It has been done!
Posted By: Darius
It has been done! - 12/29/05 04:01 PM
I wonder how many sermons this past Sabbath were based on the well known pronouncement by the angel found in Matt. 1:21, "She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."
It is difficult to ignore the fact that the Christian community has completely dismissed the essential teaching of this heavenly decree, holding only to the fact that a child was born. We celebrate His birth each year but ignore the rest of the announcement in our theology and doctrines.
quote:
you are to give him the name Jesus
That makes sense. The Creator does not have a name. When Moses asked for one He received a verb rather than a noun.
quote:
because he will save
This is where we first go off the track. This is a guarantee. He will save! Yet, all of theologians have changed the word of the angel from a guarantee to a possibility. Now, Jesus is promised as a provision of salvation rather than as a guarantee. It is not surprise that we have the Babylonic confusion of atonement models developed by men who are convinced they have more information than the angel. It is even more troubling that today we continue to give these views credence.
quote:
his people from their sins
Who are "His people?" English majors will tell you that "his" is a possessive pronoun, indicating the people who belong to Him. Who are they? This should be an easy answer. His people are the people He created. Somewhere along the line an imposter called Satan lay claim to these people but the Creator never gave up His property rights. One would expect that the group of people who claim to follow the Creator would take His side in the dispute and accept the fact that the enter human race constitutes "His people." Instead, they have decided to accept the argument of the enemy so that their doctrines are based on the assumption that the entire human race does not constitute "His people."
The result is that, as interpreted by the Christian community, Matt. 1: 21 now reads, "She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will make salvation available to his people and will save some of his people from their sins."
If this is not blasphemy I do not know what is.
Darius
Posted By: Redfog
Re: It has been done! - 12/29/05 04:53 PM
So if I'm hearing you correctly you are saying that everyone, all His created people will be saved? I certainly hope I'm hearing you wrong.
Redfog
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 12/29/05 05:01 PM
Instead of jumping to conclusions, deal with what I posted. Do you accept the message of the angel or do you not. We will have time enough to decide whether your present beliefs agree with the angel or not.
Posted By: Colin
Re: It has been done! - 12/30/05 07:36 AM
Oh, Redfrog, but the angel who appeared to Joseph was spot on. And virtually all of us who profess to follow Christ Jesus our Lord don't want to believe that he saved the whole world all by himself which leaves all of us without excuse for sinning.
You realise the difference between your positions here is that God - for you - is not sovereign within his own sphere to do just as much as he wants to, while Darius' post clearly states that Christ actually saved the world outright in order to reassert his property rights over us all and that feat was a sovereign action against the Devil who claimed sovereignty. That's the only thing in Darius' post: Christ had to buy back his property right with his death, but the promise of doing so was made immediately it was lost.
Darius has brought out a point I hadn't thought of before. "His people" is the entire human race he himself created. Very true.
There is the online audio sermon on his website by Ps Larry from 2004 on the humanity of Christ as a Christmas sermon, under the topic of the reprinting of Questions on Doctrine. I don't think he yet agrees with us on your point here, Darius, but he made all the other elements of the gospel plan crystal clear.
So, you're right, Darius, no Christmas sermon deals with that text properly; it's always other, subjective (what we do) parts of the gospel which are dealt with.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: It has been done! - 12/29/05 08:45 PM
Jesus came to save everyone, however not everyone will accept Salvation. Everyone is in essence "His people", He loves everyone, but will not save everyone. His love, the desire for us, is Unconditional. His love, the relationship, is conditional. We are saved by having a relationship with the Creator, therefore Salvation is conditional.
Redfog
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 12/29/05 10:01 PM
Redfog, do you disagree that I correctly interpreted Matt. 1:21? What do you think the angel said then?
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It has been done! - 12/30/05 01:14 AM
It is often said that the difference between christinaity and other religions is that other religions are about doing while christianity is about what Jesus did. As Darius pointed out, this is often not accepted fully.
If a person have a difficult time accepting that Jesus died for and saved somebody else, could that be a sign that the person has a difficult time accepting that salvation is a gift offered for him/herslef aswell? In other words, "I cant accept it as a gift and I cant accept others recieving it as a gift"?
May God soften our hearts to accept Him as He is, not only as we want Him.
Thanks Darius for this thread.
/Thomas
Posted By: Redfog
Re: It has been done! - 12/30/05 03:08 AM
Darius I have no idea how you are interpreting Matt. 1:21. I asked you how you were and you gave didn't give me an answer. What's new?
![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
Now if you believe that Jesus will save everyone, regardless of their behavior, then yes you are interpreting it wrong. There is overwhelming evidence that Salvation is conditional.
I'm not sure it makes any difference whether or not the words "his people" in the text means all created people or just those that follow Him. Either way we know the path to Salvation and we know that it is conditional on us accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior. It requires a relationship with Him, we are not automatically saved.
