Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree?
Posted By: Daryl
Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/06/05 03:39 AM
The lesson study for Tuesday, December 28, 2004 is titled
Satan's Earthly Exile.
I want to draw your attention to this part of that study:
quote:
Read Genesis 3:1. Compare it with Genesis 2:16, 17. What ploy did Satan use to set his trap?
How fascinating that Satan used a mixture of truth and error. He took a direct command from God and simply rephrased it in a way that sounded almost as if he were repeating what God said, only he put a different spin on it. In other words, he mixed just enough truth with error in order to make it sound right.
Read Genesis 3:2,3. What does it say about Eve's knowledge of God's command and, thus, her responsibility for her action?Though deceived (1 Tim. 2:14), Eve, by her words, showed that she knew what God had told her to do. That's a powerful lesson for us: We could save ourselves a lot of heartache, sin, and deception if we simply obeyed the clear commands of God, no matter how much we might not understand a certain situation or all the variables in it. Deplorable as Eve's sin was, Adam transgressed with eyes wide open. Even amid their ignorance, they could have saved themselves from deception simply by obeying God, trusting that His way was the best way, even when they didn't fully understand it.
Read Genesis 3:6. What were the things about the tree that led Eve to disobey? What principles were at work there? How are these same principles manifested today?
I now want to quote Genesis 3:1-7 below:
quote:
Genesis 3:1
Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.
And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And
the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And
the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And
when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise,
she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and
gave also unto her husband with her; and
he did eat.
7 And
the eyes of them both were opened, and
they knew that they were naked; and
they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Was Adam also there with Eve during the conversation between her and the devil through the medium of the serpent?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/06/05 04:13 AM
Nope. Even a casual reading of the SOP makes it clear Adam wasn't with her. And the Bible implies it. Adam resolved, unwisely, to die with his beloved wife. But Jesus offered them forgiveness and salvation.
1 Timothy
2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Posted By: John H.
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/06/05 05:35 AM
Even reading the Bible by itself it's pretty clear.
If Adam had been with Eve at the tree, it would certainly seem that he would have been conversing with the serpent as Eve was. But we have no record of that; just Eve and the serpent talking.
When God came looking for Adam and Eve, the answers they gave to Him show what happened:
Genesis 3
12 "And the man said, The woman whom Thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat."
If Adam had been with Eve when the conversation with the serpent took place, wouldn't Eve have said, "The serpent beguiled
us"? Wouldn't Adam have said something about the serpent beguiling him as well?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/06/05 06:14 AM
Pardon my being picky, but God actually *gave* Adam and Eve salvation, not just offered it. He unilaterally acted to save the race in a physical sense, and His gift of the animal skin to cover their nakedness represents the gift of Christ's righteousness to cover their spiritual nakedness.
Posted By: John H.
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/06/05 06:19 PM
I'd say 'offered' is correct, and so is 'gave.' He didn't force them to put on the skins; they had to choose to do so. Just like in Rev. 3:20, He stands at the door and knocks. He's not trying to kick it in. We have to choose to open the door and let Him in.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/06/05 08:07 PM
I agree with John, and for the same reasons. God forces no one to receive the gift of salvation. But He does offer it with strong incentives. Thank you, Jesus.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/07/05 03:01 AM
The reason why I created this topic was that somebody I know stated that the Bible clearly states that Adam was with Eve based on this verse:
quote:
Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
How would you respond to this person?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/07/05 03:57 AM
The way John did.
Posted By: John H.
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/07/05 11:29 PM
We can get more insights by looking at God's pronouncements of punishments/consequences:
quote:
Genesis 3
14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
"Because thou hast done this..." What is the "this" that God is referring to? In the verse just previous, Eve said, "The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat." There's no mention of the serpent beguiling Adam, so that's what God is punishing the serpent for; beguiling Eve. And only Eve.
quote:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Notice that it's not stated as putting enmity between the serpent and Adam, or the seed of Adam. That's because the serpent beguiled Eve, not Adam.
quote:
16 Unto the woman He said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
That's hardly fair, to make Eve subject to Adam's rule, if Adam was standing right beside Eve when the serpent beguiled her, and Adam did nothing to stop her.
quote:
17 And unto Adam He said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Why does God tell Adam the ground is cursed, and all these other sorrows? "Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife." Not the voice of the serpent.
All of the foregoing makes it pretty plain that Adam was not with Eve at the tree.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/07/05 11:44 PM
Yes, the Bible does clearly imply that Adam wasn't there with Eve when the serpent beguiled Eve.
The way God interacted with Adam and Eve, and dealt with the serpent, with Eve, and with Adam testifies to that.
Posted By: Restin
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/08/05 03:32 AM
So, does anyone know how "nakedness" and the privates got into this about covering with skins? I've never been able to see what is the real connection between the first sin (eating a forbidden apple) and being ashamed of the genitals.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/08/05 04:42 AM
Restin,
I will only say that Adam and Eve being ashamed of their nakedness was a result of their sin of eating the forbidden fruit, however, since your question is geared to go off into a side-topic that isn't compatable to this topic, if you, or anybody else, wish to speak further about that, please create a separate topic on that, but do not continue with it here.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/09/05 05:10 AM
Everybody has been given the gift of salvation. Everyone lives physically because of that gift. The question is what each will do with the gift. Will it be spent selfishly, as the prodigal son did before he repented, or will the gift be appreciated and cherished?
Adam and Eve were actually saved in a sense by a unilateral gift on the part of God, irrespective of their own actions. Here's an explanation of this fact:
quote:
By rebellion and apostasy man forfeited the favor of God; not his rights, for he could have no value except as it was invested in God's dear Son. This point must be understood. He forfeited those privileges which God in His mercy presented him as a free gift, a treasure in trust to be used to advance His cause and His glory, to benefit the beings He had made. The moment the workmanship of God refused obedience to the laws of God's kingdom, that moment he became disloyal to the government of God and he made himself entirely unworthy of all the blessings wherewith God had favored him.
This was the position of the human race after man divorced himself from God by transgression. Then he was no longer entitled to a breath of air, a ray of sunshine, or a particle of food. And the reason why man was not annihilated was because God so loved him that He made the gift of His dear Son that He should suffer the penalty of his transgression. Christ proposed to become man's surety and substitute, that man, through matchless grace, should have another trial--a second probation--having the experience of Adam and Eve as a warning not to transgress God's law as they did. And inasmuch as man enjoys the blessings of God in the gift of the sunshine and the gift of food, there must be on the part of man a bowing before God in thankful acknowledgment that all things come of God. Whatever is rendered back to Him is only His
own who has given it.
Man broke God's law, and through the Redeemer new and fresh promises were made on a different basis. All blessings must come through a Mediator. Now every member of the human family is given wholly into the hands of Christ, and whatever we possess--whether it is the gift of money, of houses, of lands, of reasoning powers, of physical strength, of intellectual talents--in this present life, and the blessings of the future life, are placed in our possession as God's treasures to be faithfully expended for the benefit of man. Every gift is stamped with the cross and bears the image and superscription of Jesus Christ. All things come of God. From the smallest benefits up to the largest blessing, all flow through the one Channel--a superhuman mediation sprinkled with the blood that is of value beyond estimate because it was the life of God in His Son.
(FW 21, 22)
The following quote brings out that Christ saved the world:
quote:
The deceiver presented himself as an angel of light, but Christ withstood his temptations. He redeemed Adam's disgraceful fall, and saved the world. (God's Amazing Grace 42)
So there is a sense that the gift of salvation is not simply offered, but given to all. Thus Christ is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe (1 Tim. 4:10). He is the Savior of all in that all have physical life because of His salvific work, and especially the Savior of those who believe because for them that work is effective for eternal life. If anyone is lost, it will because they have despised that which was given to them.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/10/05 02:24 AM
Still, the point remains that no one has adequately explained why Scripture says
her husband with her.
Also a little phobic about the genitals thing, eh? This discussion is about whether or not Adam was with Eve at the tree, not about embarassment
or about salvation, either. Let's be fair all around.
========
Formatting correction only - Daryl
![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
[ January 09, 2005, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/10/05 02:39 AM
Thanks, Daryl
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/10/05 02:47 AM
Her husband with her when looked at in the light of the whole passage clearly implies her husband with her in the Garden of Eden.
If you were Adam standing there with Eve while the devil was in the act of deceiving Eve through the medium of the serpent, would you have stood still by like a frozen mute statue, and thus in so doing consented to her being deceived by the devil?
And then later on in the passage, would Eve have said that the serpent beguiled her, if Adam had been there with her?
Wouldn't she have said that the serpent beguiled them instead of just her?
Also, if Adam had been there with Eve, wouldn't he also have blamed the serpent as Eve had done instead of blaming Eve?
That is why it is important to look at the whole passage rather then at one verse, or even a few words in one verse.
Posted By: Charlene Van Hook
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/10/05 06:07 AM
The gift of salvation is [1] imputed to all.....[placed in thier account]. However, not all will believe/recieve/choose the gift and allow God to [2] impart the gift to them.
1] is Justification
2] is Santctifation, a fitness for Eternity.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/17/05 07:47 AM
I have been told that we have not adequately answered Cedric's question.
Have you ever heard the question as to whether or not so and so was still with so and so?
If some body asked me if my wife was still with me, and I answered yea, would that person be asking me where she was as he didn't see her there with me?I think not.
The same is true of Genesis 3:6.....
quote:
Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
EGW in the book, Patriach & Prophets, clearly testifies to this.
Can anybody answer Cedric's question more adequately than we have already done? If so, please jump in and do so.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/16/05 08:36 PM
Is it possible that before the fall male and female were created equal. (Gen. 2:24 "They will become one flesh") In fact, the woman was made from the man. Therefore, it would make no difference if the serpent addressed the woman or the man; they were equal. Nor would it make a difference who responded. Neither one had dominance over the other.
The concept of male domination was introduced after the fall (Gen. 3:16) and as a consequence. Therefore, Eve could interact with the serpent in her own right, as an equal. Adam had no need to respond; he was not being addressed.
In chapter 3, God calls "to the man" when He was walking in the garden in the cool of the day. This would seem at first glance to indicate pre-existing male dominance. But this may not necessarily be the case. Two other lines of reasoning are possible:
1. God, as Creator, addresses his first creation, the man.
2. More likely, however, is that the term "adam" refers to "humanity" and not "Adam", the man specifically. This is supported by:
a) Strong's Concordance (check the Strongs Number for "Adam" in Genesis; it may refer to an individual or the species)
b) Genesis 3:21-24. Although the text mentions only "the man" it is clear that both the man and the woman were expelled from the garden.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/16/05 09:12 PM
Interesting point, however, let's read the following Bible text:
quote:
Genesis 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
What does an help meet for him mean?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/16/05 10:27 PM
This is a very important question.
From Strong's Concordance, the word translated "help meet" in the KJV comes from the Hebrew "ezer" (as in Eleazar - El "god" is my azar "helper") meaning "aid" or "helper".
From the SDA Bible Commentary, commenting on Genesis 2:18 (Vol. 1, p. 225) "Appropriate, that is, to his needs; to cpmplement him.
From the Hebrew/Greek Interlinear(Hendrickson, 1985) "And said Jehovah God, not it is good being of the man alone; I will make for him a helper corresponding to him."
To my reading, none of these commentaries specifically implies an inferior status for the woman. Nor does it rule it out.
However, inferior status is specifically stated as a consequence of the fall.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/17/05 12:04 AM
Cedric,
You are correct in that no inferior status existed prior to the Fall, however, a functional working relationship in regards to submissiveness existed between Adam and Eve before the Fall, as it existed and still exists between the Godhead who are equal to one another.
Though equal, for example, the Son was submissive to the Father in their functional relationship.
Though equal, Eve was submissive to Adam as Adam's helpmate.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/17/05 12:54 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
...a functional working relationship in regards to submissiveness existed between Adam and Eve before the Fall...Though equal, Eve was submissive to Adam as Adam's helpmate.
On this point we may diverge, and evidence must be offered to support this point of view.
"Equal" and "submissive" are opposites. An equal does not submit.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/17/05 06:04 AM
But equals do have their
respective role functions such as the role of the Son to the Father, etc.
Perhaps
role functions are the better words.
I will check out the equal and the submissive aspect when I have more time.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/19/05 02:10 AM
From Gen. 3:6 alone, (and remember; the Bible is the final authority in all spiritual matters for the Christian) it is clear that Adam was there with Eve. "her husband with her" doesn't mean that he was in another part of the garden. If Ellen White had never spoken of Eve wandering away from her husband, no one would have ever come to that conclusion.
