We Have All Been Saved

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/10/06 11:35 PM

Quote:
Let's say you are crossing the street, not paying attention to where you are going. A man pushes you out of the way from an oncoming truck, which would have killed you had he not done so. Thirty years later, once again, you are crossing the street not paying attention, and get killed by an oncoming truck. Does this make it untrue that the old man saved you from death, giving you an extra thirty years of life?

This illustration does not represent what happened to man; the other does. Man was given a second opportunity, not saved from death. The prisoner will only be saved from death if, during the time of postponment of his execution, he obtains pardon from the governor.

As by one man came death and condemnation upon all men, even so came justification of life upon all men. (Rom. 5:18)

As the Spirit of Prophecy puts it, Christ signed the emancipations of the race with His blood. (MH 89) The whole race was emancipated! Hurray! The whole race was restored to favor with God (1SM 343). The reason the race did not immediately perish is because the Plan of Salvation was put into effect, placing the whole race into the hands of Christ (FW 21, 22). Christ is called the Savior of the World (John 4:42; 1John 4:14). Christ redeemed Adam's disgraceful fall and saved the world (God's Amazing Grace 42).

The truck illustration is much more accurate. Christ actually *did* something which actually *benefits* us which actually *cost* Him (and God) something. We have reason to be thankful to Him, infinitely so, not just because of something that *might* happen, but on the basis of something which *has* happened.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/10/06 11:37 PM

Take a look at the following verse in reference to death:

Quote:

Rev. 21:4 and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.

The above Bible quote clearly states that death shall be no more.

After the lost are consumed in the Lake of Fire, there will obviously be no more death, therefore, a person's hair will also be changed from dead cells to living cells at both the translation of the living and the resurrection of the dead.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/11/06 01:28 AM

Daryl
ehm, if human hair was made up of living cells, you would be unable to cut it on danger of bleeding to death. I think it would be fair to assume that in translation or resurrection humans will again be as Adam was created, and we are not told of major remake of his physical body as a result of sin. So either God created life making it replenish itself replacing old cells with new cells, or life on earth has experienced some major evolution/devolution since creation.
I also think its a major stretch to take the verse from Rev 21:4 to mean that human hair cells will one day be redesigned. We cry and mourn when a person dies, but noone ever cried or mourned over a hair that was lost and fell by itself.

Surrender
If no death means no dead individual cells, then Platon and the gnostics where right declaring the human body a prison of the soul that should be done away with to reach perfecton. It is not only human hair that starts as living cells, but more than half of the dust you vaccume each week is skin cells dropped from those who live in your house, every blood cell is exchanged every (I think it is)72 hours, bone cells like hair cells are born only to fill up with fibres/calcium and die for the strengthening of the body. In fact all cells with the possible exception of nerve cells are exchanged more or less often during a normal life span. If the ressurection body works differently from this in any major way, it would appear that the body given to Adam cannot have been that good after all if the entire design has to be discarded.

/Thomas

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/11/06 01:45 AM

Quote:

Take a look at the following verse in reference to death:

Quote:

Rev. 21:4 and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.

The above Bible quote clearly states that death shall be no more.

After the lost are consumed in the Lake of Fire, there will obviously be no more death, therefore, a person's hair will also be changed from dead cells to living cells at both the translation of the living and the resurrection of the dead.

All I can advise is that we are required to think through the implications of what we say instead of just saying that which will strengthen what we already believe. As Galileo said, "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same god who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." If we have been poorly taught by our theologians we are under no obligation to perpetuate falsehoods.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/11/06 01:57 AM

Quote:

Tom, I disagree. DA 764 is not an interpretation of EW 294. Instead, it is new information. As with any other inspired author Jesus provided Sister White with new details to help flesh out her earlier visions. New light never contradicts old light.

I'm not getting this. Both the vision and the explanation are dealing with the same thing: the destruction of the wicked. It's only new information in that she hadn't written it before she wrote it. It's not talking about a different event. It's explaining the event. There's no contradiction between DA 764 and the EW vision because the DA 764 statement is explaining the same thing the EW vision is about.

Here's an analogy. In Revelation it talks about there being a red dragon in heaven with heads and horns. EGW explains what this vision means. In her explanation she doesn't speak of a literal red dragon with literal heads and horns. She is not undoing or contradicting John's vision in any way. She's explaining it.

For you to insist that the vision is literal, not only would make new light contradict old light, as you put it, it would paint God's character in an unflattering way. It leads to the idea that God causes people excruciating pain by casting them in molten lava, or something like that (or heaves the molten lava on them) and then supernaturally keeps the people alive for somewhere from a few moments to many hours so they can suffer whatever God deems is sufficient. What a barbarous picture! Where is anything remotely like this to be seen in life or character of Jesus Christ, whose very purpose was to reveal God's character to us, while here in the flesh?

Ellen White, on the other hand, wrote that it is the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, which destroys the wicked (DA 108). How, in your paradigm, can the same thing which gives life to the righteous destroy the wicked?

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/11/06 03:55 AM

Darius,

What's so hard about understanding the words from the Bible that states, and I quote, "death shall be no more"?

That's what the Bible says, and I believe what the Bible says.

What's there to interpret about that, complex-wise, or other-wise?

Darius, I don't know what your theology is, however, I fear it is a lot more complex than the straight and clear words of the "death shall be no more" statement of John the revelator.

As I said before, and I say it respectfully, but bluntly, I will go with the clear words of both the Bible and EGW over the confusing and complex words I am hearing from you in just about every topic.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/11/06 04:02 AM

As far as this topic goes, which I want us to get back into and stick to, the following are other clear words from the Bible that tells me, without any need of complex interpretation, that we have not all been saved:

Quote:

Rev. 20:7 And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them.

Those who have been devoured have not been saved.

Posted By: Surrender

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/11/06 05:45 AM

Quote:

Surrender
If no death means no dead individual cells, then Platon and the gnostics where right declaring the human body a prison of the soul that should be done away with to reach perfecton. . . . If the ressurection body works differently from this in any major way, it would appear that the body given to Adam cannot have been that good after all if the entire design has to be discarded.

/Thomas

We are to reach perfection in this life in character - love God; love each other. Perfection of body isn't a part of that as God has some (I believe) in unperfect bodies allowing Christ to work in them to will and to do His good pleasure. My point is a statement sounding "very sure" was made about a resurrected body in the new earth that we know nothing about. Eye has not seen nor ear heard . . . just speculation. Rather than answering my question, Darius says As Galileo said, "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same god who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." A statement based on a "feeling" apparently given to him by a god rather than supported by God's inspired word.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/11/06 05:58 AM

Quote:

Those who have been devoured have not been saved.

They had been saved, but they used their salvation to live for self, which can only lead to death. Of course, the first "saved" here is speaking corporately. Individually they chose to use their salvation poorly, choosing to be die.

Here's an analogy. The slaves were freed in the emancipation proclamation. If they chose to, they could continue with their master, as if they had never been freed. This is, unfortunately, what many choose to do.

I'm only bringing this up because it is important that we remember that Christ actually accomplished something for every person, at great cost to Himself, and tremendous self-sacrificing love. He must be glorified for this. The same applies to the Father as well.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/11/06 02:34 PM

Quote:

Darius,

What's so hard about understanding the words from the Bible that states, and I quote, "death shall be no more"?

That's what the Bible says, and I believe what the Bible says.

What's there to interpret about that, complex-wise, or other-wise?

Darius, I don't know what your theology is, however, I fear it is a lot more complex than the straight and clear words of the "death shall be no more" statement of John the revelator.

When someone tells you "Look out!" how do you know whether you should poke your head out the window or pull back into the building? Do you think the Bible is straight and clear when it says "the earth is fixed?" The fact is that you do not follow the Bible the way you wish us to think you do. You use the Bible to support your beliefs. One day you will see the danger in that. Ask yourself what kind of death John was speaking of in that passage you keep quoting.

Posted By: Surrender

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/11/06 05:18 PM

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Here's an analogy.

Here's another analogy I thought was great that was shared with me from the book "A Heart Ablaze" by John Bevere:

"Let's say I lived near a volcanic mountain. An announcement is made that it will erupt in the next twenty-four hours. Without means of transportation I could in no way escape because I could not get far enough away from the mountain on foot in that twenty-four hour period. Without an automobile I am doomed. In seeing my need a generous and loving person knocks on my door, gives me a car, puts the keys in my hand, and says, "The car is yours, You are now saved."

I rejoice that I have been saved. Being almost penniless, I could have never bought the automobile. This person has freely given me the automobile that is going to carry me to safety. I call my friends and excitedly tell them, "I have been saved! A very compassionate person has given me an automobile to get out of this disaster. Isn't it wonderful?" I then dig out my maps, and I even buy a book telling me how to drive more proficiently.

However, for the next twenty-four hours I remain in the house. I fail to get into the car to drive to freedom. The volcano erupts, and I am swept away to destruction. The gift that would lead to my freedom was provided, but I just celebrated it and took no action. Afterward, all who knew my position and what I had received would say, "He received the automobile in vain."

In the same way, to receive God's grace in vain would mean that He has given us the power to walk free from the snares of this worls through holiness, but we neglect it." (pp. 97,9)

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/11/06 06:00 PM

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/11/06 06:11 PM

Regarding cells dying in the New Earth have you considered the food that we will be eating there? Do the food cells die in our stomachs? Or, will they continue to live inside of us? As we chomp up food and swallow it does it live or die? Will we eliminate waste in the New Earth like we do now? If so, is it dead or alive? Is it right to assume food cells are dead if we eat them?

Tom, Jesus did not save everyone on the cross in the sense that He granted everyone eternal life in the New Earth. Granting the human race probationary time to accept or reject Him is not the same as saving everyone. Jesus saved no one on the cross. Jesus saved no one while He was resting in the grave. In fact, if He hadn’t raised Himself from the grave every one of us would have been lost in our sins.

Romans
4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

1 Corinthians
15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.
15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Jesus earned the right to offer us eternal life in the New Earth when He died, rose, and returned to the throne of God. But He did not earn the right to save us against our will and choice. He made salvation from sin and the second death available to everyone who will comply with the conditions of salvation, namely, 1) die to self, 2) awake to rigtheousness, and 3) walk in the Spirit while abiding in Jesus.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/11/06 07:19 PM

Tom, Jesus did not save everyone on the cross in the sense that He granted everyone eternal life in the New Earth.

Eternal life is not something granted in the New Earth, but it is given to us here and now. "He that has the Son has life." "He that believes in me shall never die." "I write this things that you may know that you have eternal life." Corporate salvation is not dealing with this, however.

Granting the human race probationary time to accept or reject Him is not the same as saving everyone.
It is in the corporate sense. Notice that Christ is called "The Savior of the world" by John. The Spirit of Prophecy tells us that Christ saved the world.

Jesus saved no one on the cross.

It would be helpful if you defined how you are using the word "saved."

Jesus saved no one while He was resting in the grave. In fact, if He hadn’t raised Himself from the grave every one of us would have been lost in our sins.

Romans
4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

1 Corinthians
15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.
15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Jesus earned the right to offer us eternal life in the New Earth when He died, rose, and returned to the throne of God.

Jesus not only offered eternal life before He returned to the throne of God, He gave it. All who believed in Christ before He returned to the throne of God already had it. A number of humans were already in heaven ready to meet Jesus when He returned. There was never an issue of Jesus having to earn a right to give away something we have always had access to. As Jesus said in John 17:4, eternal life is knowing God. This has always been everyone's privilege.

But He did not earn the right to save us against our will and choice.

This is not something which it would be possible to earn the right to do. The whole concept doesn't make sense.

He made salvation from sin and the second death available to everyone who will comply with the conditions of salvation, namely, 1) die to self, 2) awake to rigtheousness, and 3) walk in the Spirit while abiding in Jesus.

To know God is eternal life. Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. He gives us eternal life by giving us Himself. The only way anyone can be lost is to resist the light shining from the cross which leads us to repentance.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/11/06 07:33 PM

Tom, where did Sister White say that her DA 764 statement is an explanation of her EW 294, 295 and GC 672-674 statements regarding the punishment and destruction of the wicked in the lake of fire? Since she does not say this anywhere in her writings I am led to believe that the different insights agree and harmonize, that is, the DA quote does not require us to interpret the EW and GC quotes symbolically.

Of course the ideas harmonize. DA 764 explains exactly what is happening. It is in your view that there is conflict. According to her, the light of the glory of God which gives life to the righteous destroys the wicked. According to you, God heaves molten lava upon them, causing them excruciating pain up to many hours while supernaturally keeping them alive until His thirst for vengeance is satisfies, and then He kills them.

All of the above is true. Both dynamics are at work in the lake of fire. God’s consuming presence alongside hellfire and brimstone work together to punish and destroy the wicked in the lake of fire. I see no other option.

The other option is simply believe the description in DA 764.

Without Sister White’s inspired consent we do not have the authority to symbolically interpret her clear and consistent descriptions of the punishment and destruction of the wicked in the lake of fire.

There's not issue of authority. God gave us "permission" to interpret inspired writers when He gave us brains. All of do the same thing. We reason through inspired writings and put things together in a way that makes sense to us. There is no other way of doing this. We are all dependent upon the paradigm we currently have in order to make things fit. Your paradigm features a God who thirsts for vengeance, who is the author of death, who made sin inevitable, and so you interpret things to fit into your paradigm. My paradigm is that all we can know about God was revealed in the life and character of His Son while He lived amongst us, so I interpret things to fit that paradigm. "Chacun à son goût."

As to whether or not Jesus must use divine power to punish the wicked in the lake of fire consider the following insight from GC 673: “The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.” Jesus makes or causes Satan to suffer for the sins of the saved, He makes him to suffer in the flames longer than other wicked sinners.

She also states that Satan will suffer for the sins he has caused upon the wicked. This isn't something arbitrary. It's inevitable that Satan should suffer for the things he has caused, just like everyone else will. Guilt causes suffering.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/14/06 01:43 AM

TE - Your paradigm features a God who thirsts for vengeance, who is the author of death, who made sin inevitable, and so you interpret things to fit into your paradigm.

MM - Tom, once again we must agree to disagree. Your characterization of the view I have embraced of punsihment and destruction in the lake of fire is different than the one subscibe to. Please quote me instead of yourself when representing the view I believe in. Thank you.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/14/06 05:33 AM

Here is my statement of your position, and your response:

TE - When the wicked are resurrected, God will cast them into a lake of fire, something like molten lava, which He will keep them supernaturally alive to suffer by being scalded, or boiled, until they pay by physical suffering for each sin they have committed. The righteous who witness this will be rejoice to see this happen, even when it involves their children or other loved ones. Holy angels who witness the suffering of the wicked will rejoice. God will rejoice in the suffering of our loved ones.

MM - Correct. The lake of fire, though, is caused by Jesus raining down fire upon the unsaved sinners. They suffer in proportion to the sins they committed. They worse the sins the more severe the suffering. Some are suffer fewer stripes, others more - depending on their sinfulness. I cannot understand how we will rejoice with the angels, but the Bible and the SOP make it clear we will.

You seem to be indicating that you now disagree with my restatement of your position. In what way has your view changed?

If you tell me your view has changed, I will gladly quote that instead. If you will write your own summary of your position, which includes the elements I listed, I would be happy to quote that too.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/15/06 06:28 PM

Tom, you have extracted one part of a very long discussion regarding this matter. If you insist on sharing the view I have adopted, please consider the following explanation:

The lake of fire is caused by Jesus raining down fire upon unsaved sinners. The wicked suffer physically and emotionally in proportion to the sins they have committed. Some suffer fewer “stripes”, while others suffer more. Satan suffers the most. Just exactly how Jesus causes the wicked to suffer according to their sinfulness is not clear to me at this time. Nor can I understand how or why we will rejoice with Jesus and the holy angels over the punishment and destruction of sin and sinners in the lake of fire, especially as it relates to our loved ones, but the Bible and the SOP make it clear that we will.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/15/06 09:20 PM

As to the rejoicing over the death of the wicked, I think Denborg's explanation was clear and easy to understand. There's really no mystery about it. The rejoicing is over the end of sin and the establishment of righteousness, the vindication of God's character, not over the suffering or death of God's wayward children.

It seems you are changing your mind over a crucial aspect of my statement of your position, which is this part:

Quote:

God will cast them into a lake of fire, something like molten lava, which He will keep them supernaturally alive to suffer by being scalded, or boiled, until they pay by physical suffering for each sin they have committed.

In the original response, you agreed with this, with the only comment on this being that you stated that the molten lava or whatever it is was something which God rained down upon them from heaven.

Whether the molten lava comes down from above or they get tossed into is of but small import. The important part that I'm interested in is if you believe that God will supernaturally keep the wicked alive so they can be boiled alive for a long enough time to pay in physical suffering for their sins. Before you agreed with this, but in this most recent post of yours you seem to be saying that you have changed your mind and are no longer sure of this. Am I correct about this? Or do you think the same way you were before, and the only thing you are clarifying is that you are not sure how God supernaturally keeps them physically alive so they can be boiled or scalded?

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/25/06 09:40 AM

Quote:
The important part that I'm interested in is if you believe that God will supernaturally keep the wicked alive so they can be boiled alive for a long enough time to pay in physical suffering for their sins.
Unquote.

But that is what I heard among SDA’s, what I read in the SOP and what I believe.

Why? Are you not agreeing with this? Why are you not agreeing? Does it give an implication that God is not soo loving and kind as you think?

In His love

JamesS

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/25/06 04:31 PM

It sounds rather barbaric, James, don't you think? For God to keep people alive supernaturally so they can be boiled alive?

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/25/06 04:40 PM

Quote:

Just exactly how Jesus causes the wicked to suffer according to their sinfulness is not clear to me at this time.

Do you think it is possible that the physical and emotional suffering you mentioned is caused by the light of the glory of God, rather than by being boiled alive? I see you now say how Jesus causes this is not clear to you. I'm wondering if what I'm asking is a viable possibility from your perspective. Do you think it is possible that when the fire which comes down from heaven to destroy the wicked descends that the wicked will already have emontionally and physically paid for their sins? If the answer is no, then I think we're back to the scenario where God supernaturally preserves them so they can be boiled alive, aren't we?

Regarding the rejoicing at the destruction of the wicked, it has been suggested (I think by Denbor) that what God and His friends are rejoicing over is not over the destruction of the wicked, but over the fact that sin will be no more. Does this make sense to you? Do you think that God and the loved ones of the wicked will not be weeping over their demise? Do you not have any loved ones in an unsaved condition? Does the thought of their eternal destruction cause an emotion of rejoicing within you, or one of sorrow? Assuming it's the latter, and given that our characters will not change when Jesus comes again, do you think it is likely that our feelings in this respect would flip flop?