Redfog
Posted By: D R
Re: It has been done! - 12/30/05 03:48 AM
WOW, this is definitly a case of SYMANTICS gone crazy!
-Salvation is ONLY available by HIS BLOOD! It is up to HIM whom shall be saved!
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 12/30/05 04:53 AM
Actually, it is more a show of how we make every effort to force the text to support the doctrines we already hold. Our confidence is in our doctrines rather than in God. Whatever He may have said we view it through the lenses of our beliefs.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: It has been done! - 12/30/05 05:38 AM
So Darius what is it that you feel we are forcing the issue on? Do you feel the SDA doctrine is wrong? A straight concrete, non evasive answer would be much appreciated.
Redfog
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 12/30/05 04:17 PM
Redfog, can we first deal with the text before us? Is it not obvious that the angel recognized a group as being His People BEFORE anything happened to them? Don't you see a difference between "He shall save people," and "He shall save His people?"
Posted By: Redfog
Re: It has been done! - 12/30/05 04:51 PM
Darius I have no idea what you are getting at.
![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif)
I've asked you questions you refuse to answer, I've answered your questions and you act like you've not read them. Again as in other threads vagueness seems to be your MO. You are hard to pin down on anything. Why not just tell us what you believe in concrete black and white terms so we can discuss whatever it is you are trying to get across. Communication should not be this hard or complicated.
![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif)
I've been trying to discus the text with you but you refuse to acknowledge that fact.
Redfog
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It has been done! - 12/30/05 08:08 PM
Darius, once again you are advocating, contrary to forum rules, your non-SDA views and labeling the SDA view as blasphemy. Please stop violating forum rules, please do the honorable thing and stop attacking SDA beliefs on this forum. Thank you.
Salvation is conditional upon faith and obedience - faith that works by love and purifies the soul.
FW 94
He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility. Man cannot be saved without obedience, but his works should not be of himself; Christ should work in him to will and to do of His good pleasure. If a man could save himself by his own works, he might have something in himself in which to rejoice. The effort that man makes in his own strength to obtain salvation is represented by the offering of Cain. All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin; but that which is wrought through faith is acceptable to God. When we seek to gain heaven through the merits of Christ, the soul makes progress. "Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith," we may go on from strength to strength, from victory to victory; for through Christ the grace of God has worked out our complete salvation. {FW 94.1}
AG 138
The most striking feature of this covenant of peace is the exceeding richness of the pardoning mercy expressed to the sinner if he repents and turns from his sin. The Holy Spirit describes the gospel as salvation through the tender mercies of our God. "I will be merciful to their unrighteousness," the Lord declares of those who repent, "and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more" (Heb. 8:12). Does God turn from justice in showing mercy to the sinner? No; God cannot dishonor His law by suffering it to be transgressed with impunity. Under the new covenant, perfect obedience is the condition of life. If the sinner repents and confesses his sins, he will find pardon. By Christ's sacrifice in his behalf, forgiveness is secured for him. Christ has satisfied the demands of the law for every repentant, believing sinner. . . . {AG 138.4}
1SM 366, 367
Without the grace of Christ, the sinner is in a hopeless condition; nothing can be done for him; but through divine grace, supernatural power is imparted to the man, and works in mind and heart and character. It is through the impartation of the grace of Christ that sin is discerned in its hateful nature, and finally driven from the soul temple. It is through grace that we are brought into fellowship with Christ, to be associated with Him in the work of salvation. Faith is the condition upon which God has seen fit to promise pardon to sinners; not that there is any virtue in faith whereby salvation is merited, but because faith can lay hold of the merits of Christ, the remedy provided for sin. Faith can present Christ's perfect obedience instead of the sinner's transgression and defection. When the sinner believes that Christ is his personal Saviour, then, according to His unfailing promises, God pardons his sin, and justifies him freely. The repentant soul realizes that his justification comes because Christ, as his substitute and surety, has died for him, is his atonement and righteousness. {1SM 366.3}
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 12/30/05 09:35 PM
Redfog, if your beliefs determine how you will interpret a text you are being driven by your beliefs. Unlike you, I prefer to go where the text leads instead of being more willing to twist it to fit my beliefs.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 12/30/05 09:37 PM
MM, we are discussing what the angel meant by what is recorded in Matt. 1:21. Please stay on topic.
Actually, Darius, Richard (redfog) HAS answered the question AND MM HAS stayed on topic. What I understood from your original post, the passage quoted from Matthew, is that Jesus came to save us from our sins. Yes, ALL people were CREATED by Him. However, there are those who have not accepted/will not accept the gift He gave to us. His people are in all churches, but that doesn't mean that ALL people are His. By that I mean if someone did not accept Him as his/her Lord and Savior, then the person died, he/she would NOT be resurrected as one of God's people. See Matt. 22:14.