Read "Seventh-day Adventists Believe..." page 227 for an explanation of the relation between the Bible and Ellen White's writings.
Let us not twist the Scriptures to agree with Ellen White! The Bible is always first in authority.
Posted By: John H.
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/19/05 04:52 AM
Bill, nobody's twisting anything. The phrase "her husband with her" is not to be used to overturn all of the other Bible evidence given here.
Genesis 3:6 says, "she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." All that means is that Adam was with Eve when she gave him of the fruit to eat it; which is obvious. She couldn't give him the fruit if he wasn't with her at the moment she gave it to him. But that by no means indicates that he was with her at the tree. Bible scholars who have never heard of Ellen White, and who lived centuries before she ever was born, have agreed on that.
By the way, it's not possible to "twist the Scriptures to agree with Ellen White." The Holy Spirit gave both sets of writings, and He doesn't contradict Himself. If anyone twists the Scriptures, they will then contradict Ellen White.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/19/05 06:48 AM
Actually, there are some who do think things are being twisted.
quote:
Originally posted by John:
Bible scholars who have never heard of Ellen White, and who lived centuries before she ever was born, have agreed on that.
This may be the case; if so, please cite references indicating who these Bible scholars are and just what they say about this passage.
quote:
By the way, it's not possible to "twist the Scriptures to agree with Ellen White." The Holy Spirit gave both sets of writings, and He doesn't contradict Himself. If anyone twists the Scriptures, they will then contradict Ellen White.
I believe this is a whole 'nuther thread.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/20/05 07:29 AM
Matthew Henry Commentary on Genesis 3:6
II. The steps of the transgression, not steps upward, but downward towards the pit--steps that take hold on hell....
4.
She gave also to her husband with her. It is probable that he was not with her when she was tempted (surely, if he had, he would have interposed to prevent the sin), but came to her when she had eaten, and was prevailed upon by her to eat likewise; for it is easier to learn that which is bad than to teach that which is good.
http://studylight.org/com/mhc-com/view.cgi?book=ge&chapter=3&verse=6#Ge3_6John Wesley Commentary on Genesis 3:6
She gave also to her husband with her - 'Tis likely he was not with her when she was tempted; surely if he had, he would have interposed to prevent the sin; but he came to her when she had eaten, and was prevailed with by her to eat likewise.
http://studylight.org/com/wen/view.cgi?book=ge&chapter=3&verse=6#Ge3_6
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/19/05 08:03 PM
Now that we have what a couple of Bible scholars have written with links provided, what thinkest thou now?
They clearly feel that the Bible clearly implies that Adam wasn't with Eve during the conversation between the serpent and Eve.
Also note that they came to their conclusions without any reference to what EGW wrote about it.
Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/19/05 09:28 PM
In reading this discussion, the one question that keep coming back to me is, "Why?" Why is this point of any particular importance? Why is it important to know if Adam was right by Eve's side at the tree or somewhere else in the garden? Does it make any difference in how we view the origins of sin? Does it make any difference in terms of the plan of salvation?
Tom
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/19/05 10:21 PM
Can we say that anything in the Bible is not important?
Even the slightest thing can affect our understanding of the fall of Adam and the Plan of Salvation.
I understand that it wasn't until Adam also sinned that the fall of the human race was complete, therefore, the manner in which he sinned is of the greatest importance.
1 - If he had been there with Eve, then was he also deceived by the serpent as Eve was and ate the forbidden fruit at the same time as Eve?
2 - If he were not there with Eve, then was he then deceived by Eve herself and ate the forbidden fruit later?
3 - Or, in both scenarios, did he knowingly sin by eating the forbidden fruit then or later? If he knowingly ate it, then why did he knowingly eat it?
4 - Who had the greater sin, the one who was deceived into sinning, or the one who knowingly sinned?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/19/05 10:38 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
Now that we have what a couple of Bible scholars have written with links provided, what thinkest thou now?
You may also add John Calvin to that list.
This by no means settles the question, but does add weight to the postition that Adam was not in the immediate vicinity at the time of the crime.
(Just as an aside, the above mentioned authorities have been cited (and justly so) to support the position put forward. Are "we" (generically speaking) just as willing to take their position on which day of the week to worship on?)
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/19/05 10:56 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Wetmore:
"Why?"
I'm a woodworker. I can go into the forest, cut down a tree, lopp off a log, call it a chair and sit on it. I can also mill the tree into lumber, and build a chair with legs and a back. Fancier, and costs more, but I still sit on it. Or I can mill the lumber into a very complex, French-provincial chair with cabriole legs and carved lion's paw feet. (Well, actually I can't. But some people do. ) I still just sit on it.
But every time I work wood, I learn something about it. The more attention I pay to detail, the better my product is. And with every project, I strive for greater precision, greater accuracy, and a better job.
On the other hand, not everybody cares about building chairs.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/20/05 03:56 AM
Cedric,
You would be surprised the number of Bible Scholars who also agree with the Sabbath over the Sunday issue, but then that's another topic that I might very well create elsewhere.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/20/05 04:08 AM
quote:
Are "we" (generically speaking) just as willing to take their position on which day of the week to worship on?
No comparison. There is nothing ambiguous or uncertain about the fourth commandment. Tom asks a valid question. I think it is important because of what Paul wrote about it. We need to be able to vindicate his position. Adam chose to die with Eve. He didn't rebel against God in the same way Satan did, thus he was offered probation, which has been extended to the entire human race.
But what if Adam hadn't eaten the forbidden fruit? Or, what if he had shaken his fist at God, and in an angry, hateful fit of rage, gobbled down a bushel of them? What then? As I see it, how and why he ate it is useful information. And where he ate it provides helpful clues.
Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/20/05 08:25 PM
Daryl,
I am not sure you understand my question. I am not implying that this detail of the story is unimportant or that anything in Scripture is unimportant. But things do have different levels of importance and for different reasons.
I ask the question to try to see why you think this is an important point of the story. Given the clear implication of the phrase "with her" I wonder why the two 17th and 18th century Biblical commentators seemed to feel a need to qualify this detail to suggest that Adam was not "with her" at the time and place of the events described. (Notice that Wesley uses exactly the same words as Henry.) Why does EGW pick up this detail that is very consistent with long held tradition within the church predating these two reformers.
Why is it important to distinguish the actions of Eve from those of Adam? How does it effect our undertanding of the origins of sin, salvation, mankind, and our relationship to one another and to God. Does it really make an essential difference on any of these points?
Tom
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/20/05 09:42 PM
Tom,
Perhaps, answering my questions in that post will also answer your's?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/22/05 03:47 AM
Mike:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
No comparison. There is nothing ambiguous or uncertain about the fourth commandment.
It's not an issue of comparison. (Which makes me wonder if you are even aware of the arguement for Sunday worship.)
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/22/05 04:17 AM
![[Caution]](graemlins/caution.gif)
This topic is
NOT about the Sabbath, therefore, any future posts about the Sabbath in this topic will be removed.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/22/05 04:23 AM
Well spoken. Let's be fair all around.
(If you do move them, please put them somewhere where I can participate.
)
Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/22/05 07:22 AM
Well Daryl, I don't see that answering your questions really answer mine. But let me give it a try. In the end I still have the same question for you.
"1 - If he had been there with Eve, then was he also deceived by the serpent as Eve was and ate the forbidden fruit at the same time as Eve?"
I would think so. But how does that make a difference? Would Adam's sin have had any different consequences had he been "deceived" while standing beside her at the tree as compared to being deceived by Eve's retelling what the serpent said to her?
"2 - If he were not there with Eve, then was he then deceived by Eve herself and ate the forbidden fruit later?"
It seems to me that there was an element of being deceived that both Adam and Eve experienced regardless of whether what the serpent said was heard firsthand or retold by Eve to Adam.
"3 - Or, in both scenarios, did he knowingly sin by eating the forbidden fruit then or later? If he knowingly ate it, then why did he knowingly eat it?"
I would say that both Adam and Eve knowingly ate the fruit. They both were quite aware of which tree God had indicated and both knowingly ate the fruit God had forbidden that they should eat. Read carefully Eve's answer to the serpent as it is clear that she correctly understood God's command about the fruit. Why did he knowingly eat it? The Genesis narrative suggests that he ate it for the same reason that Eve did.
"4 - Who had the greater sin, the one who was deceived into sinning, or the one who knowingly sinned?"
I think that this is an unnecessary distinction with regard to the story of Adam and Eve. They both sinned. They both chose to deliberately disobey God's instruction, which they both understood. They both fell for the deception of the serpent that they would not die.
The other part of the deception was that the serpent cleverly suggesting that something new and wonderful would be revealed to them, something only God knew, that their eyes would be opened. Well, in fact that part of the decpetion had an element of truth to it. Their eyes were opened and they saw themselves as naked.
An interesting play on word occurs here in the original Hebrew. The Hebrew word to describe the serpent as "clever" or "subtle" is very similar, only with a slightly different vowel sound, to the Hebrew word for "naked". And in fact, both words come from the same root word. The word describing the serpent has a connotation of "to uncover" or "to reveal" something hidden.
It occurred to me that the origin of sin started with a counterfeit revelation by an imposter. And the solution ends with the opening line of the book of Revelation, "This is the revelation of Jesus Christ..." The truth of Jesus the Messiah revealed for all to see.
Tom
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/22/05 08:15 PM
Tom, apparently Adam and Eve did not rebel in the same sense Lucifer rebelled in heaven. (1) In what way do you think they differed? (2) Why did they accept the plan of salvation? (3) Why did Lucifer reject God's offer to restore him to his former position? (4) What did Paul mean when he wrote that Adam was not deceived? (5) Why did Sister White say Adam was not with Eve when she ate the forbidden? (6) Why did she say he ate it because he unwisely resolved to die with Eve? (7) Why was God willing to replace Eve and allow Adam to live forever if he hadn't eaten it?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/22/05 10:23 PM
Interesting discussion....
Let me add a new twist to it.
The Bible does not specifically state that Eve was standing at the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil when she was tempted by the serpent.
With this said, let us explore another scenario.
Eve is somewhere in the Garden, alone, when she encounters the serpent who then proceeds to tempt her to eat of the fruit of the ToKoG&E. She thinks about this over time and one day when she and Adam are walking by the ToKoG&E, she succumbs to the temptation and takes of the fruit and eats it. She then takes some of the fruit and gives it to Adam, "who was with her" and he also eats it.
I would venture to say that this does not contradict what is presented in the Bible and provides an explanation of Darryl's original question concerning the "who was with her" dilemna.
Bob D
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/23/05 09:56 PM
The problem with that scenario is that it requires us to totally reject the SOP, which plainly says (1) Satan could not approach our first parents anywhere else other than at the forbidden tree, and that (2) Eve was at the tree when she dialogued with Satan, and that (3) she ate the fruit then and there (not later on somewhere else), and that (4) she brought some of it to Adam who ate it.
But I agre with you that it is not as obvious in the Genesis account that she ate it at the tree, then and there, the moment she was tempted.
Posted By: myarsman
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/24/05 02:12 AM
John,
You should also agree that the premise that Eve was tempted at the ToKoG&E did not originate with the SOP. Almost all Biblical Scholars/Interpretors have supported that position. SOP was more or less parroting that premise.
Bob D
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/24/05 05:52 AM
.... and now you're neglecting what someone else posted about the SOP.
Posted By: myarsman
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/24/05 06:38 AM
I always find it somewhat curious that any topic of discussion on this forum usually comes down to one thing......the validity of the SOP perspective on any issue.
It would appear that the Bible is far to complicated for we finite humans to understand without the assistance of others?
I read the Biblical story of the fall of man and I see these very clear points....
1. According to the Biblical record, Eve was deceived by the serpent into believing that it was possible to be "like God" by eating of the fruit of the ToKoG&E. (The initial temptation did not neccessarily take place at the tree, as has been commonly intepreted).
2. According to the Biblical record, Adam was with Eve when she picked/ate of the forbidden fruit.
I do not agree with your position concerning the SOP, which presents a different picture than what has been shown in the Biblical account, but I can rest assured that my understanding of this Biblical record is correct.
Please note: I have become reliant upon the SOT (Source of Truth) for my understanding of what is written in the Bible.
Bob D
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/25/05 07:04 AM
First, if SOT means Spirit of Truth, then I sincerely believe that the SOP comes directly from the SOT, therefore, I accept that over the interpretation of any other non-biblical sources, within or without the SDA Church. Note that I said non-biblical sources, not biblical sources.