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/25/06 07:06 PM

Holding on to barbaric images of the Creator of the Universe is clear evidence of not knowing Him/Her.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/26/06 02:34 AM

Quote:

Tom: The important part that I'm interested in is if you believe that God will supernaturally keep the wicked alive so they can be boiled alive for a long enough time to pay in physical suffering for their sins.

Quote:

James: But that is what I heard among SDA’s, what I read in the SOP and what I believe.

Why? Are you not agreeing with this? Why are you not agreeing? Does it give an implication that God is not soo loving and kind as you think?

People tend to read according to the vengeance that is in them. This our heavenly Father desires to exchange for his grace. Let us read according to the grace of his holy spirit, and the fruit thereof.

It should be very self-evident that any lessons or retributions or whatever you will that the lost are supposed to get out of being boiled alive would be entirely lost and useless, since their only end is death. So if God should do such a thing as is proposed here it would only be for the purpose of satisfying revengeful lust of those who will remain alive. This is not the kind of kingdom of heaven Christ revealed.

The controversy between good and evil, between life and death, still needs to come home to many hearts.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/26/06 05:24 AM

John, the idea that people have as to why the wicked must be punished is not for the purpose of satisfying their own revengeful lust, but to satisfy God's justice, or, to use the words of some, God's "thirst for violence." This is equivalent to what you're saying though, since people see God according to their own character.

"With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful; with an upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright; With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward." (Ps. 18:25, 26)

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/26/06 04:38 PM

Quote:

So if God should do such a thing as is proposed here it would only be for the purpose of satisfying revengeful lust of those who will remain alive.

God is one of those remaining alive and would have to 'live with' what was done to the lost ones. So while this sinful world is thinking itself justified by God in its thirst for violence; there is the kingdom of heaven that Christ brought which belies it.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/26/06 07:33 PM

I do not doubt that Jesus will use literal fire to punish the wicked according to their sinfulness. The Bible and SOP is clear. What I'm not clear about is how Jesus keeps them alive during the time they are suffering according to their sinfulnss. Why they do not die immediately is not clear to me. Whether your view or the one I have adopted is right doesn't change what I'm not clear about. I also believe God's glory contributes to the suffering they experience until they die.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/26/06 07:39 PM

PS - I don't have as much time to post during the summer months as I do during the rest of the year.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/26/06 10:51 PM

Ok, so back to my original statement:

Quote:

When the wicked are resurrected, God will cause fire to rain upon them, causing them to be cast into a lake of fire, something like molten lava, in which He will keep them supernaturally alive (although how God does this is unclear) to suffer by being scalded, or boiled, until they pay by physical suffering for each sin they have committed. The righteous who witness this will rejoice to see this happen, even when it involves their children or other loved ones. Holy angels who witness the suffering of the wicked will rejoice. God will rejoice in the suffering of our loved ones. How or why this rejoicing occurs is unclear.

I altered it slightly, so it now says, "God will cause fire to rain upon them, causing them to be cast into a lake of fire" rather than "God will cast them into a lake of fire." I also added the parenthetical phrases to make clear you do not understand how God supernaturally keeps the wicked alive so they can be boiled, nor why or how God and others rejoice in their suffering.

I think I've represented your thought perfectly now, as the three clarifications you made about my statement of your position were:
a)The lake of fire is caused by God raining fire down upon the wicked.
b)How God keeps them supernatually alive is not clear to you.
c)How or why there is rejoicing in their suffering is not clear to you.

Do I have it exactly right?

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/26/06 10:58 PM

Quote:

So if God should do such a thing as is proposed here it would only be for the purpose of satisfying revengeful lust of those who will remain alive. This is not the kind of kingdom of heaven Christ revealed.

You're right. For some reason I was excluding God from those who remain alive. I guess that "remain" caused me to disregard God in my thinking.

You're right in asserting that this is not the kind of kingdom which Christ revealed.

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/27/06 06:41 AM

Tom:

It sounds rather barbaric, James, don't you think? For God to keep people alive supernaturally so they can be boiled alive?

Darius:
Holding on to barbaric images of the Creator of the Universe is clear evidence of not knowing Him/Her

Unquote

Quoted from Daryl, posted Sat May 20 2006 11:06 PM in Destruction of the wicked topic:
The following EGW quote shows they were not already dead until they are completely consumed in the lake of fire:

Quote:
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Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

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Unquote.

As I said I have read it somewhere in the SOP and I heard among SDA's, now I see that EGW who has the barbaric thought and taught other people the same.

That is why I never use EGW quotes in my 600+ posts here for I think I have read a lot of contradiction in here writings.

In His love

James S

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/27/06 07:09 AM

Don't be too quick to judge, James! In Ellen White's most detailed description of the destruction of the wicked she writes:

Quote:

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)

Earlier in the Desire of Ages she writes:

Quote:

To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them....The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.

In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God. (DA 108)

She makes very clear that what destroys the wicked is not literal fire, but the light of glory of God, and that this same light gives life to the rightoues. Literal fire couldn't do this, could it?

I disagree that her writings are contradictory, but believe, just as with Scripture, you need to compare different texts to get the complete picture.

But this doesn't explain a very confusing thing. Why would post something from someone you believe is contradictory to substantiate a barbaric belief? What sense does that make?

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/27/06 11:55 AM

But this doesn't explain a very confusing thing. Why would post something from someone you believe is contradictory to substantiate a barbaric belief? What sense does that make?

Unquote.

Because that belief is based on her writings. Who else could give a view that is not written and mentioned in the Scripture but believed as the truth equal to the Scripture? EGW.

In His love

James S

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/27/06 03:25 PM

Regarding the writings of EGW, I don't want this to go any further off topic than it already has.

All I am going to say here is that there are people who say the same thing about the Bible as you and others have said about the writings of EGW.

Any further discussion on this here will be made into a new topic.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/28/06 03:05 AM

James, I'm not following what you're saying, I'm sorry. If you think EGW is contradictory in her writings, then you should use Scripture to support your convictions. It doesn't make any sense for you to use her writings in this case.

You may have noticed that I choose to respond to others based on whatever source they are using, so if you build a case based on Scripture, I will respond with Scripture. If you build a case based on the Spirit of Prophecy, I will respond with Spirit of Prophecy quotes. This is because I believe the things which I believe to be true can be substantiated in either way.

Regarding the destruction of the wicked, I presented evidence from both the Scriptures as well as the Spirit of Prophecy to support my position. Based on what you have written, it is not at all clear to me whether you agree with my position or not. You speak of a view that is not written in Scripture. Are you talking about the position which I am arguing is not found in her writings either? So does this mean you are agreeing with the position I have shared?

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/28/06 10:09 AM

Tom.

You see that I have opposed your view using the Scripture alone and my logic. But I could use EGW to counter your view when I think so,

I have been taught this “barbaric” idea as an SDA, I have read in EGW books translated in my language this “barbaric” idea, so, as an SDA, I though this is the legal view of the SDA church which become my view ever since I left my Catholic church..

And now here you and Darius and others said that this idea is barbaric and is not EGW teaching. So I confronted your idea with EGW quotes borrowing Daryl quotation, showing you that indeed this barbaric idea is “her very own” view that I was taught, accept and believe, which stand in contradiction with what you have proposed here.

By denying her view, is it not you and others that are contrary with her in this specific particular quote? Or, as usual do you have always a solution for this?

Some times a passage must be taken as literal and some times not. I take what EGW said as literal, as so I was taught, so I read, understood and heard among SDA’s.

I knew and had the same feeling and thought as you and others, that this idea look barbaric and has no mercy or love in it, but I think, this is what SDA believe and I could accept it since it is just the wages the wicked sown.

Otherwise hell loosed it power, who would be afraid of death in hell when it happened in a second or part of a second? And when Hell loosed it power, heaven loose it appeal. Who wants to go to heaven where everything is based on faith while the facts and realities of the world is much more fascinating and interesting and satisfying? Maybe heaven would be a boring life full with everyday prayers and singing and drinking water all the day and eat fruit all your life and listening to the music of worship all your life. What can I offer to worldly people if hell lost it power? Are they interested in eternal life which is a boring life to them? Better die than living a boring life and better enjoy your life here on earth as far and as much as you can while you live.

So, I must admit that the vision of my body burned for days or weeks in hell till nothing left, mean while till the smallest part left I still feel the pain, really makes me think to end there and heaven got more appeal. Imagine, just putting off my cigarette on my palm already sent such pain to my brain, more over to be burned alive for days where the pain remains till the last portion of my body left.

So, this barbaric vision is a good idea to share the Gospel of Christ thank EGW vision, don’t change it.

In His love

James S

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/29/06 02:51 AM

James, to be clear, it is this statement which I asked you was barbaric:

"The important part that I'm interested in is if you believe that God will supernaturally keep the wicked alive so they can be boiled alive for a long enough time to pay in physical suffering for their sins."

There's certainly not Ellen White statement which says this. You have not produced any statement of hers which says this.

Quote:

Otherwise hell loosed it power, who would be afraid of death in hell when it happened in a second or part of a second? And when Hell loosed it power, heaven loose it appeal.

Are you being serious here? Heaven loses its appeal if hell is not barbaric? Is that the idea?

Isn't the appeal of heaven Jesus Christ? To know God and be with Him for eternity, as well as with those who know and love Him?

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/29/06 03:41 AM

Quote:

Maybe heaven would be a boring life full with everyday prayers and singing and drinking water all the day and eat fruit all your life and listening to the music of worship all your life. What can I offer to worldly people if hell lost it power? Are they interested in eternal life which is a boring life to them? Better die than living a boring life and better enjoy your life here on earth as far and as much as you can while you live.
So, I must admit that the vision of my body burned for days or weeks in hell till nothing left, mean while till the smallest part left I still feel the pain, really makes me think to end there and heaven got more appeal. Imagine, just putting off my cigarette on my palm already sent such pain to my brain, more over to be burned alive for days where the pain remains till the last portion of my body left

James, Does being burned for weeks make the boring life for the present and the boring life for all eternity, more appealing?

I think that at least you can have 'fun' now for a season, then suffer for a week or two and be over with it. Why suffer through all eternity in a boring place just to save a week or so of misery?

Do not be confused. The master whom one serves is the one that pays.

By the way, heaven is not the way you painted it. Perhaps it is the false vision of heaven and God that is keeping them in sin; not the lack of the vision of hell.

Christ came to deliver from that hell of which Satan has/had power:

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

According to Christ and Paul, this fear of hell or death, is Satan's power to hold man in bondage to sin and death.

Christ said:
Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Is God jelous, that Satan should kill and destroy? Is God doing all this just so that he himself could kill and destroy? Did Christ die so that he could gain that power; the power to kill and destroy?

"I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/29/06 02:22 PM

Quote.

Are you being serious here? Heaven loses its appeal if hell is not barbaric? Is that the idea? Isn't the appeal of heaven Jesus Christ? To know God and be with Him for eternity, as well as with those who know and love Him?

Unquote.

In fact, for many people that live by the flesh, who lives in the way of the world, Jesus Christ is a vague thing. When you asked them whether they want to go to heaven, they said “Yes, of course”, but they could not stop their night life, beer time, dance time, gambling, etc. Those who wildly dance in a café at Saturday night with beer in their hands are those who sang “hallelujah” the hardest in their church at Sunday morning. Many of them didn’t go to the cafes, but gambling at home with their friends and neighbors every day every night till Sunday morning, just stopped take a bath and go to church.

Two months ago before repenting, I used to go to cafes and gambling for years till morning at my friend home which is used also as a church, which just stopped 15 minutes before the communion start at Sunday morning or Wednesday evening. What a life?

To them I use two methods of evangelism:

1. Telling them that if Jesus allow them to enter heaven, after the latest one month stay they will ask Jesus to be returned to their home on earth, because they missed what they are used to live with; dancing, alcohol and beverages drinks, women in sexy clothing, gambling, rock music, which they could not found in heaven.
2. Telling them that they would be burned in hell and feel the pain till the last portion of their body (not for eternity which is their belief).

If Jesus is not of interest, let’s be burned in hell become their interest.

You must have always a plan B when preaching the Gospel, one of it will take their interest. Mostly these people want to go to heaven but they think they could reach it with living a worldly life for the flesh.

Eternal life what appeals them, but they want to get it with having fun and enjoy their life in the way of the flesh and of the world. Jesus Christ? Just a vague person that loves them and died for them. What they are afraid of is HELL.

In His love

James S

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/29/06 04:46 PM

James, just because you convince people does not mean that what you told them is not false.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/29/06 05:42 PM

Quote:

2. Telling them that they would be burned in hell and feel the pain till the last portion of their body (not for eternity which is their belief).

Well, I don't see your point at all, James. If burning torment in hell forever is not getting them concerned enough, why would shortening the time to a couple of weeks or so get them more interested in heaven? Surely suffering for eternity sounds worse then a couple of weeks!

Really, what kind of heaven is it, when the king of it makes hell?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/30/06 05:54 PM

James, I totally agree with the view of heaven and hellfire you are sharing here. Thank you for holding fast to the truth. You are not alone in the truth. Sister White concurs completely. God uses two main sources to motivate us to obey Him – 1) Heaven, and 2) Hellfire. Here’s how she put it in Steps to Christ:

SC 21, 22
Oh, let us contemplate the amazing sacrifice that has been made for us! Let us try to appreciate the labor and energy that Heaven is expending to reclaim the lost, and bring them back to the Father's house. Motives stronger, and agencies more powerful, could never be brought into operation; the exceeding rewards for right-doing, the enjoyment of heaven, the society of the angels, the communion and love of God and His Son, the elevation and extension of all our powers throughout eternal ages--are these not mighty incentives and encouragements to urge us to give the heart's loving service to our Creator and Redeemer? {SC 21.3}

And, on the other hand, the judgments of God pronounced against sin, the inevitable retribution, the degradation of our character, and the final destruction, are presented in God's word to warn us against the service of Satan. {SC 21.4}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/30/06 06:11 PM

No one can read the following explanation and maintain the idea that hellfire symbolizes the glory of God, that God does not punish and then destroy the wicked with literal fire.

GC 539-545
God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. The death of the spotless Son of God testifies that "the wages of sin is death," that every violation of God's law must receive its just retribution. Christ the sinless became sin for man. He bore the guilt of transgression, and the hiding of His Father's face, until His heart was broken and His life crushed out. All this sacrifice was made that sinners might be redeemed. In no other way could man be freed from the penalty of sin. And every soul that refuses to become a partaker of the atonement provided at such a cost must bear in his own person the guilt and punishment of transgression. {GC 539.3}

Let us consider what the Bible teaches further concerning the ungodly and unrepentant, whom the Universalist places in heaven as holy, happy angels. {GC 540.1}

"I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely." Revelation 21:6. This promise is only to those that thirst. None but those who feel their need of the water of life, and seek it at the loss of all things else, will be supplied. "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be My son." Verse 7. Here, also, conditions are specified. In order to inherit all things, we must resist and overcome sin. {GC 540.2}

The Lord declares by the prophet Isaiah: "Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him." "Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him." Isaiah 3:10, 11. "Though a sinner do evil an hundred times," says the wise man, "and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before Him: but it shall not be well with the wicked." Ecclesiastes 8:12, 13. And Paul testifies that the sinner is treasuring up unto himself "wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; who will render to every man according to his deeds;" "tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that doeth evil." Romans 2:5, 6,9. {GC 540.3}

"No fornicator, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God." Ephesians 5:5, A.R.V. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord." Hebrews 12:14. "Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." Revelation 22:14, 15. {GC 541.1}

God has given to men a declaration of His character and of His method of dealing with sin. "The Lord God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty." Exodus 34:6, 7. "All the wicked will He destroy." "The transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off." Psalms 145:20; 37:38. The power and authority of the divine government will be employed to put down rebellion; yet all the manifestations of retributive justice will be perfectly consistent with the character of God as a merciful, long-suffering, benevolent being. {GC 541.2}

God does not force the will or judgment of any. He takes no pleasure in a slavish obedience. He desires that the creatures of His hands shall love Him because He is worthy of love. He would have them obey Him because they have an intelligent appreciation of His wisdom, justice, and benevolence. And all who have a just conception of these qualities will love Him because they are drawn toward Him in admiration of His attributes. {GC 541.3}

The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." God
executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. He would make them happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character. He surrounds them with the tokens of His love, He grants them a knowledge of His law, and follows them with the offers of His mercy; but they despise His love, make void His law, and reject His mercy. While constantly receiving His gifts, they dishonor the Giver; they hate God because they know that He abhors their sins. The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will? {GC 541.4}

Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests? {GC 542.1}

Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. {GC 542.2}

Like the waters of the Flood the fires of the great day declare God's verdict that the wicked are incurable. They have no disposition to submit to divine authority. Their will has been exercised in revolt; and when life is ended, it is too late to turn the current of their thoughts in the opposite direction, too late to turn from transgression to obedience, from hatred to love. {GC 543.1}

In sparing the life of Cain the murderer, God gave the world an example of what would be the result of permitting the sinner to live to continue a course of unbridled iniquity. Through the influence of Cain's teaching and example, multitudes of his descendants were led into sin, until "the wickedness of man was great in the earth" and "every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." "The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence." Genesis 6:5, 11. {GC 543.2}

In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom. Through the deceptive power of Satan the workers of iniquity obtain sympathy and admiration, and are thus constantly leading others to rebellion. It was so in Cain's and in Noah's day, and in the time of Abraham and Lot; it is so in our time. It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace. {GC 543.3}

"The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23. While life is the inheritance of the righteous, death is the portion of the wicked. Moses declared to Israel: "I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil." Deuteronomy 30:15. The death referred to in these scriptures is not that pronounced upon Adam, for all mankind suffer the penalty of his transgression. It is "the second death" that is placed in contrast with everlasting life. {GC 544.1}

In consequence of Adam's sin, death passed upon the whole human race. All alike go down into the grave. And through the provisions of the plan of salvation, all are to be brought forth from their graves. "There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust;" "for as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." Acts 24:15; I Corinthians 15:22. But a distinction is made between the two classes that are brought forth. "All that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28, 29. They who have been "accounted worthy" of the resurrection of life are "blessed and holy." "On such the second death hath no power." Revelation 20:6. But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression--"the wages of sin." They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. Since it is impossible for God, consistently with His justice and mercy, to save the sinner in his sins, He deprives him of the existence which his transgressions have forfeited and of which he has proved himself unworthy. Says an inspired writer: "Yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." And another declares: "They shall be as though they had not been." Psalm 37:10; Obadiah 16. Covered with infamy, they sink into hopeless, eternal oblivion. {GC 544.2}

Thus will be made an end of sin, with all the woe and ruin which have resulted from it. Says the psalmist: "Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Thou hast put out their name forever and ever. O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end." Psalm 9:5, 6. John, in the Revelation, looking forward to the eternal state, hears a universal anthem of praise undisturbed by one note of discord. Every creature in heaven and earth was heard ascribing glory to God. Revelation 5:13. There will then be no lost souls to blaspheme God as they writhe in never-ending torment; no wretched beings in hell will mingle their shrieks with the songs of the saved. {GC 545.1}

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/30/06 11:43 PM

No one can read the following explanation and not realize that hellfire symbolizes the glory of God:

Quote:

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)

Quote:

In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them....The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.(DA 107, 108)

It is the glory of God, not literal fire, which destroys sin. Also note that THE SAME THING which causes the destruction of the wicked GIVES LIFE! to the righteous.

