryl
![[Caution]](graemlins/caution.gif)
[ December 17, 2005, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
Posted By: razorren
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/16/05 02:58 PM
Posted By: Cheri Fritz
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/16/05 04:58 PM
Greetings,
Just a couple of years ago, I was speaking to my church sister about how lovely it is to witness God's Holy Spirit moving His people together. She and I spoke further and the subject came up that the enemy in all this discord, even has an order for his work to be accomplished too. I was reminded of this conversation this morning when I read anothers post question from another group.
Below I will share their question and my response.
quote:
Greetings (name removed),
Your question: What did Ellen White specify about Fairy Tales....what are your
thoughts?
Myths and Fairy Tales
In the education of children and youth, fairy tales, myths, and fictitious stories are now given a large place. Books of this character are used in the schools, and they are to be found in many homes. How can Christian parents permit their children to use books so filled with falsehood? When the children ask the meaning of stories so contrary to the teaching of their parents, the answer is that the stories are not true; but this does not do away with the evil results of their use. The ideas presented in these books mislead the children. They impart false views of life and beget and foster a desire for the unreal.
The widespread use of such books at this time is one of the cunning devices of Satan. He is seeking to divert the minds of old and young from the great work of preparation for the things that are coming upon the earth. He means that our children and youth shall be swept away by the soul-destroying deceptions with which he is flooding the world. Therefore he seeks to divert their minds from the word of God, and thus prevent them from gaining a knowledge of those truths that would be their safeguard.
Never should books containing a perversion of truth be placed before children or youth. And if those with mature minds had nothing to do with such books, they would be far safer. Testimonies, Volume 8, page 308-309, paragraphs 1 & 2.
From my own experience, I grew up Seventh-day Adventist. My parents were very liberal. I will share with you the results of fairy tales within my life. I grew to love them more than Christ. They prayed on my mind always. I read and read about fantasy always. I wanted to be like those stories and fables and myths. Sad, it is true, I never wanted to be like Jesus then.
The things which cause us to look away from Christ are just an enticement so that we may ever so slightly walk off the narrow path.
So with all things, we must take them into prayer, ask for the Lord's Holy Spirit to teach all truth. Search the scriptures so that we learn of Christ.
My prayers are with you,
with love,
Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri
Dear Brethren and Sisters, Christ prayed that we might be one. Oh that each of us would come together in one accord in the faith of Christ Jesus and not faith in Him.
Let us work towards our goal to have the mind of Christ, to have a clean heart and a renewed spirit.
Enjoy this blessed Sabbath,
Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri Fritz
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/16/05 06:43 PM
Cheri I grew up just the opposite, my parents were very conservative and I was never allowed to read fiction. It was only as an adult that I read the Chronicles of Narnia. At the time I first read them I really did not have my heart in the church. Really luke warm (with apologies to my son, Luke) you could say. I found that those simple little analogies were one step in the process of bringing me back to the Bible. I do see the danger of anyone immersing themselves too deeply into them, or anything else for that matter. It seems like every few years I'll pick up the books and read a couple of them. Light reading for sure.
Redfog
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/16/05 09:12 PM
quote:
I grew to love them more than Christ. They prayed on my mind always. I read and read about fantasy always. I wanted to be like those stories and fables and myths. Sad, it is true, I never wanted to be like Jesus then.
Does this stop you from reading Lewis' non ficton books?
Posted By: razorren
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/16/05 09:17 PM
Cheri, Redfrog,
My experiences were similar to yours. However, instead of fairy tales, I grew up on Japanese Animation. The cartoons filled with lots of violense, magic, characters getting killed and then moving to another plane of concious existance, etc, etc. And then as a young adult it moved to another level, the cartoons become filled with more and more magic. Calling up spirits and monsters. Then the X-Files, and horror movies, etc.
After joining the SDA church, it was the prompting of the Holy Spirit that led me away from watching those things. And there were times that I sneaked a peak at one of those shows, but it was not without the conviction that what I was doing was wrong.
Many of the images and stories are still in my mind. But when I reflected on the wasted time that I could have been spending in the Word, I know that I cant go back nor lead my family there.
What is the danger some might ask. The danger lies in the un-Biblical teaching. They are sometimes suttle, but they are certainly there. The danger also lies in the way that they consume the thoughts and mind.
I have no desire to get caught up in that stuff again, and even more I want to protect my family from those snares.
Our adversery is cunning and crafty. Anything that can be used to draw us away from God, that he will use. To some he will say there is no god, but he knows that many know better, so he now tries to mix truth and lie and pass it off as acceptable truth. It matters little how many wonderful allegories the stories or movies contain. They are either acceptable to God or they are not. I submit that magic, mystical creatures and fantasy are still unacceptable to our Lord as when He first said so.
--Ren
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/16/05 09:29 PM
After having heard both sides, Im inclined to think that the advice in Romans 14 applies to this aswell.
quote:
1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
/Thomas
Posted By: Kevin H
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/17/05 10:43 AM
Mrs. White counsels us not to read fiction such as "Uncle Tom's Cabin" but to read true stories such as "The Pilgram's Progress" (granted she qualified that "Uncle Tom's Cabin" did it's job, but at the time she was writing after the Civil war it was causing ill feelings towards the South at a time when healing was needed.)
There have been many studies in Mrs. White's comments about fiction. Surprisingly she was repeating the warnings of novelests in her day, such as Nathanial Horthorn and if I recall correctly, Herman Melvel, about a certan type of fiction that was popular in her day.
Let's not forget that Mrs. White loved the story of William Tell (who may or may not have been a fictional or semi-fictional character) and the story of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table (When Mrs. White bought Elmshaven, the fireplace had tiles from the story of King Arthur, she was not familar with them so she bought the book, read it, fell in love with it and would love to have children over and tell them the stories of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table.)
Let us be careful not to use Mrs. White in a way that ends up condemming Mrs. White, as we are too often prone to do.
Posted By: Cheri Fritz
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/17/05 01:55 PM
Greetings,
One of my favorite verses are 1 Timothy 4:12 "...but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity."
When we are moved by the Holy Spirit we are blessed to love one another, we are constrained by love to obedience. In this love there is not found judgment but understanding.
With regards to what I read, well I home school my children, and try to make time to read and study always. We are particular in what we read. If there are true stories which point us to Christ, then we use them. With all things, a parent must bring her children beneath her loving arms and guide them into safety.
Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri Fritz
Posted By: Avalee
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/17/05 02:21 PM
quote:
I would agree Redfog. If someone does not know the Bible, it is pointless for them to read Narnia. Only someone that knows the Bible can appreciate the Christian depth in the story.
I am so surprised by such a remark from you. Totally out of character for you. But you never know from where such remarks will come from do you? Or do you? Well we do have one person who does know don't we. And that is our Father is heaven. He knows all.
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/17/05 10:24 PM
You are surprised that I say people need to read the Bible?
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/17/05 10:46 PM
Now im curious Avalee, what would be the characteristic thing for Dave to say on this subject?
/Thomas
Posted By: Cheri Fritz
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/18/05 12:02 AM
Brother Dave Hoover,
To whom do you address your question?
Thank you,
Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri Fritz
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/18/05 02:20 AM
Avalee mostly, but anyone can answer. The main question is: what about my statments are out of caricter for me?
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/18/05 02:31 AM
Agreeing with me?
![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif)
![[Animated Laughter]](graemlins/laugh.gif)
/Thomas
Posted By: DebbieB
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/18/05 03:19 AM
Catching up on the thread tonight a couple of things sprang out at me that I think I will share here.
Firstly
quote:
Redfrog, Dave, please show me in scripture where those who belong to Christ should have ANYTHING to do with magic. While you are searching for that there are a few scriptures that advise us otherwise...
The Bible does admonish us to have nothing to do with Magic. However when explaining the magic of Gandalf et al Tolkien stated that magic was the nearest word he could find to portray the 'power' that Gandalf used. I strongly suspect that C S Lewis had the same problem in portraying the power of Aslan.
I think I mentioned that I am only just reading the 7 narnia books now as an adult but the biggest thing that impressed me was the description of the 'creation song' of Aslan, at the beginning of Narnia, in the first book.
secondly:
quote:
Personally, I am not interested in the movie either. The books were good, but knowing Dysney and how movies loose a lot of the important (in this case Christian) parts, I think it would do more damage than good.
I have seen the movie twice already and I was surprised at how faithful to the book the movie was, in fact the first viewing stimulate me to read the books.
Thirdly
quote:
I think we draw the line at things we find vulgure (Batman), unrelated to the Bible (Harry Potter), and things that are not edifying. We should deffenatly exclude works that are written by people who have contempt for christianity. But for those who work hard for Christianity, I think I will follow Jesus:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Whoever is not against us is with us.
Mark 9:40 NCV
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amen to that brother! There are definitely things that should not appear on one's bookshelf! ![[Reading]](graemlins/reading.gif)
Please do not forget that God can use anyone and anthing to his purposes and I know that even the bbc has mentioned the christian content of Narnia (Something they didn't do for Lord of the Rings!) Let's pray that God will use it to his Glory for I know that there will be those who will ask trhe questions about the symbolism.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/18/05 03:54 AM
Debbie I agree that the Creation song was great. That Aslan could just sing something into existence was like the Creator speaking something into being there. It made me think more about the Creation of the world.
What we Christians call miracles others would call magic.
Redfog
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/18/05 05:35 AM
I posted part of this letter before, but I think the whole letter is most interesting:
quote:
[When Laurence, a nine-year-old American boy, became concerned that he loved Aslan more than Jesus, his mother wrote to C. S. Lewis in care of Macmillan Publishing Company. Just ten days later to her surprise and delight, she received this answer to her son's questions.]
[6 may 1955]
Dear Mrs. K...,
Tell Laurence from me, with my love:
1/ Even if he was loving Aslan more than Jesus (I'll explain in a moment why he can't really be doing this) he would not be an idol-worshipper. If he was an idol-worshiper he'd be doing it on purpose, whereas he's now doing it because he can't help doing it, and trying hard not to do it. But God knows quite well how hard we find it to love Him more than anyone or anything else, and He won't be angry with us as long as we are trying. And he will help us.
