work for the church

Don't know where else to post this, but here goes. I bought an industrial printing press to do work for my SDA church. I make 40,000 post cards every few months and a church member gives me $900 to do it, which is what they paid an outside print shop to do it before I came along.

The paper costs about $300 and there is the cost of ink, running a big dehumidifyer and air conditioner especially for the machines.

I make less than 50% profit off of this and takes days each week in labor. Now I have been told this is "tithe money" and given the guilts for the profit part of the deal.

Some people at the church already think I'm a spineless wus because I do a lot of other work for the church free. I like donating my labor to the church but I feel this is going too far in expecting someone to donate. I think it's wrong to deny me any profit from making the postcards just because I'm a member of the church, and the funds are called "tithe".

I decided to give the whole card making job back to the church member who foots the bill. He can find someone else in town. Am I wrong here? I would appreciate comments on this by as many of you who will.

IMO, using tithe money for printing postcards is unacceptable, whether given to a church member or to a professional printer.


It is not sin to do church work for free; freely ye have received, freely give. However, neither is it a sin to be paid fairly for your work; the laborer is worthy of his wages. But the tithe a earmarked by God for a special purpose; postcards wasn't it.

If appropriate money is used, I don't see any problem with you doing it, and keeping the profit. I don't see any inherent problem with you doing it for free either, with the exception that such a set up might constitute poor stewardship of your time and resources.

Question, it seems you might have reason to believe that the money actually isn't tithe. Do you know wether it is tithe or not?

Comment, freely choosing to donate time and labour to the church does not make you a spineless wus, now letting someone shame you into doing something you would not freely do or into not doing something you want to freely do would be different.

If it turns out that the person who paid you to print the cards was paying from the wrong purse, giving up the job is maybe the right thing to do. But if you give up the job because of resentment, towards the gossipers at church or towards the person who let out the tithe rumor or maybe just generally being tired of the whole situation where you who do much for the church have to put up with *** from people who perhaps talk more than they walk... Somehow it seems to me that they would win if you give up. Don't let the talkers drag you down into the bog of mediocracy.

His telling you it is tithe money doesn't make it so. If he's using money to pay you to print cards for the church then it is not tithe money. He still owes that much in tithe to God.

I think you should keep up the printing, it is for the work of the lord. God will not give you more than you can handle, and clearly you CAN handle this amount of work, with the given amount of money. God works hard for you, can't you work hard for His mission?

Just my opinion, personally, there's nothing I wouldn't do for God, and any job in His name is worth doing for free.

Does God expect us to work free for the church or for His causes? Or, does He promise the laborer is worthy of his hire?

I agree that tithe money ( which this church member said it was last week) should be given to the ministry. So I refused to take it. When I started making the cards 2 years ago, this member did say the quote some of you mentioned: "The workman is worthy of his hire." So, I thought it was payment for a service. But suddenly now, he calls it tithe.

I have only my SS funds to live on, as I'm elderly and handicapped, so can forget about making them with my own money.

The church member can give his "tithe" to some worldly printer who might go spend whatever profit he makes on booze or girls. I guess I do feel more than a bit manipulated, judging by the sarcasm that just leaked out of my keyboard here.

If the church member is using tithe to fund this project, someone must tell him that he needs to stop, regardless of who does the printing. Since you are involved, perhaps you are the best one to do it.

Again, just because he calls it "tithe" doesn't make it so. He still owes tithe to the Lord because how he is using it doesn't qualify as tithe. Symantics? I doubt it!

I understand all this much better. He does need to know this not how to use tithe. I won't make the mistake of Ananias. Thanks all of you.

My thoughts are also that some manipulation could be going on.

Hey fun2believe,

Nice to see you back on the forum.

MM:Does God expect us to work free for the church or for His causes? Or, does He promise the laborer is worthy of his hire?

F2B:He does indeed promise a just reward, and you will get it when you meet up with Him!