Posted By: Will

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/31/06 01:17 AM

Quote:

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Is God's glory composed of brimstone?

Quote:

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Are those whose names are not found in the book of life cast into God's glory?

Quote:

Revelation 20:9
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Are the wicked receiving God's glory here too? Or is it a metaphor, or does it represent something John didnt understand so he used "fire" to describe it instead of bright light? or Peter could have used "changed" instead of "fervent heat"?

God Bless,
Will

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/31/06 05:06 AM

Quote.
James, just because you convince people does not mean that what you told them is not false.
Unquote.

I believe I would not share falsehood to my brethren, but some times a half of a truth is much better than all the truth, for that is all he could take that time.

But by the way, do you think that believing God would burn the wicked in hell for a period of time till the 2nd death as the wages of their sin is believing in falsehood? Don’t judge to soon, I see not enough evidence to say it is false.

In His love

James S

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/31/06 05:16 AM

James, for evangelism, why not tell them of a God who so loved them that He gave them His Son.

Will, how do you understand the passages in the Desire of Ages? One other question. You believe there will be a judgment when the wicked will appear before the throne of God, right? When God goes through the experiences of their lives, showing them where they went astray, and where He tried to reach them, do you think they will suffer?

Posted By: Will

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/31/06 05:42 AM

Tom,
I understand that Ellen White points people to Christ, that she has written abundantly to use the Bible as our standard of faith, and the quotes you proved are in direct contradiction to what the Bible says, not just the book of Revelation or what Peter wrote, or what Jesus saidabout the place made for the devil and his angels, or the fact that for some reason unknown to us God has asked specifically that people be wiped off the map, refer to Saul going to destroy the Amalekites, inclcuding their animals, and the reason for that was that a genocide was going to happen, and this nearly occurred when Haman was telling the king the benefits of destroying the Jews, Haman was a descendant of the Amalekites. The wicked will be destroyed, plain and simple. It doesn't take 10 years at a university to put that one together, but it may take 10 years of that type of training to use rhetoric and doubt so that it appears that God wouldn't do such a thing.
MM has used several quotes from the SOP and I dont always agree with him, but I do on this point, and there have been plenty of quotes provided from the Bible, I believe that God will destroy the wicked. Its not something he wants to do, or enjoys doing.
God Bless,
Will

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/31/06 06:47 AM

Will, that doesn't answer my question. I'm asking you how you understand what she wrote in the Desire of Ages. She didn't write anything there that is not in the Bible. We can discuss that in a bit, but first I'd like you to tell me how you understand the passage. Do you see that it is contradicted by Scripture? Your answers seems to imply that you do, but I don't want to misread you.

For your convenience, I'll repost what she wrote here:

Quote:

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)

Quote:

To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them....At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. (DA 107, 108)

I included an extra sentence here to make it clear that Ellen White is explicitly referencing Scripture, the same Scriptures we're discussing, in stating the principle that "the light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked."

Please note that the same thing which gives life to the righteous is what slays the wicked. That's quite a thought, isn't it!

Posted By: Will

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/31/06 09:18 AM

It is quite a thought Tom. Jesus said And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
TO me this tells me the level of how serious God is about not having this (sin) ever happen again, and that doesnt include the fact that its something so remorseful and painful (I believe He did and does suffer regarding our history) that the former things are passed away.
Yes the choice is always up to us, sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness. Its sort of like the phrase "If you sleep with a dog you will get up with fleas", you did it to yourself by your choices. The end result and actual destruction of the wicked is the final judgment.
I believe that the quote you provided is contradictory to whats in the Bible. Thats like me saying that the Biblesays "An eye for an eye" and go out and beat someone up cause the Bible says "an eye for an eye", when the truth of the matter is that we should love our enemies.
God Bless,
Will

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/31/06 04:23 PM

Quote:

I believe that the quote you provided is contradictory to whats in the Bible. Thats like me saying that the Biblesays "An eye for an eye" and go out and beat someone up cause the Bible says "an eye for an eye", when the truth of the matter is that we should love our enemies.

Thank you for your frank answer, Will. So I take it you would prefer to dialog on the basis on Scripture alone, as you do not have confidence in the Spirit of Prophecy, based on your answer.

I find your response her a bit ironic because you correctly suggest that we should love our enemies rather than apply the principle "eye for eye" and "tooth for tooth." The reason this is ironic is that while you say we should do this, you suggest I am being unscriptural in suggesting that God does exactly this! That is, God applies the principle of "love your enemies" rather than "eye for eye" and "tooth for tooth." This is Scriptural! Jesus was the one who taught it, and He is the same yesterday, today and forever. He taught what He lived, which was the essence of His character. To forgive.

I'll just mention one Scripture text for now, and if you're interested we can continue our discussion. Here is the text:

Quote:

Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly.(Isa. 33:14, 15)

Notice that the righteous are able to dwell with "the devouring fire."

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 05/31/06 05:47 PM

How far will you guys go to deny the biblical teaching that we have all been saved?

Posted By: Will

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/01/06 02:16 AM

Tom,
Comments like the one quoted below seem to be a last ditch effort here. I dont agree with your interpretation at all

Quote:

So I take it you would prefer to dialog on the basis on Scripture alone, as you do not have confidence in the Spirit of Prophecy, based on your answer.

Nor do I agree with your interpretation that if God destroys the wicked then He must be a seething ruler using satanic cruelty wanting to fry people etc etc.
Theres no misrepresentation of God's character as you have so painstakingly tried to create a hype about. I dont get it actually, the "it" in your case is, what's your point?
God Bless,
Will

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/01/06 06:12 AM

Will, I quoted a statement from the Spirit of Prophecy, and you wrote:

Quote:

I believe that the quote you provided is contradictory to whats in the Bible.

From this I concluded that you do not have confidence in the Spirit of Prophecy. In what way is this not a completely logical conclusion?

Posted By: Will

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/01/06 07:58 AM

It is not a logical conclusion because nor is it correc. I do not believe your interpretationto be correct, and I should know, I'm the one who said it. How can you apply your perception and make true what I know to be false, especially when I said its not true?
For me the point is moot.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/01/06 05:32 PM

Whether it is correct or not is independent of the logic. Logic has to do with reasoning from premises to conclusions. The premise is based on your statement:

"I believe that the quote you provided is contradictory to what's in the Bible."

From this I concluded that you do not have confidence in the Spirit of Prophecy, since I quoted from the Spirit of Prophecy, and you stated the quote was contrary to Scripture. If the conclusion is wrong, there must be some reason. Please tell me what the reason is.

This is not a moot point. It goes to the heart of the matter. If you have some reason for believing that the quote in the Desire of Ages is contradictory to the Bible, and the reason is something other than a lack of confidence in the Spirit of Prophecy, we need to know what that reason is.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/01/06 11:53 PM

Quote:

How far will you guys go to deny the biblical teaching that we have all been saved?

We have all been saved from what, Darius?

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/01/06 11:57 PM

If I read and understand Will's post correctly, he isn't saying that the EGW quote contradicts the Bible, but rather that your interpretation of that EGW quote contradicts the Bible.

Am I correct on my understanding of your post, Will?

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/02/06 12:11 AM

I suppose that's possible, but that's not what he wrote. He wrote:

Quote:

I believe that the quote you provided is contradictory to what's in the Bible.

The quote says that the light of the glory of God will slay the wicked. That seems to me to be very clear. I don't think I interpreted it, did I? If so, how?

If you're correct, and Will disagrees with my interpretation, I would be interested in how Will thinks I've interpreted the quote incorrectly, and how he thinks the quote should be interpreted.

Posted By: Will

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/02/06 03:03 AM

Thats exactly what I meant Daryl, and I even stated that.

Do you understand the general consensus of the destruction of the wicked as outlined in the Bible Tom, or are you building your theology around certain texts to catapult your theory?

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/02/06 03:08 AM

When we all stop pulling out our pet quotes and allow all the EGW and Bible quotes provided so far to speak to us, we will see that God isn't arbitrary, but rather just in His judgments and in the eventual execution of those judgments.

As far as we have all been saved goes, man was given a period of probation to either accept or reject what Christ has done for all mankind. Only those who accept Him will be saved, as the Bible says in Matthew 24:13, "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Those who reject Him will be lost.

Posted By: Will

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/02/06 03:09 AM

Amen Daryl!

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/02/06 03:21 AM

And how about this one:

Quote:

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Is everybody saved in the above quote? The logical answer is no. Those who believe and are baptized shall be saved. Those who don't believe shall not be saved.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/02/06 03:34 AM

If we are going to consider *all* quotes, then shouldn't we consider these?

Quote:

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)

Quote:

The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. (DA 108)

There are many, many more like these. I've just presented these because I think these are particularly clear.

I do not see any contradiction between the Bible outline and these quotes from the Spirit of Prophecy. I have explained in a detailed fashion how I think things will happen, in the Sin Problem thread, in a way which I think *is* in harmony with all the evidence we have.

It has been suggested that we should take into account all the texts on the destruction of the wicked. I agree with this, and have done so. Rosangela also did, when she was taking part in a similar discussion. John B. has done so, although he has stuck mostly to Scripture. Arthur has just started, and looks to me like he will be doing this. I don't think anyone else has offered any explanation of DA 764 or DA 108. If we are going to consider all the texts, then these need to be considered, right?

In particular, how is it that the same thing which slays the wicked gives life to the righteous? Isn't this a significant fact? I think it is.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/02/06 03:38 AM

Daryl, regarding who will be saved, it depends on what "saved" means. If you mean in terms of who will go to heaven, then you are correct and have chosen a good verse to support your assertion.

However, there is also a sense in which all have been saved, which is evidenced by the fact that Christ is several times referred to as "the Savior of the world" in Scripture, and that the Spirit of Prophecy states a number of times that Christ "saved the world."

I think, when discussing this topic, it would be helpful to make clear what exactly it is that we mean when we say "saved."

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/02/06 03:41 AM

Tom,

Didn't you absorb what I posted regarding God not being arbitrary but just?

I suggest you read it again as your latest post seems like you didn't.

Posted By: kubuli

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/02/06 04:15 AM

Quote:

And how about this one:

Quote:

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Is everybody saved in the above quote? The logical answer is no. Those who believe and are baptized shall be saved. Those who don't believe shall not be saved.

If they are not saved why does it say "shall be damned?" We must not be so eager to prove ourselves right that we do injustice to the text. Consider the context as well as the text.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/02/06 07:12 AM

Daryl, I'm not understanding how, in your view, the following is true:

Quote:

The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. (DA 108)

Would you please explain this to me? The point that I'm particularly interested in is that the same thing which gives life to the righteous is what slays the wicked. How do you see this happening?

You wrote that God is not arbitrary but just, which of course everybody agrees with. I don't see how that explains this quote. Were you intending it to? What exactly is it that I'm not absorbing?

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/02/06 07:57 PM

Tom,

Here is the whole paragtraph of the one sentence you quoted:

Quote:

Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}

And, Tom, I'm not understanding how, in your view, the following is true:

Quote:

Chap. 288 - God Intervenes in Armageddon

A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the Lord hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the Lord. Jer. 25:31.

For six thousand years the great controversy has been in progress; the Son of God and His heavenly messengers have been in conflict with the power of the evil one, to warn, enlighten, and save the children of men. Now all have made their decisions; the wicked have fully united with Satan in his warfare against God. The time has come for God to vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. Now the controversy is not alone with Satan, but with men. "The Lord hath a controversy with the nations"; "He will give them that are wicked to the sword." {Mar 296.1}

The mark of deliverance has been set upon those "that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done." Now the angel of death goes forth, represented in Ezekiel's vision by the men with the slaughtering weapons, to whom the command is given: "Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary." Says the prophet: "They began at the ancient men which were before the house." Ezekiel 9:1-6. The work of destruction begins among those who have professed to be the spiritual guardians of the people. The false watchmen are the first to fall. There are none to pity or to spare. Men, women, maidens, and little children perish together. {Mar 296.2}

"The Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain." Isaiah 26:21. . . .In the mad strife of their own fierce passions, and by the awful outpouring of God's unmingled wrath, fall the wicked inhabitants of the earth--priests, rulers, and people, rich and poor, high and low. "And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried." Jeremiah 25:33. {Mar 296.3}

Such words as "The Lord cometh out of his place to punish..." and "....by the awful outpouring of God's unmingled wrath...." shows two things:

1 - God's punishment and wrath.
2 - Not everyone has been saved from God's punishment and wrath.

If everybody had been saved from God's punishment and wrath, then there wouldn't be anybody for God to punish.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/02/06 09:33 PM

Daryl, I don't think you have answered my question, which is how is it that the same thing which gives life to the righteous slays the wicked?

I'm going to include the paragraph before the one you included, so we can get a fuller context to the sentence I quoted:

Quote:

"I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance," said John; "but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire." Matt. 3:11, R. V., margin. The prophet Isaiah had declared that the Lord would cleanse His people from their iniquities "by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning." The word of the Lord to Israel was, "I will turn My hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin." Isa. 4:4; 1:25. To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Gen. 32: 30.

Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.(DA 108)

I'm guessing (I have to guess because you included no comment with the paragraph you quoted.) that you quoted the paragraph you did because you think I'm taking the sentence I did out of context (?). That is, you think it doesn't apply to the destruction of the wicked? Is my guess correct?

On the assumption that it is, I will provide evidence that this sentence is not being taken out of context. First all not the following:

Quote:

In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them.

This is clearly dealing with the destruction of the wicked, correct? So she is dealing with the destruction of the wicked in what she's saying. She's discussing an overriding principle.

Please also note the following:

Quote:

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)

There's no doubt this is addressing the destruction of the wicked, as that's all she's talking about here, so the subject under discussion cannot possibly be confused with something else. Notice she writes By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them..

I don't see how anyone can miss that the glory of God is a consuming fire. She just said in the sentence before "His very presence is to them a consuming fire." and in the very next sentence "the glory of Him who is love will destroy them."

So from this is it not clear that the glory of God is a consuming fire, and that this fire destroys the wicked?

Now let's come back to the statement in DA 108. "The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked." The only new element to this quote is that the same thing which destroys the wicked gives life to the righteous. Now if we understand that it is indeed the light of the glory of God which destroys the wicked, just as she says it is, it is not difficult to understand how this could give life to the righteous. But if we understand that it is literal fire that destroys the wicked, then we have a problem: How does literal fire give life to the righteous?

Note, by the way, that this is not unlike what we read in Isaiah:

Quote:

Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly. (Isa. 33:14, 15)

I'll get to the Scriptures you quoted a bit later when I get a chance.

Thanks for your reponse!

Tom

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/02/06 10:35 PM

Tom,

I am not disputing any of that.

God can consume the wicked any way He chooses. He obviously will be consuming them by fire. When God is ready, the wicked will be consumed in the Lake of Fire. Until then, or at least until probation closes, the wicked still have a chance to turn to Jesus Christ and repent and be baptized for it is God's desire that all the wicked will repent, however, history has already shown that all of the wicked will not repent. History also shows that most of the wicked will not repent. This fact brings sadness to God.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/02/06 11:02 PM

You say you're not disputing what I wrote, which was that the glory of God is a consuming fire, which gives life to the righteous but destroys the wicked. It follows then that you agree with this? From the rest of what you wrote, this is not clear to me.

While it is true that God can consume the wicked any way He chooses, I think this may give a wrong idea, as if there was more than one possible way the wicked could be destroyed. There isn't. God can only choose to destroy the wicked in a way which is in harmony with His character, and there is only one way by which this is possible, which is the following:

Quote:

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)

The choice of the wicked to be excluded from heaven, and hence destroyed, is voluntary with themselves (GC 542). It has to be, because force is not a principle of God's Government, and God will not put down the rebellion by force.

Quote:

Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. (DA 749)

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/02/06 11:03 PM

In case the preceeding post is not clear as to what I'm asking, it is this. How is it that the wicked are killed? Is it by literal fire, or by the glory of God?

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/02/06 11:34 PM

Tom,

What you posted, quotes and all, doesn't negate the fact that God will only destroy the wicked, the second death, in the Lake of Fire, when He is ready, when all three phases of the Judgment have been completed. Until then, even the wicked dead will rise in the second resurrection, at the end of the 1,000 years, which is the time of the second phase of this Judgment, to face the executive phase of this Judgment. We are presently in the first phase of this Judgment.

This Lake of Fire isn't a symbolical fire, but a real fire, but unlike any other fire, even unlike the fire that burned Sodom & Gomorrah, as this fire will not only consume wicked humans, but also the devil and the other wicked angels. It's also interesting to note that they will not all be consumed all at once. Some will be consumed longer than others depending on their life of sin. Based on this, it is my understanding that the devil will be the last to be completely consumed.

As far as this topic goes, this shows that we have not all been saved in the sense that we have not all been saved to life eternal. Those who will be consumed in the Lake of Fire testifies to this fact.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/03/06 12:53 AM

Daryl, the confidence of your last post leaves the impression that you have been to the future and seen hell in operation. Please explain to us what is the holdup in your view of things. Why has the end not come yet. Please don't say God is waiting for more people to accept Him because the people He would be waiting for are dying and being replaced by new people being born. At this time it seems you are only defending a held position rather than taking a good look at the landscape.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/03/06 12:55 AM

Thank you for your response Daryl.

In this case I'm confused by your statement that you weren't disputing what I wrote. Also I would ask you to please address my earlier post, which I'll summarize here, for your convenience. You may refer back to the post for more detail.

You presented a paragraph, without comment, which contained the sentence "The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked." My guess was that the reason you did this was to make the point that I was taking this statement out of context. I presented an argument that I was not.

The argument was based on:

a.Presenting more of the context of the quote, which showed that she *was* discussing the destruction of the wicked. "In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them."
b.I produced a statement from DA 764, of which there is not doubt she is discussing the destruction of the wicked, which said essentially the same thing: "By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them."

My questions to you still remain:

1.How is it that the same thing which gives life to the righteous destroys the wicked?
2.Is it not clear that it is the glory of God which destroys the wicked, and that this glory is a consuming fire?

Indeed, on 2., I don't see how she could have communicated this idea any more clearly.

Regarding not all being saved, I have never disputed that not all will be saved, using the definition of "saved" as "getting to heaven." My only point has been that there is a sense in which Christ has saved everyone, which is evidenced by the fact that the Scriptures refer to Him as "the Savior of all men" and the Spirit of Prophecy says several times that Christ "saved the world."