2/ But Laurence can't really love Aslan more than Jesus, even if he feels that's what he is doing. For the things he loves Aslan for doing or saying are simply the things Jesus really did and said. So that when Laurence thinks he is loving Aslan, he is really loving Jesus: and perhaps loving Him more than he ever did before. Of course there is one thing Aslan has that Jesus has not - I mean, the body of a lion. Now if Laurence is bothered because he finds the lion-body seems nicer to him than the man-body, I don't think he need be bothered at all. God knows all about the way a little boy's imagination works (He made it, after all) and knows that at a certain age the idea of talking and friendly animals is very attractive. So I don't think He minds if Laurence likes the Lion-body. And anyway, Laurence will find as he grows older, that feeling (liking the lion-body better) will die away of itself, without his taking any trouble about it. So he needn't bother.
3/ If I were Laurence I'd just say in my prayers something like this: "Dear God, if the things I've been thinking and feeling about those books are things You don't like and are bad for me, please take away those feelings and thoughts. But if they are not bad, then please stop me from worrying about them. And help me every day to love you more in the way that really matters far more than any feelings or imaginations, by doing what you want and growing more like you." That is the sort of thing I think Laurence should say for himself; but it would be kind and Christian-like if he then added, "and if Mr. Lewis has worried any other children by his books or done them any harm, then please forgive him and help him never to do it again."
Will this help? I am terribly sorry to have caused such trouble, and would take it as a grate favor if you would write again and tell me how Laurence goes on. I shall of course have him daily in my prayers. He must be a corker of a boy: I hope you are prepared for the possibility he might turn out a saint. I daresay the saint's mothers have, in some ways, a rough time!
Yours sincerely,
C. S. Lewis
C. S. Lewis: Letters to Children
This letter was written a year before "The Last Battle," the last of the Narnia books, was published.
[ December 17, 2005, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: Dave Hoover ]
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/18/05 05:42 AM
When the animated film, "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe," was made (1979) my mother remembers the academy in Ohio (Mt. Vernon Academy) showing it on video for the students (probably sometime late in 1980). She does not remember anyone making a large fuss about it then. Has the schema about C. S. Lewis only arisen in the last 25 years?
Posted By: razorren
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/18/05 06:00 AM
No matter how much we try to rationalize the situation, it stills comes back to one point...what does God's Word say. There is not a person alive that can prove from God's Word that the Sabbath was changed from the 7th day to the 1st day. Likewise, I yet to see in Holy Scripture where those who belong to Christ should have ANYTHING to do with magic of any kind or in any form.
Therefore I repeat...It matters little how many wonderful allegories the stories or movies contain. They are either acceptable to God or they are not. Magic, mystical creatures, sorcery, etc are still unacceptable to our Lord as when He first said so.
"Abstain from all appearance of evil." -1 Thessalonians 5:22 This will probably be my last post on this topic. I am in a position to judge no one, like Paul said; I am the chieftest of sinners. So a few points if I may...
Redfrog wrote:
quote:
What we Christians call miracles others would call magic.
There is a distinct difference between the two.
The fact that we think the books were great and the movie lived up to the original has nothing to do with the councils that we have been given. Is it not "self" that says "this thing is too good to put aside"? Is it not self that continues to walk his own way even in the midst of clear instructions from God?
Sure, the media are all saying how Christianity can be seen in the movie, however, this is the same media that tells us that Sunday is sacred and the Pope is god on earth. The Left Behind series all claim Christ, yet are filled with deception, lies, and . Are they still acceptable?
Revelation 2:9 ...and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Take a look around. Go to some of the websites that call themselves christian, look at the movies, the music videos, the speech, the dress, etc, etc. Satan taking the same poison that he has in the world, wrapping it in a christian looking package and selling it to the masses in the church. Not everything that claims to be from God is from God. The eyes of the enemy are on this church and he is seeking to weaken and destroy all that he can in anyway that he can. we MUST be careful!!
We must surrender all to our Lord and walk in obedience and submission to Him.
My friends, there is a storm coming that we can never imagine. What we do now will either prepare us to stand or to....
In Christ and with love...
--Ren
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/18/05 06:22 AM
The problem with what was said is that it relies on others interpretations of what is presented. If someone really wants to know what Lewis believed and represented, Read what he had to say. In reading a book about magic that does not exist and not condemned in the Bible (There is no predicting of the future or cursed placed on people in the books) I am not partaking in magic. Nether am I interested in exploring magic. Even as a child, when my mother would read these books to me, I knew what the stories represented and had no interest in the "magic" within them. I appreciated the Christian aspect and learned more about Christ.
My opinion of the Christian aspect of the stories is in no way influenced by the media. I was interested in the Christian aspect long after, and before, the media had any cares of Narnia.
Indeed, we should all pray what Lewis himself suggested:
quote:
Dear God, if the things I've been thinking and feeling about those books are things You don't like and are bad for me, please take away those feelings and thoughts. And help me every day to love you more in the way that really matters far more than any feelings or imaginations, by doing what you want and growing more like you. And if Mr. Lewis has worried any other children by his books or done them any harm, then please forgive him and help him never to do it again.
C. S. Lewis: Letters to Children
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/18/05 07:33 AM
Really I have no problem with giants:
quote:
There were giants in the earth in those days
Genesis 6:4 KJV
I have no problem with talking animals:
quote:
Now the snake was the most clever of all the wild animals the Lord God had made. One day the snake said to the woman, "Did God really say that you must not eat fruit from any tree in the garden?" The woman answered the snake, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden. But God told us, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden. You must not even touch it, or you will die.'" But the snake said to the woman, "You will not die. God knows that if you eat the fruit from that tree, you will learn about good and evil and you will be like God!"
Genesis 3:1 - 5 NCV
I have no problem with animals that are mixed of form and strange:
quote:
And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Daniel 7:5 - 7 KJV
I have no problem with an evil entity causing a world to be cursed:
quote:
Then God said to the man, "You listened to what your wife said, and you ate fruit from the tree from which I commanded you not to eat. "So I will put a curse on the ground, and you will have to work very hard for your food. In pain you will eat its food all the days of your life.
Genesis 3:17 NCV
I have no problem with thinking of Jesus as a mystical ruler:
quote:
When Jesus finished saying these things, the people were amazed at his teaching, 2because he did not teach like their teachers of the law. He taught like a person who had authority.
Matthew 7:28 - 29 NCV
quote:
Jesus answered them, "Go tell John what you hear and see: 5 The blind can see, the crippled can walk, and people with skin diseases are healed. The deaf can hear, the dead are raised to life, and the Good News is preached to the poor.
Matthew 11:4 - 5 NCV
I have no problem with war and battles:
quote:
So Moses said to the people, "Get some men ready for war. The Lord will use them to pay back the Midianites. Send to war a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel. So twelve thousand men got ready for war, a thousand men from each tribe. Moses sent those men to war; Phinehas son of Eleazar the priest was with them. He took with him the holy things and the trumpets for giving the alarm.
Numbers 31:3 - 6 NCV
quote:
No other god has ever taken for himself one nation out of another. But the Lord your God did this for you in Egypt, right before your own eyes. He did it with tests, signs, miracles, war, and great sights, by his great power and strength.
Deuteronomy 4:34 NCV
quote:
When you go to war against your enemies and you see horses and chariots and an army that is bigger than yours, don't be afraid of them. The Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, will be with you.
[i]Deuteronomy 20:1 NCV
quote:
When you go to war against your enemies, the Lord will help you defeat them so that you will take them captive.
Deuteronomy 21:10 NCV
quote:
And he sent you on a mission. He said, 'Go and destroy those evil people, the Amalekites. Make war on them until all of them are dead.'
1 Samuel 15:18 NCV
quote:
Then there was a war in heaven. Michaeln and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.
Revelation 12:7 NCV
I do have a problem with magic, but only in the sense of it really being used, portrayed in a real imitable sense, taught to people, or forced on people. If it is used to illustrate a point, how is it different form Jesus telling a false story about people going to an ever burning hell or Abraham when they die?
quote:
Jesus said, "There was a rich man who always dressed in the finest clothes and lived in luxury every day. And a very poor man named Lazarus, whose body was covered with sores, was laid at the rich man's gate. He wanted to eat only the small pieces of food that fell from the rich man's table. And the dogs would come and lick his sores. Later, Lazarus died, and the angels carried him to the arms of Abraham. The rich man died, too, and was buried. In the place of the dead, he was in much pain. The rich man saw Abraham far away with Lazarus at his side. He called, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me! Send Lazarus to dip his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am suffering in this fire!' But Abraham said, 'Child, remember when you were alive you had the good things in life, but bad things happened to Lazarus. Now he is comforted here, and you are suffering. Besides, there is a big pit between you and us, so no one can cross over to you, and no one can leave there and come here.' The rich man said, 'Father, then please send Lazarus to my father's house. I have five brothers, and Lazarus could warn them so that they will not come to this place of pain.' But Abraham said, 'They have the law of Moses and the writings of the prophets; let them learn from them.' The rich man said, 'No, father Abraham! If someone goes to them from the dead, they would believe and change their hearts and lives.' But Abraham said to him, 'If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not listen to someone who comes back from the dead.'"
Luke 16:19 - 31 NCV
Is the teaching of an ever burning hell evil? Is the teaching of going to heaven or hell instantly after death evil? But Jesus used both of these to illustrate a bigger point. Is the use of magic evil? But Lewis used it to illustrate a bigger point.
quote:
So don't listen to your false prophets, those who use magic to tell the future, those who explain dreams, the mediums, or magicians. They all tell you, 'You will not be slaves to the king of Babylon.'
Jeremiah 27:9 NCV
Lewis did not use magic; he did not try to use magic to try and predict the future or explain dreams. He was not a medium or magician. He was merely illustrating a point in the same way Jesus was.
An interesting quote:
quote:
Understand this: The Lord God All-Powerful will take away everything Judah and Jerusalem need -- all the food and water, the heroes and great soldiers, the judges and prophets, people who do magic and older leaders, the military leaders and government leaders, the counselors, the skilled craftsmen, and those who try to tell the future.
Isiah 3:1 - 3 NCV
Judah and Jerusalem need people who do magic and those who try to tell the future? I sincerely doubt that.
