Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE

Posted By: Daryl

Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/23/07 05:50 PM

This is our final lesson study not only for this quarter but also for this year.

Here is the link to the lesson study material:

http://ssnet.org/qrtrly/eng/07d/less13nkjv.html
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/23/07 05:54 PM

Memory Text: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46, NIV).

Such a crucible that the Lord went through for us!
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/23/07 07:07 PM

The Sabbath afternoon section spoke about risk.

The teachers portion of the quarterly has a few interesting questions about that, which I want to ask here:

1 - What was the nature of the risk taken by God in creating humans with free will?

2 - Did free will mean that the Fall was inevitable?

3 - What was the risk of Christ's attempting to redeem us?

4 - Could Christ have failed?

5 - What would failure have meant to Him and to us?

6 - Why did the Fall make Jesus Christ's mission necessary?

Some of these questions are definitely loaded questions, as has been demonstrated from other topics here at MSDAOL.
Posted By: asygo

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/24/07 10:29 PM

I think Tom and Rosangela will like this week's lesson.

No, free will did not make the Fall inevitable.

Did God know in advance that the Fall was going to happen? The lessons says He did.
Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/24/07 10:58 PM

Not having yet read any of the lesson, I am wondering how the author will mess up one or another concept this week.
Posted By: Johann

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/25/07 01:24 AM

 Originally Posted By: västergötland
Not having yet read any of the lesson, I am wondering how the author will mess up one or another concept this week.


What are your expectations?

Merry Christmas to all!
Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/25/07 02:19 AM

Maybe too high.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/25/07 09:53 PM

 Originally Posted By: asygo
I think Tom and Rosangela will like this week's lesson.

No, free will did not make the Fall inevitable.

Did God know in advance that the Fall was going to happen? The lessons says He did.

If free will didn't make the Fall inevitable, and I am not saying that I disagree with you, then what did?
Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/25/07 10:08 PM

Must something have made it inevitable? Sometimes things happen without having to do so by nessecity.
Posted By: asygo

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/26/07 09:17 AM

 Originally Posted By: Daryl Fawcett
 Originally Posted By: asygo
I think Tom and Rosangela will like this week's lesson.

No, free will did not make the Fall inevitable.

Did God know in advance that the Fall was going to happen? The lessons says He did.

If free will didn't make the Fall inevitable, and I am not saying that I disagree with you, then what did?

I don't know that it was ever inevitable. But if I had to choose, I would say distrusting God's love. Here are the steps Eve took:
  • distrust God's love
  • doubt God's word
  • disobey God's command

We do the same thing today.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/26/07 06:14 PM

What role does risk have to play in all of this free will stuff?
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/26/07 06:15 PM

Could Christ have failed in His sphere just as Adam and Eve failed in their sphere?
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/26/07 06:19 PM

While we continue to ponder over all the questions I listed earlier and these latest ones, we need to see if we can answer these by looking at the early stages of Christ's life.

Unlike Adam and Eve who were created as adults, Christ came to this planet as a baby just like the rest of us did, therefore, what do we know of the early days of Christ's life? This takes us to Sunday's study.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/26/07 06:22 PM

Luke 2:7 tells us that Christ was born in a lowly stable and was placed in a manger.
 Quote:

Luke 2:7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

I would say that Christ's beginning as a baby in a manger in a stable was a very humble beginning for Him.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/26/07 06:32 PM

Luke 2:22-24 tells us that Christ didn't come from a rich family. Remember, this event in the temple took place before the three wisemen arrived with their gifts.
 Quote:

Luke 2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;)
24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

Here is a Bible Commentary about this from Adam Clarke's Bible Commentary:
 Quote:

A pair of turtle doves, etc. - One was for a burnt-offering, and the other for a sin-offering: see Lev_12:8. The rich were required to bring a lamb, but the poor and middling classes were required to bring either two turtle doves, or two pigeons. This is a proof that the holy family were not in affluence. Jesus sanctified the state of poverty, which is the general state of man, by passing through it.