I still haven't forgotten about the Scriptures you posted. Later on this evening I'll probably get to them.

I'm hoping you'll answer my questions. I appreciate your participation.

Tom

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/03/06 01:39 AM

In regards to the "The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked" quote, what is the light in reference to here? Understanding this should answer your question.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/03/06 01:51 AM

Light = truth is how I understand it. The glory of God is His character. So the light of the glory of God is referring to the truth about His character.

Please bear in mind that the light of the glory of God gives life to the righteous.

I think it makes sense that the truth about God's character gives life to the righteous because to know God is eternal life. It also makes sense to me that the same truth results in the destruction of the wicked, for the reasons stated in DA 764.

Daryl, there's no way that my understanding what "light" means can answer my question, because my question is how do YOU account for the fact that the same thing that gives life to the righteous slays the wicked.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/03/06 03:40 AM

In light of the other EGW quotes posted so far in this topic, the words "The light of the glory of God", which as you said is God's truth and character, will result in the salvation of the believer through what Christ has done and will result in the ultimate death of the unbeliever through there non-acceptance of what Christ has done.

Posted By: Will

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/03/06 04:28 AM

Tom,
Youstated above to consider all quotes, yet you left out the main theme of the quotes youhave been picking and chhosing from the chapter "It is finished " from desire of Ages:

Quote:

Then the end will come. God will vindicate His law and deliver His people. Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Mal. 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; . . . I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Then "the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be;" "they shall be as though they had not been." Ezek. 28:6-19; Ps. 37:10; Obadiah 16. {DA 763.4}

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

God is going to what to the covering cherub? DOesn't look like the word consume is there. The wicked will be destroyed by fire, they will be cast into the lake of fire as well. Thats how the wicked are going to be slain. This answers the questions you have asked.
How can something that gives life also take away life. You need to check to see what Jesus said about not worrying about those who can kill the body, but the one who can destroy body and soul in hell. That doesn't sound like some metaphor, or analogy of some cryptic parable.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/03/06 05:32 AM

Will, look at the quote! She quotes from Ezekiel, and then explains the meaning. The meaning is "this is not an arbitrary act of power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life....He receives the results of his own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan ... places himself so out of harmony with God that His very presence to to him a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy him.

(I changed the very from third person plural to third person singular to focus on Satan).

Isn't this clear that she is explaining how it is that God will destroy Satan? How could she have made it any clearer?

Tom

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/03/06 05:40 AM

Daryl, I think I've got what your thought. Your thought is that when she says "the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, will slay the wicked" she means "the truth about God's character, which (eventually) gives life to the righteous (when God gives them immortality), will slay the wicked (eventually, when God kills them).

Do I have this right?

Tom

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/03/06 08:11 AM

Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}

This agrees perfectly with what I've been presenting. I could not have presented a better text. In fact, this is the same text I've been presenting, just slightly before it.

Notice she says that Jacob could not endure the revelation of God's presence only because he had repented of sin. This makes it clear that it is sin which is the problem. God's presence doesn't change; it is what it is. What changes is us, and sin is what changes us. Sin makes it so that we cannot bear God's presence. As she puts it, wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. Why? Did God do something arbitrary to destroy them? No, He simply revealed His presence, and noone can endure God's presence while willfully cherishing sin. But those who repent can endure God's presence, without God's doing anything different. The light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked.

I'll think I'll stop here for now and await your response, and consider the others afterwards if you wish.

Tom

Posted By: Will

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/03/06 09:47 AM

Tom,
From what I have read in the Bible, I do not believe your position lines up with what the Bible teaches about the wicked being destroyed. The judgmene t of the wicked is an inevitable fact. I do not belive your theology lines up with what the Bible teaches in thsi aspect. I have seen this by your reluctance to accept the fact that Jesus said that there is a place of gnashing and teeth, that the lake of fire was created for the devil and His angels, the Flood, the desrtruction of Sodom and Gamorrah. What that has to do with God's glory as you say that is what destroys the wicked I have absolutely no idea and do not know how you came to that conclusion.
Have a Happy Sabbath,
Will

Posted By: Avalee

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/03/06 04:05 PM

This is what I read in the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy:

1. At the Second Coming of Jesus all the wicked will be destoyed by His brightness...they will be calling out for the rocks to hide them right?

2. The living saints along with the resurrected saints will ascend to Heaven for 1000 yrs. to judge the wicked.

3. Satan is bound to this earth for that 1000 yrs. Bound meaning he has no one here on earth to tempt any longer...just him and his evil angels.

4. After the 1000 yrs are over the New Jeurusalem willt accend to this Earth along with all the saints and Jesus, etc.

5. Then the wicked will be raised again and Satan will rally them together still trying to take over....but him along with ALL the wicked angels and ALL the wicked people on this earth from all ages who made their choice to serve Satan instead of God will be burn up in the lake of fire. This is when the lake of fire comes into being...not before.

Posted By: Charity

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/03/06 06:33 PM

Along the lines of what Will and Avalee have posted, if the lake of fire was only a revelation of the character of God, (and I agree that it is that) it would not cleanse the earth of its physical impurities and prepare it for the new creation. So while it is probably correct to say the more important dimension of the lake of fire is the revelation of truth, we must also let scripture take its intended meaning and acknowledge that this revelation of truth is no ordinary revelation and is sufficient to burn not only into hearts and minds but to also consume the physical. It is this physical aspect, which most if not all of us acknowledge is less important than the spiritual, that your theory doesn’t account for.

And I have to go on to say that a similar deficiency is evident in your presenting the atonement of Christ as a revelation of the character of God and not acknowledging its personal, substitutionary nature. You claim to present a loving picture of the character of God, but love is defined by both mercy and justice, not in a vacuum. This mercy and justice is that of a Person. It is true that the character of God is what entitles Him to rule; in the symbol of the sanctuary the throne of God represented by the mercy seat is founded four-square on the ark containing the law representing His character. But you err in turning this image upside down and unwittingly placing the ark, or character of God above His thrown or person. In scripture, God is seated in government on the foundation of his character, not in subordination to it. If the only thing that deals with sin is the character of God and not God himself directly then the ark would be above the throne in scripture, but it is not that way. Your view, is IMO a result of presenting only one side of these things, so, Tom aren't you doing violence to the very truth, the character of God, you claim to be contending for?

Posted By: Rosangela

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/03/06 08:51 PM

Quote:

So while it is probably correct to say the more important dimension of the lake of fire is the revelation of truth, we must also let scripture take its intended meaning and acknowledge that this revelation of truth is no ordinary revelation and is sufficient to burn not only into hearts and minds but to also consume the physical.

I agree, Mark, and this is the opinion I presented in former discussions with Tom. The glory of God burns into hearts and minds but also consumes the physical.

"When it is too late, he [the sinner] will see that sin is the transgression of God's law. He will realize that because of transgression, his soul is cut off from God, and that God's wrath abides on him. This is a fire unquenchable, and by it every unrepentant sinner will be destroyed." {ST, April 14, 1898 par. 13}

But we see that this fire is also literal, because it will consume the earth and all the wicked.

"Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men.... The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They 'shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts.' Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished 'according to their deeds.' ... In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches" (GC 672, 673).

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/04/06 12:32 AM

Jesus suffered the wrath of God on the cross. But Jesus did not suffer the second death on the cross. Instead, He tasted and consumed it. This explains why Jesus was not cast into the lake of fire or why fire was not part of His substitutional death on our behalf.

It is Satan who suffers our second death in the lake of fire on our behalf. His suffering and second death are not substitutional in the sense of salvation. But it is substitutionary in the sense of eliminating the presence and existence of our sins.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/04/06 03:56 AM

Will,

1.I agree the judgment of the wicked is an inevitable fact.
2.You state that you don't agree that the ideas I have been presenting agree with the Bible, but you don't present any reasons as to why. It would be more helpful if you would develop some sort of argument as to why not. You're stating you disagree doesn't really serve a purpose.
3.You are incorrect in asserting I have a reluctance to accept that Jesus said there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. I have quoted Jesus' saying this.
4.I agree that hell was prepared for the devil and his angels.
5.I agree that Sodom and Gemorrah was destroyed.
6.Regarding the statement that you have no idea how I got the idea that the glory of God will destroy the wicked, the idea isn't original to myself. The Spirit of Prophecy said it:

To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them." (DA 107)

The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. (DA 108)

The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/04/06 04:01 AM

As you have resposted a portion of your post on a different thread, I am reposting my response to that portion of your post.

If the lake of fire was only a revelation of the character of God, (and I agree that it is that) it would not cleanse the earth of its physical impurities and prepare it for the new creation.

If you have read what I've written in the past, you will see that I do not disagree with this. I think that Rosangela's idea on this is possible. It's also possible that the same forces which caused the earth's crust to give way, leading to the flood, cause the earth's crust to give way again, leading to it becoming a lake of fire, a molten mass. What I disagree with is the idea that God causes the wicked to be swimming in molten lava and supernatually keeps them alive so that He can boil them alive, torturing them, for perhaps many days.

So while it is probably correct to say the more important dimension of the lake of fire is the revelation of truth

What is this truth? Is that truth that God will torture you with a torture worse than the Roman church or Nazi Germany could devise, and then kill you if you don't do what He says? Or is the truth that to sin, wherever it is found, God's presence is a consuming fire; that the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, will slay the wicked? It's important that we identify just what the truth that is being revealed here is, as it impacts how we perceive God's character, which is crucial.

, we must also let scripture take its intended meaning and acknowledge that this revelation of truth is no ordinary revelation and is sufficient to burn not only into hearts and minds but to also consume the physical. It is this physical aspect, which we acknowledge is less important than the spiritual, that your theory doesn’t account for.

First of all, the theory is not mine. As Kevin H. pointed out, it's been within Adventism for over a hundred years, and there have been many proponents of it. Secondly the theory does account for the physical aspect. I have never denied that the wicked will be physically destroyed by fire or that the earth will be purified by fire.

A similar deficiency is evident in your presenting the atonement of Christ as a revelation of the character of God and not acknowledging its personal, substitutionary nature.

I don't disagree that the atonement of Christ was either personal or substituationary. I disagree that it was substitutionary in a penal arbitrary way, but not that it was substitutionary or personal. Ty Gibson's comments will go into this in detail.

You claim to present a loving picture of the character of God, but love is defined by both mercy and justice, not in a vacuum. This mercy and justice is that of a Person. It is very true that the character of God is what entitles Him to rule; in the symbol of the sanctuary the throne of God represented by the mercy seat is founded four-square on the ark containing the law representing His character. You err in turning this image upside down and unwittingly placing the ark, or character of God above His thrown or person.

Again, I see no contradiction between God's character and His person. God, in His person, never acts contrary to His character.

In scripture, God is seated in government on the foundation of his character, but not in subordination to it. Your view, which seems to be to the contrary, is IMO a result of presenting only one side of these things, therefore, I ask you again, aren't you doing violence to the very truth, the character of God, you claim to be contending for?

Only if it were true that God at times acts contrary to His character.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/04/06 04:16 AM

I agree, Mark, and this is the opinion I presented in former discussions with Tom. The glory of God burns into hearts and minds but also consumes the physical.

I agree, Rosangela. You cannot disassociate the physical from the mental.

"When it is too late, he [the sinner] will see that sin is the transgression of God's law. He will realize that because of transgression, his soul is cut off from God, and that God's wrath abides on him. This is a fire unquenchable, and by it every unrepentant sinner will be destroyed." {ST, April 14, 1898 par. 13}

But we see that this fire is also literal, because it will consume the earth and all the wicked.

When we are told that the glory of God is a consuming fire to sin wherever it is found, what is the character of this fire? The word "literal" I don't think is sufficient here. I think "literal" as you are using it here , means "fire such as I know it."

I don't think when she says "to sin wherever it is found, God is a consuming fire" she meant it to be taken in a non-literal way. She is describing an actual truth. God's glory really does consume sin. It really is a consuming fire. People really cannot come into God's presence while cherishing evil because they really will be destroyed because God's presence really is a consuming fire which really will consume sin. His glory really will destroy them.

"Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men.... The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They 'shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts.' Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished 'according to their deeds.' ... In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches" (GC 672, 673).

The warfare against God's law, which was begun in heaven, will be continued until the end of time. Every man will be tested. Obedience or disobedience is the question to be decided by the whole world. All will be called to choose between the law of God and the laws of men. Here the dividing line will be drawn. There will be but two classes. Every character will be fully developed; and all will show whether they have chosen the side of loyalty or that of rebellion.

Then the end will come. God will vindicate His law and deliver His people. Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Mal. 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; . . . I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Then "the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be;" "they shall be as though they had not been." Ezek. 28:6-19; Ps. 37:10; Obadiah 16.

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.

But not so when the great controversy shall be ended. Then, the plan of redemption having been completed, the character of God is revealed to all created intelligences. The precepts of His law are seen to be perfect and immutable. Then sin has made manifest its nature, Satan his character. Then the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before a universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. (DA 763, 764)

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/04/06 04:40 AM

Satan's destruction in the lake of fire is in no sense substitutionary. This is a misuse of the term. To suggest that Satan is a substitute for us is to suggest that Satan did somethiing so that we wouldn't have to. When applied to Christ, this concept applies. When applied to Christ, it does not.

Satan suffers in direct proportion to his sin, just like every other sinner.

Because of the laying on hands on the scape goat, which represents Satan, and the Spirit of Prophecy's interpretation that this represents the sins of the righteous being place on Satan's head, I think there is a tendency to think that this is some arbitrary act on the part of God to make something happen which wouldn't have happened had God not imposed this upon Satan.

This is not at all what is happening. God is not arbitrary. He is merely describing the truth the that Satan will suffer for all the sins he has caused; he bears the guilt of the sins of those he has led into sin. He is not being treated any differently than any other creature. Since Satan originated sin, he bears more responsibility for it than anyone else.

Consider the following statement from Early Writings:

Quote:

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused.(EW 294)

Satan doesn't just suffer for the sins of the righteous that he had a part in, but also for the sins of the wicked which he had a part in.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/04/06 06:21 AM

Quote:

Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}

This agrees perfectly with what I've been presenting. I could not have presented a better text. In fact, this is the same text I've been presenting, just slightly before it.

Notice she says that Jacob could not endure the revelation of God's presence only because he had repented of sin. This makes it clear that it is sin which is the problem. God's presence doesn't change; it is what it is. What changes is us, and sin is what changes us. Sin makes it so that we cannot bear God's presence. As she puts it, wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. Why? Did God do something arbitrary to destroy them? No, He simply revealed His presence, and noone can endure God's presence while willfully cherishing sin. But those who repent can endure God's presence, without God's doing anything different. The light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked.

I'll think I'll stop here for now and await your response, and consider the others afterwards if you wish.

Tom

Tom,

This quote is in connection to the Second Coming of Christ in which the righteous are either resurrected or translated by the light of the glory of God, or more specifically, the light of the glory of the Son of God, namely Jesus Christ, and this same light of the glory of God, or again more specifically, the light of the glory of the Son of God, namely Jesus Christ at His Second Coming, slays the wicked. This is different from the second death of the wicked in the Lake of Fire which is done differently than it was at His Second Coming. The former was a death of the wicked from which there would be a resurrection and the latter was the Second Death of all the wicked, fallen angels and wicked humans, in the Lake of Fire, that also purifies the earth for Christ's act of recreation of a new earth.

This continues to answer the question in this topic of the fact that all may have been saved for either eternal life or eternal death, but not all have been saved for eternal life as most of them will suffer the pains of the Second Death.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/04/06 07:45 AM

Daryl, you're missing the point I was making. I'll try to be more clear.

The Spirit of Prophecy is dealing with a principle, which is that to sin, wherever it is found, God is a consuming fire. She quoted 4 or 5 Bible texts to show this is true, and then applied it to several situations. Your idea that the statement "the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, will slay the wicked" should be isolated and applied only to the Second Coming of Christ is not tenable. It would counteract the whole context of the passage, and her intent, which is to apply the principle that God is a consuming fire to sin, wherever it is found, to a variety of circumstances. It is one universal principle, but applicable to many different situations, including the incidents in the Old Testament she refers to, the Second Coming of Christ, and the destruction of the wicked at the end.

Secondly she makes the same statement, that the glory of God will destroy the wicked, directly, both elsewhere, and in this very passage. First elsewhere:

Quote:

By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)

There's no doubt this is applying to the destruction of the wicked, not the Second Coming of Christ, correct?

OK, now here's the application, *from the very passage under consideration*

Quote:

In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. (DA 107)

When is sin destroyed? At the destruction of the wicked, right? So this statement agrees with the one from DA 764. As I pointed out previously, the only new element to the DA 108 statement is that the same thing which gives life to the righteous is what destroys the wicked. She already said elsewhere that the glory of God destroys the wicked. She just hadn't said that the same thing which destroys the wicked gives life to the righteous. This is a wonderful and profound truth.

Posted By: Will

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/04/06 10:24 AM

Tom,
you stated:

Quote:

2.You state that you don't agree that the ideas I have been presenting agree with the Bible, but you don't present any reasons as to why. It would be more helpful if you would develop some sort of argument as to why not. You're stating you disagree doesn't really serve a purpose.

I have actually presented several texts, so your question has been answered. It just hasn't satisifed you because you haveburrowed yourself into a hard position whcih the end result means "oops I was wrong" and it does serve a purpose, the purpose is to show you that God will destroy the wicked, and that the wicked will be cast into a lake of fire, this fire is real, not some figurative wording used to describe a non-descript object.
Perhaps you need to read more carefully at what I am saying, as I understand your scholarly position and use of fanciful theories are looking for the "intellectual higher learning" form of discussion, which looks to puff ones self. I like to use my sword as an offensive weapon as well as defensive. Your leanings on the SOP with no Bible text shows me that you cannot back up your theory, yet others here have used the SOP and the Bible to actually counter on many occassions your theory that God will not destroy the wicked. Thats your contention that God will not destroy the wicked. I have seen this type of talk many many times. "God doesn't destroy", "The fire isnt real" etc etc. When its not true. The Bible is clear on this.

Posted By: Will

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/04/06 10:25 AM

Tom,
Are the wicked destroyed by fire? yes or no.
Is the fire real? yes or no.
Is the lake of fire real? yes or no
Is the mealting of the elements real? yes or no?

Is the fire that comes from God out of heaven on the wicked that surround the New Jerusalem and destroys them real? yes or no

And no I am not talking bout the light of God's glory, I'm talking about fire like fire and brimstone, heat, flames etc etc.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/04/06 05:21 PM

TE: Satan's destruction in the lake of fire is in no sense substitutionary. This is a misuse of the term. To suggest that Satan is a substitute for us is to suggest that Satan did somethiing so that we wouldn't have to. When applied to Christ, this concept applies. When applied to Christ, it does not.