I hope that is enough scripture for everyone. I am not trying to make anyone go against the calling of the Holy Spirit, but I am trying to show that there is a schema within Adventism on this topic. We have no place to condemn someone for doing the same thing Jesus did. We cannot say that eating clean meat, fish and drinking milk will prevent someone from receiving salvation.
quote:
Later, the Lord again appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre. Abraham was sitting at the entrance of his tent during the hottest part of the day. He looked up and saw three men standing near him. When Abraham saw them, he ran from his tent to meet them. He bowed facedown on the ground before them and said, "Sir, if you think well of me, please stay awhile with me, your servant. I will bring some water so all of you can wash your feet. You may rest under the tree, and I will get some bread for you so you can regain your strength. Then you may continue your journey." The three men said, "That is fine. Do as you said." Abraham hurried to the tent where Sarah was and said to her, "Hurry, prepare twenty quarts of fine flour, and make it into loaves of bread." Then Abraham ran to his herd and took one of his best calves. He gave it to a servant, who hurried to kill it and to prepare it for food. Abraham gave the three men the calf that had been cooked and milk curds and milk. While they ate, he stood under the tree near them.
Genesis 8:1 - 8 NCV
quote:
After Jesus said this, he showed them his hands and feet. While they still could not believe it because they were amazed and happy, Jesus said to them, "Do you have any food here?" They gave him a piece of broiled fish. While the followers watched, Jesus took the fish and ate it.
Luke 24:40 - 43 NCV
We cannot condemn people for getting food on the Sabbath:
quote:
At that time Jesus was walking through some fields of grain on a Sabbath day. His followers were hungry, so they began to pick the grain and eat it.
Matthew 12:1 NCV
We cannot condemn physicians working on the Sabbath:
quote:
One Sabbath day, as Jesus was walking through some fields of grain, his followers began to pick some grain to eat. The Pharisees said to Jesus, "Why are your followers doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath day?" Jesus answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and those with him were hungry and needed food? During the time of Abiathar the high priest, David went into God's house and ate the holy bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And David also gave some of the bread to those who were with him." Then Jesus said to the Pharisees, "The Sabbath day was made to help people; they were not made to be ruled by the Sabbath day. So then, the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath day."
Mark 2:23 – 28 NCV
And we cannot condemn people for making an illustration like Jesus did in His parable and C. S. Lewis did in his chronicles of Narnia.
And because of the season, here is a Christmas thought from C. S. Lewis
quote:
The Son of God became a man to enable men to become the sons of God.
C. S. Lewis on Christmas
[ December 18, 2005, 02:01 AM: Message edited by: Dave Hoover ]
Posted By: razorren
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/18/05 08:39 AM
Borrowed this from a friend...
"As satan used the scriptures when he tried to tempt Jesus, he today trys to deceive men into thinking that spiritualism is not spiritualism, but rather a good and even needed thing for Christians to read...Spiritual even?"
--Ren
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/18/05 08:59 AM
Ah, so scripture is not even enough for you
As the scriptures say:
quote:
You have eyes, but you don't really see. You have ears, but you don't really listen.
Mark 8:18 NCV
It is strange that whenever scripture does not agree with our schema, we say that the scripture is not being used the right way. If C. S. Lewis is evil for making an illustration, Jesus must too be evil for making an illustration. Is that the position we wish to take? If you disagree with giants, talking animals, animals that are of mixed form, evil causing a world to be cursed, the Son of God having powers that cannot be of men, or illustrations that use bad things to show good, then you disagree with the Bible and the Christian faith. Each one of those things is present in the scriptures, so what is it to be?
I guess spiritualism is needed as much as the teaching of an ever burning hell and the teaching of spirits going to heaven or hell instantly at death.
But then spiritualism is not present, by the nearest stretch of the imagination, in the Chronicles of Narnia. It is just more of the schema that Adventists have. If you are looking for spiritualism, look at the new age section of any book store. That stuff is real, and people experience and dabble in it, and I know that they were not led there by Narnia.
quote:
Whoever looks for good will find kindness, but whoever looks for evil will find trouble
Proverbs 11:27 NCV
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/18/05 12:13 PM
My suspicion here is that though noone has said it out loud, the real problem is that Lewis was angelican and surely no good thing can come out of another church than SDA... Will have to see if this is going to be confirmed or denied.
/Thomas
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/18/05 09:38 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dora:
We have heard enough from our pulpit re C.S. Lewis, even the story of the "Lion, Witch, and Wardrobe, and read enough in our Sabbath School lessons, no one could be uninformed in our church, unless they were deaf and/or blind.
Incidentally, we have heard little concerning Ellen White's writings for a long while, and never her name from our pulpit.
Here is part of a sermon by Joe Crews found on the Amazing Facts web site.
quote:
Jesus went around forgiving the wrongs of others. Let’s keep in mind that if He were God, He had the right to do this, but if we take the position He was just a good man, then He surely hadn’t the right to forgive anyone’s sins. Now, you can forgive a person who has wronged you. If he steps on your toes, you can forgive him for that. But Jesus went around forgiving people for stepping on other people’s toes. And He acted in every case as though He was the one who principally offended. Jesus Christ forgave sins. He said a person could not be saved except through Him. “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” John 14:6. He made it abundantly clear that it was impossible to find salvation except through Him. Let’s make this point clear today. It is sheer nonsense to say we believe Jesus is the greatest man who ever lived, that He was a good man, that He was truthful and honest and yet that He was not God. One cannot be considered a good man who claims that He is God when He is not. Common sense demands that Jesus either was what He said He was or He was an imposter. As C.S. Lewis said, “He was either God or the very devil of hell. There can be no middle ground.”
"Christ is the Answer" by Joe Crews
http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/Read_Media.asp?ID=1212
Interesting that Joe Crews, at one time the poster boy for conservative Adventism, would quote C. S. Lewis in a sermon. This would also indicate that he also read the works of C. S. Lewis. What do we have to say about that?
I feel this is just more evidence to prove that the schema over the works of C. S. Lewis has only arisen in the last 25 years. Crews died in 1993, so this sermon must be at least 12 years old.
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/18/05 09:47 PM
What can I say Thomas?
It is written:
quote:
I have other sheep that are not in this flock, and I must bring them also. They will listen to my voice, and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
John 10:16 NCV
quote:
Whoever is not against us is with us.
Mark 9:40 NCV
Sometimes I wonder if we would condemn Jesus because He did things we do not agree with Obviously we are against things today that he did.
Posted By: DebbieB
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/19/05 12:36 AM
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dora:
We have heard enough from our pulpit re C.S. Lewis, even the story of the "Lion, Witch, and Wardrobe, and read enough in our Sabbath School lessons, no one could be uninformed in our church, unless they were deaf and/or blind.
Incidentally, we have heard little concerning Ellen White's writings for a long while, and never her name from our pulpit.
My only question Dora is how do you now that what's being quoted is not pulled out of context?
Remember both the Bible, and Ellen white can be made to say anything when qoutes are pulled out of context. Infact you can make anyone say absolutely anything by pulling out a few out of context sentences.
Posted By: Steddy
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/19/05 06:32 AM
I am an SDA who has just read through this thread for the first time.
First, I would like to clarify something. In an earlier post, someone mentioned that the first book of C.S. Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia should, at least, be read. I assume that poster had meant "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe" (or TLTWATW). There is some controversy as to which constitutes the "first book". Lewis WROTE TLTWATW (which is an allegory of the Gospel story) first, then wrote "The Magician's Nephew" (TMN) (an allegory of Creation) as a PREQUEL to TLTWATW. If you only read one book in the series, read TLTWATW, but you really should read TMN first, then read TLTWATW, for, otherwise, there will be elements in TLTWATW that you will not fully understand.
(And isn't that just like reading the Bible? If you read the Gospels without having read Genesis, you will not really understand why it was necessary for Christ to die for your sin.)
Secondly, I am deeply concerned and saddened for those of you who would condemn any of C.S. Lewis' Christian writings (i.e. those works that he wrote after his conversion), without first reading them. If you are basing your opinions on what others have told you, or what you have read about Lewis' works, then you are letting others do your thinking for you. Our Lord gave you wisdom and a mind to use. I strongly urge you to read what you are talking about before commenting about it.
For example, suppose someone had never read any of EGW's writings, but had only heard about her books and her prophecies from other sources (for example, Hokema's "The Four Major Cults"). Without personally reading EGW's works, such a person could very easily come to the conclusion (as, sadly, all too many non-SDA Christians do) that she, herself was a sorceress or a witch or some such. (Please do not misunderstand me; I am only using this hypothetical comparison to make a point. I believe that EGW was a prophetess of God.)
Would you not think that it would be terribly unfair of someone to condemn any of EGW's books without first reading them? If so, then, likewise, it would be unfair to condemn TLTWATW without first reading it.
(As someone else has pointed out, it would only take a couple of hours to read superficially, but you should probably take a little bit more time to read and analyze it more deeply. Like Lewis Caroll's books, The Chronicles of Narnia can be enjoyed and understood by both adults and children.)
Thirdly, it has been suggested that reading the book or watching the movie without understanding the Gospel and and without knowledge of the Bible, will cause a person NOT to see the allegory. I have read "user reviews" of the movie (for example, at
www.imdb.com) by atheists who were upset at the patent Christian theme of the movie! So, (apparently) the Gospel story comes out so clear in this movie, that even atheists and agnostics "get it."
Fourthly, I have read both here and elsewhere that the movie is remarkably true to the book.
I had previously been planning NOT to see the movie because I was (predjudicially) "certain" that it would not have any resemblance to the book and would either downplay, or altogether omit, the Christian allegorical themes of the book. However, I am now given to understand that the allegory is in no way diluted from the original book, so now I DO intend to see it for myself.
By the way, it may interest some of you to know that C.S. Lewis' grandson was involved in the production of the movie. This is probably the reason why the Christian allegory was not diminished (if, what I have read, is true).
So, I do not intend to let others do my thinking for me. I will see the movie and come to an opinion after having viewed it.
If you are worried that Lewis was not really a Christian, or that TLTWATW will, somehow, pollute your mind, then I would suggest reading one of his non-fiction works first, such as "Mere Christianity". (I would also suggest "The Screwtape Letters" but that, after all, is a ficitional allegory, or, if you will, a parable, not a work of non-fiction.)