Reference was given in the above quote to Lev. 12:8, however, I am going to quote Lev. 12:6-8 below:
 Quote:

Lev. 12:6 And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled, for a son, or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or a turtledove, for a sin offering, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest:
7 Who shall offer it before the LORD, and make an atonement for her; and she shall be cleansed from the issue of her blood. This is the law for her that hath born a male or a female.
8 And if she be not able to bring a lamb, then she shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons; the one for the burnt offering, and the other for a sin offering: and the priest shall make an atonement for her, and she shall be clean.

We also see the committment of both Mary and Joseph in that they brought Christ to the temple in accordance with the law.

We, therefore, see the humble and poor beginnings of the life of Christ and of the beginnings of Mary's and Joseph's faithfulness in preparing Christ for His future ministry, which they probably really didn't fully understand what that would involve.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/26/07 06:41 PM

Then enters two other elements into the early days of Christ's life, which you can read for yourself in Matthew 2:1-18.

This is where we see the three wisemen bringing gifts to the Christ child, however, this is also where we see Herod sending soldiers in an attempt to kill the Christ child.

As it says in Sunday's study:
 Quote:

Of course, Jesus was not the first person to live in poverty or to face those who wanted to kill Him, even from an early age. There is, however, another element that helps us understand the uniqueness of what Christ suffered from the earliest times.

Even as a very young child, Christ was already faced with a premature death, however, the angels of God watched over Him and protected Him from all pre-mature deaths, until He came to the tree of Calvary, where He died willingly and voluntarily for us.

Between the manger and the cross, Christ went through many crucibles for us.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/26/07 06:44 PM

John 1:46 brings yet another element into the picture:
 Quote:

John 1:46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.

What is "Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? in reference to?
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/26/07 06:57 PM

In answer to the last post, it seems that Nazareth wasn't a very reputable place, therefore, as Christ lived there as a child, Nathanael may have had a hard time with Christ being the Promised One of John 1:45 quoted below with verse 46:
 Quote:

John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.

I found the following from Sunday's study interesting in relation to Christ's life leading up to His basptism by John The Baptist:
 Quote:

With the exception of Adam and Eve before the Fall, Jesus was the only sinless Person who ever lived on the earth. In His purity, in His sinlessness, He was immersed in a world of sin. What a torture it must have been, even as a child, for His pure soul constantly to be in contact with sin. Even in our hardness because of sin, we ourselves often shrink away at sins and evil that we find repulsive. Imagine what it must have been like for Christ, whose soul was pure, who wasn't the least bit tainted by sin. Think of the sharp contrast between Christ and others around Him in that regard. It must have been exceedingly painful for Him.
Posted By: asygo

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/26/07 11:54 PM

Every contact with evil was painful to Christ. His whole life was one giant crucible.

So what right do we have to complain about anything? None.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/27/07 12:39 AM

The questions at the bottom of Sunday's study are thought provoking.
 Quote:

Ask yourself, "How sensitive am I to the sins that exist all around us? Does it bother me, or am I hardened to it?" If you are hardened to it, could it be because of the things you read, watch, or even do? Think about it.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/27/07 12:45 AM

Monday's study is about Christ being despised and rejected of men.

I am reminded of the following verse:
 Quote:

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Jesus was divine, the Creator of heaven and earth.

He came to offer Himself as a sacrifice for the sins of the whole world, yet they rejected Him in that they received Him not.

Whether by leaders, or even by the common people, Jesus' life, acts, and teaching were constantly misunderstood, leading to rejection and hatred by people He came to save.