MM: I disagree. The scapegoat concept is substitutionary. Satan will die with our sin and second death in the lake of fire. Jesus did not eliminate our sin and second death on the cross. If He did neither would exist to be placed upon the Devil at some future time. Instead, Jesus earned the legal right to own our sin and second death when He lived and died the perfect life and death. As rightful owner of all sin and death it His duty to eliminate them in the only proper manner, and that is to destroy them with Satan in the lake of fire.

TE: OK, now here's the application, *from the very passage under consideration*

MM: Mental agony is only one aspect, Tom. There are other places where Sister White plainly describes the physical aspect. People will punish and burn in duration according to their sinfulness.

Posted By: the1888message

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/04/06 10:53 PM

Are we all saved?

Well if we are already saved then the Bible Prophecies are for nothing and would therefore be false teachings, as would the inspired writings of the SDA founders and people like Martin Luther and Crammer and others.

Yes Christ the Son of the Living God came to this earth and lived the life that Adam and Eve should have. A prefect life that depended upon The Father for every breath and every act and His every thought was to do the Will of the Father. Christ gave his life that we might have life and, which we might be saved.

In order for use to be saved we must give ourselves to the Father as a willing holy sacrifice. We give our will to the Father our free choice to Him who first loved us.

If we make a decision to refuse the Father and His gift of Salvation and we refuse the sacrifice that His Son gave and we refuse the workings of the Holy Spirit in our lives then we have decided to follow satan and his life style. Thus we become agents not of God but of satan. We are now opposing the Almighty God and His Will. We no longer have the Blood of Jesus to cover us but we have our record of sin that places a death penalty on us.

God does not wish that any be lost, He loves each and everyone that has been or is and is to be on this earth, He wants all to be saved, as does His Son.

However, the sad fact is that very few are willing to give themselves over to the Will of God and to follow Jesus, to let the Holy Spirit lead them and they will have to be destroyed, for they have rejected God and hate God and His ways. This does not mean that those who are a live or will live cannot at some point change and follow Christ and God and allow the Holy Spirit to lead their lives.

Everyone has the ability to be saved; the Bible explains how this can be done. It does not however teach that we are saved if we do not live the way that the Almighty God has preordained that we should live.

When the disciples taught that we are saved they were not talking to unbelievers but to followers of Christ.

To teach otherwise would be in error, and this is done by not using the Bible text in context and line upon line.

Peace and Grace
David

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/06/06 03:03 AM

Will, it seems to me clear that the fire is real, and the fire is just what inspiration tells us it is: the glory of God.

Quote:

By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)

Suppose for a moment that this statement is correct, and the wicked really are destroyed by the glory of God. Notice that the Spirit of Prophecy states that Satan and all who unit with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. Is this a real fire? Sure, why not? Do you have some reason for supposing that it isn't?

Imagine God wanting to communicate this truth in a vision. What do you suppose the vision would look like? It seems to me it would look like just what John and Ellen White saw.

So, yes, the fire is real, and the wicked really are destroyed, and they are destroyed by the glory of God, just like it says.

Tom

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/06/06 03:14 AM

TE: Satan's destruction in the lake of fire is in no sense substitutionary. This is a misuse of the term. To suggest that Satan is a substitute for us is to suggest that Satan did somethiing so that we wouldn't have to. When applied to Christ, this concept applies. When applied to Christ, it does not.

MM: I disagree. The scapegoat concept is substitutionary. Satan will die with our sin and second death in the lake of fire. Jesus did not eliminate our sin and second death on the cross. If He did neither would exist to be placed upon the Devil at some future time. Instead, Jesus earned the legal right to own our sin and second death when He lived and died the perfect life and death. As rightful owner of all sin and death it His duty to eliminate them in the only proper manner, and that is to destroy them with Satan in the lake of fire.

MM, I think you're making a mistake by taking a spiritual truth and applying it in a misconstrued way. The sins of the righteous are not literally placed on Satan. Sin isn't a think which can be transferred from one being to another like a fingernail or strand of hair. Sin is in the mind. What she is communicating is that Satan will bear the responsibility for the sin he has caused. He bears responsibility for his part of the sin of both the righteous and the wicked.

Quote:

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. (EW 294, 295)

The word "substitute" means "a person or thing that takes or can take the place of another." Now it is true that Christ was our substitute, but it is in no sense true that Satan will be a substitue for us. He in no sense takes our place.

TE: OK, now here's the application, *from the very passage under consideration*

MM: Mental agony is only one aspect, Tom. There are other places where Sister White plainly describes the physical aspect. People will punish and burn in duration according to their sinfulness.

The passage didn't say anything about mental agony.

Quote:

"I will turn My hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin." Isa. 4:4; 1:25. To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Gen. 32: 30. Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. (DA 108)

There's nothing in this passage to indicate she is intending to limit this to mental agony. She says the glory of God will "destroy them." It will "slay the wicked."

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/06/06 03:21 AM

David, when the word "saved" is used, I find it helpful to define what is intended. Usually it is used in the sense of getting to heaven. Everyone here agree (except Darius perhaps) that not everyone will get to heaven.

The word "saved" is not only used in this sense, however. For example, Scripture refers to Christ as "the Savior of the world" and "the Savior of all men, especially those who believe." Given that it says "especially of those who believe," it is clear that Peter intended that it be understood that Christ was also the Savior of those who don't believe, in some sense, or else it would not make sense for him to say that Christ is "especially" the Savior of those who believe.

Also the Spirit of Prophecy points out that on several occasions that Christ "saved the world."

An example would be, say you are crossing the street, and someone pushes you out of the way of an oncoming vehicle which would have killed you. Did this person save your life? Yes. Does that mean you can't be killed by an oncoming vehicle at some point in the future? No. That could still happen.

Similarly, Christ saved the human race by undertaking the Plan of Salvation, at infinite cost to Himself, and at great risk. We should be thankful for that, and share this good news with others. The emancipation papers of the human race was signed by His blood.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/06/06 04:47 AM

What does we have all been saved fit here:

Quote:

Mat. 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

It says shall be saved meaning that only those who endure to the end shall be saved. Those who do not endure to the end will not be saved.

Yes, in one sense we have all been saved or granted a time of probation to repent, however, the Bible shows that not all will repent, therefore, in another sense we have not all been saved.

I think everybody would agree with this.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/06/06 07:52 AM

Yes, certainly not all will go to heaven. But the point I've been trying to make is that Christ actually *did* something for all of us, and we should be thankful for that! Even if we choose to live our lives in total selfishness and eventually die, it will still have been true that Christ died for us, at great risk and infinite cost to Himself, not to mention the risk that God the Father took, and the cost to Himself as well.

It's not simply that we have probabtion (thanks to Christ pushing us out of the way of the vehicle), but Christ was run over by the vehicle. If this happened in real life, would you be thankful for someone who gave his life to save yours? Your "probation," your extra life, you would probably live in memory of the great self-sacrifice of this person who laid down his life for yours. Even if you were lost at last, you would still be in debt to that person for his sacrifice. And so it is that Paul writes:

Quote:

For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. (2 Cor. 5:14, 15)

The death of Christ motivates us, even compels us, to live for Him who died for us! If not for Him, we would be dead. To the death of Christ, we owe even this earthly life. What a Savior!

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/06/06 06:17 PM

Yes, the Plan of Salvation took effect, in which Christ came to this sinful planet and actually died for the whole human race, from Adam to each one of us.

In that sense the whole human race was saved from immediate death and a second time of probation was given for every human being

We know that Adam repented and will one day meet Christ, the second Adam, face to face.

Sadly though, it seems that Cain didn't repent and will be amongst the lost.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/06/06 07:23 PM

If the Creator had not forgiven the human race He could not have come to save it. How can we claim to believe in biblical creation and also believe that the Creator saves us as individuals? Our sectarianism is blinding us.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/06/06 09:21 PM

Where is the contradiction between general creation and individual salvation?

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/06/06 09:49 PM

The Creator forgives those who seek His forgiveness, which was made possible through the Plan of Salvation, however, only those who repent of their sins and ask for forgiveness for their sins will receive it.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/06/06 10:56 PM

God forgives everybody, whether they ask for it or not. For example, Jesus prayed, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." Those who are of Christ manifest the same spirit. For example, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." (Stephen's last words). Also Paul manifest this spirit in saying he would be accursed for the sake of those who were persecuting him.

As 2 Cor. 5:19 says, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their sins against them." As the psalmest puts it, "If thou shouldst mark iniquity, who could stand?" (Ps. 130:3).

However, it is true that only those who repent of their sins and ask for forgiveness will receive it, because this is the only way it can be received. It's not that God withholds giving it, but it cannot be received without being received (how's that for stating a self-evident truth!)

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/07/06 01:29 AM

Quote:

Where is the contradiction between general creation and individual salvation?

Because the story of Genesis creation is that the humman race has always been one. The woman was taken out of the man. There is no difference. The race was deceived and the entire race was redeemed. Our theology shows that we do not really believe that the race is one, and to bolster this false believe we misinterpret exhortative language spoken to a people called to do a specific duty. Sometimes I feel really disappointed when I see some try to use the words of Jesus against Him. We are still here because no one enters into the new life until we can understand that all must enter.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/07/06 03:15 AM

All must enter, or nobody will enter?

Quote:

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Then where or how does the division of the sheep and the goats, the separation of the righteous/redeemed from the unrighteousness/unredeemed fit in?

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/07/06 02:51 PM

Quote:

All must enter, or nobody will enter?

Quote:

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Then where or how does the division of the sheep and the goats, the separation of the righteous/redeemed from the unrighteousness/unredeemed fit in?

Daryl, have you ever told your child something designed to teach an important life lesson that if taken by itself could never happen? How many children were advised against swallowing seeds because they would grow in their stomachs? You may not realize it, but your approach in these posts reminds me of legalism. You are so stuck to the text that you totally ignore the context. It also reminds me of borderline gnosticism because the focus is on knowledge of certain facts.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/07/06 10:51 PM

Whos context are we talking about here? Ours or theirs? It is sertainly out of context in our postenlightenmnet world to speak of divine acts and especially of divine wrath, but which was the context Jesus and the apostles knew? Lets hear a testimony of the historic context that Jesus first audience lived in:

2Pe 2:1 Now there were false prophets among the people, just as there also will be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2Pe 2:2 Many people will follow their immoral ways, and because of them the way of truth will be maligned.
2Pe 2:3 In their greed they will exploit you with deceptive words. The ancient verdict against them is still in force, and their destruction is not asleep.
2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but threw them into the lowest hell and committed them to chains of deepest darkness to be kept for judgment;
2Pe 2:5 and if he did not spare the ancient world but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others when he brought the flood on the world of ungodly people;
2Pe 2:6 and if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and destroyed them by burning them to ashes, making them an example to ungodly people of what is going to happen to them;
2Pe 2:7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man who was greatly distressed by the immoral conduct of lawless people-
2Pe 2:8 for as long as that righteous man lived among them, day after day he was being tortured in his righteous soul by what he saw and heard in their lawless actions-
2Pe 2:9 then the Lord knows how to rescue godly people from their trials and to hold unrighteous people for punishment on the day of judgment,
2Pe 2:10 especially those who satisfy their flesh by indulging in its passions and who despise authority. Being bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to slander glorious beings.

There is just too much scripture that speaks about God judging the world and finding it wanting, and in all kinds of litterary styles. It is mentioned in History, Prophesy, Poetry, Teaching. Is denying this just dont a bad case of "I made up my mind and no amount or quality of contrary evidence will change my mind"?

Conserning gnosticism (and scientology im told), isnt the thing there not mere knowledge but more specifically secret knowledge only known by a few initiated? Quoting the most widely circulated book on earth hardly fits into that description does it?

/Thomas

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/08/06 03:56 AM

Vaster, I would remind you that I used to sit where you are now sitting. I have been through all these arguments. I would suggest that you apply the arguments you have used to the case of Jonah and Nineveh. Make them fit then we can see who has his mind made up and dare not move.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/08/06 07:40 AM

Darius, I understand your point. You are saying that the prophecy of Nineveh was stated in an unconditional way, so that anyone reading Scripture would think that Nineveh would for sure would be destroyed. But it wasn't, even though God made no provision for this, as related in Scripture. However, it is God's character to forgive whenever one repents, prophecy notwithstanding. This principle is laid out in Jeramiah 18:

5Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

6O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

7At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

8If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

9And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

10If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

So if God forgave Nineveh, even though there was not prophecy saying He would, why won't He forgive the wicked in the second ressurection, even though there is not prophecy saying so. That's the idea you're presenting.

However, God will not forgive without repentance, or, better stated (since God always forgives), the wicked will not receive repentance without a change of heart. God respects free will, and will not force anyone to repent. So my question is, on what basis do you think any of the wicked will repent, let alone all of them? Their character is widely known by God, which is why God raises them in the second resurrection instead of the first one. One of the basic priniples of Adventism is that the character does not change when one is resurrected.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/08/06 08:54 AM

In both Nineveh and the preflood world, people where evil.
God sent Jonah to Nineveh and Noah to the preflood world with the message that the peoples wickedness was going to be destroyed with the city/world.
The preflood people didnt change but continued as they had always done. The Nineveans sought God covering themselves in sackcloth and ash.
God saved all in the preflood world who listened to His warning, in all 8 people.
God saved all in Nineveh who listened to His warning, the entire city repented so no destruction was brought on it.

/Thomas

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/08/06 03:01 PM

That's not my reasoning, Tom. The present theology ignores three important points. First, something happened to make the implementation of a Plan of Salvation necessary. Second, by their actions Adam and Eve implicated the entire race. Third, the human race never asked to be rescued.

These point to one vital point. Forgiveness had to be completed before the plan of salvation could have been implemented. The human race was forgiven way back in Eden. It is on the basis of this forgiveness that God came to reclaim us from the enemy who claimed ua as his own.

Incidentally, Nineveh was destroyed just as Jonah said but he was as shortsighted as we are today. After the people repented the Nineveh that prompted the Creator to send Jonah no longer existed. The people destroyed it. It is too sad that modern Christians have this penchant for blood and violence. Destruction does not have to be bloody.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/08/06 04:22 PM

Thats one interesting thought. However, to have the same happen on the scale of the entire earth, then everyone alive (or at the very least the overwhelming majority) would have to do what the Ninevites did. Repent and humble themselves after hearing Gods word preached. It is hard to imagen that happening in a society where an ever growing number of people have made it their personal buisness to work against Jesus and everyone who preaches about Him.

/Thomas

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/08/06 05:11 PM

Quote:

These point to one vital point. Forgiveness had to be completed before the plan of salvation could have been implemented. The human race was forgiven way back in Eden. It is on the basis of this forgiveness that God came to reclaim us from the enemy who claimed us as his own.

I agree with this. However, even thought the race has been corporately saved, individuals can still choose whom they will server. Many choose not to respond to God's kindness. Why do you think this will ever change?

Regarding Nineveh, every other person I've had discussions regarding Universalism has used Nineveh along the lines of the argument I presented, so it was no surprise to me that you would reference it. However, I was surprised to read that you are using some other line of reasoning in regards to it. Could you outline your reasoning?

Jonah said that Nineveh would be destroyed in forty days, not simply that it would be destroyed. It wasn't, and the reasons are laid out in Jeremiah 18, as I quoted.

Posted By: the1888message

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/08/06 06:34 PM

Quote:

Darius, I understand your point. You are saying that the prophecy of Nineveh was stated in an unconditional way, so that anyone reading Scripture would think that Nineveh would for sure would be destroyed. But it wasn't, even though God made no provision for this, as related in Scripture. However, it is God's character to forgive whenever one repents, prophecy notwithstanding. This principle is laid out in Jeramiah 18:

So if God forgave Nineveh, even though there was not prophecy saying He would, why won't He forgive the wicked in the second ressurection, even though there is not prophecy saying so. That's the idea you're presenting.

However, God will not forgive without repentance, or, better stated (since God always forgives), the wicked will not receive repentance without a change of heart. God respects free will, and will not force anyone to repent. So my question is, on what basis do you think any of the wicked will repent, let alone all of them? Their character is widely known by God, which is why God raises them in the second resurrection instead of the first one. One of the basic priniples of Adventism is that the character does not change when one is resurrected.

I like your points.

This line of thought that God will forgive everyone at the end of time, or that everyone will repent, is a new twist to what Satan did in the Garden to Eve, Gen 2:4 “Ye shall not surely die”.

Christ stated that many are called but few shall answer. Did he lie?

These thoughts that everyone will be saved at the very end is nothing more than “new age” doctrines. Many times this comes from reading poorly translated “bibles”. Sounds like a, I’m ok your ok religion.

The Bible is plain the wicked WILL be destroyed. There are way to many Bible Prophecies that all say this will happen. They have a chance to be saved this does not mean that they will be saved.

Did the people in Noah’s time, which were not on the boat, are they going to get a second chance and still be saved? What about all those children?
No, there will not be a second chance for any wicked person.

If they are all saved and they will all repent before the Second Coming, then the Bible has many false statements from cover to cover.

What is one to believe, the theories (intellectual philosophies) that all are saved and all will be saved or the Holy Scriptures, few will be saved?

Peace and Grace

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/08/06 08:08 PM

Tom and Vaster, the point is that if any human ends up in hell, though it seems that the God is going out of His way not to have to do so, it will not be because they were not saved. Everyone has the right to independently rebel. The proble is that too many humans believe they can figure who has rebelled. We think that anyone who does not accept our Revelation Seminar propaganda must be in rebellion. That is presumption and borders on blasphemy by presuming to speak for the Creator.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/08/06 08:12 PM

1888 I suggest you read my posts more carefully instead of assuming you are reading what you have read elsewhere. I did not say what you have presented me as saying.

Posted By: the1888message

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/08/06 08:13 PM

Quote:

Tom and Vaster, the point is that if any human ends up in hell, though it seems that the God is going out of His way not to have to do so, it will not be because they were not saved. Everyone has the right to independently rebel. The proble is that too many humans believe they can figure who has rebelled. We think that anyone who does not accept our Revelation Seminar propaganda must be in rebellion. That is presumption and borders on blasphemy by presuming to speak for the Creator.

This “Intellectual Philosophy” about everyone being saved is so against everything that the Bible teaches.
However, you made a point that the “Revelation Seminar propaganda”. I wonder if you could expound on this point. Are you saying that it is all lies or parts of it?

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/08/06 08:15 PM

Tom, what does "in 40 days" mean to you? Clearly it means "within 40 days." The Nineveh that existed before the people repented did not exist after they repented. It was destroyed. Jeremiah speaks of an action God says He will do. This is not what happened in Nineveh.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/08/06 08:18 PM

Tom, the lesson I learn from Nineveh is that we cannot use a prophecy to tie the hands of the Creator. Humans cannot decide how a prophecy must be fulfilled. Too many of think that because we have a few prohetic charts we know the future. Newsflash! We do not!