You might also be interested in his other non-fiction works such as "The Problem of Pain", "Surprised by Joy" or "The Four Loves".
After first meeting the Saviour and a few other folks, I, for one, very much look forward to meeting Mr. Lewis in the Kingdom (or be extremely surprised if he is not there; but it is not my place to judge who will or will not be there).
In His Love and Mercy,
"Steddy" (a.k.a. "Edmund" :-)
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/19/05 07:04 AM
Good points Steddy all around . However I still think that without some knowledge of the Bible the allegories would not be picked up, in either the books or the movie.
And yes except for some minor changes the movie stuck very close to the book, at times even using the exact same phrases, like "he's not a tame lion". I was reluctant to go see it for the same reason as you and besides I really don't go to movies or generally even enjoy them (It's been 10-15 years since I'd been to one)
In the paper today it was pointed out the viewers of the movie gave it 3.9 stars out of 4, whereas the reviewers (critics) gave it 2.8. I wonder if that might be because most reviewers are not Christian and were therefore prejudiced against it?
Redfog
Posted By: Kevin H
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/19/05 05:24 PM
There are points in the Chronicals of Narnia, more so in the Magician's Nephew, a Horse and His Boy, and The Last Battle, that if you are familiar with Mrs. White, really stick out.
The movie was faithful to the story line, but it missed several of the neuances brought forth in the book, the cartoon and the Focus on the Family dramiazation of it.
In the movie, when Aslan appears it is no big deal. In the book the children and the beavers are afraid to approach him. The children offer the beavers to go first, Mr. Beaver replys "Sons and daughters of Adam and Eve before Anamals" so Peter replys "ladies first" to only hear "your'e the eldest, you should go first" and Mrs. Beaver warns with a nervous voice "He's waiting." Walking with Aslan to the stone table the girls long to put their hands into his mane but would not dream of doing it until he asked them to, and the White Witch is terrorfied of his name. While in the movie the subjects simply bow to what had all the awe of a kitten, the girls simply place their hands in his mane, and instead of terror at his name the White Witch simply responds "If it's a war he wants it's a war he'll get."
The actresses, while mostly doing an excellent job, were a bit weak in the dread then the tearfulness in the walking with then the killing of Aslan.
The weakness in the movie was that it was no more than basically an overview of the story, and could have had more stars if it was more of a telling of the story including more of the neuances. It would not have taken too much longer to add some depth to the story, even if it was simply showing that Aslan was the mighty lion and not snaglepuss.
Posted By: D R
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/19/05 10:06 PM
Dave, "I agree with your posts" Wow,you have been posting some powerful statements on this topic! If Razor and you were to be playing Baseball on opposite teams, and razor tried to "steal 2nd" You would have him thrown out, cause he's way off base (at least in my "fantasy Baseball scenerio")
-I had not read any of CS Lewis. I attended public schools in the 70's and 80's.(way too crazy their now though! ) where these books were not even mentioned. My son is in grade 5 is 11 years old and has read the Narnia series. I went to the movie last night with my wife, son and self (like I could go without myself??? LOL ) With my son beside me, it was interesting to hear his quiet comments durring the film. On the drive home we discussed the film...He taught me and told me about the parallel images of the movie. All 3 of us could moreso understand the images than if we were OBLIVIOUS (if that were possible) to the Creation story and story of redemption. My son stated that if we are to isolate from this film, we may as well not watch the news on TV or read a newspaper... Interesting statement from an 11 year old?!
-I would rate this story as a 10 out of 10. The film portrayal would get an 8.5 out of 10. But then again I am a great critic...
-This debate is just a continuation from the debate that people have either for or against movies such as "The Passion" or any other film with Christian values or parallells...
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/20/05 02:23 AM
A couple of posts on here have alluded to Mrs. White reading books about King Arthur and other books of historical fiction. Can anyone point me to where I find more info on this? Thanks.
Redfog
Posted By: Kevin H
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/20/05 05:48 AM
The book "Ellen White in Eurpope" mentions how excited she was to be see the hills for the setting of William Tell, and also at her last home in Elmshaven they have her fireplace with the pictures from the knights of the round table and the tours tell the story. Also, you can read the different studies, some in the White vault (at least at Andrews, and a cassett tape at least at Loma Linda) and some published about Mrs. White and popular fiction.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/20/05 05:58 AM
Thanks Kevin. You don't know of a web site that brings these things up do you?
Redfog
Posted By: Kevin H
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/20/05 05:16 PM
Sorry, I not that computer litterate (the computer age has added a whole new meaning to the phrase "You can't trust anyone over 30)
Posted By: Pete P Pete
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/20/05 05:23 PM
So often garbage such as the movies mentioned seem to generate more heat than light. In the early part of the discussion Dora, Avalee and razzoren were right on target; thanks.
I wonder how many of us, and I'm *not* judging, spend as much time with the writings of EGW as we do watching junk movies and reading junk books.
May the Lord help us! A pleasant holiday to all of you whether you are pro or con!
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/20/05 05:43 PM
And what exactly about this movie/book qualifies it as "junk?" I assume you have either read the book or seen the movie to make such an claim.
Come to think if it, outside the church, EGW creates more heat than light. Perhaps people outside the church should treat her the same way we treat C. S. Lewis. Don’t believe me? Do a Google or Yahoo! search for her and see what people have to say about Sister White.
And what of our brother Joe Crews? Was he also immersed in “junk,” or did he see that Lewis has some very valid points?
The schema still lives!
Posted By: Kevin H
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/20/05 09:59 PM
Yes, I read Mrs. White. I love Mrs. White and am interested enough to minor in her thought and writings when I worked on getting my master's degree. I've read what she said about fiction, as well as studied into her writings about fiction. Now Mrs. White tells us what is junk and what is not junk. I also know what she said (especially when deaing with the issue of the daily) about what in central in her writings and what are not, and what I find facinating about Lewis is that he tends to focus on the same things that Mrs. White said was important as she was discussing the daily. Often I'm able to show a point by quoting both Mrs. White and Lewis as who ever may not notice it in one might see it in the other.
Now I am not placing Lewis on the same level as Mrs. White because we know that Mrs. White was directly inspired, and as far as we know for sure, Lewis was only indirectly inspired, a mind lead by the Holy Spirit in his study and meditation with out the direct communication of dreams and visions. How ever it is amazing how they both were attracted to and highlighted the same principles from the scriptures.
As we face the issues at the end of time, many will make the correct choices from what they read in Lewis, and many who will hear us teach from Mrs. White will be open to the message because Lewis plowed the heart.
I fear that there are too many who do not like to listen to what Mrs. White taught about how she wants her writings to be used and how she does not want them to be used. There are too many who like to edit her works to support their ideas and use her role as a prophet to demand blind accpetance of their ideas. That God could use others to give evidence does not appeal to their powerhungry natures or the powerhungry have followers who like to timidly follow. Whether powerhungry or one caught in their web I feel that much of the criticizism of Lewis comes from wanting to protect their powerbase or fear of God condeming them if they do not support someones powerbase.
Posted By: Steddy
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/21/05 12:33 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin H:
Sorry, I not that computer litterate (the computer age has added a whole new meaning to the phrase "You can't trust anyone over 30)
Ah! So THAT's what that "100+ Member" designation means! :-) (Sorry, Kevin, I couldn't resist!)
quote:
Kevin also wrote:
I fear that there are too many who do not like to listen to what Mrs. White taught about how she wants her writings to be used and how she does not want them to be used.
I did not meantion this earlier, but I am wondering, Kevin, if you can confirm something for me.
Someone else posted or indicated earlier that we do not hear EGW from the pulpit as much as we should. I remeber a SDA pastor telling me, once, that EGW, herself, mentioned that her writings should NOT be preached from the pulpit, but only the scriptures.
Kevin, do you know whether this is true, or where a reference to this may be found?
Thanks,
"Steddy".
Posted By: Steddy
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/21/05 12:53 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Pete P Pete:
I wonder how many of us ... spend as much time with the writings of EGW as we do watching junk movies and reading junk books.
Pete, I, too, would like to know what, exactly, about C.S. Lewis' writings would relegate them to the category of "junk books." (Please quote specific sections from his writing and tell us why you think it is "junk". BTW, I ask that you quote from the works he wrote after he converted to Christianity; not those he wrote before, when he was an atheist.)
I have not seen the movie, yet, so I cannot comment on whether it is "junk", but I have read from a number of sources that the movie is very true to the book. If so, I would be surprised to come to the same conclusion as you. Therefore, I would also like to know why the movie is "junk". Again, please refer to specific sections of the movie and tell us why it makes the movie "junk".
quote:
Pete also wrote:
I wonder how many of us, and I'm *not* judging, ...
I'm sorry to disagree with you, Pete, but the tone of your question does seem a tad judgemental to me. Your question seems to imply (and I do admit that I may be reading too much into it), that you think that those who enjoy the writings of C.S. Lewis cannot also love and cherish the writings of Sister White. Please accept my apology if I am wrong about that.
quote:
Pete also wrote:
May the Lord help us! A pleasant holiday to all of you whether you are pro or con!
I will take both of those wishes in the spirit in which they were intended, and thank you for it. May our Lord also help you, and I pray for you and your loved ones (and for all others here), a very Merry Christmas, and all the best for 2006.
In His Love,
"Steddy".
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/21/05 01:24 AM
I have in the last days read several newspaper reviews and commentaries on this movie, all in secular papers in a secular country and they all mention the christian theme in the movie and books. They have been at best neutral about it but all the reviewers have had to acknowledge it.
/Thomas
Posted By: Dora
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/21/05 09:58 AM
Using Testimonies in the Pulpit.
"A purported Ellen G. White statement credited to "Proper Use of the Testimonies," pages 4, 5, to the effect that her writings should never be read from the pulpit, is unauthenticated."
This information comes from the Ellen White Estate, and may help answer some of the above questions. It has been said by our pastor, that we are not us use EW's writings from the pulpit, but when asked about it, he had no information, just said he had heard that.
Posted By: Kevin H
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/21/05 11:18 AM
Thank you Dora!!!
In college and Semiary the story was shared in class, but I don't remember the source, that there was a pastor who was ONLY reading to the congragation from Mrs. White's worked when preaching, and that she told him to first study for what the Bible said, and to continue to study the Bible, then after he studied the Bible that he can turn to her writings to see how she applied the text.