I think all injustices should be brought to light, if that is infact what they are. You can't make something right if you dont' know it's wrong.

F2B, thanx for answering my question. In some cases, payment for what we do for the church will be received in heaven. But in Skylynx's case, he should be paid for the print work while here on earth. He needs the money.

But how do we KNOW he needs the money? I'm not saying he's making that up, but what if this is the work of the Lord? What if this is a trial, something God is teaching? Is it right for US to decide what is right, or is it up to God to decide? What if God does not want him to have the reward now, but later in heaven? Personally I think he should be paid for work done as well, but I'm sure I don't have all the answers to others questions, I'm just human.

And in general, when should we listen to man, and when should we take the advice of God over man?

F2B: And in general, when should we listen to man, and when should we take the advice of God over man?

MM: When we know the difference, right? Sometimes they coincide and sometimes they conflict. When they conflict, and we're sure about it, we must adhere to God's counsel and advice. Otherwise, we should probably hold our peace. Silence is golden when words are worthless and worldly.

Yeah, but how do we know the difference? Is there anything to use as a gauge? What if they conflict for me, but not my pastor? Or what if most people agree, but others don't?

What if we take the advice of someone we respect, and feel is correct, but learn later that they were wrong, or have done some very serious offenses against God?

I love to look to those older and wiser than myself, but how do I know when to listen to them or God?

Yeah, but how do we know the difference? Is there anything to use as a gauge? What if they conflict for me, but not my pastor? Or what if most people agree, but others don't?

What if we take the advice of someone we respect, and feel is correct, but learn later that they were wrong, or have done some very serious offenses against God?

I love to look to those older and wiser than myself, but how do I know when to listen to them or God?

You are a professional printer, they must pay you a agreed upon amount. At that point you can give the profit back as offering or a 10% for tithe or more as you decide in you heart. Whether you make a profit or loss is none of their concern.


Church members/pastors can be hustlers as well as outright con artists trying to get a better price or deal out of other church member. It is dishonest, unchristian, and in some cases rises to the level of robbing a person of their money or panhandling.

Dont let them shame you, con you or force you to give one penny that you do not decide on your own. It is wrong for the pastor try to force more money out of his members from the pulpit, and it is wrong for him or a deacon, elder, or member to try to force money out of another member in business, at home, or in the street.Anyone that tries to do that should get just a nice "Thanks for asking, but no".

Now if they ask upfront at the start in a honest and loving manner with sincerity and you feel impressed to give, that is another matter, and you must decide as the Spirit moves your heart...


Just in case they arent clear on the concept of a offering or tithe, be prepared to enlighthen them.....

Main Entry: of·fer·ing
Pronunciation: \ˈȯ-f(ə-)riŋ, ˈä-\
Function: noun
Date: before 12th century
1 a: the act of one who offers b: something offered; especially : a sacrifice ceremonially offered as a part of worship c: a contribution to the support of a church
2: something offered for sale or patronage <latest offerings of the leading novelists>
3: a course of instruction or study

Main Entry: 1tithe
Pronunciation: \ˈtīth\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): tithed; tith·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English teogothian, from teogotha tenth
Date: before 12th century
transitive verb
1 : to pay or give a tenth part of especially for the support of the church
2 : to levy a tithe on
intransitive verb
: to give a tenth of one's income as a tithe

If they need scripture, begin with the following...


15 "You shall not steal.

16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard
1"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. 2He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
3"About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4He told them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' 5So they went.

"He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. 6About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?'

7" 'Because no one has hired us,' they answered.
"He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.'

8"When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.'

9"The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12'These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'

13"But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'


Never should a member be coerced out of his agreed upon wages........

Is this helpful?

Proverbs
11:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Amen, my brother....too many pastors have gone toward the incorrect impression of "the Lord helps those that help themselves" instead of "God loveth a cheerful giver..."

So if I ask 100 pastor's, and get roughly the same answer, then that's the right answer? Is that what you are saying? The majority answer is always the right answer?