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/08/06 10:34 PM

Quote:

No, there will not be a second chance for any wicked person.

To clarify, the problem is not that second chance is not given. If the wicked were willing to repent, God would forgive them. It's not an arbitrary decision on the part of God that keeps them out of heaven, but it is their own voluntary choice which does this:

God does not force the will or judgment of any. He takes no pleasure in a slavish obedience. He desires that the creatures of His hands shall love Him because He is worthy of love. He would have them obey Him because they have an intelligent appreciation of His wisdom, justice, and benevolence. And all who have a just conception of these qualities will love Him because they are drawn toward Him in admiration of His attributes.

The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." ...

God would make them happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character...The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will?

Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?...

A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 541, 542)

From this we see that God does not for the will or judgment of the wicked. They choose not to go to heaven, and God abides by their choice. So it's not a matter that the don't get a second chance, but that they do not want to have anything to do with God or those who love Him, just like here on earth.

Jesus talked about this in the parable of Lazrus and the rich man. He said that if they have not believed Moses, that wouldn't change their mind, even if one were raised from the dead (which is exactly what happened). This principle can be extropolated to include them; that is, even if *they* are the ones raised from the dead, they won't change their minds.

The problem is that pride and other traits become fixed in their characters, and the character doesn't change when one is resurrected.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/08/06 11:08 PM

Quote:

Tom and Vaster, the point is that if any human ends up in hell, though it seems that the God is going out of His way not to have to do so, it will not be because they were not saved.

The sense in which everybody is saved is not in the sense that everyone will go to heaven. There's nothing that teaches this.

Quote:

Everyone has the right to independently rebel.

Right! And God will not force the will of any. Why do you think they rebels of today will stop rebelling tomorrow? (where today=in this life and tomorrow=in the life to come)

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/08/06 11:16 PM

Tom, I am not the one who insists on equating salvation with eternal life. This is the crux of our problem. We have a theology that does teach the truth about salvation. This is why we keep telling people to come and be saved or that God will not save so and so. These comments reflect a flawed view of salvation.

I don't get the relevance of your last comment. Lucifer was never a rebel and he became a rebel. What gives you the idea that the authority of the Creator depends on his creatures never rebelling again? It is a romantic idea but nothing says it is true. The Creator has never been threatened by Lucifer's rebellion or by our actions.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/08/06 11:36 PM

Quote:

Tom, I am not the one who insists on equating salvation with eternal life. This is the crux of our problem. We have a theology that does teach the truth about salvation. This is why we keep telling people to come and be saved or that God will not save so and so. These comments reflect a flawed view of salvation.

I mostly agree with this. The only thing I would question is the salvation is not equal to eternal life comment. "Salvation" as it is usually used, is equivalent to eternal life; it applies to individual salvation, not corporate salvation. How is salvation, as you are using the term, different than eternal life?

Quote:

I don't get the relevance of your last comment. Lucifer was never a rebel and he became a rebel. What gives you the idea that the authority of the Creator depends on his creatures never rebelling again?

Inspiration gives me the idea in saying that sin will never arise again.

Quote:

It is a romantic idea but nothing says it is true.

The Bible says it is true. That's something.

Quote:

The Creator has never been threatened by Lucifer's rebellion or by our actions.

How is this relevant? He was threatened in the sense that His love for His creatures drove Him to take action which was risky both to Himself and to His Son.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/09/06 12:06 AM

Tom, we have been saved but do not now experience eternal life. It's as simple as that.

I know what Nahum 1:9 says. I asks what makes you think that the authority of the Creator depends on man not rebelling again.

What was the risk? God came to reveal Himself. Lucifer could never overcome Him. Theologians have created a risk and now you wish to have the Bible validate it. There was not risk in the plan of salvation.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/09/06 02:24 AM

1.Jesus said, "I have come that you might have life, and have it abundantly." "For God so loved the world, He gave His only Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." "To know God, is life eternal."

John wrote:"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God" (1 John 5:13).

To use John B.'s language, eternal life is not a duration of physical life, but a quality of spiritual life. Eternal life is something we can have right now, by believing in Christ. Not only can we have it, but we can know we have it.

2.Christ was tempted as we are and could have sinned. That was a risk.

3.If you know the Bible ways that sin will not arise a second time, why did you say "nothing says it is true"?

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/09/06 03:54 AM

Tom, please read me carefully. Nahum says nothing about the authority of the Creator being dependent on man not rebelling in the future.

What kind of risk are you talking about? Do you really think that the creature could outsmart the creator? You must have a very low impression of the Creator.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/10/06 12:26 AM

1.That sin will not arise a second time doesn't have to do with God's authority. It won't arise again because the issues of the Great Controversy have been understood.

2.The risk was due to the reality of Christ's temptations, especially on the cross. Being outsmarted by a creature was not an issue. Christ's temptations were as a man, not as the Creator.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/10/06 12:52 AM

You have now moved to something different from what we have been discussing. I would ask you to note that new arrivals to the universe will have no understanding of the issues of the Great Controversy.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/10/06 01:10 AM

1.They will have as much understanding of the Great Controversy as of anything else.

2.We've been talking about salvation, which of necessity involves the Great Controversy.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/10/06 01:24 AM

Are you suggesting that the system of development introduced at the Creation was not good enough so it will be changed. New arrivals will have no knowledge of what happened in the universe before they arrived.

I don't get your second point. Everything in the universe is connected in some way to something else. That does not make it fair game to switch to another subject in a discussion. I suspect you have a perspective on the Great Controversy that does not match the facts of the case.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/10/06 02:00 AM

Are you suggesting that the system of development introduced at the Creation was not good enough so it will be changed. New arrivals will have no knowledge of what happened in the universe before they arrived.

No, the principles of God's government never change. The Great Controversy is about demonstrating this to be the case. Whatever new arrivals there might be will learn about the Great Controversy just like they will learn about everything else. I don't know what your point is here.

I don't get your second point.

That talking about salvation of necessity involves the Great Controversy? If you don't understand this, I don't think I can help you.

Everything in the universe is connected in some way to something else. That does not make it fair game to switch to another subject in a discussion. I suspect you have a perspective on the Great Controversy that does not match the facts of the case.

Funny, I have a similar suspicion.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/10/06 02:21 AM

Tom, you need to be more discriminating. Read carefully what I post. A discussion on whether we have all been saved does not necessarily require a discussion on the Great Controversy.

If the former things shall not be remembered nor brought into mind how will the new arrivals learn what you suggest they will learn?

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/10/06 02:46 AM

You're posting or not posting something doesn't change the nature of things. Salvation and the Great Controversy are inextricably linked. It's not a separate subject. The whole reason salvation was necessary at all was a direct result of the Great Controversy.

The Great Controversy started in heaven when Satan lied about God. Many of his peers believed his lies, and became rebels. Satan brought the same lies here, and made rebels of our race. The salvation of the race necessitates the revelation of truth.

That former things will not be brought to mind is not implying ignorance, but context. That is, God will not perform labotamies on us, forcing thoughts out of our brains, but the negative aspects of sin, the pain, sorrow and suffering we experience because of it, will be remembered no more. We will remember who we are, what we've done, and how Christ healed us.

Whatever new arrivals there may be will learn of the Great Controversy. They would have the benefit of the experience of the redeemed. This will serve as a safeguard to the universe.

When Satan is destroyed, there will be none to tempt to evil; the atonement will never need to be repeated; and there will be no danger of another rebellion in the universe of God. That which alone can effectually restrain from sin in this world of darkness, will prevent sin in heaven. (5SDABC 1132)

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/10/06 02:54 AM

I knew you were out in left field. The Bible is clear that A&E were deceived yet you claim that they rebelled. In so doing you are repeating the devil's lies because this is the basis on which he claimed ownership of the human race.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/10/06 07:12 AM

Darius, it would be more pleasant to converse with you if you would leave off the disparaging comments. Almost every post you write have them. It's too much! If you wish to share ideas, I'm happy to do that. I have no desire to exchange insults.

You write, "The Bible is clear that A&E were deceived yet you claim that they rebelled." I wrote that Satan lied in heaven and brought his lies here. Isn't it obvious that if he brought his lies here, and these lies were believed, that he decieved the race? Is your line of thought that if mankind rebelled, that means they weren't deceived? What lie of the devil am I repeating? That the race are rebels? Where did Satan say this lie? What makes you think the race aren't rebels? Do you think the race is in harmony with God?

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/10/06 02:19 PM

Quote:

Darius, it would be more pleasant to converse with you if you would leave off the disparaging comments. Almost every post you write have them. It's too much! If you wish to share ideas, I'm happy to do that. I have no desire to exchange insults.

I agree with Tom.

If you wish to continue to be a participant here, you will need to do what Tom has posted which I have quoted above.

Posted By: Redfog

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/10/06 02:33 PM

Amen brothers. There is no reason for the insults and belittling comments within the framework of Christian exchanges of ideas. If a person wishes to convince someone of something a little tactfulness goes a long way towards achieving that goal, along with a touch of humbleness and love.

Redfog

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/10/06 10:05 PM

By the way, as an information insert only, there is a feature where any member can be ignored by another member, which means that you will not see the contents of any post made by a person that you are ignoring. If you cancel it though, you will then be able to see the contents of all that person's posts.

Now back to the topic.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/10/06 11:04 PM

Is this a joke of some sort? I won't go searching for the insulting comments that have been aimed at me, but I am puzzled why anyone claim that saying that someone was in left field is an insult. IAE, I have become accustomed to this kind of inconsistency. Those who are "in line" are justified to use whatever language they desire to maintain the line.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/10/06 11:26 PM

Quote:

Darius, it would be more pleasant to converse with you if you would leave off the disparaging comments. Almost every post you write have them. It's too much! If you wish to share ideas, I'm happy to do that. I have no desire to exchange insults.

Instead of posting the short reactions you find to be disparaging comments I will try to comment at length on the frustrating responses that make them necessary.

Quote:

You write, "The Bible is clear that A&E were deceived yet you claim that they rebelled." I wrote that Satan lied in heaven and brought his lies here. Isn't it obvious that if he brought his lies here, and these lies were believed, that he decieved the race? Is your line of thought that if mankind rebelled, that means they weren't deceived? What lie of the devil am I repeating? That the race are rebels? Where did Satan say this lie? What makes you think the race aren't rebels? Do you think the race is in harmony with God?

I once used to repeat this charge that Lucifer lied in heaven until I could find no way to reconcile it with anything that could possibly have happened in heaven. Now, here you make the same charge. I would like you to support it. What would inspire Lucifer to just tell lies against his Creator. Where in his unfallen nature would come the desire to tell such a lie? Finally, what is that lie that he told?

Lucifer had a different interaction with A&E than he had with the angels in heaven. I have looked very closely at Gen. 3 and there is no lie told by the serpent in that passage. I have been very disappointed at the suggestion by some intelligent folk that "thou shalt not surely die" was a lie. Lucifer had no way of knowing what the ultimate outcome would be, but he did know that he had not died in spite of what he had done in heaven. There is no question that he wanted to entice the pair away from the Creator, but the lying charge implies that he had suppressed knowledge he had.

Let's not argue as to his relationship to the Creator. They were not on the same side, but he was intelligent enough to know that any lie he would have told would not have been believed.

The answer to your question can be seen in the Creator's reaction to what happened. Lucifer rebelled and as a consequence there could be no plan to save him. A rebel has taken a knowledgeable stance. The fact a plan of salvation was implemented for the human race indicates that they were not considered to be rebels but to have been ensnared by the enemy. That is the message repeated consistently throughout the Bible. Rebels cannot be saved. They can only be conquered, unless they surrender. Christ did not come here to conquer the human race.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/11/06 12:31 AM

I am not going to speak to the type of posts any further. I said what I said, and, if necessary, will do what I may need to do.

Now to respond to the rest of Darius' post.

Interestingly enough, we had a discussion of rebellion versus deception in our Sabbath School class discussion this very Sabbath morning.

From the discussion it was agreed that Eve was deceived by the devil speaking through the serpent, as if it were the serpent itself that was speaking to her.

Quote:

Gen. 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Before we determine whether or not the devil lied, let us look at what God said earlier.

Quote:

Gen. 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

1 - God said that "in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

2 - Eve said that "Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."

3 - The devil said via the serpent that "Ye shall not surely die:....."

Did somebody lie here? Yes, somebody did lie.

Who lied? It wasn't God and it wasn't Eve even though she added the words, "neither shall ye touch it" in her reply to the devil/serpent.

Both God and Eve said that death would be the result.

The devil via the serpent lied by saying that Eve would not die.

With this in mind, what happened when Eve took and ate the forbidden fruit, and then took some and gave it to Adam who also ate it?

What happened to them?

Did they die that day?

The answer is no.

What does this do in relation to the conversation that took place between the serpent/devil and Eve?

Does this make God out to be the liar and not the devil?

I have actually brought up two types of questions here:

1a - Was Eve deceived, or did Eve rebel?

1b- Was Adam also deceived, or did he rebel?

2 - Did the serpent/devil lie to Eve, or did God lie?

I will stop here to see how some of you respond to this post and these questions.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/11/06 12:39 AM

At this moment we are all acting under the assumption that Lucifer was acting through the serpent. That said, the fact is that Lucifer was established as the enemy of the Creator. He was under no obligation to believe what his enemy said or to lend any support to it.

The serpent did not deny what the Creator said. He simply suggested, or stated, or emphasized, that the Creator's threat was an empty threat. It would have been a lie if he had said, God did not say you shall surely die. Lucifer had no way of knowing what the time frame for death was. He had never seen anyone in a similar situation nor was he stupid enough to directly attack the Creator. That he kept on the safe side is seen in how the Creator responded. If we truly want to follow what the Bible teaches we must take into account the full context of what is written. If we don't we end up with a hodge-podge of ideas that have no contemporary relevance.

What Adam did was irrelevant to the legal standing of the race. The only probable effect was to make it more difficult to rescue the race. Adam was bound by what Eve did because they were one. It is very troubling that so many of our theologians, preachers, and teachers try to present a picture of Adam and and the Woman that denies the fact they were one and not just a close partnership. The Woman was not made of separate raw material from Adam. In modern scientific parlance she was Adam's clone. They were one and could be no closer than that. The race was claimed by Lucifer on the basis of what the woman did. When the Creator came calling, "Adam where art thou?" He was not speaking to the man; he was speaking to both of them because both of them were Adam. This is not opinion. This is fact.

Posted By: Redfog

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/11/06 02:34 AM

One can tell the truth with the intention of deceiving. (I've done it myself) Darius weather or not you agree that Satan lied through the serpent, surely you must agree that he did intend to deceive?

Redfog

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/11/06 09:19 AM

Everything Satan said was for the purpose of deceiving. Jesus said he was a liar, thief and a murderer from the beginning. He intimated to Eve that God did not have her best interests at heart, that He was holding something back from her which would be good for her.

A lie does not have to be a direct assault. Satan is very subtle. He misrepresents. A little poison is enough to kill. A little poison mixed with truth; that is his method.

The effects of Adam and Eve's sin are seen in that they fled from God. They had no reason to, as God had not changed. He still loved them. He wasn't angry at them. Sin had not changed God. But it changed them. They were now ashamed, and afraid. When God asked them what happened, they blamed something or someone else, and indirectly blamed Him. There problem was that sin had caused them to see God in a false light, just as the serpent had presented Him in a false light.

The solution for humanity was to learn the truth. The purpose of the Scriptures is the revelation of God. It's all about Him. The height of that revelation is Jesus Christ:

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son. (Heb. 1:1, 2)

The purpose of Christ's mission was the revelation of God's character:

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Jesus Prays for His Disciples "I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world.(John 17:3-7)

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/11/06 07:02 PM

Quote:

One can tell the truth with the intention of deceiving. (I've done it myself) Darius weather or not you agree that Satan lied through the serpent, surely you must agree that he did intend to deceive?

Redfog

Redfog, I have said that repeatedly. Don't leave the impression that you have to bring me to this position. I find such tactics to be offensive and insulting.

I am still waiting for someone to tell me what lie Lucifer told in heaven. The claim has been made. It should be validated.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/11/06 07:04 PM

Quote:

[Satan] intimated to Eve that God did not have her best interests at heart, that He was holding something back from her which would be good for her.

Show me the passage in Gen. 3 that supports this claim. Explain it to me as if I were a 5 year-old.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/11/06 07:45 PM

Since the devil is a deceiver, then it takes some form of a lie to deceive, does it not?

The following is the only text I have come across so far that seems to speak to this:

Quote:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Details of the first lie of the devil in his deception of a third of the angels are not specifically given in the Bible, however, the above text says that the devil is a liar and the father of lies.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/11/06 08:21 PM

The text also says he was a murderer from the beginning. If we use the logic you suggest we will have to conclude that Lucifer was created as a murderer. I don't think that is palatable to anyone.

The best type of deception usually is based on the truth. A lie is not required.

Posted By: Redfog

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/11/06 09:14 PM

Could it be that the word "beginning" means the beginning of the Earth?

Redfog

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/11/06 09:32 PM

That approach won't do much for how the world thinks of how we treat our holy book. We can't continue to manipulate the evidence to get us to the point we desire.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/12/06 12:00 AM

From the beginning is from the beginning of when Satan began telling his lies. Lucifer was created perfect, as Scripture states. But he was created with free will, and used the free will to deceive others, robbing God of His servants by leading them to sin, which leads to death (making him a murderer as well).

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/12/06 12:49 AM

How do we justify this convenient treatment of a singular text of Scripture?

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/12/06 02:11 AM

By "singular" to you mean "single"? What's there to justify?

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/12/06 02:18 AM

Tom,

I agree with your post as that is how I see the text I quoted.

Anybody knows that the devil wasn't created a murderer and a liar. I am surprised that Darius would even say that in his post as he should know better than that.

The devil was created like the rest of us and like all the other angels, with the ability to free choice.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/12/06 02:28 AM

I still dont understand the point of trying to prove that the devil is just basically a good guy who has been missunderstood for the past thousands of years. Why? Can anyone tell?

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/12/06 03:16 AM

Daryl, I was simply showing what the logic you applied leads to. We cannot change the hermeneutics so we can get the results we want.

Vaster, if you don't understand your enemy you also don't understand yourself. If you are willing to tell a lie just to make your enemy look bad you are no better than he is. That is not what an ambassador of the King of Heaven would do. Honesty is required in all things.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/12/06 10:26 AM

I agree that honesty is the way to go. I am not convinced that what you are presenting is true. "Becourse I say so" isnt the best way to convince theology oriented people such as those who are likely to hang around a forum like this. Maybe having a look at what the bible says about the enemy would be more profitable than arguing about what it doesnt say. Does the bible anywhere give direct evidence to back your hypothesis that the devil is a hugely missunderstood guy who is both more honest and alot nicer than is generally thought.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/12/06 02:56 PM

Vaster, honesty includes correctly reflecting what a poster said. I have never said that the devil "is a hugely missunderstood guy who is both more honest and alot nicer than is generally thought." You keep trying to cast that interpretation over my statements in the hope that it will turn people off. It would be must better for all of us if you restricted yourself to what I say. If you must interpret stay away from the extreme projections.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/12/06 04:19 PM

Most people here say that the devil is a liar, based on the genesis account and what Jesus said about him. You state that the devil did not lie. Thus, if you are right, the devil is missunderstood. The possible extreme projection here is my use of "hugely".