Also, in dealing with the issue of the daily, there was further study into the text and came up with other possible understandings of the text. Now Mrs. White had made a number of comments about God leading the Millerites, and in these discriptions she used some Millerite termanalogy, including what they were saying about the daily and that they had the correct understanding of the daily.
Well, if God's prophet said that they had the correct understanding of the daily, then why study for any other understanding. To this Mrs. White wrote a lot about what visions did and did not do for her, including the statement that her writings are NOT to be used to answer questions like what is the meaning of the daily in Daniel...in other worlds you are NOT to use her to do exegesus on the text. Her prophetic work with applying Biblical princples to the development of the SDA church, pointing towards looking for neglected truth, and to tell about the issues of the great controversy. Everything else was applicaton and her explanations of what God showed her.
After 1923 when Fundamentalism ran rampant, everyword she wrote became treated as word for word from God and was used to whip people into shape. In the late 1920s they started calling Mrs. White an inspired commentary on the Bible (Judgeing from what she wrote about the daily she probably began spinning in her grave). Her counsel that if it is ever discovered that she wrote something that does not agree with the Bible that we should follow the Bible became a taunt as if to say "I dare you to find anything that does not agree with the Bible." and an all or nothing stance.
Well as we progressed from the 20s into the 50s people found themselves attracted to certan groupings of Ellen White quotes and eventually split into "Historic Adventists" and "New Theology" and they have been at war at each other throwing texts and quotes at each other and many of us have been stuck in the middle and there has been a lot of wounding in this warfare, and so a distancing from this wonderful gift. After the pain from these TWO new theologies (although one claims not to be new) fighting it out, there have been many wounded people and they have misunderstood the counsel to the pastor who did nothing but read Ellen White, and the counsel about the daily and turned it into a not reading Ellen White in church.
I have no problem reading Mrs. White, whether to an Adventist congragation or to non-adventists. From time to time Felix Lorenze reads Mrs. White in the Non-Adventist church he works with. I like Lewis as I can hold his ideas side by side with hers to non-adventists (just as she discribed her use of health reformers).
Mrs. White needs to be read in our churches and even more in our homes. but we need to re-examine her counsel conserning issues such as the daily, and see how we should use her...
let me use a classic example. Mrs. White's inspiration would see it important on issues such as studying the issues of the Great Controversy, and how to establish a mission outside of New York City and how to work cities in general.
But do we study to see how Mrs. White tells us how to work cities, or do we study her to answer questions of exegesus and what is the meaning of the daily or meaning of perfection or meaning of this theological debate or that one.
Posted By: Dora
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/21/05 08:49 PM
Thank you, Kevin, for that insightful post. I do feel we need balance in all things, and yes, I feel strongly, that if it does not speak to the Law and the Testimony, "there is no light in them." But, I have no argument with anyone on here as to how they intrepret that text, nor anything else discussed on here. Everyone has to make their own decisions, and hopefully using our basic Bible beliefs, which we know our church pioneers studied out, through nights of prayer. We need to be studying more together in our churches, as the early pioneers did. We need to use the Bible first, and the Spirit of Prophecy writings along with it, to help us better understand. That is why God gave them.
But, you hit on one important thought that is so much neglected in our churches today. That is to have missions established in our cities. Places to first help people who need it, such as Jesus left an example for us in MH, P143, and then "He bade them follow Me." I know that is a need where I live, and EW spoke much about that need, so does Jesus.
We are starting a project in our church in conjunction with the community, it is called "Bags of Love." This is providing something for the many children who are taken from homes with meth labs, etc. and are stripped of clothes, toys, everything. It is a small beginning, but we want to do something to help in this world of pain, and what better place to start than with the children? Jesus said, "Of such is the kingdom of Heaven."
In His Love,
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/23/05 06:56 PM
Other than the points I have already spoken to, I have not heard anything more about what makes the movie or the books bad. Does this mean that there is nothing else and it has just been categorized as bad because of our feelings instead of the facts?
And no one has any comments on Joe Crews?
Posted By: razorren
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/23/05 08:39 PM
What about Joe Crews?
--Ren
Posted By: Dora
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/23/05 10:11 PM
Was Joe Crews a prophet?
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/24/05 02:51 AM
Nope, but then I don't think any of us are either. Although one does not need to be a prophet to be inspierd by God. This still aludes the real question though.
quote:
Jesus went around forgiving the wrongs of others. Let’s keep in mind that if He were God, He had the right to do this, but if we take the position He was just a good man, then He surely hadn’t the right to forgive anyone’s sins. Now, you can forgive a person who has wronged you. If he steps on your toes, you can forgive him for that. But Jesus went around forgiving people for stepping on other people’s toes. And He acted in every case as though He was the one who principally offended. Jesus Christ forgave sins. He said a person could not be saved except through Him. “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” John 14:6. He made it abundantly clear that it was impossible to find salvation except through Him. Let’s make this point clear today. It is sheer nonsense to say we believe Jesus is the greatest man who ever lived, that He was a good man, that He was truthful and honest and yet that He was not God. One cannot be considered a good man who claims that He is God when He is not. Common sense demands that Jesus either was what He said He was or He was an imposter. As C.S. Lewis said, “He was either God or the very devil of hell. There can be no middle ground.”
"Christ is the Answer" by Joe Crews
http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/Read_Media.asp?ID=1212
[ December 24, 2005, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Dave Hoover ]
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/24/05 04:21 PM
Another interesting quote,
quote:
"Well, what about C. S. Lewis?” You know, C. S. Lewis who wrote the Chronicles of Narnia. And they say, “Well, those are some very popular books.” Now, I did read most of the Chronicles of Narnia. We read them with our kids and I’m not endorsing them. I’m not telling you to. But here’s what the difference is (Bewtwwn C. S. Lewis and J. K. Rowling). C. S. Lewis was a Christian. He wrote them for the purpose, in his own words, he said, “I wanted to teach the themes of the Plan of Salvation and Christianity to the children without all the stained glass.” And as you read it you recognize Aslan is Jesus and there’s these battles and he used some of the old English Fairy Tale/Pilgrim’s Progress motif.
Doug Batchelor
“What is Truth” - 2148
http://adventist.tv/transcripts/HWA-2003-02-14.htm
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/24/05 04:29 PM
quote:
In a coming program, as you and I get into our Bibles, I’d like to share with you one of the great turnaround stories of all time: where hardened atheist and scholar, C.S. Lewis found faith instead of surrendering it. (You don’t want to miss that great story; it’s one of my very favorites.)
But today, I want to talk about something that happened later in his life, after many years of a fulfilling Christian walk, C.S. Lewis made an amazing confession. Doubts really do come along. The pendulum swings. Some days it’s easy to believe in the existence of God; but other times you think to yourself, “Where in the world is He?”
Here is what’s really interesting. Listen: the pendulum of inner questioning, doesn’t just swing for Christians. It swings for atheists, too! Let me share C.S. Lewis’ direct admission, and remember that he lived on both sides of this river. He was both an atheist AND a Christian.
Shawn Boonstra
IT IS WRITTEN Television Series
The Barren Victory
(Even These Believed #1)
Production No. 1041
http://www.iiw.org/tvprogram/scripts/program-1041-script-1.html
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/24/05 04:32 PM
quote:
That’s when somebody took pity on me and loaned me the Chronicles of Narnia, by C.S. Lewis—all seven books. And I read them, cover to cover, several times.
In one of those books, The Magician’s Nephew, some children stumble across the ruins of a magnificent castle in the woods, and in the midst of the rubble they find a golden bell with a little hammer.
Now, if you were a child, and you found a bell in the woods, what would you do? I know what I’d do, I would ring it. Except that underneath this bell is an inscription:
Make your choice, adventurous stranger:
Strike the bell and bide the danger,
Or wonder, till it drives you mad,
What would have followed if you had.
One of the children in the story just can’t help himself. He has to know what happens when you ring the bell. And so, in spite of the warning, he grabs the hammer and hits it, just once. And the bell rings—just like you would expect. But the ringing never stops.
It swells in volume until it starts shaking the trees of the forest and the walls of the ancient castle. Everything begins to collapse, and they barely escape with their lives. In the end, they discovered that it was a big price to pay for a little bit of fun.
That is the story of sin. The bill is always bigger than you thought it was going to be.
Shawn Boonstra
IT IS WRITTEN Television Series
BUY NOW, PAY LATER
Production No. 1017
http://www.iiw.org/tvprogram/scripts/program-1017-script-1.html
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/24/05 04:37 PM
quote:
The great defender of Christianity in the twentieth century, C. S. Lewis, describes an imaginary conversation with a skeptic friend of his over the miraculous virgin birth of Christ:
“‘Miracles,’ said my friend. ‘Oh, come. Science has knocked the bottom out of all that. We know that Nature is governed by fixed laws.’
“‘Didn’t people always know that?’ said I.
“‘[Why], no,’ said he. ‘For instance, take a story like the Virgin Birth. We know now that such a thing couldn’t happen. We know there must be a male spermatozoon. . . . Modern science has shown there’s no such thing [as a virgin birth].’
“‘Really,’ said I. ‘Which of the sciences?’
“‘Oh, well, that’s a matter of detail,’ said my friend. ‘I can’t give you chapter and verse from memory.’
“‘But, don’t you see,’ said I, ‘that science never could show anything of the sort?’
“‘Why on earth not?’
“‘Because science studies Nature. And the question is whether anything besides Nature exists—anything “outside.” How could you find that out by studying simply Nature?’”4
DWIGHT K. NELSON
The Mirical and the Mystery
http://www.adventistreview.org/2000-1554/story1.html
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/24/05 04:57 PM
It would seem that those opposed to C. S. Lewis within the Adventist church (even among conservatives) are very much in the minority. I suspect that the difference is those who have read his work and those that have not.
Sound plausible?
Posted By: Dora
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/25/05 06:36 AM
According to Jesus' own words in Matthew 7:13,14, do we really want to be in the majority?
Not that I am comparing reading/seeing the movie we have been discussing to having or not having eternal life...(thought I maybe should say that so as not to be misunderstood) Nor do I think the minority is good just because it "is the minority."