Now, you suggest that the previous posters are not staying on topic, when, in fact, they ARE. It is you who is ignoring what they have to say. Redfog gave a specific answer to the question, but you act as though he did not. MM gave quotes to BACK UP the part about SALVATION in the original text. Again, you say we are off topic. You gave a blanket statement in the original post. When questioned about it, you evade the question. Please, give a straight, decisive answer? And don't say "there is plenty of time for that" It's a cop out, pure and simple. We gave our thoughts on the text. We told what we believe. You have refused....or, should I say, you are evasive?
Daryl, if you feel I am attacking Darius, do what you will with this post. Edit it as you see fit to keep it from sounding like i am attacking him, but, please, keep the basic information in it?
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 12/30/05 10:09 PM
SS, then I must conclude that you do not accept Matt. 1:21 for what it says. You do not believe it was a guarantee and you do not believe that identification of "his people" did not depend on completion of His mission. I want to know how you feel about what the Bible teaches. It is obvious you know what modern men believe. I say, "let God be true and every man a liar."
Posted By: Redfog
Re: It has been done! - 12/30/05 10:25 PM
Darius I do not have to twist any text to fit my beliefs since my beliefs are backed by the Bible, the whole Bible, not just a text here and there. At least I have the courage to state my beliefs in terms that can be understood. Whereas you are both vague and evasive about what you believe. This is in no way an attack on you it's just truth. Why do you even post on here if you are not willing to have sensible dialog? (Of course maybe the more logical question is why am I wasting my time trying to communicate with someone unwilling to do the same?) For some odd reason you expect others to answer your questions but won't extend the same courtesy to them. Well unless you have something concrete to offer this thread I'm done. I've answered your questions more than once but you ignore the answers so what's the use of trying any more?
Redfog
Posted By: Colin
Re: It has been done! - 12/30/05 11:02 PM
Thanks, Stephanie, for putting in your tuppence, since they are staying at more than armslength and aren't seeing eye to eye...You didn't appear out of order, really, but didn't they all deserve it?
MM and Regfrog haven't touched on Darius' point about Jesus' guarantee to save his people: they've only insisted that he doesn't have his own people until they agree to be his saved people - saying nothing about the "guarantee".
But then they're known for
upholding the salvation conditions of conditional faith at all times that the unconditional grace of God is mentioned (that I've seen)
. They totally avoid a proper discussion of God's uncondtional grace in action, instead insisting that conditional faith renders any notion of unconditional grace irrelevant(?) - I don't know what they do with God's unconditional grace, in discussion: do
they evade it? I mean it's in the text when it's brought up, like here, but just insisting that salvation is conditional because of conditional faith doesn't address unconditional grace....That's not terribly conversational, is it?
Darius wrote
quote:
because he will save
This is where we first go off the track. This is a guarantee. He will save! Yet, all of theologians have changed the word of the angel from a guarantee to a possibility. Now, Jesus is promised as a provision of salvation rather than as a guarantee. It is not surprise that we have the Babylonic confusion of atonement models developed by men who are convinced they have more information than the angel. It is even more troubling that today we continue to give these views credence.
Another word for unconditional grace is God's sovereignty: we all understand "sovereignty", don't we? It means the Godhead has absolute freedom to do what they like within their sphere (pretty big sphere ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif)
) and nobody can gainsay them or prevent them from doing it. Did God in Christ save the world, his created people, by sovereign action of his incarnation (Matt 1:21), life, death and resurrection (indirectly Matt 1:21; see below), so that by grace's reality the world is in a different status because of Christ? - this is not the world's status by faith (it has none, of course), but its status of grace, in Christ (which we have in him by being humans). Is Christ anything to the world before anybody believes in him?
This isn't just trying to confuse you, on my part: there are texts where Jesus is called "Saviour of the world" (Jn 4:42), "Saviour of all men" (1 Tim 4:10), even that his righteousness brought justification and life for all men (paraphrasing Rom 5:18). For anyone to believe in Jesus as a personal Saviour, what must Jesus have done - completely finished, and be for us all in order to be believed in?
Posted By: Redfog
Re: It has been done! - 12/30/05 11:41 PM
Colin that guarantee is a conditional guarantee. It is conditional on us following Jesus. I really fail to see how the words "His people" makes any difference. He will save His people (just His followers) or He will save His people (the entire human race) if certain conditions are met, the end is the same. Again the guarantee is, as the rest of the Bible shows, conditional on us accepting the offer of Salvation by surrendering to His will and having a relationship with the Creator. Of course I've already answered this several times....
Redfog
quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
SS, then I must conclude that you do not accept Matt. 1:21 for what it says. You do not believe it was a guarantee and you do not believe that identification of "his people" did not depend on completion of His mission. I want to know how you feel about what the Bible teaches. It is obvious you know what modern men believe. I say, "let God be true and every man a liar."