Quote:

I have looked very closely at Gen. 3 and there is no lie told by the serpent in that passage.

You have also claimed that the devil did not and could not know what would happen when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. Thus you are saying that the devil was honest when he said that the first humans would not die.

Quote:

The serpent did not deny what the Creator said. He simply suggested, or stated, or emphasized, that the Creator's threat was an empty threat. It would have been a lie if he had said, God did not say you shall surely die. Lucifer had no way of knowing what the time frame for death was. He had never seen anyone in a similar situation nor was he stupid enough to directly attack the Creator.

You dont say that the devil is nice anywhere I have found in this thread, however, if you compare the pictures given with one group saying that the devil is lying, murdering and destroying and compare it with the picture of a devil who though he wanted to separate people from God would not lie, murder nor destroy in order to do so. As "nicer" is a comparative word I think its not dishonest to use it to describe this difference in oppinion. Again the possible projection made is the addition of "alot".

Quote:

Lucifer wanted to be like God. When Michael confronted him (Rev. 12:7) about his desires he realized that Michael was part of the "Godhead." Who else could have read his mind? The fact that he was consulted gave him a feeling of equality with the Godhead. It was not love he rejected. He never rejected the love of the God. He was actually depending on it.

Finaly, to illustrate extreme projections, why not quote the following:

Quote:

You keep trying to cast that interpretation over my statements in the hope that it will turn people off.

All of the quotes comes from posts you have made in this thread. Do you still protest my summary of your postings on the topic of the devil?

/Thomas

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/12/06 04:50 PM

Vaster, all I ask is that you show me the lie he told in Gen. 3. No speculation. Just show me. Don't get sidetracked by the other stuff. We know he is a liar and a deceiver.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/12/06 04:52 PM

Vaster, what is the evidence to support this claim? "You dont say that the devil is nice anywhere I have found in this thread, however, if you compare the pictures given with one group saying that the devil is lying, murdering and destroying and compare it with the picture of a devil who though he wanted to separate people from God would not lie, murder nor destroy in order to do so." This now deliberate. Maybe Daryl will step in here.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/12/06 05:18 PM

What about it? You want me to get the quotes for you, or you could reread your own posts youself.

As for the other question, many have already replied and I doubt you will accept my reply any more than you have the others.

2:17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

3:4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Lets repeat.
God said:
thou shalt surely die.
the serpant/devil said:
Ye shall not surely die:

"Shall surely die" vs "shall NOT surely die". Its a little inserted word that changes the meaning of the sentence 180 degrees. The two sentences are each others oposites. Both cannot be true at the same time. Either someone dies or someone does not die, there is no middle ground.

Also, I cant help but find it ironic that you complain about me rephrasing and making summary of how I understand your posts (and providing quotes) and yet at the next breath say that this compleate reversal of meaning found in these two texts are not a lie.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/12/06 06:12 PM

Vaster, we can consider the facts or we can ignore them. You have made your choice. I am not here to find support for the position I hold but to find the truth of what is reported. What we have here is a problem with comprehension so there is nothing that can be added.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/12/06 06:40 PM

Fact is that the difference between the two verses considered is transcribed 'lo , and this in other situations make the difference between "righteousness" and "unrighteousness", between "order" and "disorder", between "violence" and "not-violence", all examples found in this webpage. These are the facts of the hebrew text.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/12/06 07:40 PM

Vaster, hopefully it won't be too long before you realize that you have to consider Lucifer to be equal to the Creator to hold the position you hold. I am sure you recall that this is what he wanted; to be like the Most High.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/12/06 10:45 PM

Darius,

What Thomas, whom you are referring to as Vaster, is saying makes sense to me, which I believe I also stated in an earlier post.

Here is the point-by-point summary of it all ending with a question:

1 - God said that they would die.
2 - The devil said they wouldn't die.
3 - Both can't be true, therefore, one of them is a lie.
4 - Which one is a lie?

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/12/06 11:36 PM

We have gone off on a tangent but it demonstrates how much trouble we get into when we only read part of the story. You did not say all that God said. You did not account for Lucifer's prior experience. You did not say all that Lucifer said would happen. You did not quote where God said that Lucifer's prediction of what would happen was correct. In other words, your attempt to reduce all that occured to that final question is not a good use of the text. With that approach you will always miss the truth. Read the story through carefully without the influence of the end at which you seem determined to arrive.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/13/06 12:39 AM

If I listen to a knowledgeable person telling me about A, and I then I listen to a dummy giving his/her oppinion on the same subject, if I then let the uninformed oppinion overrule the informed facts I will give the appearance that they are equal or maybe even that the dummy is above the knowing person. This appearance will however have nothing to do with reality nor will it change objective reality even though it may affect my subjective reality. That humans have an unfortunate affinity for the devils lies does not in any way change neither the fact that it is mere lies nor that the devil will always be entierly uncomparable to his Creator just like the rest of us.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/13/06 12:49 AM

Thomas, I hope you are not the kind who classifies individuals then determines their veracity based on the classification. Your post above betrays the inexperience of youth. Being knowledgeable does not overcome basic human fallibility. Many times so-called dummies have alerted the educated to fundamental errors in judgement. You should not be a respecter of persons. You should judge each argument on its merit, not by who utters it. The latter does not belong to individuals enlightened by the Scientific Age. We should each think for ourselves. If you read EGW's writings you may recall that she advocates for individuals who are not mere reflectors of other men's thoughts. My education does not make my word of more importance than any other person's.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/13/06 01:08 AM

In general you are right ofcourse. But let me give you an example that I think will illustrate my point. Say you wanted to learn how to do downhill skiing. You first ask a skiing instructor who shows you. Then comes along a person who for their entire life has lived in Florida and has never ever before seen either snow nor skies, giving you their guess on how to do downhill skiing. Both giving advice does not detract from the fact that only one of them has any idea of what he is talking about. Nor does it make a skiing instructor of the Floridan if you choose to heed his advice rather than the advice from the professional instructor. However it may change your objective reality by sending you overconfident down a steep hill crashing into something and sening you to the local hospital.

NOTE: This example is not intended to insult Floridans, it is not unlikely that the situation would be the reverse if the sport had been for instance sailing rather than skiing.

/Thomas

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/13/06 03:22 PM

Thomas, why would you take advice without making certain it is of relevance to your situation? The bottom line is that you are unable to show that the Bible teaches anything other than that the entire human race has already been saved.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/14/06 12:25 AM

Darius,

The reason I didnt manage to show this is that I was trying to show that the devil was a liar in the garden of Eden. No wonder we are getting nowhere if we are talking about fundamentally different questions.

Quote:

Thomas, why would you take advice without making certain it is of relevance to your situation?

This, Darius, is the question we have been trying to get at the last days. Why indeed, except that we know it has been done again and again troughout history.
The relevance for skiing of the advice of someone who knows nothing about skiing is comparable to the relevance of the devil giving Eve advice about dying in Eden.

/Thomas

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/14/06 03:35 AM

Thomas, a quick look at the topic of the thread should settle any questions as to what it is addressing. Even so, the side issue was not whether he was a liar but whether he lied to the Woman in his exchange with her. Liars don't always tell lies.

I am trying to figure out why so many people think that Lucifer had an obligation to cooperate with anyone else but himself. By this time he was the enemy of the kingdom of heaven. He certainly was an authority on what happens to a being who finds himself "on the wrong side" but I don't get your skiing analogy though. The Woman did not go seeking for advice. She was speaking up for her Master. Too bad she overdid it and opened herself up for the serpent's coup de grace, as it were.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/14/06 04:38 PM

An expression like "find himself 'on the wrong side'" conveys the idea that Lucifer was innocent in what he did, which speaks of God in an unflattering way. Didn't God do everything possible to convince Lucifer He was in error? Wouldn't God have been willing to give His Son for Lucifer as much as for man, had it been possible to effect a change in Lucifer?

Knowing God's character as it is revealed in Christ, can we not know that Lucifer did not "find himself" on the wrong side, but rather was recalicitrant?

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/14/06 05:42 PM

He was recalcitrant because he then chose to remain on the wrong side. Until that choice Lucifer was not in rebellion. Having made that choice he then recruited other angels to help him fight back. Read Rev. 12:7-9 carefully.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/16/06 07:20 AM

You write that Satan was recalcitrant because he chose to remain on the wrong side. Well of course! How else could it have been? Until he chose to rebel, he wasn't in rebellion.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/20/06 05:02 PM

So, it is obvious that he arrived in a situation and refused to leave it when it was brought to his attention. One cannot "sin" before one is in a sinful state.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/21/06 09:31 PM

Quote:

Darius,

What Thomas, whom you are referring to as Vaster, is saying makes sense to me, which I believe I also stated in an earlier post.

Here is the point-by-point summary of it all ending with a question:

1 - God said that they would die.
2 - The devil said they wouldn't die.
3 - Both can't be true, therefore, one of them is a lie.
4 - Which one is a lie?

Darius,

You never did answer this post, quoted above.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/21/06 09:44 PM

Daryl, your analysis is wrong. You are missing the larger picture. Adam and Eve did not die. Of that we are certain. How we try to spin that depends on the assumptions we wish to maintain. I find it amusing that we continue to make the same mistake Lucifer made in trying to make a unnecesary case against him. The mistake is not understanding what "surely die" means. I get the impression that some think that they can get a longer sentence for Lucifer if they make a bigger case against him.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/21/06 09:51 PM

The last I checked, Adam and Eve were dead.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/21/06 09:54 PM

That is the kind of reasoning that makes non-believers shake their heads in disbelief.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/21/06 10:34 PM

Then, Darius, with your reasoning in that Adam & Eve didn't die, you are saying that God lied?

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/21/06 11:41 PM

Non-believers know where Adam and Eve live? Howcome noone told the believers?

Seriously, Darius, does your argument assume that Adam and Eve would have died anyhow and that sinning only changed what would happen during their lives?
If someone who would othervise not have died dies becourse of a cause and effect situation, one would be right in saying that the cause would kill them even if they didnt die right at the spot.
But if someone who was destined to die within some kind of lifetime span experiences the same cause and effect situation and does not die for anoth 8-900 years it could be questioned wether the cause really had anything to do with the death.

So, does your argument assume that Adam and Eve where bound to die anyhow even if they had not sinned?
If you do not argue that they would have died wether they sinned or not, then your argument makes no sence.

/Thomas

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/22/06 12:49 AM

Sometimes I wonder what is going on. Every single individual will tell you that a death sentence that takes 70 years to be administered is no death sentence at all. We are too simplistic if we try to reduce this exchange to whether God lied or not. We are reading an account that was written thousands of years after the event in a language no one here is fluent in by a scribe who was not present. Let us demonstrate the level of sophistication that the document requires. I want to see the brave soul here who will claim that Lucifer understood what the prohibition entailed.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/22/06 12:53 AM

Thomas, it is obvious you don't understand what my argument is. Humans are not immortal. They never have been. That should be enough to chew on.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/22/06 01:33 AM

If Adam and Eve had never sinned, they never would have died.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/22/06 02:12 AM

Daryl, that is not the issue here. I never claimed otherwise. Let us keep to the issues.

Posted By: Redfog

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/22/06 03:29 AM

What are the wages of sin? Death. It matters not if it happens right then at the sin or a thousand years thereafter, it is still sin that caused the death.

Darius your reasoning that something is not valid because it was written long ago in another language is close to blasphemous. What you are saying is that God cannot protect His Holy Scripture down through the ages. That is limiting the power of the Creator of the universe. And it's also an excuse some people use that wish to pick and chose what scripture is valid. It's a view that puts human reasoning above God's word. This is dangerous ground you tread Darius. If you can't trust the word of God how can you trust God? If you cannot trust His Word the next logical step is to say there is no God. Darius, be very careful.

Redfog

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/22/06 07:35 AM

If Adam and Eve had never sinned. God warned them if they sinned they would die. They sinned, and they died. How is the serpent not lying in this scenario?

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/22/06 10:40 AM

Darius

That Adam and Eve would NOT have died had they not sinned IS the issue. A death sentence that takes 70 years to complete is no sentence for humans only becourse the average human is about to die at that age anyhow. A death sentence to be carried out within 70 years would have been feelt and noticed by Adam who would have had his lifespan cut with some 90%. Its all in its proper perspective.

/Thomas

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/22/06 12:34 PM

The argument that a death sentence that is carried out decades after it was pronounced could also be used to prove that USA do not carry out any death penalties since the convicts are imprisoned for 10-20 years before executed. I guess such a conclution would make some people happy..

/Thomas

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/22/06 03:03 PM

Redfog, be careful how you read. I never said anything was invalid. It is this tendency to read into what we read what we already have in our minds that causes loads of problems. And the selective way in which it is allowed to happen here says volumes.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/22/06 03:15 PM

After reading the faulty reasoning used here it is no wonder that there is a fear of the gift of logic and reason. We can only hope.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/22/06 03:45 PM

Yes, it is an issue as this is the basis on which you said the serpent/devil didn't lie.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/22/06 03:48 PM

Darius, as usual, your posts do not make any sense, but are rather confusing, almost all of the time, as all you do is go around in circles, which doesn't make for good communication between you and any of us, therefore, I wonder what your purpose is in posting at MSDAOL?

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/22/06 04:19 PM

Daryl, what is confusing about the fact that we, as part of the human race, have all been saved. Just because I refuse to run off behind every rabbit you guys throw out there in the hope of scoring points you decide to say I am confusing. That is all fine and dandy. The truth remains. You are free to hold on to your theology.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/22/06 04:23 PM

Quote:

Yes, it is an issue as this is the basis on which you said the serpent/devil didn't lie.

Wrong again. I have to wonder how you guys read. I clearly said that the reason the serpent could not have lied is because he did not know all the truth nor did he understand the prohibition. He had fought a war in heaven and he had not died. To lie you must know the truth. The fact that you disagree with some other authority that you no longer recognize does not mean you have lied. And telling lies about a bad guy does not do us credit either.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/22/06 08:32 PM

Darius,

Are you saying that the devil didn't hear what God told Adam?

Quote:

Gen. 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Or, are you saying that the devil knew about the Plan of Salvation, and that Christ would die in their place?

Which is it?

One thing I do agree with you, and that is both Adam and Eve were saved from instant death and the second death when the Plan of Salvation went into effect. Since they were then the whole human race, the whole human race was saved from instant death and from the second death.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/22/06 08:58 PM

Daryl, read the Gen. 3 account again. There is no question that Lucifer intended to woo the Woman away from the Creator. He responded to what the Woman told him and he was under no obligation to push the case of an authority he did not recognize. Only the Creator knew how mortality worked. Lucifer was contradicting what the Creator said but he was not lying because he did not know.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/22/06 10:13 PM

If you were told that the consequences of disobedience would be death, wouldn't you have asked what death was?

I am certain both Adam & Eve, and the devil knew that death was cessation of life, that death was the opposite of life.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/22/06 11:35 PM

I would not, unless I thought disobedience was inevitable. The original pair had not intention of straying. I notice you consistently pretend that Lucifer had not disobeyed before. Well, he had and he was still alive. As they say, actions speak louder than words.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/23/06 12:34 AM

What did Jesus have in mind when He said that Satan was a liar from the beginning?

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/23/06 01:00 AM

His listeners did. The message was for them. I am certain you are able to figure out that when Jesus borrowed the well-known story about the rich man and Lazarus that He did not really mean that the rich man went to hell when He died, or do you?

Posted By: Redfog

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/23/06 05:16 AM

Darius using logic is not the best way to approach the study of the Bible. So many things in the Bible are not logical, they have to be accepted on faith.

Let's take Creation. If we look at science today then it is very hard to believe that God created the earth in a literal week. (Or at all) So are we to do the logical thing and believe in man and his evidence or do we in faith believe God? It is mans word vs Gods. I chose to believe God. Same goes for the flood, man says the flood was localized thing. Who is right? Man or God? We can not approach Biblical study from a intellectual point but from a on our knees point. Intellectually the Bible is a bunch of half baked fairy tales, but when we are led by the Holy Spirit we will believe that the Bible was right and our faith will grow.

Redfog

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/23/06 05:47 AM

Redfog, why would God give man the gift of logic if it was as flawed as you want us to believe? The very first verses of the Creation account scream out that the account should not be used the way so many Christians try to use it. What you call faith is nothing more than gullibility -- a willingness to accept a view regardless of the evidence. Whether the creation took place in six days is irrelevant to the fact that we are here and must live our lives to the fullest. None of us was there so none of us can speak with any real authority on the subject. But I would let you know that the Genesis account is as much man's word as are the conclusions of scientists. No one can read Genesis and say with a straight fact that the Creator told Moses how he created the universe. The very idea that six days were needed to create this single earth while all of the vast universe was created in one day (the fourth day) is ludicrous.

Here is a challenge: Please tell me on which of the six days of creation water was created.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/23/06 06:52 AM

Saved is the opposite of being lost. When someone gets lost someone goes out and saves him. When someone is kidnapped someones goes out and saves him. If someone is in difficulty someone goes out and saves him. The basic assumption is that the person is first deemed worthy of being saved and that the person did not voluntarily place himself in that difficult situation. The person may not even know he is in trouble. The person does not have to ask for salvation and acceptance is assumed. A lifeguard does not leave a drowning man because the drowning man resists the lifeguard's efforts. We know what it means to need salvation but we have allowed theologians to mess with our minds.

Posted By: Redfog

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/23/06 06:53 AM

In this sinful world our logic is flawed. Well at least mine is, maybe yours is not:)

To say that faith=gullibility is a bit much don't you think?

Observe the following text:

Luke 17:19
And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy gullibility hath made thee whole.

I challenge you to go to a Bible search engine and look up all the texts that have the word faith in them and read them using the word gullibility. You will soon see how foolish this idea is.

What day was water made. You know Darius I really don't know, nor is it really that important to me. What certain things mean in the account of Creation I'll wait and ask God about. However the Creation account as a whole is very important, it is what the whole Bible hinges on. From Salvation to the Sabbath, without a literal creation nothing else in the Bible makes any sense. But then you don't believe the Bible is the inspired word of God, and yet you quote the Bible....

So where do you put your faith? The Bible or your own logic? The Creator or the created? You have to have faith to believe in your own logic.

Redfog

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/23/06 06:59 AM

Redfog, certainly we often use flawed logic but the fact that we can identify flawed logic is the key. Obviously we know what good logic is. We have no such mechanism for identifying when a theologian is off the hook.