Where can I find a multitude of counsellors to answer my questions? And how many is a multitude? What if I'm just one counsellor short of a multitude? Does that diminish the correctness of the answers? What if they don't all agree, or come to a split decision?

So many questions, so few answers

You're right, F2B, there are a lot of unanswered questions, but there are way more unasked questions. So, in the meantime, what do we do with our poor pitiful selves? Why not walk in the light you have accepted as truth and revel in it with all your heart, mind, body, and soul? There's no reason I can think of to pine and piss away because we don't have all the answers or because we don't know all the questions. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but I'm sure you've met people who are. A dreadful lot, eh!

Psalm
89:15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance.

John
7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.

John
12:35 Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.
12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light.

Ephesians
5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now [are ye] light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

1 John
1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Of course we need to seek wise counsellors, not just any will do.

As I recall Absalom chose unwise counsel.

Richard,

I agree with you.

Skylynx you may consider that, Pacific Press, as they do the "Lord's work", expects to be paid for their printing jobs. Even if it comes from sales or designated offerings.

A person shouldn't be coheresed into "giving" through manipulation and coniving. Rather it should be a joyful thing, between the person on God.

Seems like this church member is robbing you some of the joy.

Well my wife was forced to fork over thousands to the church from her commission for work for the church or lose it, guess which one she chose...You think its hard to pull a nickle out of my fingers, try to steal a penny from hers.....

When you give a offering it is from love overflowing from your heart, tithe is for helping Gods work by taking care of the ones bringing us His truth.

For anyone at church to try to force, or use pressure get money out of you, in my opinion is the same as a person on the street or internet taking your money using trickery or subterfuge.......no diference, same sin...

it's another sin. Yep, we've picked out another way people sin against God. We must let others know of these terrible ways in which we are working against the Lord. Let us all pray for salvation from the devil's handiwork.

F2B, what is your story? You seem upset or disgusted. What's going on? How do you define sin and righteousness? Why did Jesus have to live and die? How do you define the great controversy motif? What is God trying to accomplish with the plan of salvation?

Why do you think that? Is it because I see sin rather matter of factly? Becasue I do. If you know it's wrong to do something, and you do it anyway, you've sinned. And that's wrong, on many levels. Even if you ask for help from God, and you continue to do whatever it is, you've sinned, and that's not the way to heaven.

I think it's wrong for people to just ask for forgiveness, and yet do NOTHING about what's wrong. I don't think God wants us to just "say" we are doing something about our sinful ways, He expects us to do better than that. If it was just words and thoughts that mattered, this would be a very different situation. We must make physical changes in our lives, stop doing things that we KNOW are wrong, stop hurting the One who can help us the most.

I guess I'm a little upset that so many good people try to be a better person by "saying" they are changing their sinful ways, and yet not really seeing the big picture. I think God has an expectation that we be better than that, to really make a change, not just talk about it,or feel bad about our actions. There are physical consequences for those who sin against God, so we must make physical changes to NOT sin.

Sorry if I'm a little hot under the collar today, or if I come across that way. I don't mean to be, and I'm doing something about it. I know this is a sin for me, and now I'm doing something about it. It's a way to vent, to find the real problem, and make a change. You see? I'm taking care of me, I've asked for Gods help, and He has given me the power to be a better person. I don't want to sin, I work with the Lord to live as He has instructed us to, and I'm getting better already.

F2B: You see? I'm taking care of me, I've asked for Gods help, and He has given me the power to be a better person. I don't want to sin, I work with the Lord to live as He has instructed us to, and I'm getting better already.

MM: Amen. But how do you define sin and righteousness? Why did Jesus have to live and die? How do you define the great controversy motif? What is God trying to accomplish with the plan of salvation?

Sin= breaking Gods laws\
Righteousness= being under God's umbrella

Jesus had to live and die to save our souls.