That's what Jesus faced while here on earth. How painful it must have been for Him.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/28/07 05:38 AM

We often think of Christ's suffering on the Cross, however, I think He suffered most in Gethsemane as brought out in Tuesday's study.
 Quote:

Whatever Jesus suffered through His 33 years here on earth, nothing compared to what He started to face in the last hours before the Cross.
Posted By: asygo

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/28/07 06:12 AM

As Christ entered the garden of Gethsemane, he bade his disciples remain near the entrance, while he took Peter, James, and John with him a short distance. Then urging these three to watch and pray, he left them. The Saviour desired to be alone with God, that he might wrestle with him in prayer. The agony that pressed upon his soul was not for the physical suffering that he must endure. He was feeling the offensive character of the sin that he must bear. He must suffer the penalty of the broken law, and bear the Father's wrath. {YI, April 11, 1901 par. 2}
Posted By: asygo

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/28/07 07:48 PM

Christ's keenest anguish was a sense of His Father's displeasure. His mental agony because of this was of such intensity that man can have but faint conception of it. {AG 171.2}

If the sufferings of Christ consisted in physical pain alone, then His death was no more painful than that of some of the martyrs. But bodily pain was but a small part of the agony of God's dear Son. The sins of the world were upon Him, also the sense of His Father's wrath as He suffered the penalty of the law transgressed. It was these that crushed His divine soul. {AG 171.3}
Posted By: Johann

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/28/07 08:19 PM

 Originally Posted By: asygo
Christ's keenest anguish was a sense of His Father's displeasure. His mental agony because of this was of such intensity that man can have but faint conception of it. {AG 171.2}

If the sufferings of Christ consisted in physical pain alone, then His death was no more painful than that of some of the martyrs. But bodily pain was but a small part of the agony of God's dear Son. The sins of the world were upon Him, also the sense of His Father's wrath as He suffered the penalty of the law transgressed. It was these that crushed His divine soul. {AG 171.3}


How does this relate to the memory verse? How important are the words Jesus expressed in the memory verse to us? Could they be some of the most important words recorded in the Bible?
Posted By: Tom

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/28/07 11:59 PM

 Quote:
Whether by leaders, or even by the common people, Jesus' life, acts, and teaching were constantly misunderstood, leading to rejection and hatred by people He came to save.

That's what Jesus faced while here on earth. How painful it must have been for Him.


His teachings are still misunderstood. It's still painful for Him.
Posted By: asygo

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/29/07 12:02 AM

The AG quote explains exactly the reason why Matthew 27:46 exists. Jesus did not cry in anguish over the physical pain He suffered, but because of the sense of the Father's withdrawal, His displeasure and wrath against sin. And One whose eternal existence was spent in the most intimate communion with the Father was now experiencing the terrible curse of sin - separation from God.

 Quote:
Again Christ went away, and prayed that if it were possible this cup might pass from him. His soul was filled with an overpowering fear of separation from God in consequence of sin. {ST, June 3, 1897 par. 6}

And not for our sins only, but for the sins of the world - every single sin in the history of mankind!

Is Christ's agonizing cry important? Absolutely! If not for the events that wrenched those words from His lips, we would have no hope, no life.

Even the most impenitent, the most wicked reap benefits from Christ's suffering. For we owe even this temporal life to Christ's taking that cup and draining it to its dregs.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/29/07 12:13 AM

These comments leads us into Wednesday's study titled The Crucified God from which I read the following:
 Quote:

Clearly, something much more was happening here than just the death, however unfairly, of an innocent man. According to Scripture, God's wrath against sin, our sin, was poured out upon Jesus. Jesus on the cross suffered not sinful humanity's unjust wrath but a righteous God's righteous indignation against sin, the sins of the whole world. As such, Jesus suffered something deeper, darker, and more painful than any human being could ever know or experience.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/29/07 12:17 AM

The comments and quotes also really covers Thursday's study titled The Suffering God.
Posted By: Tom

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/29/07 12:24 AM

 Quote:
According to Scripture, God's wrath against sin, our sin, was poured out upon Jesus.


What Scripture says this?
Posted By: Tom

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/29/07 12:28 AM

A point that should be brought out is that God was crucified with Christ. God did not actually treat Jesus badly. Jesus *perceived* God as taking a certain attitude towards Him, because of the impact of sin upon His mind (sin does that to us), but God was never closer to Christ than when His Son was suffering on the cross. God left heaven to be close to Christ, shrouding His glory, so that the very wretches that His Son was dying for, that they were torturing, would not be destroyed.