The Bible clearly and strongly suggests that Adam wasn't with Eve at the TOKOG&E for the following reasons:
1 - The conversation was only between the devil, through the medium of the serpent, and Eve.
2 - If Adam had also been present, he would have also been included in the conversation.
3 - As Adam wasn't there, Adam blamed Eve, not the serpent, but Eve, being there, blamed the serpent, but not Adam.
The SOP clearly upholds this, which I believe is in line with what the Bible implies.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/25/05 07:49 AM
Bob, this is a Seventh-day Adventist forum. Does it really surprise you that we believe the SOP is an authoritative source of inspiration?
Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/24/05 11:06 PM
Daryl,
quote:
The Bible clearly and strongly suggests that Adam wasn't with Eve at the TOKOG&E for the following reasons:
What could be more clear and strong than the simple and direct statement than "her husband with her? No "suggestion" involved in a direct statement that follows immediately in context in the very same sentence the statement that she saw the fruit, took it and ate it. The explanation that "with her" designated with her in the garden seems to be a quite unncessary fact to point out. Where else than in the garden would either of them have been? The only context of the whole story was within the garden. Why would it have been necessary for Moses to emphasize that obvious fact when there was nowhere else he would have been? The fact of this discussion demonstrates that it is not the Bible which creates this lack of clarity, but other extra-Biblical sources.
quote:
1 - The conversation was only between the devil, through the medium of the serpent, and Eve.
That is correct. The conversation as recorded in Scripture only has the Serpent and Eve speaking. But that simply does not lead logically to your next point of conclusion.
quote:
2 - If Adam had also been present, he would have also been included in the conversation.
I would say that the phrase "with her" which immediately follows the conversation does imply that if the conversation and the taking the fruit occurred at the same time, he was included as a listener to the conversation. But why do you think he would have been there and included in the conversation only if he spoke up? Is it possible that he simply stood by mesmorized by a talking serpent and said nothing? Is it possible that he was afraid to speak up at that point? Have you and your wife ever been together where she spoke to others and you just listened without speaking? Being there does not require a speaking part. There are numerous stories in Scripture where multiple people are clearly present but not everyone speaks.
quote:
3 - As Adam wasn't there, Adam blamed Eve, not the serpent, but Eve, being there, blamed the serpent, but not Adam.
This really establishes nothing of substance. Have you never had occasion to discpline children, or adults for that matter, where both were fully engage in the misbehaviour and their immediate response is to start pointing the finger at one another to blame the other? That is fundamental human nature to not accept responsibility for ones own actions and try to pass the buck. It really has nothing to do with who was actually there or who was actually involved. But more to the point of what you were trying to make, don't you think that if the issue was Adam's negligence in keeping track of Eve, he would have said, "She wandered away" or "She has a mind of her own and just won't stay close to me"? Or that Eve would have said, "It's Adam's fault, he didn't keep track of me as he was supposed to do" or "Adam just was too busy doing his own thing and wasn't paying enough attention to me and let me wander away by myself"? If we are going to speculate about an explanation, why not go that direction?
Tom
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/24/05 11:44 PM
Tom W. asked, "Is it possible that he simply stood by mesmorized by a talking serpent and said nothing?"
Adam was mesmorized and Eve wasn't? Isn't that far fetched speculation?
If Adam were there and sensed that his wife was in any kind of danger or deception by something that they never experienced before, and at the TOKOG&E at that, which God uttered a very clear warning against eating any of that fruit (See Genesis 2:16,17 below), and he saw that the serpent's conversation was geared towards trying to get Eve to eat some of it (See Genesis 3:1-5 below), would he be mesmorized into stunned silence over it, or would he sound out a warning to his wife and then flee with her from that forbidden tree?Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Let's ask that same question a different way:
If you were there and sensed that your wife was in any kind of danger or deception by something that you never experienced before, and at the TOKOG&E at that, which God uttered a very clear warning against eating any of that fruit (See Genesis 2:16,17 below), and you saw that the serpent's conversation was geared towards trying to get your wife to eat some of it, would you be mesmorized into stunned silence over it, or would you sound out a warning to your wife and then flee with her from that forbidden tree?
Posted By: myarsman
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/25/05 02:40 AM
Mike,
Thanks for reminding me that this is an SDA forum and that all points presented will be biased towards the perspective presented in the SOP.
Now answer me this......
Lets suppose that I have never heard of the SOP and that I have just read the account of the "Fall of Man" in Genesis for the first time.
After reading these passages I come to the following conclusions.....
1. Eve was tempted by the serpent to eat the Fruit of the ToKoG&E, but she was "not" present at the tree when she was tempted.
2. One day when she and Adam are together and are standing at the ToKoG&E, she takes some of the fruit and eats it and then gives some of the fruit to Adam, who also eats it.
Would these conclusions be a contradiction/conflict from what is presented in the Bible?
If these conclusions are not a contradiction of what is presented in the Bible, then why would I wish to accept an alternative explanation of these events which can not be cooborated by Scripture?
Bob D
Posted By: myarsman
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/25/05 02:48 AM
Daryl,
I think that Tom adequately responded to your reply to my post.
I can only add one thing and that is
Genesis 3:6 clearly states that Adam was with Eve when she ate of the fruit from the ToKoG&E.
I would be very hesitant to present/support an alternative explanation to this passage. I take the warning given in Revelation 22:18,19 very seriously. I believe that this warning can be applied to all Scripture.
Bob D
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/25/05 04:35 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Bob, this is a Seventh-day Adventist forum. Does it really surprise you that we believe the SOP is an authoritative source of inspiration?
That being said, Mike, there remains a large number of dedicated, sincere, believing Adventists who accept Scripture as their sole source of inspired writ. Reading between the lines that says they do not accept EGW as inspired.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/25/05 05:42 AM
I draw everybody's attention to Fundamental Belief #17 of the Seventh-day Adventist Church:
quote:
17. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and
authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)
Our forum rules expects everyone here to respect this and any other fundamental belief of the SDA Church.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/25/05 06:05 AM
We know what it says, Daryl, we just don't agree. And Disagreeing is not necessarily being disrespectful. I completely respect your right to your belief system, whatever it is.
With all due respect, this is another topic (which I would love to explore) and we should really abandon this diversion or repost it elsewhere.
Posted By: myarsman
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/25/05 06:08 AM
Daryl,
I point your attention to the last sentence of Fundamental Belief #7....
" ........They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested."
Can you with all honesty state that the SOP is in total agreement with the depiction of the Fall of Man as it is presented in Genesis 3?
i.e. The Biblical account states that Adam was with Eve when she ate the fruit.....The SOP states that Eve was alone.
Bob D
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/25/05 06:21 AM
We should stick to the topic...
Posted By: myarsman
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/25/05 06:45 AM
Cedric,
This is totally in harmony with the topic of discussion. Daryl has introduced this topic concerning the phrase "who was with her" in Genesis 3:6. I do not know what his intentions were in doing this because there are two clearly defined lines that are evident within this discussion....Those who accept the SOP perspective and those who take the Bible for what it has clearly stated.
Going on past experience, I do not see any participants in this discussion crossing the line to the other side.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/25/05 08:09 AM
Your call, Daryl.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/25/05 05:10 PM
Any future and deemed to be disrespectful posts against this particular fundamental belief of the SDA Church will be
deleted.If this topic is to be continued in this or any other public forum of MSDAOL, what I have posted above
must be followed.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/25/05 05:14 PM
Getting back to the topic.
As already posted in this topic, there are more than the writings of EGW that accepts what the text strongly and clearly implies.
I don't see anybody posting against what those Bible scholars have said.
Posted By: Will
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/25/05 06:32 PM
Some scholars say that Adam was in the vicinity.
An example is that I was with my wife at the grocery store, but she was in the produce section and I was looking at soups. I was with her, but I was not at the produce section.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/25/05 08:17 PM
Daryl,
You said, "Adam was mesmorized and Eve wasn't? Isn't that far fetched speculation?"
It is no more far-fetched speculation than to suggest anything else not found in the Scriptural record. Stop and think about it. What would your reaction be if you encountered any talking animal? Have you never been dumb-struck with amazement or surprised over something? Have you never been rendered speechless with fright? Have you never been in a situation where your wife responded more quickly than you to an emergency or in answer to a question or acted more quickly on anything?
What your whole answer appears to assume is that Eve was morally weaker and subordinate, if not somewhat inferior, to Adam and less able to resist temptation, that they were somehow not really equals in the garden. It seems to assume that Eve needed Adam to keep her out of trouble rather than they needed each other and needed to stick together as equal members of a married unit. It also appears to assume that Adam would not have been as easily beguiled by a talking serpent and that Eve was inherently more gullible or less able to understand the instruction given to them by God. It also seems to assume that if Adam had been confronted by the serpent that he would have responded differently than Eve. Look at her answer to the serpent. Does it reflect an inferior understanding of God's command?
Regarding EGW's account of the story, as Mike has already pointed out, the idea that Adam and Eve were not together at the tree is not an original thought of EGW. Mike has identified two Bible commentators one of whom predated her by at least 200 years, the other by at least 100 years, who expressed the very same idea. Milton's "Paradise Lost" published in 1667 elaborates on the plot of Satan to find Eve alone in order to tempt her. This is in fact a very old idea, the origin of which I do not know. Manuscripts dating from as early as the 3rd to 7th Centuries suggest that Adam and Eve were separated in the garden and that Eve was alone at the temptation. At least one painting from the early 15th Century shows Eve alone at the tree, although most religious art from the middle ages and Renaissance depicts Adam and Eve together. Even the idea that the serpent was a winged creature is not original to EGW. A very early Middle Ages painting clearly depicts the creature as having wings. (Strangely, some very early religious art depicted the serpent to have a distinctly female head and body.)
I think we also need to carefully consider the nature of this bit of information that EGW includes in her commentary on the Fall. If this were new information not found elsewhere that added detail to the story without contradicting Scripture, I think one should accept that it was special insight given to EGW. But when it is clear that this was not an original idea from EGW, one must be open to the possibility of her reliance on other sources informing her inspiration. And when it in fact contradicts a point of Scripture we must side with Scripture.
So my question would be, could EGW's "inspiration" for her account of the fall have been informed by the available literature of her day and long held church tradition? We are very much aware that she read widely and had a significant personal library and sent her assistants out to do research for some of her writings. Her own reading and experience undoubtedly were reflected in her writing.
And let's be perfectly clear here, to raise a question about EGW or to identify discrepancies in her writings is not a rejection of the SOP. But as has already been pointed out "the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested." If any authority in the Church, including EGW, differs from Scripture, I for one am not at all troubled to disregard that extra-Biblical source to the extent that there it differs from Scripture. In fact, to accept the word of anyone, including EGW, over that of Scripture is to risk rejecting Scripture as the one sure foundation of my faith in favor of that other source. This is in no way disrespectful of EGW. In fact, her very own words confirmed that this is what we are to do with all of her writings. Test them by Scripture. She was not infallible, which means she could and did make mistakes. But I am troubled that some seem to be more comfortable with questioning Scripture than they do with questioning EGW.
My questions still remain unanswered, Daryl. Why is it so important to you to place Eve alone at the tree? Why do you suppose that the early church fathers felt a need to draw this distinction between Adam and Eve, even perhaps back as far as the 3rd Century?
Tom
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/26/05 12:43 AM
Bob, I agree that the Scripture account of the Fall is not as clear as Sister White’s account. Personally, I believe there is enough wiggle room to interpret it he way. I see no blatant contradiction. However, I also agree with Tom Wetmore that one does not have to categorically reject the SOP in order to disagree with her account of the Fall.
The apostle Paul provides the following insight regarding the Fall:
1 Timothy
2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
It may be tempting to assume Paul was sexist, but this would be an unfortunate, not to mention untrue, assumption. Whatever else this particular commentary means one thing is certain – Adam was not deceived. This seems to imply he wasn't with Eve when she was deceived, or when she made the decision to eat the forbidden fruit. So, the question might be asked - Why did Adam eat the forbidden fruit? When and where he ate it is probably not as important.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/26/05 01:23 AM
This type of discussion about EGW in reference to this topic is permissible, however, blanket statements against her writings are totally unacceptable.
1 Timothy 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
The Bible in this text clearly states that Adam was not deceived.
Why, then, if Adam was there with Eve, who was obviously being deceived, then why didn't he warn her of this deception?Also, are there any other Bible references that will shed more light on this topic?