But, I am just asking, "Do we really want to be in the majority today?" Something to think about.
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/25/05 07:11 AM
I think that one would not find Doug Batchelor or Joe Crews in the majority of most things we find today, but then here they are stating their approval of C. S. Lewis.
I fully believe that if one of them was peaking out about it, there would be no hesitation to post it on here; so how is it different to post their support?
Trust me, I do not always support the majority (just read my posts in other topics to prove that). But when it comes to this topic, I know what I have read. If that aligns with the majority, so be it, but if it does not align with me majority, so be it. Not one thing these leaders have to say influences my opinion on the matter because I have read the works of C. S. Lewis and I know the truth contained within them.
Can anyone give a specific example from the works of C. S. Lewis that makes his works bad, or must we rely on what others have to say, movie reviews, and assumptions?
Posted By: razorren
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/25/05 07:55 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Dora:
According to Jesus' own words in Matthew 7:13,14, do we really want to be in the majority?
But, I am just asking, "Do we really want to be in the majority today?" Something to think about.
Dora, as longs as we're on the side of Truth and Him that is Truth, we are in the majority. Even though in the natural the numbers may not reflect it.
![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif)
--Ren
Posted By: razorren
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/25/05 07:56 AM
Nice line-up Dave. Shawn Boonstra, Doug Batchelor, and Dwight Nelson. Yes, I respect all three of them but what exactly is the point? Am I to follow them regardless if they may be in error on a subject? I thought we were to look to the Bible to be our light and authority and not to the wisdom of men.
That is why we have the Holy Spirit as our guide and teacher. It’s the Spirit of Truth that will lead us into all Truth, not fiction, not the words of men, not movies or fables.
“The Holy Spirit has been given us as an aid in the study of the Bible. Jesus promised, ‘The Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.’ John 14:26. When the Bible is made the study book, with earnest supplication for the Spirit's guidance and with a full surrender of the heart to be sanctified through the truth, all that Christ has promised will be accomplished. The result of such Bible study will be well-balanced minds. The understanding will be quickened, the sensibilities aroused. The conscience will become sensitive; the sympathies and sentiments will be purified; a better moral atmosphere will be created; and new power to resist temptation will be imparted”. {CT 357.1}
This is what we need, this is what every Christian needs! The fictional books that you are so tirelessly defending will not help us today nor prepare us for the trials of tomorrow.
The first time I read the Great Controversy I stayed up all night. Time after time my eyes became filled with tears, my heart became heavy and I had to pray thanking God for who He is, pleading with Him for my past sins, asking Him for the strength to endure. There are no illusions in that book as to who God is. Many have testified that reading that book brought them to Christ because the book lifts up Christ!! Can we be of Christ and still worship Mary? Can the Chronicles of Narlia lead man to Christ and yet not mention Christ? If it is not lifting up Christ, then who is it lifting up? Sure, when you repeat in the child’s hearing on how “Christian” the movie is, then what do you expect to hear other than agreement? But let’s come back to reality shall we. How does a movie that does not mention the name of Jesus lead people to Jesus? Is this the best that the modern day Christian can do?? Is it any wonder that we are loosing our young people like a busted pipe looses water!!
Please, no diversions. I have nothing against CS Lewis, nor will I ever question his salvation. Those were never the issue. This real issue is what we allow into our minds and more over what we are encouraging others to put into theirs.
“The readers of fiction are indulging an evil that destroys spirituality, eclipsing the beauty of the sacred page. It creates an unhealthy excitement, fevers the imagination, unfits the mind for usefulness, weans the soul from prayer, and disqualifies it for any spiritual exercise.” {MYP 272.2}
This statement is clear. It has nothing to do with an Adventist “schema” that you seem fond of saying…it is the straight truth. I would think that the words of a Prophet have more weight than the words of Mr. Boostra, Batchelor or Mr. Nelson (who has been quoting from Rick Warren’s The Purpose Driven life on the pulpit).
But this takes me back to the question that I have always asked…”do we really believe that Christ is coming soon? Or are we just giving lip service to sound good?”
It baffles my mind to think the Adventists who say that Christ is soon to come are encouraging people to read fiction! Is this the best that we can do? Why not encourage others to read / study their Bible, and Steps to Christ, and The Great Cont, and Adventist Home, and Councils on Diet, etc, etc. What about books from Uriah Smith and our other pioneers? Is this what those who were called to preach the end-time message are busy doing?
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions".
“Even fiction which contains no suggestion of impurity, and which may be intended to teach excellent principles, is harmful. It encourages the habit of hasty and superficial reading, merely for the story. Thus it tends to destroy the power of connected and vigorous thought; it unfits the soul to contemplate the great problems of duty and destiny.” {CT 383.2}
Up to this point I have not seen anyone produce Biblical evidence or from the SOP that encourages us to develop a taste for the unreal, works of fiction on magic. Instead many are in open rebellion to the councils to stay away from the above. My advice to you my friends is to be very careful.
2 Cor 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
As the end-time generation, we must get the victory over the pleasures of this world and thankfully, Christ will freely give this power to all those who earnestly seek it.
2 Cor 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not , but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
2 Cor 10:5 Casting down imaginations , and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
--Ren
Posted By: razorren
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/25/05 08:03 AM
Satan is seeking to destroy God's people by any means that he can. His methods have become more suttle and more crafty than ever.
I encourage all those that are watching and guarding their gates to continue to do so.
Be sober and watch...
--Ren
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/25/05 04:24 PM
It seems everything there is to say has been said, let everyone be convinced in their own mind and follow their conciences.
/Thomas
Posted By: D R
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/26/05 05:35 PM
Well we had better EDIT (censor) the scriptures BECAUSE not all of the stories were literal, MANY were "fiction" pointing to reality. This is also what CS Lewis does, so lets get serious here and look at the roots of the stories, where they are pointing us to and the full intent of the stories! IF we are so "pig headed" (oops thats not kosher ) to not understand that scripture uses SYMBOLISM, which points to SERIOUS reality and likewise the Narnia series uses SYMBOLISM to point to reality...then we had best go hide our heads in the sand, beacause sombodies got OSTRICH syndrom, (maybe this is another form of AVIAN flu? )
-Thank you Dave for your serious and relevent posts. Shalom
Posted By: razorren
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/26/05 06:02 PM
Greetings Beachbum,
What is your position regarding the councils below which we have been given?
“Even fiction which contains no suggestion of impurity, and which may be intended to teach excellent principles, is harmful. It encourages the habit of hasty and superficial reading, merely for the story. Thus it tends to destroy the power of connected and vigorous thought; it unfits the soul to contemplate the great problems of duty and destiny.” {CT 383.2}
“The readers of fiction are indulging an evil that destroys spirituality, eclipsing the beauty of the sacred page. It creates an unhealthy excitement, fevers the imagination, unfits the mind for usefulness, weans the soul from prayer, and disqualifies it for any spiritual exercise.” {MYP 272.2}
Either we believe them and will follow them, or we don't believe and will reject them. This is a personal decision that we all must make.
--Ren
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/26/05 08:58 PM
Ren
May I refer you to the secound post in this thread. Ellen wrote that aswell. Do we have an irreconcilable contradiction from the writings of Ellen here?`
/Thomas
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/26/05 09:31 PM
This might be one of those areas where we can never reconcile all differences, either among ourselves or with the writings of Mrs. White. Those against CS Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia (CON) will bring up what she said about fiction, and those for the CON will bring up the fact that she recommended fiction (alegories). There is fiction and symbolism in the Bible, that is undeniable. The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus was fiction, also an allegory, undeniable.
There will be those on this thread that will never accept the fact that this issue will have to be reconciled in the heart of the reader. Both sides can be "proved" with the Bible and Mrs. White, but likely those that are hard set one way or the other will never acknowledge that fact. As some wise person on here said earlier, we need to be careful that we don't end up condemning Mrs. White with her own writings.
Also what might be fine for an adult to read might not be fine for a child to read. Lets face it there are many passages in the Bible that we'd not want our children to scrutinize too closely! (Like the story of Ester)
Redfog
Posted By: Dora
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/27/05 01:18 AM
Perhaps I should have given my personal testimony on this subject several posts ago. But, here it is now. Maybe I came across as never having read fiction, of knowing nothing of it, but I can personally attest to all of this being true that Ren posted above from EW's writings:
“Even fiction which contains no suggestion of impurity, and which may be intended to teach excellent principles, is harmful. It encourages the habit of hasty and superficial reading, merely for the story. Thus it tends to destroy the power of connected and vigorous thought; it unfits the soul to contemplate the great problems of duty and destiny.” {CT 383.2}
“The readers of fiction are indulging an evil that destroys spirituality, eclipsing the beauty of the sacred page. It creates an unhealthy excitement, fevers the imagination, unfits the mind for usefulness, weans the soul from prayer, and disqualifies it for any spiritual exercise.” {MYP 272.2}
All my life I loved to read, I grew up reading fairy stories, "Little Women," Nancy Drew mysteries, and others. I love history, and finally developed a passion for historical fiction. I immersed myself in it, and sometimes the fiction was more real to me than the world around me, even after I was a wife with a family.
After I joined the SDA Church, I had a terrible time learning to read the Bible and the SOP. For years, it was dull and boring to me, simply because I was used to more exciting stories. Of course, I had been taught the Bible stories from a child, but reading the Bible myself was a chore.
There were some bad events occurred in my life which some of you on here know about, and those drove me to desire a closer walk with Jesus. And to find a closer walk with Him, I needed to look for Him in His Word. No, the gift of desiring to read the Bible did not come overnight, although my committment to a closer walk with Him did come almost that way. But, gradually, I did learn what wonderful, exciting revelations Jesus had waiting for me if only I would try them, both in the Bible and the SOP.
Recently, I was thinking of the huge, thick book, "Gone With The Wind," which many years ago I read without thinking it was a chore at all. I know now that if I were told I must read it, now it would seem like an impossible task. But, I was also thinking, "Just suppose I decided, I will just read a chapter or two of this historical fiction, just to see what it is.." there is every possibility I would get "hooked" again. That is what I have been told that it means to be a "recovering alcoholic," one can never take that one drink, ever again. I believe anything we do which takes our mind from Jesus is just the same.