Also worth mentioning is that God was not angry at His Son. That should even have to be brought out, but some seem to think that Christ was a surrogate for sin, and God felt towards His Son as He felt towards sin. God never stopped loving His Son.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/29/07 05:39 AM

I think the following EGW quote will help us in finding the Scripture reference:
 Quote:

Man has not been made a sin-bearer, and he will never know the horror of the curse of sin which the Saviour bore. No sorrow can bear any comparison with the sorrow of Him upon whom the wrath of God fell with overwhelming force. Human nature can endure but a limited amount of test and trial. The finite can only endure the finite measure, and human nature succumbs; but the nature of Christ had a greater capacity for suffering. . . . The agony which Christ endured, broadens, deepens, and gives a more extended conception of the character of sin, and the character of the retribution which God will bring upon those who continue in sin. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ to the repenting, believing sinner. {AG 168.4}
The sword of justice was unsheathed, and the wrath of God against iniquity rested upon man's substitute, Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father. {AG 168.5}
Posted By: Tom

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 12/30/07 06:24 PM

How does it do that, Daryl? First of all, EGW's statement says that God's wrath "fell" upon Christ, and expressed it in terms of the sorrow which Christ felt. The idea EGW is communicating appears to me to be in harmony with the Scriptural idea expressed in the following texts:

 Quote:
20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

22And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. (Romans 4)


This speaks of Christ's being "delivered" for our offences. The word "delivered" is the same used for "given up" in Romans 1, which expresses this in terms of the wrath of God.

 Quote:
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; (Romans 1)


How is the wrath of God revealed? By God's "giving them up," or "delivering" them. This is the same word used in the Greek. Therefore God's wrath against Christ was revealed by God's giving Him up.

Here's another text that brings this out:

 Quote:
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: (Acts 2:23)


Christ was delivered up by God, and taken by wicked men to be crucified.

Now here is the statement I was questioning:

 Quote:
According to Scripture, God's wrath against sin, our sin, was poured out upon Jesus.


If this is meant to communicate the idea that God's wrath was exercised by His delivering up Christ to be crucified, then I agree with the thought, and Scriptural texts to support it would be the ones I provided. From the Spirit of Prophecy I see the same argument made that I made. For example, she writes that

 Quote:
Christ felt much as sinners will feel when the vials of God's wrath shall be poured out upon them. (The Sufferings of Christ, page 10)


The vials of God's wrath are a reference to the plagues of Revelation, of which she writes:

 Quote:
I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress, and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey. And storm and tempest both by sea and land will be, for Satan has come down in great wrath. (14 MR 3)


Back to my question. Where does Scripture teach that "God's wrath against sin, our sin, was poured out upon Christ."?

I don't think your suggestion that EGW's statement helps us locate such a verse is accurate primarily because she is not saying the same thing the statement I quoted is. I think she is saying the same thing that Paul and Peter are saying.

Since EGW was brought up, let's ask the question, what specifically did God do during this terrible time of suffering of Christ?

 Quote:
In that thick darkness God's presence was hidden. He makes darkness His pavilion, and conceals His glory from human eyes. God and His holy angels were beside the cross. The Father was with His Son. Yet His presence was not revealed. Had His glory flashed forth from the cloud, every human beholder would have been destroyed. And in that dreadful hour Christ was not to be comforted with the Father's presence. He trod the wine press alone, and of the people there was none with Him. (DA 753, 754)


The statement that "He makes darkness His pavilion" is a reference to Psalm 18 where God's trip from heaven to earth to be with His Son in His suffering is described.

God left heaven to be with Christ in His sufferings. This hardly presents the idea of God's "pouring out His wrath" upon Christ!

Here's a comment by Waggoner, of whom Ellen White wrote "he can teach righteousness by faith better than I can".