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/26/05 01:55 AM
I think it is time to look for and post some quotes from EGW's writings on this topic:
I have been shown the great love and condescension of God in giving His Son to die that man might find pardon and live. I was shown Adam and Eve, who were privileged to behold the beauty and loveliness of the Garden of Eden and were permitted to eat of all the trees in the garden except one. But the serpent tempted Eve, and she tempted her husband, and they both ate of the forbidden tree. They broke God's command, and became sinners. The news spread through heaven, and every harp was hushed. The angels sorrowed, and feared lest Adam and Eve would again put forth the hand and eat of the tree of life and be immortal sinners. But God said that He would drive the transgressors from the garden, and by cherubim and a flaming sword would guard the way of the tree of life, so that man could not approach unto it and eat of its fruit, which perpetuates immortality. {EW 125.2}
Satan commenced his work with Eve, to cause her to disobey. She first erred in wandering from her husband, next in lingering around the forbidden tree, and next in listening to the voice of the tempter, and even daring to doubt what God had said, "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." She thought that perhaps the Lord did not mean just what He said, and venturing, she put forth her hand, took of the fruit and ate. It was pleasing to the eye and pleasant to the taste. Then she was jealous that God had withheld from them what was really for their good, and she offered the fruit to her husband, thereby tempting him. She related to Adam all that the serpent had said and expressed her astonishment that he had the power of speech. {EW 147.2}
I saw a sadness come over Adam's countenance. He appeared afraid and astonished. A struggle seemed to be going on in his mind. He felt sure that this was the foe against whom they had been warned, and that his wife must die. They must be separated. His love for Eve was strong, and in utter discouragement he resolved to share her fate. He seized the fruit and quickly ate it. Then Satan exulted. He had rebelled in heaven, and had gained sympathizers who loved him and followed him in his rebellion. He had fallen and caused others to fall with him. And he had now tempted the woman to distrust God, to inquire into His wisdom, and to seek to penetrate His all-wise plans. Satan knew that the woman would not fall alone. Adam, through his love for Eve, disobeyed the command of God, and fell with her. {EW 148.1}
In the above quotes we have read "I have been shown.......I was shown Adam and Eve.....I saw a sadness come over Adam's countenance....."
EGW was shown. EGW saw.
These means that EGW was shown these things, that she saw these things. This clearly has gone beyond EGW's borrowing this from others.
Who showed her these things? As God's messenger, the answer is obvious.
Posted By: Larry Kirkpatrick
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/29/05 05:05 AM
There is no contradiction here between The Bible and EGW unless someone wishes to manufacture one. The simple fact is that the Hebrew of Genesis 3:6 will not support the dogmatic assertion that Adam was with Eve at the tree.
The emphasis in the Hebrew does not fall on who was with who but it rests on the point that Eve was led in her mind to "see" the fruit as good to eat. Unless there is a change from the common word order, the first verb receives emphasis. here, "see."
Her husband "with" her has reference to relationship here, not physical position. A similar preposition and similar phrase is found just a few chapters later in the story of Noah. Look at Genesis 9:9 and 9:12. There you find in 9:9 in English "and with your seed after you." The literal Hebrew is "and to his sons WITH HIM." But where are the sons? Sons upon sons upon sons are included between Noah and ourselves, for we are sons of Noah as well. Again, here "with him" here has, in context, the main idea upon relationship, not physical location.
In 9:12 you have the same thing. A simple, relatively generic personal pronoun in the Hebrew. God makes His covenant with Noah and with every living soul which is "with you." Here again with you need not mean location but more likely, carries the relational meaning. Do not doubt that examples could be easily multipled. English translation will smooth some of these out, but the underlying Hebrew would show other items in Scripture the same way.
The fact is that there is little room here to be dogmatic on the point. If anything, the text pointis to relationship with rather than location with. It so happens that God showed Mrs. White the whole event in vision and she reports what she saw. Eve was alone. The text itself gives no hint otherwise. In the text Adam is conspicuously absent in Genesis 3:1-5.
Whatever grounds one may have for doubting that the gift of prophecy was manfiest in our midst through the life and ministry of Mrs. White, this particular incident, from the standpoint of Biblical Hebrew, is less than thin ice. There is no case here in favor of Adam’s physical presence during 3:1-5 at all. Was Adam actually with Eve at the forbidden tree? The Hebrew text neither suggests nor requires it in the least. If anything, the Scripture evidence tilts the other way.
May the word not be true of us: "O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!" (Luke 24:25).
Posted By: myarsman
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/29/05 06:05 AM
Pastor Larry,
Nice try.
What your explanation is really saying is that no one can understand what the Bible means, unless they first have a grasp of the Hebrew language. (The would mean that the vast majority of Bible students don't have the foggiest idea of what the Bible says/means and are dependant upon learned Bible scholars, such as yourself, for an explanation.)
As for me, one who is not versed in the Hebrew language, I will take the Bible for what it clearly states. Adam was with Eve when she ate of the fruit of the ToKoG&E.
I have offered an explanation of how events could have transpired at the time of the Fall,(and that explanation is in no way contradictory with what the Bible says in regards to the Fall of Man) but no one is willing to entertain that perspective because it would mean that they would have to reject the SOP, which it appears most everyone on this forum has chosen to place their unwavering faith in.
I suppose that we have reached another "standoff" whereby any further discussion on this topic would be fruitless.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/29/05 07:50 AM
Yes, Bob, I think your are safe in saying so. I have no reason to take your word over the SOP. And you're right - I have absolute trust and confidence in the SOP. I'm just sorry you don't. By the way, why do you trust and have confidence in the writings of Paul? Why do you accept him and not Sister White?
Posted By: Larry Kirkpatrick
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/29/05 09:13 AM
That ("no one can understand what the Bible means, unless they first have a grasp of the Hebrew language") is not at all what I am saying. Entirely apart from Hebrew, how do you delimit "with" in this place the way you do? You see, you are throwing an assertion and insisting that we must embrace it. It doesn't work that way. You don't have to know Hebrew or any other language to check the texts I've given in chapter nine.
As for the inspiration of the Spirit of Prophecy, I too have, after careful investigation, a wholehearted confidence in it. We have Hebrew inspired writings, Greek inspired writings, and English inspired writings. Nor have I found them to conflict. I am continually amazed to see how Mrs. White, with no knowledge of the biblical languages, is so consistently in harmony with them. Coincidence? After a lifetime's barrel full of writing?
Then there is Genesis 3:12. Same preposition, same deal. Adam mentions the woman which God gave to be "with me." This is just the Hebrew preposition "im" (third masculine singular) again--same as in 3:6 (but that was "im" as third feminine singular). In any case, even if this were some oblivious duel between supposed scholarship and assertion, at least you can check scholarship. Assertion brooks no checking. If that were the choice, I would prefer scholarship.
In any case, I can see there is no interest in my adding more, so I will leave it at that. The choice between skepticism and faith comes to each of us. Shalom.
Posted By: myarsman
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/29/05 04:21 PM
Mike,
I suppose that we must again agree to disagree. BTW, I do not accept the writings of Paul as 100% inspired. He made some statements that can only be taken as personal opininion/perspective(i.e. "women should be silent in church...etc.) But that is a whole new topic, isn't it.
Pastor Larry,
I can round up a hundred different scholars and get as many different interpretations of Genesis 3:6. What does that tell you.
Keep in mind.....we have one Bible, but look at how many "different" religions have interpreted the Bible(and most of these religions have their own "scholars")so that now we have well over 1000 religions that have "gleaned" their own unique "Truths" from the Bible.
IMO, scholarship is not what it is all "cracked up to be". In fact, it appears to have created an atmosphere of "confusion" in regards to understanding the Bible.
Question: Which of the plethora of scholars has correctly interpreted Scripture?
Anyway, I feel fairly confident with my, as you call it, "assertion" that Adam was with Eve when she ate of the fruit. The Bible clearly says it and that settles it for me.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/29/05 06:10 PM
Bob, I truly do feel sorry for you. I'm sorry to say so, but I really do feel sorry for anyone who reads the writings of Paul or Ellen White, or any other inspired author, and chooses to distrust them. I'm surprised you place so much confidence in the KJV translation of the Bible, or any Bible at all. How can you be so certain the translators translated it properly? What makes you think the word "with" in Genesis 3:6 was the word Moses used?
For that matter, how do you know Moses told the truth? You see, somewhere along the way you have to place trust and confidence in the various people who made the Bible available to us, beginning with the original authors and ending with the translators. But if you set yourself up as the final authority of what and who is right and wrong, then your faith and religion is built upon an erring, fallible, uninspired creature - Self. Thanx, but no thanx.
Posted By: Larry Kirkpatrick
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/30/05 07:24 AM
I have not come here extolling any kind of infallibility in scholarship. But no matter what one thinks of scholarship one way or the other, a simple Hebrew preposition is a simple Hebrew preposition.
For the record, I also find the writings of Paul included in the Greek Scriptures to be inspired and infallible. You see, you and I myarsman are not even on the same page. So yes, we must agree to disagree.
I am a Seventh-day Adventist Christian. I accept the whole Bible as inspired and infallible, and wish to shape my life by what God has revealed through it.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/29/05 08:19 PM
Myarsman, not everyone here takes the SOP as inspired, although I do take Paul as such.
Larry, as myarsman put it, "Nice try." You are alone in your assertion that the "with" refers to a relational aspect rather than a spatial one. No commentaries support this point of view, including Calvin, Wesley, Henry, Clark, Geneva, or SDA. In fact, Thomas Constable has this to say about it:
"It is interesting to observe that when this sin is referred to throughout Scripture, it is not referred to as the sin of Eve–but rather as the sin of Adam! The phrase in verse 6, ‘with her,' seems to suggest that Adam was at Eve's side when she was tempted by Satan."
Also, after asserting "That ("no one can understand what the Bible means, unless they first have a grasp of the Hebrew language") is not at all what I am saying." you go on to wax eloquent on fine points of Hebrew such as "This is just the Hebrew preposition "im" (third masculine singular) again–bla, bla, bla..." You can't have it both ways; either you have to know the original languages or you don't. Personally, I like to know as much about the original as possible, unencumbered with so-called "new light". Not everything that disagrees with you is skepticism.
By the way, I am not a Seventh-day Adventist Christian. I am a Christian who chooses to fellowship with Seventh-day Adventists.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/29/05 08:31 PM
By the way, Thomas Constable's Commentary may be found at this link:
http://www.soniclight.com/constable/notes.htm
Posted By: myarsman
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/29/05 08:58 PM
Mike,
Thank you for your concern, but your sympathy is sorely misplaced. I never said that I distrusted the writings of Paul, Moses or any other author of spiritual content.
I said that there are parts of their writings that I cannot not accept as "spiritually inspired".
How is that possible you may ask?
Well, I have learned to depend upon the Holy Spirit for guidance as I read the writings of these authors. The Holy Spirit instructs me as to what is "Spiritual Truth" and what is "personal perspective".
It is a great advantage to have the guidance of the Holy Spirit in this regard......as I am certain you can attest to.
Thru the 40+ years that I have lived on this earth I have witnessed numerous ruinations that have taken place as a result of people putting their faith in some scholar or prophet or messenger who have claimed to have the Truth from God. I have watched as the people have chosen to follow these individuals to their doom.
I do not what that kind of experience, so I have chosen to go directly to the "Source of Truth" in order to gain understanding of Truth.
It has made all the difference in the world.
So as I have said before.....Adam was with Eve when she ate of the fruit....The Bible is very clear on this point.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/29/05 09:51 PM
Bob D,
So you distinctly say that you know the voice of the Holy Spirit.
I distinctly believe that EGW knew the voice of the Holy Spirit who spoke to her very clearly and in ways that very few others experience.
If I were to choose between you and her in relation to the voice of the Holy Spirit, I would have to choose her over you, but then that is another topic.
To keep this on topic, I will end this post by saying that I take what the Holy Spirit told EGW in relation to the fact that Adam was not with Eve over what you say the Holy Spirit told you. The last EGW quotes I posted clearly stated that EGW was shown, that EGW saw. She was shown this and saw this in vision straight from the Holy Spirit.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/29/05 10:33 PM
IMO, there is an unfortunate tendency in Adventism to use EGW as the definitive answer to all questions. This has the regretable spin-off of stifling meaningful discussion, intellectual dialoge and Spritual growth. (Not to mention resorting to tactics such as the gag order imposed earlier.)
Posted By: myarsman
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/30/05 12:09 AM
Daryl,
You seemed to have missed the point that I was attempting to make.