That is why I feel as I do about fiction, for I KNOW from bad experience that it does dull one's desire for the Word, and only through the grace and love of Jesus have I been enabled to enjoy and somewhat understand it. And, I daily thank Him for this.
Thank all of you for allowing me to share my testimony on this subject. I have no "fight" with anyone as to what they read, eat, watch or do. If you should ask my convictions, I will be glad to share, but that is all. We are told to do all to the glory of God, and that truly is between all of us and God. I just know what is right for me.
In His Love,
Posted By: razorren
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/27/05 01:58 AM
Hi Thomas,
I have never read Pilgrims Progress. What is it about and how does it compare to fiction?
Her quotes of warning were concerning fiction and not works of allegory.
--Ren
quote:
Originally posted by västergötland:
Ren
May I refer you to the secound post in this thread. Ellen wrote that aswell. Do we have an irreconcilable contradiction from the writings of Ellen here?`
/Thomas
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/27/05 02:16 AM
Ren,
May I recomend you read it yourself. It is a great book, one of the best besides the bible IMO. And you have Ellens blessing to do so.
/Thomas
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/27/05 02:51 AM
Perhaps there is a distinction between “fiction which contains no suggestion of impurity, and which may be intended to teach excellent principles," and fiction that teaches the story of the Bible or is intended to teach Christian values and not just excellent principles (Things like honesty, right vs. wrong, and gratitude).
What Lewis has is an allegory (if he intended it to be so or not). If the problem is not Lewis himself, as someone has clamed, that would clear us to read any non fiction book he has written to defend Christianity, but the feeling I get form many posters is that because he wrote fiction, all of his work is "trash."
If it is okay for Jesus to use a fictitious story to illustrate a point and if Pilgrim's Progress is to be accepted as Ellen White says, how can Narnia be any different?
As Doug Bachelor said in the quote I provided, some of the same elements exist in Pilgrim's Progress and Narnia.
Was Jesus wrong?
Was Ellen White wrong?
Was John Bunyan wrong?
Was C. S. Lewis wrong?
If Lewis was wrong, at least he was in good company.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/27/05 03:51 AM
Ren, allegories are by dictionary definition fiction. The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is allegorical but still fiction. We need to understand that any story that is made up is fiction, weather it is allegory or parable it is still made up and therefore fiction. And lets face it folks just because something is true does not make it fine to read. Many true stories are much worse for the mind than is 99.9% of fiction.
Allegory: the expression by means of symbolic fictional figures and actions of truths or generalizations about human existence;
Fiction: a : something invented by the imagination or feigned; specifically : an invented story b : literature (as novels or short stories)
Parable: a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle
Redfog
Posted By: van
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/27/05 05:27 AM
Hey everyone,
New to the forum thing here. Just had to add this to the discussion. Certainly truth can be communicated through fiction. The problem in my view is the source. I'm not here to question CS Lewis. But I do question the producers of the movie. To make it attractive, they sometimes will add things not in the book. And sometimes error creeps in. (I havent read Lewis nor have I seen the movie)
That's why the fiction in the Bible is trustworthy. Just look at the source!
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/27/05 05:54 AM
Van, good and valid point. BTW the next person who registers is #666, hmmmm
Posted By: Kevin H
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/27/05 08:47 PM
While this is indeed easier for those of you living at or near one of our colleges, especially if it has a White vault, but I'd again appeal to you to look up the studies they have of Ellen White and fiction.
Reading her words without the background would make it easy for us to exclude things that she had no problem with and worst yet to blindly end up accpeting what she was actually warning against. The consern over Lewis' work in this thread shows the need for this information to be known. Sadly it is not well published, but it is sitting in the files.
Mrs. White's inspiration gave her the wisdom to emphesise the warnings of people such as Nathanel Horthone (spelling?) and other novelists of her day against a new type of writing that was becoming popular. Mrs. White wrote in the style of these novelests and shared their consern over the new writings that were becoming popular but degrading the mind. This style was in both a secular form and in a religious form in "Sunday School Papers." Some of these continued on into radio and eventually TV as soap operas.
I am not as much worried of these people excluding things that do not fit Mrs. White's warning, as their lack of the historical background makes them prone to end up accepting writings that she did indeed have on her mind.
Posted By: DebbieB
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/27/05 10:56 PM
quote:
Originally posted by razorren:
“The readers of fiction are indulging an evil that destroys spirituality, eclipsing the beauty of the sacred page. It creates an unhealthy excitement, fevers the imagination, unfits the mind for usefulness, weans the soul from prayer, and disqualifies it for any spiritual exercise.” {MYP 272.2}
This statement is clear. It has nothing to do with an Adventist “schema” that you seem fond of saying…it is the straight truth. I would think that the words of a Prophet have more weight than the words of Mr. Boostra, Batchelor or Mr. Nelson (who has been quoting from Rick Warren’s The Purpose Driven life on the pulpit).....
It baffles my mind to think the Adventists who say that Christ is soon to come are encouraging people to read fiction! Is this the best that we can do? Why not encourage others to read / study their Bible, and Steps to Christ, and The Great Cont, and Adventist Home, and Councils on Diet, etc, etc. What about books from Uriah Smith and our other pioneers? Is this what those who were called to preach the end-time message are busy doing?
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions".
“Even fiction which contains no suggestion of impurity, and which may be intended to teach excellent principles, is harmful. It encourages the habit of hasty and superficial reading, merely for the story. Thus it tends to destroy the power of connected and vigorous thought; it unfits the soul to contemplate the great problems of duty and destiny.” {CT 383.2}
Granted I agree that we need to be encouraaging the young people to read the Bible and I have is Would you then condemn historical fiction?
I agree with Mrs Whites statements and nowadays my bookshelves are less full of fiction and more full of 'uplifting' books.
However we need to 'test' each of these things after all we have been told that 'by there fruits ye shall know them.' what fruit has Lewis' books brought forth? If Jesus was to come tomorrow would you want him to find you reading such material? These are personal questions which each has to answer. For myself the answer to the first has been answered by two things the testimonials I have read and heard from here and other places, andx also from hearing even the media (one of the most anti-christian propagandist things ever invented) talking about the christian themes. The second was answered for me by the texts that came to mind all the while I was first watching the movie and then reading the book. I urge each of you to apply a similar test to our reading material.
By the way I am in favour of Lewis's books.
May the Lord guide us in our reading and also in our spiritual life!
Posted By: razorren
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 12/28/05 02:40 AM
quote:
Originally posted by DebbieB:
May the Lord guide us in our reading and also in our spiritual life!
To that I say AMEN!
--Ren
Posted By: D R
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 01/24/06 07:58 AM
Fiction? when a story is based on real life, is it still fiction? CoNarnia is truly bassed on real life, so is it fiction???
Posted By: zyph
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 01/27/06 01:52 AM
I have read only the last page of this, so I apologise if this has already been said. Lewis wrote the Tales of Narnia as science fiction. He said later that they seemed to have a life of their own in becoming allegorical. Might this not merely have been that his imagination was using the things with which he was familiar? If the author himself - and I believe I read this in a reliable public source, but would have to seek the quote again - says he wrote a science fiction book, hasn't he made the matter clear? You may find allegories in many things, but they're not necessarily inspired. Stay away from that which leads in the wrong direction.
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 01/28/06 07:54 AM
Perhaps, but Lewis also said that he could not help writing a Christian story because he was, before anything else, a Christian. He also said that he had "a desier to teach childern about Chrits without all the stained glass."
You could make an agument for either side of this topic on that ground.
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 01/28/06 07:58 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Hoover:
quote:
That’s when somebody took pity on me and loaned me the Chronicles of Narnia, by C.S. Lewis—all seven books. And I read them, cover to cover, several times.
In one of those books, The Magician’s Nephew, some children stumble across the ruins of a magnificent castle in the woods, and in the midst of the rubble they find a golden bell with a little hammer.
Now, if you were a child, and you found a bell in the woods, what would you do? I know what I’d do, I would ring it. Except that underneath this bell is an inscription:
Make your choice, adventurous stranger:
Strike the bell and bide the danger,
Or wonder, till it drives you mad,
What would have followed if you had.
One of the children in the story just can’t help himself. He has to know what happens when you ring the bell. And so, in spite of the warning, he grabs the hammer and hits it, just once. And the bell rings—just like you would expect. But the ringing never stops.
It swells in volume until it starts shaking the trees of the forest and the walls of the ancient castle. Everything begins to collapse, and they barely escape with their lives. In the end, they discovered that it was a big price to pay for a little bit of fun.
That is the story of sin. The bill is always bigger than you thought it was going to be.
Shawn Boonstra
IT IS WRITTEN Television Series
BUY NOW, PAY LATER
Production No. 1017
http://www.iiw.org/tvprogram/scripts/program-1017-script-1.html
quote:
"Well, what about C. S. Lewis?” You know, C. S. Lewis who wrote the Chronicles of Narnia. And they say, “Well, those are some very popular books.” Now, I did read most of the Chronicles of Narnia. We read them with our kids and I’m not endorsing them. I’m not telling you to. But here’s what the difference is (Bewtwwn C. S. Lewis and J. K. Rowling). C. S. Lewis was a Christian. He wrote them for the purpose, in his own words, he said, “I wanted to teach the themes of the Plan of Salvation and Christianity to the children without all the stained glass.” And as you read it you recognize Aslan is Jesus and there’s these battles and he used some of the old English Fairy Tale/Pilgrim’s Progress motif.
Doug Batchelor
“What is Truth” - 2148
http://adventist.tv/transcripts/HWA-2003-02-14.htm
Posted By: rhammen
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 01/28/06 05:53 AM
I've never read the Ch. of Narnia. But I have read other books by Lewis.
At times it has seemed to me that they're just a waste of time and "garbage." My kids, however, love them, and are really into them. They have the right to their opinion; mine was worthless since it was based on prejudice since I never checked them out.
People read the Bible in public universities as literature and get nothing out of it. My son, who's 13, says he has learned more about redemption, salvation, faith, baptism and the story of the world (Great Controversy) by reading them. they haven't seen the new movie, but they do have the BBC videos on them. He says the actors show the spirit that is revealed in the books.