 Quote:
A propitiation is a sacrifice. The statement then is simply that Christ is set forth to be a sacrifice for the remission of our sins. "Once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." Heb. 9:26. Of course the idea of a propitiation or sacrifice is that there is wrath to be appeased. But take particular notice that it is we who require the sacrifice, and not God. He provides the sacrifice. The idea that God's wrath has to be propitiated in order that we may have forgiveness finds no warrant in the Bible. (Waggoner on Romans 3)
Posted By: asygo

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 01/01/08 02:13 AM

 Quote:
He felt that by sin He was being separated from His Father. The gulf was so broad, so black, so deep, that His spirit shuddered before it. This agony He must not exert His divine power to escape. As man He must suffer the consequences of man's sin. As man He must endure the wrath of God against transgression. {DA 686.3}

As the substitute and surety for sinful man, Christ was suffering under divine justice. He saw what justice meant. Hitherto He had been as an intercessor for others; now He longed to have an intercessor for Himself. {DA 686.4}

As Christ felt His unity with the Father broken up, He feared that in His human nature He would be unable to endure the coming conflict with the powers of darkness. ... With the issues of the conflict before Him, Christ's soul was filled with dread of separation from God. Satan told Him that if He became the surety for a sinful world, the separation would be eternal. He would be identified with Satan's kingdom, and would nevermore be one with God. {DA 686.5}

The sins of men weighed heavily upon Christ, and the sense of God's wrath against sin was crushing out His life. {DA 687.1}

We see all these bad things that Jesus was feeling. Was Christ's suffering and pain only caused by His perception, or was there an actual separation from God?

In another place, I think you implied that Christ's perception was mangled by sin. IOW, what He thought was happening wasn't really happening because sin had messed up His mind. Am I right?

But note in the following quote that the angelic hosts - not tainted with sin in any way, including imputed sin - saw the same thing as Jesus did.

 Quote:
But God suffered with His Son. Angels beheld the Saviour's agony. They saw their Lord enclosed by legions of satanic forces, His nature weighed down with a shuddering, mysterious dread. There was silence in heaven. No harp was touched. Could mortals have viewed the amazement of the angelic host as in silent grief they watched the Father separating His beams of light, love, and glory from His beloved Son, they would better understand how offensive in His sight is sin. {DA 693.2}


Obviously, the Father was there at the cross. But it is equally obvious that Jesus literally suffered the wages of sin - separation from God.
Posted By: Tom

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 01/01/08 02:29 AM

 Quote:
Obviously, the Father was there at the cross. But it is equally obvious that Jesus literally suffered the wages of sin - separation from God.


I agree with this, but what caused Jesus to suffer this separation? If God didn't separate from Christ, then it must have been something other than God.

 Quote:
But God suffered with His Son. Angels beheld the Saviour's agony. They saw their Lord enclosed by legions of satanic forces, His nature weighed down with a shuddering, mysterious dread. There was silence in heaven. No harp was touched. Could mortals have viewed the amazement of the angelic host as in silent grief they watched the Father separating His beams of light, love, and glory from His beloved Son, they would better understand how offensive in His sight is sin. {DA 693.2}


It seems to me that what God did was to allow Christ to be "enclosed by legions of satanic forces," and to suffer the other things that Christ suffered. This must be what the phrase, "they watched the Father separating His beams of light, love, and glory from His beloved Son" means. What else could it mean? There weren't literal beams of light appearing on Christ which God turned off. They watched as Christ was besieged by evil mean and angels, and God allowed this to happen.

This is in harmony with the Biblical witness: e.g.

 Quote:
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: (Acts 2:22, 23)


In short, we see Christ suffering because of what sin does, not what God does.
Posted By: Johann

Re: Lesson Study # 13 - Christ in the CRUCIBLE - 01/01/08 11:59 AM

 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall


In short, we see Christ suffering because of what sin does, not what God does.


And this is in harmony with Isa 59:2 which states that our sin separates us from God.
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