Yes, I do rely upon the direct influence of the Holy Spirit in order to understand the Truth in regards to this current topic of discussion.
Don't you?
Posted By: John H.
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/30/05 01:54 AM
Cedric opined,
quote:
IMO, there is an unfortunate tendency in Adventism to use EGW as the definitive answer to all questions.
Um, she was inspired by God, in the same way as the Bible writers. What the Holy Spirit says is the definitive answer to all questions, yes. Whether He speaks through the Bible writers or through Sister White. It's the same Holy Spirit speaking, and He doesn't contradict Himself.
Posted By: John H.
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/30/05 01:58 AM
myarsman wrote,
quote:
Yes, I do rely upon the direct influence of the Holy Spirit in order to understand the Truth in regards to this current topic of discussion.
Sorry Bob, but that statement appears questionable at best. The Holy Spirit would never lead a person to question, or downplay the inspiration of, Ellen White's ministry or her writings; as you've done on more than one occasion on this forum.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/30/05 02:13 AM
John opined:
quote:
Um, she was inspired by God,
I don't personally subscribe to that line of thinking, and nothing anyone has thus far written has caused me to re-examin my conclusions. (I don't actually expect anyone to cross swords on this turf, as it appears to be strictly sacred ground.)
Therefor, if anyone I seeking to influence my belief system regarding any point of doctrine, or discuss theology in any meaningful way, a variety of sources and scholarly opinions must be employed in addition to Scripture and "SOP".
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/30/05 02:21 AM
But we can leave off with this line of reasoning, and return to the topic at hand. Just bear in mind that certain writings that may authoritatively answer a question for you are not held in the same esteem by me. Therefore we must find a source of authority we can both agree on.
Also, don't go on about this being an SDA forum therefor you must bla, bla, bla... If this website and this forum is open to the public, and parts of it are, the burden in on you, the conservative SDA forum member and believer in EGW, to convince the unconvinced, Adventist or Gentile, of the validity of the authorities you bring forward.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 01/31/05 08:07 PM
Once again, the Bible says Adam was with Eve in the Garden, but it doesn't say they were together when Satan deceived Eve. Paul makes it clear Adam was not deceived, therefore, it is obvious to me that Adam was not present when Eve ate the fruit. Since he wasn't deceived he obviously ate the fruit intending to share her fate. It makes perfect sense to me. But I realize it doesn't make sense to everybody. Oh well.
People who "rely" on the Spirit to guide them, to help them sift through the "uninspired" stuff in the Bible, or the SOP, make me nervous. I cannot believe God would require us to believe His word and then expect us to follow the Spirit instead. In situations where the Bible doesn't provide clear guidance I, too, trust in the Spirit to lead me. But when it comes to facts and figures I believe the Bible and the SOP are the sole source of inspiration.
Posted By: myarsman
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 02/01/05 04:13 AM
Mike,
As posted earlier.....
The Bible does not state that Eve was at the ToKoG&E when she was tempted by the serpent.
Since the Bible does state that Adam was with Eve when she ate of the fruit, the logical conclusion is that she did not eat of the fruit when she was initially tempted, but that she waited until the time that she was "with" Adam to yield to the temptation.
Yes, she was deceived, but again, that does not mean that she immediatedly yielded to the temptation to eat of the fruit.
(One small point.....We men have a hard time accepting the possibility that Adam was present when Eve ate of the fruit, because we like to think that Adam would have attempted to intervene and prevent Eve from sinning.....like any strong masculine male would. We have a difficult time accepting the possibility that perhaps Eve had exerted her will upon Adam and had perhaps told him to hold his peace while she spoke with the serpent and then yielded to temptation. Keep this in mind....When God cursed Eve he stated that she would be "subject to her husband". Perhaps He did this because of her "strong-willed" attitude at the ToKoG&E.....Anyway, that is just a thought...)
I understand that you accept the SOP as being fully inspired of God and I feel that it is fruitless to continue debating that issue. I think that you are very much aware of what I believe in this regards.
One last thing.......
Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to all who would choose to follow Him. The NT is filled with examples of how the Holy Spirit influenced the lives of the Early Christian Believers.....and not just the apostles.
The work of the Holy Spirit is to "lead us into all Truth". The Holy Spirit that influences my life has lead me to believe that "Adam was with Eve" when she ate of the fruit. Of course, this is in conflict with the account presented in the SOP, but that is not an issue with me, as it is with those who still place their trust in the authenticity of the SOP.
This is the quandary that you and others are faced with....You are convinced of the validity of the SOP, even when there appears to be a conflict with what is clearly presented in the Bible. Fortunately, I am not faced with that quandary.
What it comes down to is this....
We will each have to come to terms with this individually. The discussion on this forum has resolved nothing.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 02/01/05 06:24 PM
Bob, your view is based on what you call "logical conclusions", and my view is based on what I call "inspired insights". You are comfortable believing your unique way, and I am comfortable believing the way that is generally accepted. Herein we disagree. Thanx for the input. I enjoy learning what others believe.
Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 02/03/05 02:27 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Larry Kirkpatrick:
...The fact is that there is little room here to be dogmatic on the point...
Larry has made an important point that is at the foundation of the questions that I asked earlier that remain unanswered. Dogmatism, one way or the other, on this point misses the whole point of the story as recorded in Genesis 3.
However I am disappointed that notwithstanding a caution against dogmatism, Larry does proceed to be dogmatic. He insists upon a singular perspective on this point by concluding, "The Hebrew text neither suggests nor requires it in the least" with regard to the idea that the Hebrew word for "with" points to "relationship" rather than "location".
While I am reluctant to challenge a Seminary graduate's rendition of the literal Hebrew text, I have to point out what appears to me to be an error regarding what Larry says about Genesis 9:9. The literal word in Hebrew is not "sons". It is literally "seed" which is most accurately understood as "decendents". And quite to the contrary to Larry's assertion the phrase "with him" does not appear in the original Hebrew text from what I have been shown.
To reinforce the need to avoid dogmatism on this point, the word "with" appears over 6,000 times in Scripture. There are a number of different words in the original languages that can be translated as "with". Each of those words tend to have varied menaings that only become clear by the context in which they are used, especially in Hebrew. And frequently the word is merely supplied in the English translation to make sense to English speaking people.
The Hebrew word for "with" used in Genesis 3:6 is in fact just as validly understood in context as having a connotation of location or proximity as opposed to relationship or association. For example, it is translated as "by" in Genesis 25:11, "from between" in Gen 48:12, "beside" in Joshua 7:2 and "accompanying" in 2 Samuel 6:4. In each of those texts the Hebrew word is is clearly understood to have a close proximity connotation. Likewise the Hebrew word is translated in Exodus 22:14, Ezra 5:2, 7:13 and Daniel 7:13 as "with" to show location in connection with something or someone else. There are numerous other examples, which only reinforces the point that from Scripture one should be careful about being too dogmatic this point.
But I still come back to my original question. Why is it so important for some to be so dogmatic on this point? I remain distressed that this has turned into an effort to defend or attack EGW at the expense of Scripture. Scripture should always be our primary source of authority on any point, but it seems that it is being forced to conform to EGW, rather than the other way around. Given that this is happening in a publically open section of this forum, does it not occur to anyone how this comes across to those who do not know of EGW? (I think we have already seen the ineffectiveness of using EGW to settle an argument over a disputed point of Scripture if one side does not regard her as inspired on a par with Scripture. I fyou cna not prove it solely from Scripture, you lose not only the argument but any oppotunity to dialog effectively and credibly on Scripture in the future.)
Consequently, the main point of the narrative is being lost sight of and nobody seems at all interested in even considering why it might be important, or not, where Adam was during to whole story. Anybody care to return the focus to the Scriptual account?
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 02/03/05 02:54 AM
The fact, as has already been stated in this thread, is that the Scriptural account implies that Adam wasn't with Eve when she was tempted by the devil through the medium of the serpent.
Various biblical scholars, as has already been shown in this topic, agree with this fact.
Ellen G. White, under the inspiration of God, also testifies to this fact.
Posted By: myarsman
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 02/03/05 05:41 AM
Q: Is it essential to our salvation that we understand where Adam was when Eve at of the Fruit of the ToKoG&E?
A: No
Q: Does understanding where Adam was when Eve ate of the Fruit of the ToKoG&E reveal any great Truth?
A: No
Q: Does the Bible provide sufficient evidence to reveal to us where Adam was when Eve ate of the TokoG&E?
A: Yes
Q: Will any further discussion on this topic lead us into any greater knowledge of Truth?
A: I seriously doubt it
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 02/03/05 06:50 PM
Tom, the reason it is important to me is the fact Paul wrote Eve, not Adam, was deceived. It is also important to me because Sister White wrote "I saw ..." I agree that the passage could be interpreted in several ways, that the context allows various views. The suggestion that Adam was with Eve at the tree and silently witnessed her transgression, and then followed her example, is one possibility. But not the only one.
Since the view that Sister White recounted is also a possibility I am more inclined to go with it, since it doesn't require me to figure out why she said "I saw ..." Also, I don't have to wonder if she too was deceived, if she was a true prophet or not. This approach could be considered a "cop out", but in light of the fact it isn't a critical point, I believe it's the best way to approach it. We need to pick our battles wisely.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 02/04/05 07:30 AM
"TokoG&E" Nice!
Is this an open forum? I thought it was an Adventist forum. Am I mistaken about this?
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 02/03/05 08:00 PM
Of course this is an Adventist forum. Why do you ask?
This particular forum of MSDAOL is a public forum open for even visitors who are not registered members to reply to.
MSDAOL consists of various types of forums:
1 - Some public forums where only registered members can create new topics and/or reply to existing topics.
2 - Some public forums where only registered members can create new topics and registered members and visitors can reply to existing topics.
3 - Some public forums where only authorized registered members can create new topics and registered members can reply to existing topics.
4 - Some public forums where only authorized registered members can create new topics and registered members and visitors can reply to existing topics.
5 - Some private forums into which only members of the SDA Church have access.
6 - Some private forums into which both members and friends of the SDA Church have access.
7 - Some private forums into which only invited members have access.
I hope this answers your question and any other questions that may be out there.
By the way, in case anybody is wondering, "TokoG&E" means "Tree of knowledge of good and evil."
Posted By: Larry Kirkpatrick
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 02/04/05 03:28 AM
1. Tom correctly points out my initial statement: the Hebrew text of Genesis 3:6 does not prove that Adam and Eve were together when she took the fruit, nor that they were apart from each other in terms of physical proximity at that moment.
2. I suggested an alternative interpretation from the one that had been suggested by the skeptics, pointing out that the idea of "with" here can also be understood as having reference to relationship. I indicated my opinion favoring this interpretation. However, I still hold to my first point above. Because we do not know whether the preposition "with" here meant in the physical or relational sense, the text cannot be used dogmatically on this point.
3. The word in Genesis 9:9 is indeed, as Tom points out, seeds, that is, descendants. I gave the wrong verse. What I had in mind was the previous verse 9:8 which says
????? ????? ?? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????
Literally, "And spoke God to Noah and to his sons with him, saying..." "With him" here is the masculine. In fact, here being attached to a noun, it is a possessive pronoun. Page Kelly's Hebrew Grammer, says "When attached to nouns, they function as possessive pronouns." p. 69. This one would be pronounced approximately "ito."
The feminine personal pronoun in Genesis 3:6 is also a possessive,
???
"with her." (The vowel pointing is missing here but you at least have the Hebrew consonants which was all that Moses wrote anyway.)
4. There is indeed a vast range of usage throughout the Bible. This is precisely what such language elements are for.
5. I must take exception to Tom's statement that the discussion is an attack or defense of EGW at the expense of Scripture. My objective in was to point out that the text need not be read in the way that places it in contradiction to what EGW saw. As one with knowledge of Hebrew, I find it fascinating that she so consistently agrees with the language although she did not know it.
6. I have no intention in spending energy engaging determined skeptics or parties hostile to EGW. If a mind is already closed to any other answer than its own, I entertain no illusions about opening it. If one is determined to claim direct inspiration for themselves in pushing a text where it cannot be taken by the commonly accepted usage of the language, I have no interest in debating such a person either, for again, his direct inspiration will trump whatever I say, no matter how well or how poorly I say it. I feel under no obligation to prove anything to such skeptics or prophets. My post was for the lurker.
Posted By: Larry Kirkpatrick
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 02/04/05 03:29 AM
Ah. It looks like the Hebrew fell out and was replaced by ??? marks. Wondered if that would happen. In any case, the points remain.
Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 02/04/05 06:52 PM
Thanks Larry for those clarifications. I think we are closer in our thinking on this than you or others might believe. For me, the essential aspects of the story of the fall do not depend at all on whether Adam and Eve were together at the tree or not. That is why I keep driving home the question that asks why do some, and in particular Daryl who started this topic, feel that it is so important to focus on this fact, as if that fact held some vital truth about the temptation and fall of Adam and Eve.
I would just like to also clarify that I really was not so concerned about your comments in relationship to EGW. My frustration is that the question that I keep repeating is invaribly short-circuited by the EGW trump card. (What a horribly mixed metaphor!
![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif)
) My question is really not about EGW or correctness of Hebrew interpretation, but about the perception of some that this fact makes some sort of difference in how sin entered this world and in terms of how salvation is achieved as a result and the nature of mankind.
Let me cut to the chase. I have already hinted at it in some of my other posts. (Read very carefully my post on January 25 found on page 3.) The way this aspect of the story was spun from the earliest times, Eve's wandering away from Adam highlighted a key perception of the differences between men and women. From ancient times even up to our time and most certainly during EGW's time the prevailing view was that somehow Eve, the women, was more vulnerable to temptation, that she was morally weaker and that only if ever in the presence of her protector Adam, the man, that she could be protected from the wiles of the tempter. It even went so far as to paint Eve as the evil sexual seductress of Adam that led to his fall, appealing to the one sure weakness of men. Even early paintings portrayed the serpent as distinctly female. The perception was not so much that if Adam had been there
with Eve, neither would have sinned. It was that even if Adam had been the one who had unconsciously wandered near the tree (This is how EGW describes it for Eve rather than a willful sneaking away from Adam.) that he would have had the superior intelligence and stronger moral fiber to see through the lies of the serpent and would have succesfully resisted. Do you see that even in the short quote from the 16th and 17th century commentators that Mike quoted? Milton really embellishes this idea in Pardise Lost.
There is little implication that the reason that they should have stuck together was that they
both needed each other. Rather than taking my question as an attack on EGW one can actually use her account of the story to answer my question. Read carefully the whole 3rd chapter of Patriarchs and Prophets. Notice how EGW departs from the temptation to use this fact to even remotely follow the prevailing view that denigrates women. She even emphasizes that Adam and Eve were equals. In the end I am quite comfortable with EGW's account.
Tom
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 02/05/05 07:26 AM
Here is one reason why this topic is important:
The angels had cautioned Eve to beware of separating herself from her husband while occupied in their daily labor in the garden; with him she would be in less danger from temptation than if she were alone. But absorbed in her pleasing task, she unconsciously wandered from his side. . . . She soon found herself gazing with mingled curiosity and admiration upon the forbidden tree. The fruit was very beautiful, and she questioned with herself why God had withheld it from them. Now was the tempter's opportunity. As if he were able to discern the workings of her mind, he addressed her: "Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" . . . {CC 15.4}
I bolded the main reason why this topic is important.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 02/04/05 08:10 PM
"Of course this is an Adventist forum. Why do you ask?
This particular forum of MSDAOL is a public forum open for even visitors who are not registered members to reply to."
Someone made a comment somewhere that we act in a certain way because this was an open forum. I can't remember now the exact comment. It was that comment that prompted my question.
Depending on one's audience could shape how one used the Spirit of Prophesy, for example, as well as taking for granted certain assumptions that SDA's have.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 02/04/05 09:18 PM
The reason why this is an open forum is for the reason that Sabbath School in church is also open to the public, however, we should act here in an open forum as we would act there in an open Sabbath School class.
If a topic becomes too sensitive though, it can, and probably, will be moved into one of the private forums of MSDAOL where visitors can neither read nor participate.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/13/06 04:08 AM
The following quote posted in a different topic prompted me to post here and revive this topic:
quote:
"Satan charmed the first Adam by his sophistry, just as he charms men and women today, leading them to believe a lie. Adam did not reach above his humanity for divine power. He believed the words of Satan. But the second Adam was not to become the enemy's bondslave." {ST, December 3, 1902 par. 6}
This quote confuses me as I thought the conversation was between the devil and Eve rather than between the devil and Adam, unless Adam was also there and listened to and was also deceived by the devil.
I guess my question once again really is, was Adam there with Eve in front of the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil where the devil disguised as a serpent conversed with Eve and deceived her? If not, then how do we explain the above quote?
Posted By: Darius
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/13/06 05:00 PM
Whether EGW was aware of it I cannot tell, but this is one case where she suffers from a loose reading of her work. The key to understanding this account is to note when the female was first called Eve. Most Christians tend to discuss this story as if she were always called Eve. Fact is that she was only called Eve after the fall. Adam is a reference to both of them because they were both one. The discussion was between the female and the serpent but in that discussion she bound the male as well.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/13/06 06:02 PM
The best way to explain the ST quote Daryl posted is to read it in the larger context of Sister White's understanding as shared all throughout the SOP. She makes it abundantly clear that Adam and Eve were separated when Eve was tempted to eat the forbidden fruit. That's why if Adam had been obedient Jesus would have handled things far differently.
Why do you ask, Daryl?
Posted By: Darius
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/13/06 06:52 PM
MM, the Bible says that Adam was with Eve. Pick your authority.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/13/06 11:07 PM
Daryl,
No, Adam was not there when Satan spoke through the serpent, but he believed the words of Satan as repeated by Eve:
“Adam was not deceived by the serpent, as was Eve, and it was inexcusable in Adam to rashly transgress God's positive command. Adam was presumptuous because his wife had sinned. He could not see what would become of Eve. He was sad, troubled, and tempted. He listened to Eve's recital of the words of the serpent, and his constancy and integrity began to waver. Doubts arose in his mind in regard to whether God did mean just as He said. He rashly ate the tempting fruit.” {Con 86.1}
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/13/06 11:41 PM
Some versions which don't translate the text as "her husband with her":
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, and he ate. (RSV)
When the Woman saw that the tree looked like good eating and realized what she would get out of it--she'd know everything!--she took and ate the fruit and then gave some to her husband, and he ate. (The Message)
And when the woman saw that the tree was good (suitable, pleasant) for food and that it was delightful to look at, and a tree to be desired in order to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she gave some also to her husband, and he ate. (Amplified Bible)
The woman saw that the tree was good for food, and pleasing to the eyes, and could fill the desire of making one wise. So she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave some to her husband, and he ate. (New Life Version)
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/14/06 05:03 AM
I looked up a Bible Commentary by Matthew Henry who said the following:
quote:
4. She gave also to her husband with her. It is probable that he was not with her when she was tempted (surely, if he had, he would have interposed to prevent the sin), but came to her when she had eaten, and was prevailed upon by her to eat likewise; for it is easier to learn that which is bad than to teach that which is good. She gave it to him, persuading him with the same arguments that the serpent had used with her, adding this to all the rest, that she herself had eaten of it, and found it so far from being deadly that it was extremely pleasant and grateful. Stolen waters are sweet. She gave it to him, under colour of kindness - she would not eat these delicious morsels alone; but really it was the greatest unkindness she could do him. Or perhaps she gave it to him that, if it should prove hurtful, he might share with her in the misery, which indeed looks strangely unkind, and yet may, without difficulty, be supposed to enter into the heart of one that had eaten forbidden fruit. Note, Those that have themselves done ill are commonly willing to draw in others to do the same. As was the devil, so was Eve, no sooner a sinner than a tempter.
It is interesting to note that this Bible commentator feels that Adam wasn't present during the devil's disguised conversation with Eve.
EGW's comments on this came to the same conclusion with an inspired detailed description of what did happen.
Posted By: Darius
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/14/06 04:28 PM
You guys need to stay in touch with the reality you know. When was the last time you heard the devil speak as he tempted someone else? Why do we come to the unnecessary conclusion that if Adam had been present he would have heard the conversation between the Woman and the serpent? The Bible says he was with her. Now we are being told that Moses was smoking something when he wrote that.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/14/06 04:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man:
Why do you ask, Daryl?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/14/06 05:42 PM
Darius, are you an expert in Hebrew? (Maybe you are, I don't know). Daryl has quoted one who is, and that person has interpreted the story as Adam not necessarily being there. So I'm curious as to what basis you are insisting Adam was there? Because some given English translation seems to say so?
Posted By: Darius
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/14/06 06:05 PM
Tom, do you accept what all the "experts" in Hebrew say about the Sabbath? Let's get real. Besides, Matthew Henry was not doing interpretation. He was doing a "it is probable." He quoted the text as saying he was with her but he had a personal opinion that has no rational basis. He erroneously assumed that the temptation took place as an interview. When was the last time you heard the devil tempt someone? Do you think that the people sitting next to you in church are not struggling with temptation right next to you?
The bottom line is that Adam was irrelevant once the Woman ate. (You keep calling her Eve but she was only called Eve after they met with the Creator later.) The Woman and the Man were one so the actions of the one bound the other. This is a truth we seem anxious to discard to our our loss.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/15/06 02:01 AM
That may be true of Henry's commentary re probable, however, Ellen White said it under the inspiration of the same Person who inspired the Bible writers.
I also don't get stuck on one Bible verse where it refers to her husband with her, but I look at the whole story of the Fall.
Posted By: Darius
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/15/06 02:04 AM
How does the entire story of the Fall place her away from her husband?
Posted By: Jeff
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/15/06 04:31 AM
Quote: posted by DariusHow does the entire story of the Fall place her away from her husband?
|
Darius, I think what Daryl is saying is that the entire story presented throughout the Bible makes Lucy have more splainin’ to do if Adam was present with Eve and the serpent. I think MM explained it pretty well earlier.
Quote: posted by MM
| Once again, the Bible says Adam was with Eve in the Garden, but it doesn't say they were together when Satan deceived Eve. Paul makes it clear Adam was not deceived, therefore, it is obvious to me that Adam was not present when Eve ate the fruit. Since he wasn't deceived he obviously ate the fruit intending to share her fate. It makes perfect sense to me. But I realize it doesn't make sense to everybody. Oh well. |
One verse makes it seem like they were together. However, that interpretation doesn’t work all that well with other scripture. Because it really is more ambiguous as to exactly when “with her” was than you admit, it’s not as cut and dried as you make it out to be.
Jeff
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/15/06 05:02 AM
When I read the part where God questions both Adam and Eve, and their individual answers, I get the picture that Adam wasn't physically present with Eve during the conversation between the, devil via the serpent, and Eve.
quote:
Gen. 3:11 MKJV And He said, Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree which I commanded you that you should not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.
13 And Jehovah God said to the woman, What is this you have done? And the woman said, The serpent deceived me, and I ate.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/15/06 03:22 PM
Darius,
Some questions about things that are not clear to me.
What you are saying is that the woman was being tempted just in her mind. In this case, there would be no such real animal as a serpent tempting her. Why then was the serpent (the animal) punished (Gen. 3:14)?
I suppose the woman was being tempted in her mind but the man wasn’t, although he was with her. Do you think he just stood there watching as she plucked the fruit and ate it, and then took a bite of the fruit himself?
Posted By: Darius
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/15/06 03:30 PM
"With her" does not have to mean he was watching what she was doing. If I am six feet from you I am with you. The impression given by those who say he was not with her is that Eve had strayed from her husband and he was in some other part of the garden.
Posted By: Davros
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/15/06 06:03 PM
Well, the Hebrew does not actually give a hint of the words "with her." Here is the general dictionary translation for the verse:
quote:
The woman saw the tree was good for food; it was pleasant to the eyes, a tree to be desired to make one wise; she took and eat, and gave to man and he eat.
Not pretty I know, but the phrase "with her" is not present. It is placed in there for English translation to make the sentence flow.
quote:
The woman saw that the tree was beautiful, that its fruit was good to eat, and that it would make her wise. So she took some of its fruit and ate it. She also gave some of the fruit to her husband, and he ate it.
Genesis 3:6 NCV
With this, as well as many others, there is not hint of the man being beside the woman at the tree.
quote:
Now think-- be realistic, if Adam were actually by her side while she was talking to the serpent what would have happened?
Compare this to Paul's statement in 1 Tim. 2.14
"And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. "
So if Adam was NOT DECEIVED, that means he knew the serpent was lying. If he were standing there beside Eve, listening to that serpent with her, knowing the serpent was lying, would he have just STOOD there, allowing her to be deceived?
The clause "her husband with her" more realistically means, her husband, who was with her in the garden of Eden.