Ok, that was too much. I accept the BIBLE for what it says. Now, before His mission was completed, His people were the Jews.....also know as Israel, the children of Abraham. So, in keeping with this discussion, wouldn't that mean that only the Jews (Israel) would be saved? Now, to go a step furthur, He taught us to follow Him. In doing so, we join Him, making us His people.
I also know that anyone can take one text out of the bible and base their beliefs on just those few words. Many times I have heard the story of a man who wanted to know God's direction in his life. He read that "Judas hung himself" then skipped a few books and read "go and do likewise." So, he hung himself. My point? Twisting what the Bible says can be very easy. Mayn people do it today to make it fit their own ideals. Now, do I believe that Jesus' gift was to everyone? Absolutely. Do I believe everyone will BE SAVED? No, I do not. And my belief isd not based on what MAN says but on what GOD says, in HIS WORD, the BIBLE.
Now, what do you want to know as far as what I believe the Bible teaches? I'd like to know what YOU believe, as you have YET to answer THAT question. But, I suspect that I will be reprimanded and told to "stay on topic"
Incidently, my name is NOT "SS". It is either Steph, Stephanie, Stephanie Suranyi, or Mrs. Suranyi. I don't abbreviate your name as "D" so I would appreciate it if you would use one of the above when posting to me.
Colin, Actually, they HAVE answered the question. I read it myself...more than once. Richard said that it IS given to EVERYONE, just like Matt. 1:21 says. However, he expanded on that by stating that not everyone will TAKE it. What we are wondering is if Darius is suggesting that EVERYONE will be saved, whether they accept the gift of salvation or not? Because if he is, I would sincerely like to know how he came to that conclusion. That is what we are getting at. It would be so much easier if we knew what prompted Darius to start this thread in the first place. He wants to know what everyone else believes, we want to know what he believes. We tell him, he doesn't tell us. Richard and Mountain Man were not being evasive. They were answering the question to the best of their knowledge, based on what Darius gave them.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 12/31/05 12:58 AM
Steph, only you know why you are so defensive and I will leave you to deal with it. What I believe has nothing to do with what the text says. I could believe that God is a monkey; that would not change what the text says. All it would do is make a statement about my relationship to the text. Asking me what I believe is not a contribution to this discussion. Rather, it is a smokescreen being sent up to avoid dealing with the text. Why is there such fear?
I will tell you this, though. Beliefs are temporary things; hypotheses to be tested. The Shut Door used to be an Adventist belief/hypothesis until the data proved it to be more false than true. At that point it was discarded. This is why the evidence is more important than any belief.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It has been done! - 12/31/05 01:08 AM
First God chose Abraham, then Abraham proved worthy of Gods choise. What does this tell us about God?
/Thomas
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 12/31/05 01:22 AM
We should first state what God chose Abraham for. I am a citizen of the United States but I have not been chosen to be an official ambassador of the United States. However, ambassadors have no more rights as citizens than I do. Abraham was not chosen to be one of God's people. He always was. He was chosen as an ambassador; an appointment of grace.
Posted By: DebbieB
Re: It has been done! - 12/31/05 02:53 AM
Hi Guys, I have been following this thread since yesterday! I think though that maybe we have all missed the point of this text very slightly. For me the point of this text comes down to what happened at the crucifixion. When Jesus died was it for the whole world as Paul would have us believe in 1 Tim 4:10 or did he just die for those who would ultimately accept him?
If the latter be true then how can the 'heathen who by nature do the things of God' be saved? - for without the gift of Grace (see below my point about the cross) then how can God be a fair God?
My understanding of the text in question combined with the cross of Christ is that at Christ's death the
whole world was covered by the grace of God, thereby saving the whole world, in Him. When we come into contact with the gospel, and thereby Christ Himself, we can take one of two ways the one way is to accept him whereby we receive Justification by faith, and also Sanctification
![[Yay]](graemlins/yay.gif)
.
The other option is to remove ourselves completely from the free gift and 'shove it back in His face', thereby changing our destiny back to that of going to hell
![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It has been done! - 12/31/05 03:31 AM
Darius, your view of salvation contradicts the SOP quotes I posted above. As such, your view violates forum rules. The idea that Jesus has saved everyone is unbiblical. The only people who will be saved are those who accept Jesus as their personal Saviour AND who obey His law.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It has been done! - 12/31/05 03:35 AM
Colin and Debbie, if Jesus saved everyone on the cross, from the foundation of the world, how, then, can anyone be lost?
Posted By: Colin
Re: It has been done! - 12/31/05 05:20 AM
To be lost one must reject what God has done in Christ, after - ideally - one has heard the true gospel message... there are fakes out there...
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 12/31/05 03:09 PM
I think MM does not understand what it means to be lost and what it means to be saved. There will always be confusion (Babylon) where there is a lack of understanding.
Posted By: DebbieB
Re: It has been done! - 12/31/05 06:40 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man:
Colin and Debbie, if Jesus saved everyone on the cross, from the foundation of the world, how, then, can anyone be lost?