God's plan for salvation is to save as many souls as are willing to repent, and take Him as our Lord, and no other.

F2B, do you have inspired references to support what you just posted? Where does it say sin is breaking God's laws? Where does it say righteousness is being under God's umbrella? Where does it say Jesus had to live and die to save our souls? Where does it say the plan of salvation envisions Jesus saving penitent sinners who worship none other than God? And, what about the great controversy motif? How do you define it? What are your inspired references?

Sorry, don't have any. I guess I'm wrong because I can't point to a book and show you where others have said this or that. I think then you could make the argument that Jesus was wrong too? Did he point to books and show people where these ideas came from? I know you want me to point it out, underline these ideas on paper, but I won't. If I have to show you in a book to get to heaven, then I guess I'm not going. The above items are pretty clear as they are. I think most anybody would agree that to break the law of God is sinning.

I don't have "inspired references" and I don't think I need to have any. I think there's more to knowing God's character than ONLY reading it in a book. How do others who will be saved, but have NEVER seena bible, or anything by SOP? Is it from knowing the character of God? Or will they not be saved, just because they can't quote some text?

I'm pretty sure that you could easily provide all the exact pages and phrases for the questions you've asked above. And if you need those pages and phrases, by all means, use them. But currently you are making me feel bad just because I can't point them out in a book. I don't think I'm wrong for loving God, and that's my inspiration.

F2B: But currently you are making me feel bad just because I can't point them out in a book. I don't think I'm wrong for loving God, and that's my inspiration.

MM: Feel bad if you need to, but the fact is you don't want to prove what you believe from the Bible or the SOP. Why not?

Jesus never said "go with your gut feeling". Instead, He said something entirely different. If you take the time to read what He said about it, you wouldn't be so unwilling to base your beliefs on a "thus saith the Lord". At least, I hope so.

PS - Yes, there will be people in heaven who never heard of the Bible or the SOP. But this doesn't apply to you, does it? You are fully aware of both, as such God holds you accountable to know it and to show it. Otherwise, the following applies to you - "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee."

hello friends yes i believe that we must strive to get the same character that our dear Lord has and yes its possible.we will strive and strive till the day of the Lord has arrived its a continual thing,but we will get there,but on our way there let us tell the strangers and family about our love for the Lord and what he has done for me and you.when we look in the mirror and truely see ourselves for what we really are it must make us wonder how Jesus really do love us.but thats the love he has for us and its the love that we must have and give to all others no matter what.do you know what i was brought up a sda but it was not until this january that i really found truth and love in God,why because i wanted to do what i wanted.and i was bad really bad.ive broken everything in the law in facti believed i was has bad has satan himself.then for some reason this january something happened to me in bed one night,i broke down and i really mean broke down.i could not stop crying for ages.and i prayed for help.from that night my life is one for Christ and all sinners who i talk to.i feel free really free.i do not even think about my past,its like Jesus said i love you and forgive you all your iniquities,work for me.and thats what i am going to do.so look to that other person who is without Jesus and tell them do not feel afraid.let us praise the lord all the time,in fact since that night thats all i do everytime i awake or walk the streets i pray and talk to Christ.thanks for your time .

Lindax, that you so much for sharing your testimony. It makes my heart sing to know you are living for Jesus with all your heart, mind, body, and soul. Congratulations.

I do believe that Jesus did point to "books" (the Old Testement Scriptures)

Luke 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

fun2believe, A few more things regarding your comment, "I think then you could make the argument that Jesus was wrong too? Did he point to books and show people where these ideas came from?"

From my study, I find your comment to be in error or perhaps you are just asking a question? or I am not understanding it correctly.

Do you not agree that Jesus is our example? Should we not follow his example, and be able to give a simple thus saith the word of God?

Remember that when Jesus was in the wilderness tempted by satan, Jesus answer was, it is written.

The subject of Christ's teaching and preaching was the Word of God. He met questioners with a plain "It is written." "What saith the Scriptures?"