Your reasoning is flawed when you equate a literal six-day creation with a literal creation. A literal creation does not have to be in six-days.

Your reasoning is further flawed when you suggest that when the word faith is used in the Bible it is being used in the same way you use it here. In fact, faith in the Bible bears no resemblance to what you are speaking of. In the Bible faith is never a tool of belief. Faith is what enables you to move into the future and all men have the measure of faith, regardless of their ideology.

Posted By: Redfog

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/23/06 01:58 PM

Darius how can you believe that the earth was created by God if you don't believe in the Biblical account of Creation? How can you even believe in God if the Bible is wrong on the Creation? Without faith in the Bible how can you make any statements of belief? Of course to you having faith in anything means you are gullible. I'd not want to live in your world, it must be scary.

Redfog

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/23/06 04:13 PM

Redfog, you last posts essentially states that the Creator is a creation of the Bible because unless the biblical account is true He/She cannot exist. That is an appalling position to hold.

Posted By: Redfog

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/24/06 12:31 AM

Darius tell me something, where did you learn about God and creation? Without the Bible how much would you know of these things?

The Creator is not the creation of the Bible, however it is in the Bible that I learn of the Creator. And with the Holy Spirit working on my heart I can have the assurance that the Bible is correct. Without a personal relationship with God all things spiritual are nothing but useless fluff.

Redfog

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/24/06 01:45 AM

This "Creator is a creation of the Bible" would indeed be an end to the religion presented to us trough the bible.

But what if you reverse it into "the bible is a creation of the Creator"? Where would that leave you?

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/24/06 01:50 AM

What does this mean?

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Posted By: asygo

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/27/06 09:15 AM

Jesus told us that few find the road to life, while many find the road to death. The apostles described to us the kind of people who have eternal life, and those who don't.

It seems that there is a distinction being made in this thread between being saved and receiving eternal life. Although salvation can be considered universal, no definitive evidence has been presented that shows eternal life to be universal. The closest to it is the hypothesis that someday, all the wicked will exchange the wages of sin for the gift of God.

Paul says that those who are in trespasses and sins are dead. He also says that we can become dead to sin and alive to God. As far as I can tell, that is a significant conversion.

Obviously, if one experiences that conversion, eternal life will give him the opportunity to rejoice in his salvation. On the other hand, if one does not experience that conversion, what good will his salvation do him if he's dead? The way I see it, even if "salvation" is universal, only those who have eternal life will reap its benefits.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/27/06 03:15 PM

Asygo, Jesus spoke about finding roads; He did not reference which road you follow to the end. I think we forget that Jesus is the greatest intelligence in the universe. We miss His fine distinctions then try to impose our kindergarten interpretations on Him.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/27/06 03:21 PM

Surely Jesus would make his teaching relative to our capacity to understand it. Would make little sence to first be born as a human and go trough all that Jesus went trough and then teach in such a way that people wouldnt understand it.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/27/06 04:18 PM

Who said we can't understand it? We have muddied the waters. It is not his fault we have refused to use the brains He created us with.

Posted By: asygo

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/28/06 11:45 PM

Quote:

Darius: Asygo, Jesus spoke about finding roads; He did not reference which road you follow to the end. I think we forget that Jesus is the greatest intelligence in the universe. We miss His fine distinctions then try to impose our kindergarten interpretations on Him.

Assuming we can trust Matthew's reporting skills, Jesus said,

Quote:

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (Matthew 7:14)

Obviously, if few find the road, few will get to its end. Unless there was a method, of which I am unaware, to reach the end of the road without first finding that road. If Jesus made such a distinction, I totally missed it.

But Jesus made a distinction between two kinds of resurrection:

Quote:

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:29)

If we're looking for distinctions in Christ's teachings, this is one of the big ones: There is life, and there is damnation. If we put the evidence together, we should see that if few find the road to life, most will end in damnation.

Yes, Jesus is the greatest intelligence there is, but He is also the kindest. When we come to Him as children to be taught, He explains Himself in ways understandable to us. Whoever accepts all that He says will leave the darkness and walk in the light as He is in the light.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/29/06 12:08 AM

The road you follow to the end is Jesus Christ. He is the way, or road. Christ did specify this.

He that has the Son has life. He that has not the Son has not life.

It's not complicated, difficult, or arbitrary. Life can only be found in God.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/29/06 12:37 AM

And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that.

Posted By: asygo

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/29/06 12:39 AM

Amen, Bro Tom. He is the Way, and His promise is sure:

Quote:

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13)

If one fails to find Him, it is not because it is impossible. The problem is in the heart.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/29/06 12:50 AM

Asygo, please read the passage without your theological filters. You are unintentionally changing the meaning of what Matthew reported. First, many go in at the broad gate. Second, few find the strait gate. There is a reason He did not say many find the broad gate. You don't have to find the broad gate because it is a gaping hole; you don't have to look for it. It is easy to go in. But the strait gate is different. It must be sought and if you seek you will find. That is all the passage addresses. You have gone further and superimposed on that passage the idea that once you enter the gate you are bound to remain on the road behind the gate. That cannot be found in the text. Nothing prevents those who have "fallen into" the broad gate from retracing their steps and seeking the strait gate. Nor are those who find the strait gate are so selfish that they won't call out to those who have "fallen into" the broad gate to join them in the strait gate. Whenever we allow our theology to color or interpretation the result is a false representation of the Creator and we end up doing the enemy's work. Stick to the text.

Posted By: asygo

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/29/06 01:34 AM

Quote:

Asygo, please read the passage without your theological filters. You are unintentionally changing the meaning of what Matthew reported. First, many go in at the broad gate. Second, few find the strait gate. There is a reason He did not say many find the broad gate. You don't have to find the broad gate because it is a gaping hole; you don't have to look for it. It is easy to go in. But the strait gate is different. It must be sought and if you seek you will find. That is all the passage addresses.

Bro,

Based on your description above, we seem to be wearing the same "theological filters." Surprising, no?

Quote:

You have gone further and superimposed on that passage the idea that once you enter the gate you are bound to remain on the road behind the gate. That cannot be found in the text.

Really? Read the text I wrote (not what you think I wrote), and you will find that the idea you ascribe to me cannot be found in the text.

What is in my text is that unless one finds the road to life, damnation is certain.

Quote:

Stick to the text.

Sage advice, that also applies to the sage.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/29/06 01:53 AM

Quote:

Sage advice, that also applies to the sage.

This is good. I think I'll steal it.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/29/06 01:56 AM

Quote:

Mat 7:12 Treat others as you want them to treat you. This is what the Law and the Prophets are all about.
Mat 7:13 Go in through the narrow gate. The gate to destruction is wide, and the road that leads there is easy to follow. A lot of people go through that gate.
Mat 7:14 But the gate to life is very narrow. The road that leads there is so hard to follow that only a few people find it.
Mat 7:15 Watch out for false prophets! They dress up like sheep, but inside they are wolves who have come to attack you.
Mat 7:16 You can tell what they are by what they do. No one picks grapes or figs from thornbushes.
Mat 7:17 A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that produces bad fruit will be chopped down and burned.
Mat 7:20 You can tell who the false prophets are by their deeds.
Mat 7:21 Not everyone who calls me their Lord will get into the kingdom of heaven. Only the ones who obey my Father in heaven will get in.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/29/06 04:14 AM

Asygo, I did not say you said it. I said you superimposed the idea on the text. That is the only way you could arrive at the conclusion you have that the text implies that there will be more in hell than in heaven. Being silent does not mean you have said nothing.

Posted By: asygo

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/29/06 04:29 AM

Quote:

Mat 7:14 But the gate to life is very narrow. The road that leads there is so hard to follow that only a few people find it.

In light of that, I don't see the purpose of wrestling over the concept of universal "salvation." If one is saved, yet damned, what's the difference?

It would be much more fruitful to figure out how to find the road that leads to life, how each individual can receive God's gift - eternal life in Christ Jesus.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/29/06 04:38 AM

I agree with your last sentence though you have misconstrued the text to get to your first sentence. Christ said how we can get life eternal in John 17. Why the church insists on trying something different must astound Him.

Posted By: Redfog

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/29/06 04:48 AM

Mat 7:13 Go in through the narrow gate. The gate to destruction is wide, and the road that leads there is easy to follow. A lot of people go through that gate.
Mat 7:14 But the gate to life is very narrow. The road that leads there is so hard to follow that only a few people find it.

How much clearer does it get? Few will be saved, pure and simple. More people will be lost than will be saved. Everyone has the choice to believe what the Bible says, but few will.

Redfog

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/29/06 05:18 AM

Redfog, that is not what the passage says. That is what you read into it.

Posted By: asygo

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/29/06 05:22 AM

Quote:

Asygo, I did not say you said it. I said you superimposed the idea on the text. That is the only way you could arrive at the conclusion you have that the text implies that there will be more in hell than in heaven.

Perhaps that is the only way you could think of to arrive at my conclusion. But as you implied earlier, God created us with brains. Who knows, you might discover that some of us use ours. And our ideas are not limited by what you can think of.

Quote:

Being silent does not mean you have said nothing.

Rather than assuming some unspoken idea that I may have superimposed, you can always ask me why I say what I say. I don't mind. We may still disagree in the end, but at least it won't be based on an uninformed guess.

Unless you've picked up some clairvoyance at a yard sale, we would do well to "stick to the text."

Posted By: asygo

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/29/06 05:41 AM

Quote:

I agree with your last sentence though you have misconstrued the text to get to your first sentence.

Perhaps you can explain how only a "few" will find the road to life, yet more than a "few" will avoid damnation. That would be enlightening.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/29/06 05:43 AM

Finding the road says nothing about getting to the end of the road.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/29/06 05:44 AM

Good try, Asygo, but that boat won't float.

Posted By: asygo

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/29/06 06:00 AM

Quote:

Finding the road says nothing about getting to the end of the road.

True. He who endures to the end will be saved.

But NOT finding the road guarantees never getting to the end. And if only a few find the road to life, at best, only a few will find life in the end.

Posted By: asygo

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/29/06 06:08 AM

Quote:

Good try, Asygo, but that boat won't float.

Now that is an enlightening response. How can anyone even think to bother arguing against that?

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/29/06 06:17 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Finding the road says nothing about getting to the end of the road.

True. He who endures to the end will be saved.

But NOT finding the road guarantees never getting to the end. And if only a few find the road to life, at best, only a few will find life in the end.

You complain then turn around and demonstrate that your complaint is unfounded. Your entire thesis is based on the idea that one can only find the road; one cannot be led or directed to the road. That is not in the text.

Interestingly, you seem to apply endurance only to the narrow road. Why does it not apply to the broad road? Are you suggesting that once you get on the broad road you can never get off it but even though you get on the narrow road there is no guarantee you will stay on it? There is a logical flaw in that argument.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/29/06 07:30 AM

Quote:

Mat 7:14 But the gate to life is very narrow. The road that leads there is so hard to follow that only a few people find it.

Boy, what an awful translation this is!! The road that leads to life is not hard to follow at all! It's the road to hell that's hard to follow!

Yet do not therefore conclude that the upward path is the hard and the downward road the easy way. All along the road that leads to death there are pains and penalties, there are sorrows and disappointments, there are warnings not to go on. God's love has made it hard for the heedless and headstrong to destroy themselves. (MB 139)

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Matt. 11:28-30

Arnold, I'm not taking issue with what you're saying regarding Universalism, just with this awful translation.

The word translated "broad" is "euruchoros" which means "wide." It doesn't mean hard.

Anyone who is a Christian knows it's harder to live in harmony with God's will than to live in rebellion. As Jesus said to Paul, "It's hard to kick against the pricks." Also Proverbs, "The way of the transgressor is hard."

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/29/06 07:35 AM

The broad road *is* hard to stay on, but unfortunately many demonstrate tenacious obstinance, and stay on it regardless of how much love God throws at them.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/29/06 07:37 AM

How should we summarize the theology being discussed here? Floating your boat to the end of the road?

Posted By: asygo

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/29/06 10:32 AM

Quote:

Your entire thesis is based on the idea that one can only find the road; one cannot be led or directed to the road. That is not in the text.

Bro Darius,

If you're going to make claims about my thesis, at least find some text to support your claim. You're so busy reading between the lines that you totally miss what's on the line.

It is amazing how much you can misunderstand what I'm saying, while I'm available to clarify myself. It strains my imagination to think how much you could possibly misunderstand the Bible writers who are no longer around to explain themselves.

Quote:

Interestingly, you seem to apply endurance only to the narrow road. Why does it not apply to the broad road? Are you suggesting that once you get on the broad road you can never get off it but even though you get on the narrow road there is no guarantee you will stay on it? There is a logical flaw in that argument.

Indeed, you have found the fatal flaw in that argument. Men of straw in your general vicinity all quake in fear.

If you are ever inclined to find out, feel free to ask me what I mean. Do not trust what "seems" accurate to you, because it is obviously not trustworthy in this case.

Now, to answer your two questions:

Why does it not apply to the broad road? It can.
Are you suggesting that once you get on the broad road you can never get off it but even though you get on the narrow road there is no guarantee you will stay on it? No.

Posted By: asygo

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/29/06 10:33 AM

Quote:

Arnold, I'm not taking issue with what you're saying regarding Universalism, just with this awful translation.

I know what you mean. I just copied/pasted from a previous post. I'm not sure what version it is.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/29/06 03:15 PM

Asygo, I have found it unprofitable to hold a conversation with someone who says one thing then swears he did not say it. Such exchanges usually evoke the kind of insults you have tried to throw here. I have found that there are much better ways of wasting time.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/29/06 03:17 PM

Quote:

The broad road *is* hard to stay on, but unfortunately many demonstrate tenacious obstinance, and stay on it regardless of how much love God throws at them.

That's a great theory. We have no certainty that it has happened because in spite of our claims to have divine knowledge we just do not know which among us is on either road.

Posted By: asygo

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/29/06 07:56 PM

Quote:

Asygo, I have found it unprofitable to hold a conversation with someone who says one thing then swears he did not say it.

Your evidence to support that assertion is as comprehensive and compelling as your evidence to prove that "all have been saved."

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/29/06 08:12 PM

Asygo, remember Galileo. Don't let his experience be in vain.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/29/06 09:18 PM

Remember Aristotle too.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/30/06 12:36 AM

Quote:

Remember Aristotle too.

Of course, the church got in trouble with Galileo because it was selective in how it used Aristotle. We are stil suffering the results of that mess.

Posted By: asygo

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/30/06 01:15 AM

Galileo formed his beliefs based on evidence. The church was dogmatic in its beliefs, regardless of the lack of evidence. Yes, some still suffer from that malady.

Posted By: Darius

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/30/06 01:19 AM

The church still suffers from that malady and teaches its people to maintain the same approach of knowledge that supports it.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/30/06 02:29 AM

Quote:

Galileo formed his beliefs based on evidence. The church was dogmatic in its beliefs, regardless of the lack of evidence. Yes, some still suffer from that malady.

Oh that it were just some!

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 06/30/06 01:00 PM

Anyone care to retell the story about the church, aristotle and galileo?

Posted By: asygo

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 07/03/06 11:48 PM

Here's my ultra-quickie version:

The church believed the dogma that the universe revolved around the earth. Galileo, with the help of his new telescope, believed and taught that the earth was not the center of the universe. The church, in spite of their lack of non-metaphysical evidence, did not like that and forced him to recant.

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 07/04/06 12:16 AM

It's interesting that they had plotted the courses of the heavenly bodies assuming they revolved around the earth, which were extremely complicated. Making the assumption that they revolved around the sun made the orbits look a lot like circles, which had a certain elegant appeal to it. Occam's razor.

Theologically we do the same thing, often preferring long-winded complicated scenarios for reason of tradition and dogma, when much simpler explanations exist.

Posted By: asygo

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 07/06/06 02:39 AM

Bro Tom,

I also noted some similarities, but a little different from yours.

- Galileo's church believed that it was very important for the earth to be at the center of everything - the universe revolved around humanity. This was supposedly based upon inspiration, but it was not.
- Today, there are many theories that place man at the center. We are, as they were, and as fallen Adam was, selfish. That fact casts its shadow upon our theology. But inspiration is clear that God is at the center. Period.
- The ancients assumed that orbits were circles, since that was the "perfect" way. But astronomy (as opposed to superstition) not only displaced the earth from the center of the universe, but it squished the orbits - closer inspection showed them to be ellipses. A few hundred years later, even the ellipses were discarded. Things are not always as simple as we would like.
- Like razors we use in the morning, Occam's Razor is good for cutting out unwanted stubble, but it could cut your neck if used too much. As Einstein supposedly said, "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler."
  
  All else being equal, the simpler explanation is preferred. But when "all else" is not equal, we must sometimes discard the simple in favor of the complex. In my experience, tradition and dogma contribute both complex and simple explanations, where other options may be closer to reality. The trick is to use the razor wisely.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 08/03/06 10:17 PM

There's nothing wrong with tradition as long as it doesn't conflict with the Scriptures.

Posted By: Redfog

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 08/05/06 04:29 AM

By the same token there is nothing wrong with new things. Like new music, new fashions, new technology, new theology, etc. As long as it does not go against scripture lets not forego either traditions nor things modern.

Posted By: asygo

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 08/05/06 08:46 AM

I agree with both of you. Neither "traditional" nor "modern" things are inherently bad. But going against God's will, that is inherently bad.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 08/06/06 04:21 AM

...but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Posted By: asygo

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 08/08/06 01:06 AM

Can we conclude that the statement, "We have all been saved," is true if and only if the speaker and the hearers are all doing the will of God?

Or are there finer points to this topic? Are there aspects of salvation that we can say we have already experienced, while other aspects are still future? Are claims of salvation limited to those who do the will of God, or are the disobedient entitled to some aspects of salvation? If so, from what are the disobedient saved?

Posted By: Tom

Re: We Have All Been Saved - 08/08/06 01:43 AM

Quote:

Are there aspects of salvation that we can say we have already experienced, while other aspects are still future?

Yes there are aspects which we can say all have already experience. Imagine your one a bus which is heading off a cliff, and someone saves the bus, preventing it from crashing, thus saving your life. You have been saved, in a sense.

The human race was on a bus heading off, ready to be crashed and killed. God saved the human race by giving us His Son.

Even though we are all on the saved bus, we can still use our life, which has been saved, to choose to reject God, in which case we will be lost. To continue with the bus analogy, the fact that we were on a bus which was saved, doesn't prohibit us from getting on another bus which is heading of a cliff.

To say that we have been given a probation expresses a similar thought, but doesn't bring out the thought that Christ has actually done something which benefits the entire human race as strongly. What needs to be understood is the cost of our (first bus) salvation. This should invoke gratitude from us, leading us to get on the (second bus) salvation bus.

We didn't have any choice about the first bus, but we do the second.

Jesus Christ is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.