Look at the experience of Lucifer. He was in heaven; he had the highest position next to Jesus in heaven; therefore he had no excuse for his sin of self-exaltation. To lose his everlasting life and his position in heaven and seal his destiny of going to hell fire he had to choose to turn against God and likewise in order for any to be lost they must reject the workings of the Holy Spirit and take themselves out of the 'bubble' of Grace. However ill informed that choice, the lost will ALWAYS choose, to be removed from the book of life.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: It has been done! - 01/01/06 07:15 AM
I think, though I am not sure, that everyone on here believes that not everyone will be saved. Jesus came to save everyone but most will choose not to accept this wonderful gift. We might use big words and various semantics to say the same thing but I believe most of us are on the same page here. Now there might be some that want to argue till the cows come home what a certain word in a certain text means but that is not the right way of studying the Bible. You have to take the overall theme, not just a text here and there.
Redfog
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It has been done! - 12/31/05 08:23 PM
Colin and Debbie, the idea that we are saved by default and that we must consciously choose to reject Jesus in order to be lost doesn't ring right with me. I believe we are born lost, and that we must choose to be born again in order to inherit the kingdom of God.
John
3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
5T 515
You need to drink daily at the fountain of truth, that you may understand the secret of pleasure and joy in the Lord. But you must remember that your will is the spring of all your actions. This will, that forms so important a factor in the character of man, was at the Fall given into the control of Satan; and he has ever since been working in man to will and to do of his own pleasure, but to the utter ruin and misery of man. But the infinite sacrifice of God in giving Jesus, His beloved Son, to become a sacrifice for sin, enables Him to say, without violating one principle of His government: "Yield yourself up to Me; give Me that will; take it from the control of Satan, and I will take possession of it; then I can work in you to will and to do of My good pleasure." When He gives you the mind of Christ, your will becomes as His will, and your character is transformed to be like Christ's character. Is it your purpose to do God's will? Do you wish to obey the Scriptures? "If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me." {5T 515.1}
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It has been done! - 01/01/06 02:56 AM
I think that wether one is born saved or lost is irrelevent (except possibly for those who never grow up to a mature age). This becourse in Romans Paul seem to argue that nature reveals enough so that everyone will have the choise for or against God before they die.
/Thomas
Posted By: D R
Re: It has been done! - 01/01/06 09:35 AM
And what of the Children that have died before the age of their own personal reasoning??? The scripture states a HUGE responsibility to Parents! That we must pray, and raise the children in the word...
-We are born in sin (lost) and it is throgh Him that we are GIVEN (from Him) the gift of salvation! and Oh yes "once saved does not equate to ALWAYS saved" We must surrender daily, hourly, breath to breath!
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 01/01/06 01:05 PM
Redfog, if I were to take you seriously I would have to believe that the conversations that are recorded in the Bible had no meaning to the people who heard them. After all, they did not have available all the additional information you have. To what lengths will we go to deny the teachings of God?
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 01/01/06 01:08 PM
It is good to know that MM believes that all infants who die automatically go to hell. He can't even send them to Limbo anymore. Of course, he must suddenly claim ignorance of the writings of EGW that go against that grain. It is this kind of confusion, lukewarmness, that God warns against.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: It has been done! - 01/01/06 03:01 PM
Darius it's good to have these sureal conversations now and then I guess, but this is too much. In any case I'm heading South for a few days, like about 10 or so. Catch ya'll later.
Redfog
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 01/01/06 03:05 PM
Redfog, this may be surreal to you. To me it is the stark reality that our lack has kept the Lord away. That is not a joke to me.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It has been done! - 01/02/06 07:07 AM
Darius, your base allegations regarding what I believe about infants and hell are unkind and incorrect. Your caustic views and demeanor are, as usual, unwelcome here. Please take care to post your views in a winsome way. Thank you.
By the way, just in case you or anybody else is curious, I believe the salvation of infants is in the hands and heart of sweet Jesus, who will make no mistakes as to the eternal reward of babies who die before the age of accountability.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 01/02/06 07:14 AM
MM, if you believe that we are born lost this must mean that infants who die must go to hell. There is no other conclusion. Face the truth.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It has been done! - 01/02/06 04:16 AM
Being born in need of rebirth and the way God handles infants in judgment are two different matters. When people die before they reach the age of accountability, or before they learn certain Bible truths (i.e., the sabbath), the way God deals with their cases in judgment varies depending on factors that make sense to God.
Anyone who refuses to accept Jesus as their personal Saviour, or who refuses to crucify a known sin, is not in a saved state. We cannot say with certainty that this person or that person who dies before they understand the truth, or dies before they are able to accept Jesus, is lost or saved. Only God knows their eternal reward.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 01/02/06 03:33 PM
MM, again you make conclusory statements without any rational support.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It has been done! - 01/03/06 07:24 AM
Darius, Jesus said He will judge everyone justly and truthfully.