Some SDAs love to trash Christmas. We got it three Sabbaths in a row at church during Sabbath School. What is the purpose of that?! Yes, we know it's pagan, but EGW supports using Christmas trees, in church! So, how are you going to be an SDA and trash Christmas? Wel, it happens. The wise thing would be to use the Christmas season as an opportunity for evangelism. We shouldn't preach against the materialism of it all and its pagan roots and sun worship. Preach the word! Talkk about the meaning of it.
So, people are into Narnia. Let's educate ourselves about it so we in turn can point them to the truths revealed in it. The gospel needs to be contextualized. Here's a great opportunity to talk about those truths instead of just saying, perhaps to someone looking for the truth, "Oh, I don't like to talk about those things Satan is using."
R
Posted By: zyph
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 01/29/06 11:45 AM
There was nothing wrong with eating food offered to idols. Paul made that clear. But he would not make his brother stumble. You might well read with a mindset to find the allegory, but children just plain enjoy a ripping good yarn and don't have the maturity to understand the difference.
Posted By: D R
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 01/30/06 03:21 AM
zyph, you are highly underestimating the conceptual abilities of Children!
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 02/01/06 07:37 AM
I was able to understand it as a child, but then my mother took the time to explain it to me. Perhaps children do not understand today because parents do not take the time to explain.
Posted By: zyph
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 02/02/06 07:06 AM
I've actually studied the developmental capacities of children as they mature, so I do have some knowledge based in fact. Mrs White warned against fiction. This was a science fiction book. End of story.
Posted By: Dora
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 02/01/06 08:00 PM
We still have the question, "Why should we even be explaining it to the children?" If we have time and opportunity to explain anything to the children above the roar of the TVs in so many homes, why not explain the Bible stories?
Thank you, Zyph, for your well spoken observations.
In His Love,
Dora
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 02/04/06 07:03 AM
We shouldn't have to - if our children know the Bible. I too have some experience in psychology, and I know that an allegory is not a hard thing for an adolescent to understand. If we took the time to educate our children in the Bible, we would have no need to explain allegories to them. Would a normal child understand "Pilgrim's Progress?" See we can wish it to be the end of the story, but it goes a lot deeper than we would wish. Why did Ellen White recommend a work of fiction if all fiction is bad? Why did Jesus tell fictitious stories if all fiction is bad?
The truth is this – if our children were more educated in the Bible, they would understand the Christian implementation of the stories. For those children that do understand it, I must congratulate the parents on the fine job they have done and praise God that they understand the Christian struggle so well.
As I said some three or four pages ago, if you read the book, "C. S. Lewis: Letters to Children," you would find that many children understood the Christian element of Narnai in the 1950's and 60's. If it is not that way today, it is because we are now living in a pagan society, and parents are not doing enough to train their children in Christianity.
Ellen White warned against fiction then recommended "Pilgrim's Progress" (a clear work of fiction that uses many of the same elements as Narnia) Jesus told fictitious stories. What do we really have a problem with here? The recommendation of allegories by Ellen White? The use of an allegory like Jesus used? Are we to fault a work because it uses the same teaching method that Jesus used? Are we to fault a work for using a teaching method as “Pilgrim’s Progress” used (A book recommended by Ellen G. White)?
Posted By: zyph
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 02/05/06 04:02 PM
Pilgrim's Progress is allegorical, with the journey being the allegory part. The names of the characters and situations are not veiled, and are things every Christian encounters. There is no way to enjoy this as a novel. The only way to truly enjoy this work is from the point of view of a practising Christian. It is not a ripping good yarn. In fact, it's really pretty tame by itself. As Mrs White said, getting excited by fictional stories interferes with one's ability to concentrate on things of scripture. She also said people would be as addicted to reading exciting novels as they would to drink. Addicts regularly defend their behaviour, justifying it and denying there is any problem. I believe someone who wants to follow Jesus askd how far from the edge they can go, not how close to the edge before they risk toppling over. I wonder if there is a punishment reserved for us if we "put the cup to the lip" of those who then become addicted to exciting novels? There is an abundance of wonder in nature, great bible stories, lots of little lessons to be learned by children that don't involve electronic media. Give them a taste for that which is not artificial. Narnia is a science fiction story.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 02/05/06 04:26 PM
Zyph have you ever read one of the Chronicles? If you did you would realize they are not science fiction. Fiction yes. Maybe some would consider them fairy tale/fantesy in nature but there is no science in them at all. They are set in a very technically backward world.
Now maybe for some they are just a good yarn. For me they were much more than that, they opened my eyes to certain aspects of Christianity that I'd not seen before, or at least had not fully considered. Are they for everybody? Likely not. For a small child or those not well versed in Christian principles they would just be a tale to read, rather like the Hobbit or some other work of fantasy, however for any discerning Christian the parallels with Christianity are not only obvious but prominent through out the whole series.
If a person choose to not read them that's fine. I do not believe they should ever be in a Christian school libary. The choice should be left up to a parent or, if a young adult, to the person themselves to read or not to read. I first read them in my 20's and was thankful I did. And once again I'll say they should never ever take the place of the Bible or SOP, however like most books that teach Christian principles I feel that they have their place in some homes.
Redfog
Posted By: Kay Sullivan
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 05/01/06 09:44 PM
To me there is no point in teaching the plan of salvation by way of witches and mystical nonsense.
Whatever happened to the plain "Thus saith the Lord?"
Since when are movies necessary anyway?
Posted By: D R
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 05/04/06 03:24 AM
...meanwhile, back at "Little house on the Prairie"...
Posted By: Avalee
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 06/03/06 02:45 AM
....Meanwhile back to God and His true Words to us:
Quote:
There is another class of books--love stories and frivolous, exciting tales--which are a curse to everyone who reads them, even though the author may attach a good moral. Often religious statements are woven all through these books, but in most cases Satan is but clothed in angel robes to deceive and allure the unsuspicious. The practice of story reading is one of the means employed by Satan to destroy souls. It produces a false, unhealthy excitement, fevers the imagination, unfits the mind for usefulness, and disqualifies it for any spiritual exercise. It weans the soul from prayer and from the love of spiritual things.
The above words are taken from:
Chap. 15 - What Shall Our Children Read?
Councils to Parents, Teachers, and Students
Page 132-135
Praise God for His Word to us to warn us about books like Chronicles of Narnia. Amen
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 06/04/06 01:15 AM
I've always found it a little amusing, and sad, that there are those within the SDA church who will not set foot in a movie theater but will gleefully watch prime time on TV for two or three hours every single night. They will schedule things around "their shows", discuss plots with others etc but won't be caught dead in a public theater. The same movie is fine to be showed at a church school, academy or home but it's wrong to see it at a theater? How much more hypocritical can we get?
Redfog
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 06/10/06 11:47 PM
I seem to remember that EGW liked the tails of King Arthur. Now there was a King Arthur, but I highly doubt the true story was anything like the myths. I believe she even had a fire place with depictions of the stories around it for the last 15 years of her life. It seems an odd thing to have if we are to avoid all fiction.
As for theaters, I like to have the luxury of having the ability to turn off the programming. I am shocked at some of the filth that is slipped into movies that are rated G here in America. I am not in control of what is presented on a screen in a theater, although I could walk out but that is a huge waste of money, but I do control what appears on the screen in my house. I am not trying to pass judgment here; I am only saying I need to have control and not someone else.
Posted By: D R
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 06/13/06 06:21 AM
It would be wise then to avoid and do not read or listen to the "stories" that George W Bush is spreading around the world, he is a modern day King of Fiction!
Posted By: Charity
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 06/15/06 03:20 AM
I made a couple posts closer to the beginning that mildly endorsed the Tales of Narnia. You're posts Avalee and Zyph are leaning me towards your view. I borrowed and watched the first of the Lord of the Rings trilogy last week. One reason I did was because I know Tolkien (sp?) was a good friend of Lewis. It convinced me that the good elements of the plot and the breathtaking scenery don't compensate for the toll the movie exacts on your imagination. The movie was full of violence. Lewis' material is not as objectionable, but I can certainly see why parents would want to think twice about giving the books to their kids. Of course if the kids are already reading and watching things that are lower in value then Lewis is an improvement, but shouldn't we be giving out kids nothing but the best?
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 06/15/06 03:05 PM
I wonder if this applies here?
Quote:
You guide the people, but you are blind! You are like a person who picks a fly out of a drink and then swallows a camel!
Matthew 23:24 NCV
If we do not like Narnia, I am sure that Lewis wrote other books that all Adventists could appreciate. I find that his writing is a lot better than many of the Adventist authors we have today.
I would also not recommend judging Lewis' work by those who kept company with him. Judas Iscariot kept company with Jesus, but that did not lesson the effect of Jesus' ministry.
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 06/15/06 03:19 PM
Quote:
To me there is no point in teaching the plan of salvation by way of witches and mystical nonsense.
Whatever happened to the plain "Thus saith the Lord?"
Since when are movies necessary anyway?
I wonder if there is any point in teaching the plan of salvation by way of an ever burning Hell, going to Heaven or Hell upon death, and having the people in Hell converse with those in Heaven.
Quote:
There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' "'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"
Luke 16:19 - 31 NCV
I think that we must be misunderstanding what EGW said about fiction. If we take it to mean that all fiction is evil and of the devil, we have some serious issues. First, it would mean that EGW condemns herself for recommending a work of fiction to be read (Pilgrim’s Progress) and her attachment to the fictitious stories of King Arthur. Second, that would also mean that EGW is condemning Jesus for using a fictitious story; she would be saying that Jesus used the methods of the devil and is therefore an agent of Satin himself! Now is that really what she meant, or are we just a little off on our understanding?
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 06/15/06 03:59 PM
Mark,
First, as Dave pointed out, Narnia is not LOTR, and secoundly, the book is (almost) always better than the film. Violence makes profitable movies and the limited timeframe of movies means cutting away other parts.
While it is true that LOTR and also to a lesser extent Narnia has a war theme, thats not something that is unheard of in theology or the big picture of salvation history. Just see the frequent references to the GC in some of the other live threads this past week.
/Thomas
Posted By: D R
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 06/24/06 05:00 AM
Well posted Dave! (and no, my post is NOT a work of fiction!
)
Posted By: Davros
Re: Chronicles of Narnia - 11/01/08 06:01 AM
I see a new movie did nothing for this topic.