Gen. 3:17 "Because you listened to the voice of your wife..." Indicates that it wasn't the serpent that beguiled Adam, it was Eve talking him into it. Remember Paul tells us Adam was NOT deceived. He ate that fruit from some other motive.--- He did it because he didn't want to be separated from his wife.
The logic is fully on EGW's side.
Posted By: Davros
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/16/06 07:04 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
When was the last time you heard the devil tempt someone?
I'm sure it is not the last time I heard of it, but here is an example of a verbal temptation.
quote:
The devil came to Jesus to tempt him, saying, "If you are the Son of God, tell these rocks to become bread." Jesus answered, "It is written in the Scriptures, 'A person does not live by eating only bread, but by everything God says.'" Then the devil led Jesus to the holy city of Jerusalem and put him on a high place of the Temple. The devil said, "If you are the Son of God, jump down, because it is written in the Scriptures: 'He has put his angels in charge of you. They will catch you in their hands so that you will not hit your foot on a rock.'" Jesus answered him, "It also says in the Scriptures, 'Do not test the Lord your God.'" Then the devil led Jesus to the top of a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and all their splendor. The devil said, "If you will bow down and worship me, I will give you all these things." Jesus said to the devil, "Go away from me, Satan! It is written in the Scriptures, 'You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him.'" So the devil left Jesus, and angels came and took care of him.
Matthew 4:3 - 11 NCV
And if we are to be literal about the Genesis account, then this must have been a verbal temptation.
quote:
Now the snake was the most clever of all the wild animals the Lord God had made. One day the snake said to the woman, "Did God really say that you must not eat fruit from any tree in the garden?" The woman answered the snake, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden. But God told us, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden. You must not even touch it, or you will die.'" But the snake said to the woman, "You will not die. God knows that if you eat the fruit from that tree, you will learn about good and evil and you will be like God!"
Genesis 3:1 - 5 NCV
Posted By: Jeff
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/16/06 07:12 AM
Dave, what is your source for the “dictionary translation”?
Jeff
Posted By: Davros
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/16/06 07:46 AM
www.StudyLight.org You'll find the Septuagint easyer to read than the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia, but they produce the same results.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/15/06 08:14 PM
Darius, you're biased and selective acceptance of the authority of the Bible and the SOP hinders your ability to understand the truth. It also hinders your ability to contribute in any meaningful way to this study. It boils down to your word against the Bible's or the SOP's.
Posted By: Darius
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/15/06 08:58 PM
Dave, I see that you inserted the word "audibly" into the text. That is your choice.
Posted By: Darius
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/15/06 08:59 PM
MM, beware of false assumptions.
Posted By: Davros
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/15/06 09:48 PM
quote:
say
VERB:
- To utter aloud; pronounce: The children said, "Good morning."
To express in words: Say what's on your mind. - To state as one's opinion or judgment; declare: I say let's eat out.
- To state as a determination of fact: It's hard to say who is right in this matter.
To repeat or recite: said grace.To report or maintain; allege.
- To indicate; show: The clock says half past two.
- To give nonverbal expression to; signify or embody: It was an act that said "devotion."
To suppose; assume: Let's say that you're right.the American Heritage Dictionary
No insertion required here. To say is to be verbal by definition. To me, it would seem that you insert the words non verbaly into the text, and that is your choice (as ill advised as it may be)!
If it was a non verbal communication, why take the physical form of a snake? What would be the point to shuch a thing?
Posted By: Jeff
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/16/06 07:04 AM
Darius, the text does not say the conversation was inaudible. In fact the text supports more that it was audible.
quote:
Gen 3:1-6 NASB Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?" (2) The woman said to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; (3) but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.'" (4) The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! (5) "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
What permission do you find in the context to say that “he said” / “she said” doesn’t’ mean that words were exchanged audibly?
It seems somewhere else someone mentioned that you do not take the creation story literally. If that’s the case, you’re free to your opinion. But if your point depends on this belief, you really need to first convince everyone that it’s just an allegory.
Unless you take the whole story allegorically, you don’t have permission to assume that the conversation between Eve and the serpent was inaudible as you say. Of course if the basis for your belief is that the text is allegorical, then you can have it mean whatever you want. You can then always be right. But that doesn’t make for a very fruitful discussion, and it certainly doesn't have any relationship with the truth.
Jeff
Posted By: Darius
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/16/06 03:58 PM
Jeff, when was the last time Satan tempted you audibly? Do you believe you are at a higher level of consciousness/intelligence than the Woman was?
Posted By: Redfog
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/16/06 04:41 PM
What I don't understand is if the Bible and SOP are wrong on a literal creation week then how is it possible to believe in the Adam, Eve and fall story at all?
Redfog
Posted By: Darius
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/16/06 04:52 PM
That is the kind of thinking I would expect from my kindergartner, not from you. The writers of the Bible were wrong on many things but that doest not make their work completely unreliable. It is a characteristic of humans that they are occasionally wrong. Being wrong is not the end of the world.
Posted By: Davros
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/16/06 05:49 PM
That's a rather silly thing to say in light of verses like this:
quote:
Most of all, you must understand this: No prophecy in the Scriptures ever comes from the prophet's own interpretation. No prophecy ever came from what a person wanted to say, but people led by the Holy Spirit spoke words from God.
2 Peter 1:20 - 21 NCV
So, if "The writers of the Bible were wrong on many things," and the scripture never comes from what the authors wanted to say or their own interpretation, that would mean the Holy Spirit led the authors in the wrong way.
I can see why one would be so against religion with an outlook like that. Most confusing.
Posted By: Jeff
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/16/06 05:52 PM
Darius, you chastise people for saying that “with her’ doesn’t mean “with her”, then you say that “he said” / “she said” doesn’t’ mean “he said” / “she said”. It seems like you get to make up the rules as you go. You can’t accuratly judge everything by your own personal experience you know. That leaves a rather narrow, albeit convenient worldview. And to imply that I think I have a higher level of consciousness/intelligence than Eve because I say the serpent spoke to Eve audibly is not a reasonable conclusion and only diverts from the topic.
Since we’re diverting off topic, I might as well go there. To be honest, and maybe a little blunt, I get the feeling that you’ve made up your own religion. You pick and choose which scriptures are wrong; you pick and choose which verses you take literally, almost as if the choice were arbitrary. I think it’s not arbitrary at all though. I think that you’ve merely created in your own mind your own idea of how things are based upon your own experiences. If, for example, Paul doesn’t live up to how you think the Gospel aught to be, you discount those parts.
The Bible is what it is. It’s either true or it isn’t. If the same Spirit of truth inspires two different authors, what they write aught to be truth. If Paul’s writings or parts of his writings contain error, then what is the basis for the stuff you think contains errors or not? Near as I can tell, the only basis is your own contrived religion. I suppose it’s convenient that way that you’re never wrong, but then that would require that truth is relative to whatever you think it is, rather than what it really is.
You can’t gain truth by claiming that only *some* parts of scripture are truthful and then pick and choose the ones that agree with how you think it aught to be, and still be credible with anyone. You can’t be credible because you have no logical basis for how you determine what is error and what isn’t. The Bible is just another book if you get to pick the parts you like and ignore the rest. The Bible is the basis for belief in Christianity. Otherwise, you might as well be Buddhist. If you reconcile your beliefs against only your beliefs, where’s the standard?
Darius, I’m sorry this is getting long, but my fingers just keep typing. I want you to know that I admire that you are willing to stand up for what you believe even if it goes against what everyone else is saying. That’s a good trait, I think. However, my biggest point of contention is that you stand up for what you believe against a backdrop of your own making, and you don’t really defend your belief…I’m not really sure you even define your belief. Also, it would probably help your credibility orders of magnitude if you were a bit more direct in your conversation. You speak to people as if you’re the schoolmaster, which above coming off arrogant, seems you usurp the title from the rightful Owner.
Back on topic, when people have explained why “with her” doesn’t necessarily mean “with her” they went back to the original languages, back to the solid foundation, and made their arguments from there. When you said that “he said” / “she said” doesn’t mean they actually spoke to each other, you used your own personal experience and made your arguments from there. What credibility have you established that your personal experience should convince me?
But if you want me to answer your question with anecdotes, yes, I’ve audibly heard the devil speak to me through people who’ve tried to get me to do things that are wrong…sometimes successfully. But really, whether it was audible or not, does it really either way require that Adam was either present or not with Eve at the forbidden tree when she was deceived?
Jeff
Posted By: Davros
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/16/06 05:53 PM
I still would like an answer to this question.
quote:
If it was a non verbal communication, why take the physical form of a snake? What would be the point to shuch a thing?
You see, the devil has never tempted me verbaly, but I have never physicaly seen him either.
Posted By: Jeff
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/16/06 05:55 PM
I meant to add that the audible thing seems like an unnecessary diversion.
Jeff
Posted By: Darius
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/17/06 07:20 AM
Jeff, the problem is that we are the ones who have tried to make the Bible a final authority, then we pretend that it is not what it really is; a Jewish history. It tells a story from the perspective of those who wrote it. Some of it is factually correct and some of it is not. This does not take away from its overall usefulness. It certainly is duplicitous to pretend that you take the Bible as it is. There are many parts of the Bible you discount as binding on you. One example is Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus. You don't take that as being reflective of reality. You find your way around it.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/16/06 08:07 PM
Darius, your view of inspiration is nothing short of heresy and blasphemy. Please stop wasting our time and space on MSDAOL. Thank you.
Posted By: Darius
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/16/06 08:38 PM
MM, you don't know what inspiration is.
Posted By: Davros
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/16/06 08:43 PM
Paging Darius A. Lecointe!
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Hoover:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Hoover:
That's a rather silly thing to say in light of verses like this:
quote:
Most of all, you must understand this: No prophecy in the Scriptures ever comes from the prophet's own interpretation. No prophecy ever came from what a person wanted to say, but people led by the Holy Spirit spoke words from God.
2 Peter 1:20 - 21 NCV
So, if "The writers of the Bible were wrong on many things," and the scripture never comes from what the authors wanted to say or their own interpretation, that would mean the Holy Spirit led the authors in the wrong way.
I can see why one would be so against religion with an outlook like that. Most confusing.
I take it you have some extra "insperation" as to what insperation is?
I also take it you have no way of countering the questions I have posted. This conclusion has been reached by observing your normal practice of avoiding and word games
Posted By: Darius
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/16/06 08:56 PM
Dave, there are some discussions I don't have with my five year old. His level of sophistication demands it. Your questions are based on a total misinterpretation of the texts you posted so what is the use. I would have to correct those errors first. Given your mindset I see no value in it.
Posted By: Davros
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/16/06 09:02 PM
Or, in other words, I have no answers, so I will cop out! Sometimes plain language is more useful! You speak of sophistication and then try to belittle when asked serious questions. Obviously, sophistication is more of an issue for you than most. Seeing how you have never tried to correct the alleged errors that 99% of the users of this forum believe, one must conjecture that you have no real understanding and are just trying to avoid any serious questions. If any misrepresentation has taken place, one would probably conjecture that it takes place in your mind.
Posted By: Darius
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/16/06 09:04 PM
Be happy with what makes you happy, Dave. It will be no other way.
Posted By: Jeff
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/16/06 09:08 PM
Quote: posted by Darius| Jeff, the problem is that we are the ones who have tried to make the Bible a final authority, then we pretend that it is not what it really is; a Jewish history. It tells a story from the perspective of those who wrote it. Some of it is factually correct and some of it is not. This does not take away from its overall usefulness. |
Darius, so then what is your final authority regarding religion? How then do you find any reason to believe anything in Judeo-Christian based teaching? If you want to believe in a god, you can always go pagan…or, why not just go with a generic Deist. If it’s just Jewish history written by Jews, then it’s not inspired, and not authoritative. Why even believe there was a Jesus at all? If the Bible was just written by people from their own perspective, the miracles and claims of Jesus may have only been their best explanation for their experience.
So if the Bible is just a historical document, albeit a “useful” one, then why do you bother arguing points from it? Why argue from a basis that no one else accepts? Shouldn’t you first try to convince that your basis is true, that the Bible is just Jewish history? Otherwise you waste people’s time with the pretense that both sides at least have the same source in common. In reality your source is not the Bible at all, but your own whim. If you’re right, then of course our source is nothing but a whim either, so we’re both arguing your whim against mine. What a colossal waste of time.