John
5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
5:23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
John
8:14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, [yet] my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
Romans
14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
2 Corinthians
5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.
5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 01/03/06 06:03 PM
MM, your quotes have no relevance to how infants are treated.
Posted By: Alpendave
Re: It has been done! - 01/04/06 07:15 AM
1 Peter 4:
[17] For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
[18] And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Matthew 24:
[13] But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mark 16:
[16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Acts 2:
[21] And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 9:
[27] Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: (I think the word "remnant" and "all" are opposites).
and
[25] As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
[26] And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. (Creation does not make one one of God's people.)
If Jesus is going to save everyone from their sins, then there is no way for "wickedness to abound" and the "love of many [to] wax cold."
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It has been done! - 01/03/06 08:00 PM
Darius, infants are people, they're human same as you and me. And Jesus will execute righteous judgment, which means, He will do the right thing in the cases of all human beings - including infants. The quotes I posted above apply to infants, therefore, they are relevant so far as infants are concerned. Jesus will save all who are counted worthy of salvation and eternal life.
2 Thessalonians
1:5 [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power:
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 01/03/06 11:15 PM
If we are born lost then all infants are born lost and must go to hell as long as they are considered to be infants. This would mean that EGW was wrong to suggest that infants will be in the kingdom. We can't have it both ways. It is more likely that we are born safe until we choose to opt out of the kingdom of God.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It has been done! - 01/04/06 02:35 AM
Darius, Jesus made it clear that we must be born again to enter the kingdom of God. Obviously, in the case of infants who die, who did not and could not choose to be born again, Jesus has knowledge not available to us that He relies on to determine which infants will go to heaven.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 01/04/06 03:09 AM
MM, if you believe that Jesus will make decisions about infants based on information that others do not have and cannot verify, why do you also believe that the reason He did not destroy the devil and his angels was because He had to provide just that kind of information to the unfallen worlds. You can't have your cake and eat it.
Posted By: D R
Re: It has been done! - 01/04/06 07:03 AM
Is there not a text that deals with the parental responsibility of raising a Child in the ways of the Lord, and if the Child dies then there is accountability placed from the Parents rearing??? Is this Biblical, SDA, Catholic, a dream I had (not prophetic of course
But seriously what does scripture state on this?? and if it does'nt cover this, then SO WHAT! Jesus is JUST and TRUE, just as MM has stated throughout his posts! Darius, take a chill pill budy, your a little anxious with your posts lately. Why is it that we try to put the will of Jesus in a box and rationalize everything???
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 01/04/06 03:35 PM
Snowman, you should ask yourself why you would never advise me to take a chill pill if I had been trumpeting one of your pet theories. Unbelievable. Do you ask the preachers who keep telling people how sinful they are to take a chill pill? Check yourself, my dear brother/sister.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It has been done! - 01/04/06 06:37 PM
Snowman, check out these Bible and SOP quotes:
CG 561-566
When God Asks, "Where Are the Children?"-- Parents who have neglected their God-given responsibilities must meet that neglect in the judgment. The Lord will then inquire, "Where are the children that I gave you to train for Me? Why are they not at My right hand?" Many parents will then see that unwise love blinded their eyes to their children's faults and left those children to develop deformed characters unfit for heaven. Others will see that they did not give their children time and attention, love and tenderness; their own neglect of duty made the children what they are. {CG 561.1}
Parents, if you lose your opportunity, God pity you; for in the day of judgment God will say, "What have you done with My flock, My beautiful flock?". . . {CG 561.2}
Suppose you should get to heaven and none of your children be there. How could you say to God, "Here am I, Lord, and the children which Thou hast given me"? Heaven marks the neglect of parents. It is recorded in the books of heaven. {CG 561.3}
Families Will Pass in Review Before God.--When parents and children meet at the final reckoning, what a scene will be presented! Thousands of children who have been slaves to appetite and debasing vice, whose lives are moral wrecks, will stand face to face with the parents who made them what they are. Who but the parents must bear this fearful responsibility? Did the Lord make these youth corrupt? Oh, no! He made them in His image, a little lower than the angels. Who, then, has done the fearful work of forming the life character? Who changed their characters so that they do not bear the impress of God and must be forever separated from His presence as too impure to have any place with the pure angels in a holy heaven? Were the sins of the parents transmitted to the children in perverted appetites and passions? And was the work completed by the pleasure-loving mother in neglecting to properly train them according to the pattern given her? All these mothers will pass in review before God just as surely as they exist. {CG 561.4}
In Heaven Is a Pictorial Record.--Let parents and children remember that day by day they are each forming a character, and that the features of this character are imprinted upon the books of heaven. God is taking pictures of His people, just as surely as an artist takes pictures of men and women, transferring the features of the face to the polished plate. What kind of picture do you wish to produce? Parents, answer the question! What kind of picture will the great Master Artist make of you in the records of heaven? . . . We must decide this now. Hereafter, when death shall come, there will be no time to straighten the crooked places in the character. {CG 562.1}
To us individually this should be a most important matter. Every day our likeness is being taken for time and for eternity. Let each one say, "I am having my likeness taken today." Ask yourself daily, hourly, "How will my words sound to the heavenly angels? Are they as apples of gold in pictures of silver, or are they like a blasting hail, wounding and bruising?" . . . {CG 562.2}