Quote: posted by Darius
| It certainly is duplicitous to pretend that you take the Bible as it is. There are many parts of the Bible you discount as binding on you. One example is Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus. You don't take that as being reflective of reality. You find your way around it. |
Since we’ve wasted so much time already though, what’s another few minutes, eh? That I don’t take the parable of the rich man and Lazarus as laying down a doctrine that aims to define the nature of heaven, hell, life and death, does not mean that I don’t take it as binding for anything. The parable’s purpose is not to define life and death, heaven and hell, but in short to demonstrate wrong attitudes through a story that the locals would understand. So, there is no duplicity in the example you gave.
Since we’re talking about duplicity, how is it that the parts of the Bible that are “factual” are only factual when it makes a point that is convenient for you? If you get to pick and choose, why do you accuse others of picking and choosing?
Besides our mutual "duplicity", it seems we have something else in common. I've got a five year old as well.
Jeff
Posted By: Davros
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/16/06 09:09 PM
And the word games continue. What meakes me happy? The work that God has set before me, but I don't think that is what you were refering to.
Would you care to elaborate on your insperation on insperation?
Posted By: Davros
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/16/06 09:17 PM
A question I have often wonders about is this. Why does someone wish to be a Seventh-day Adventist when that person does not believe most of the things the Seventh-day Adventist church teaches and believes?
Posted By: Darius
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/16/06 09:27 PM
Jeff, my only final authority is the Creator of the universe and He has found it fit to remain hidden from us. This does not mean I cannot interact with Him. In fact, everytime I interact with His creation I interact with Him. "In as much as ye have done to the least of these ye have done it unto me." We would do better if we sought to treat the creation properly than in trying to accumulate unveriable facts about a being we cannot see, feel or touch.
Let's face it, when we speak of the authority of the Bible we really are referring to the authority of those who interpret the Bible on our behalf. How else to you explain the utter confusion in Christianity?
Posted By: Darius
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/16/06 09:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Hoover:
A question I have often wonders about is this. Why does someone wish to be a Seventh-day Adventist when that person does not believe most of the things the Seventh-day Adventist church teaches and believes?
Who are you talking about? Is this statement based on fact or fiction?
Posted By: Davros
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/16/06 09:31 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
"In as much as ye have done to the least of these ye have done it unto me."
So you try to belittle God?
quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
How else to you explain the utter confusion in Christianity?
The Devil's work would be a good explanation. Did you see the NET06 meeting last night? That could tell you a lot.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/16/06 09:36 PM
I caution you all to speak to the topic and not to the person/s posting in the topic.
If anybody has any complaints about any person and/or their post/s, please, either use the
Report Post feature, or send me a PM or email.
Posted By: Davros
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/16/06 09:36 PM
It is a fact that the Seventh-day Adventist Church believes...
quote:
The Holy Scriptures, Old and New Testaments, are the written Word of God, given by divine inspiration through holy men of God who spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
In this Word, God has committed to man the knowledge necessary for salvation.
The Holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of His will.
They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the authoritative revealer of doctrines, and the trustworthy record of God's acts in history.
And you state...
quote:
when we speak of the authority of the Bible we really are referring to the authority of those who interpret the Bible on our behalf.
Or how about the Trinity? I have met several "Adventists" who try to say that only the father exists
Posted By: Jeff
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/16/06 09:48 PM
You know, this thread has become terribly derailed. This shouldn’t be about Darius. I think we need to bring it back to topic. I’m sorry for the part I’ve played in the train wreck.
Jeff
Posted By: Davros
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/16/06 09:51 PM
Treu, and this topic is not about the insperation of the Bible or the level or inspration of the Bible. The facts of the story are quite plain, so the question should not take this many pages to answer.
Posted By: Darius
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/16/06 10:51 PM
How important is it to believe that Adam was not present with the Women (she had not yet been called Eve so let's keep to the facts and stop calling her Eve)? Had they ever been told that they should stick to each other like white on rice?
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/17/06 12:31 AM
As she and Eve are the one and the same person irrespective as to when she was actually named, calling her Eve is most acceptable.
Posted By: Avalee
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/17/06 01:25 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
That is the kind of thinking I would expect from my kindergartner, not from you. The writers of the Bible were wrong on many things but that doest not make their work completely unreliable. It is a characteristic of humans that they are occasionally wrong. Being wrong is not the end of the world.
Darius I find your post very disturbing IF you claim to be a Christian.
The writers of the Bible were NEVER wrong in anything. They were inspried by the Holy Spirit.
I find it very hard to believe that anyone who professes to be a Christian would dare say such a thing about God's Holy Word.
Posted By: Darius
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/17/06 01:28 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
As she and Eve are the one and the same person irrespective as to when she was actually named, calling her Eve is most acceptable.
A rather interesting approach which explains why there is so much confusion around here. Sometimes our views are influenced by the things we ignore.
Posted By: Darius
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/17/06 01:30 AM
Avalee, I don't understand your concern. You must have a flawed view of the effect of inspiration. Inspiration does not make anyone infallible.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/17/06 08:44 PM
Darius, just because MSDAOL is willing to tolerate your absolute disregard of the infallible inspiration of the Bible and the SOP it does not give you the right to continue posting on MSDAOL. Please, do the honorable thing, and stop wasting our time and space. Thank you.
May I also encourage MSDAOL members to stop responding to Darius' posts as they are not based on faith in the infallibility of the authoritative nature of the Bible and the SOP. He places his "inspired" opinions and insights above those of the Bible and the SOP. Thank you.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/18/06 02:55 AM
As Darius is no longer able to post at MSDAOL, let us focus on the topic.
Posted By: D R
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/18/06 03:18 AM
Does it REALLY matter if Adam was beside Eve ??? The sin of mankind began, and we are ALL under sin, BUT we can ALL be under Christ if WE so choose, for He has chosen each of US! Let us choose where we are to stand now and this argument of "where was Adam, where was Eve..." does it really make a difference ?
Posted By: Jeff
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/18/06 04:58 AM
Snowman, (brrrr…makes me cold typing that)
I think the purpose of the thread is more about reconciling statements in the Bible and SOP than expressing the importance of it.
Jeff
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/18/06 06:44 PM
I agree, Jeff. That's why I am so happy Darius has been denied access here. Finally!!!
Posted By: Jeff
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/19/06 01:49 AM
Anyway, back on topic, Daryl’s question that revived this thread seems unanswered yet.
quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
The following quote posted in a different topic prompted me to post here and revive this topic:
quote:
"Satan charmed the first Adam by his sophistry, just as he charms men and women today, leading them to believe a lie. Adam did not reach above his humanity for divine power. He believed the words of Satan. But the second Adam was not to become the enemy's bondslave." {ST, December 3, 1902 par. 6}
This quote confuses me as I thought the conversation was between the devil and Eve rather than between the devil and Adam, unless Adam was also there and listened to and was also deceived by the devil.
I guess my question once again really is, was Adam there with Eve in front of the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil where the devil disguised as a serpent conversed with Eve and deceived her? If not, then how do we explain the above quote?
I think we’ve answered this part of it, that we can infer from the full context of scripture and from the SOP that Adam was not with Eve when she ate the fruit. But this still does not reconcile the quote Daryl posted from ST. As MM pointed out earlier, the SOP makes it clear that the two weren’t together by the tree when Eve was decieved, yet that makes the ST statement more difficult to understand. It is probably easiest to find a plausible meaning that reconciles the two statements, but it seems it should be an obvious one. So, is there a plausible, obvious meaning that we can apply to the ST quote that reconciles with Adam and Eve being separate?
I think so but I'd like to really see the full context of the quote. I tried to bring up the article on the EGW estate website to see the context around the statement, but java and my browser aren't getting along at the moment so the site's application isn't working for me. Can anyone else paste the full context of the quote?
Jeff
(edited to remove remarks about Darius)
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/19/06 04:33 AM
Here is the full quote within the context of the bolded portion of this quote:
quote:
December 3, 1902 "In All Points Tempted Like As
We Are."
By Mrs. E. G. White.
Christ came to this world as a man, to prove to angels and to men that man may overcome, that in every emergency he may know that the powers of Heaven are ready to help him. Our Saviour took the nature of man, with all its possibilities. We have nothing to endure that He has not endured. {ST, December 3, 1902 par. 1}
At Christ's baptism the glory of God rested upon Him, as a dove of burnished gold. Light from the throne of God encircled Him, while from heaven were heard the words, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." {ST, December 3, 1902 par. 2}
Then Christ was led by the Spirit into the wilderness; and here His test came. He went into the wilderness to be alone, to contemplate His mission and work. By fasting and prayer He was to brace Himself for the bloodstained path He must travel. But Satan knew that the Saviour had gone into the wilderness; and he thought this the best time to approach Him. {ST, December 3, 1902 par. 3}
Before beginning His public ministry, Christ submitted to the fierce assaults of the enemy, knowing that without conflict there could be no victory. He condescended to engage in the contest under any circumstances that the foe might require. In all things He was made "like unto His brethren." He was "in all points tempted like as we are." "In that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted." {ST, December 3, 1902 par. 4}
In the wilderness Christ and Satan met in combat, Christ in the weakness of humanity, apparently with not a friend to aid Him. Satan is subtle. It is by falsehood that he seeks to prevail. With all the power that he possessed, he tried to overcome the Son of Man. Could he lead the Saviour to swerve a hair's breadth from His allegiance to God, the victory would be his. The world would pass under his control. {ST, December 3, 1902 par. 5}
Satan charmed the first Adam by his sophistry, just as he charms men and women today, leading them to believe a lie. Adam did not reach above his humanity for divine power. He believed the words of Satan. But the second Adam was not to become the enemy's bondslave. {ST, December 3, 1902 par. 6}
Adam had the advantage over Christ, in that when he was assailed by the tempter, none of the effects of sin were upon him. He stood in the strength of perfect manhood, possessing full vigor of body and mind. He was surrounded with the glories of Eden, and was in daily communion with heavenly beings. It was not thus with Jesus when He entered the wilderness to cope with Satan. For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity. Only thus could He rescue man from the lowest depths of degradation. {ST, December 3, 1902 par. 7}
Every device that the enemy could suggest was brought against Him. It was when Christ was in a weakened condition, after His long fast of forty days, that the wisest of the fallen angels used the most enticing words at his command in an effort to compel the mind of Christ to yield to his mind. {ST, December 3, 1902 par. 8}
"If Thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread." Here is the insinuation of distrust. In the tones of the tempter's voice is an expression of utter incredulity. Would God treat His own Son thus? Would He leave Him in the desert with wild beasts, without food, without companions, without comfort? Satan insinuated that God never meant His Son to be in such a state as this. "If Thou be the Son of God," he says, "show Thy power by relieving Thyself of this pressing hunger. Command that this stone be made bread." {ST, December 3, 1902 par. 9}
In His reply Christ made no reference to the doubt. He was not to prove His divinity to Satan, or to explain the reason of His humiliation. "It is written," He said, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." He met Satan with the words of Scripture. In every temptation the weapon of His warfare was the Word of God. Satan demanded of Christ a miracle as the sign of His divinity. But that which is greater than all miracles, a firm reliance on a "Thus saith the Lord," was a sign that could not be controverted. So long as Christ held this position, the tempter could gain no advantage. {ST, December 3, 1902 par. 10}
When Christ said to Satan, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God," He repeated the words that, more than fourteen hundred years before, He had spoken to Israel: "The Lord thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, . . . and He humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that He might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out the mouth of the Lord doth man live." In the wilderness, when all means of sustenance failed, God sent His people manna from heaven, and a sufficient and constant supply was given. This provision was to teach them that while they trusted in God, and walked in His ways, He would not forsake them. The Saviour now practised the lesson He had taught to Israel. By the word of God succor had been given the Hebrew host, and by the same word it would be given to Jesus. He awaited God's time to bring relief. He was in the wilderness in obedience to God, and He would not consent to obtain food by following the suggestions of Satan. In the presence of the witnessing universe He testified that it is a less calamity to suffer whatever may befall than to depart in any manner from the will of God.
(Concluded next week.)
-
{ST, December 3, 1902 par. 11}
Posted By: Jeff
Re: Was Adam Actually With Eve At The Forbidden Tree? - 03/19/06 09:02 AM
Thanks, Daryl.
I think that Adam’s and Eve’s disobedience was different. They both ate the forbidden fruit but for different reasons. Satan charmed Eve into believing that 1) she would be like God, and 2) that God was withholding something valuable. Though the first was a technical truth, the way she was afterward like God was not what Eve had in mind. According to SOP, apparently Satan charmed Adam with Eve’s disobedience. So, I don’t think that this quote is incompatible with other statements that say Eve and Adam apart when she was deceived.
Jeff