Not only our words and actions, but our thoughts, make up the picture of what we are. Then let every soul be good and do good. Let the picture made of you be one of which you will not be ashamed. Every feeling we cherish makes its impress upon the countenance. God help us to make our record in our families what we would wish it to be in the heavenly record. {CG 563.1}
Have You Been Careless?--Oh, that parents would look prayerfully and carefully after their children's eternal welfare! Let them ask themselves, Have we been careless? Have we neglected this solemn work? Have we allowed our children to become the sport of Satan's temptations? Have we not a solemn account to settle with God because we have permitted our children to use their talents, their time and influence, in working against the truth, against Christ? Have we not neglected our duty as parents and increased the number of the subjects of Satan's kingdom? {CG 563.2}
If mothers neglect to properly educate their children, their neglect is reflected back upon them again, making their burdens and perplexities harder than they would have been if they had devoted time and patient care in training their children to obedience and submission. It will pay in the end for mothers to make the formation of the characters of their children their first and highest consideration, that the thorns may not take root and yield an abundant harvest. {CG 563.3}
Children Will Condemn Unfaithful Parents.--The curse of God will surely rest upon unfaithful parents. Not only are they planting thorns which will wound them here, but they must meet their own unfaithfulness when the judgment shall sit. Many children will rise up in judgment and condemn their parents for not restraining them and charge upon them their destruction. The false sympathy and blind love of parents cause them to excuse the faults of their children and pass them by without correction, and their children are lost in consequence, and the blood of their souls will rest upon the unfaithful parents. {CG 563.4}
Children Will Pay Tribute to Faithful Parents.-- When the judgment shall sit, and the books shall be opened; when the "well done" of the great Judge is pronounced, and the crown of immortal glory is placed upon the brow of the victor, many will raise their crowns in sight of the assembled universe and, pointing to their mother, say, "She made me all I am through the grace of God. Her instruction, her prayers, have been blessed to my eternal salvation." {CG 564.1}
Results of Faithful Training Will Be Manifest.-- All who have wrought with unselfish spirit will behold the fruit of their labors. The outworking of every right principle and noble deed will be seen. Something of this we see here. But how little of the result of the world's noblest work is in this life manifest to the doer! How many toil unselfishly and unweariedly for those who pass beyond their reach and knowledge! Parents and teachers lie down in their last sleep, their lifework seeming to have been wrought in vain; they know not that their faithfulness has unsealed springs of blessing that can never cease to flow; only by faith they see the children they have trained become a benediction and an inspiration to their fellow men, and the influence repeat itself a thousandfold. . . . Men sow the seed from which, above their graves, others reap blessed harvests. They plant trees that others may eat the fruit. They are content here to know that they have set in motion agencies for good. In the hereafter the action and reaction of all these will be seen. {CG 564.2}
Parents May Bring Children With Them to Promised Land.--God has permitted light from His throne to shine all along the path of life. A pillar of cloud by day, a pillar of fire by night, is moving before us as before ancient Israel. It is the privilege of Christian parents today, as it was the privilege of God's people of old, to bring their children with them to the promised Land. {CG 565.1}
You want a household for God; you want your family for God. You want to take them up to the gates of the city and say, "Here am I, Lord, and the children that Thou hast given me." They may be men and women that have grown to manhood and womanhood, but they are your children all the same; and your educating, and your watchfulness over them have been blessed of God, till they stand as overcomers. Now you can say, "Here am I, Lord, and the children." {CG 565.2}
Broken Family Chains Will Be Relinked.--Jesus is coming, coming with clouds and great glory. A multitude of shining angels will attend Him. He will come to honor those who have loved Him and kept His commandments, and to take them to Himself. He has not forgotten them or His promise. There will be a relinking of the family chain. {CG 565.3}
Comfort for a Bereaved Mother.--You inquire in regard to your little one being saved. Christ's words are your answer: "Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not; for of such is the kingdom of God." Remember the prophecy, "Thus saith the Lord: A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rachel weeping for her children refused to be comforted. . . . Thus saith the Lord: Refrain thy voice from weeping and thine eyes from tears; for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the Lord; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy. And there is hope in thine end, saith the Lord, that thy children shall come
again to thine own border." {CG 565.4}
This promise is yours. You may be comforted and trust in the Lord. The Lord has often instructed me that many little ones are to be laid away before the time of trouble. We shall see our children again. We shall meet them and know them in the heavenly courts. Put your trust in the Lord, and be not afraid. {CG 566.1}
Children Will Be Borne to Mothers' Arms.--Oh, wonderful redemption! long talked of, long hoped for, contemplated with eager anticipation, but never fully understood. {CG 566.2}
The living righteous are changed "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye." At the voice of God they were glorified; now they are made immortal and with the risen saints are caught up to meet their Lord in the air. Angels "gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Little children are borne by holy angels to their mothers' arms. Friends long separated by death are united, nevermore to part, and with songs of gladness ascend together to the City of God. {CG 566.3}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It has been done! - 01/04/06 06:40 PM
Darius, the knowledge Jesus possesses now, knowledge that helps Him determine our eternal rewards, will be made manifest to all in judgment. Everyone, including the lost, will acknowledge the wisdom and justice of Jesus. Doubt and disbelief will never again rear its ugly head. Our future is bliss.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 01/04/06 06:44 PM
MM, ignorance is bliss.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It has been done! - 01/04/06 06:48 PM
Daius, if you took the time to read the quotes I posted above you, sir, are no longer ignorant of the truth.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 01/05/06 07:21 AM
MM, if the quotes are correct then infants are not born lost. Period.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It has been done! - 01/04/06 09:25 PM
Are you differentiating between infants and children? It would appear that Sister White does not make such critical distinctions.
CG 193-195
Early Childhood Is the Most Important Period.-- Too much importance cannot be placed on the early training of children. The lessons that the child learns during the first seven years of life have more to do with forming his character than all that it learns in future years. {CG 193.1}
From babyhood the character of the child is to be molded and fashioned in accordance with the divine plan. Virtues are to be instilled into his opening mind. {CG 193.2}
The parents' work must begin with the child in its infancy, that it may receive the right impress of character ere the world shall place its stamp on mind and heart. {CG 193.3}
The Most Susceptible Age.--It is during the first years of a child's life that his mind is most susceptible to impressions either good or evil. During these years decided progress is made in either a right direction or a wrong one. On one hand, much worthless information may be gained; on the other, much solid, valuable knowledge. The strength of intellect, the substantial knowledge, are possessions which the gold of Ophir could not buy. Their price is above gold or silver. {CG 193.4}
First Impressions Are Seldom Forgotten.--Neither infants, children, or youth should hear an impatient word from father, mother, or any member of the household; for they receive impressions very early in life, and what parents make them today, they will be tomorrow, and the next day, and the next. The first lessons impressed upon the child are seldom forgotten. . . . {CG 193.5}
The impressions made on the heart early in life are seen in after years. They may be buried, but they will seldom be obliterated. {CG 194.1}
The Foundation Is Laid in the First Three Years.-- Mothers, be sure that you properly discipline your children during the first three years of their lives. Do not allow them to form their wishes and desires. The mother must be mind for her child. The first three years is the time in which to bend the tiny twig. Mothers should understand the importance attaching to this period. It is then that the foundation is laid. {CG 194.2}
If these first lessons have been defective, as they very often are, for Christ's sake, for the sake of your children's future and eternal good, seek to repair the wrong you have done. If you have waited until your children were three years old to begin to teach them self-control and obedience, seek to do it now, even though it will be much harder. {CG 194.3}
Not So Difficult As Generally Supposed.--Much parental anxiety and grief might be saved if children were taught from their cradles that their wills were not to be made law, and their whims continually indulged. It is not so difficult as is generally supposed to teach the little child to stifle its outburst of temper and subdue its fits of passion. {CG 194.4}
Do Not Postpone This Work.--Many neglect their duty during the first years of their children's lives, thinking that when they get older, they will then be very careful to repress wrong and educate them in the right. But the very time for them to do this work is when the children are babes in their arms. It is not right for parents to pet and humor their children; neither is it right for them to abuse them. A firm, decided, straightforward course of action will be productive of the best results. {CG 194.5}
When I have called attention of parents to the wrong habits which they were encouraging in their very young children, some parents have appeared entirely indifferent; others have said with a smile, "Little darlings! I cannot bear to cross them in any way. They will do better when they get older. They will then be ashamed of these passionate outbursts. It is not best to be too particular and strict with the little ones. They will outgrow these habits of telling lies and deceiving and being indolent and selfish." A very easy way indeed for mothers to dispose of the matter, but this does not meet the will of God. {CG 195.1}
Thwart Satan's Effort to Claim Infant Children.-- Parents, you fail generally to begin your work early enough. You let Satan preoccupy the soil of the heart by putting in the first crop of seed. {CG 195.2}
You have a work to do that Satan shall not gain the control of your children and take them away from you before they are out of your arms. Mothers, you should see to it that the powers of darkness do not control your little ones. You should set your will that the enemy shall not raise his banner of darkness in your home. {CG 195.3}
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 01/04/06 09:37 PM
You are drifting. This is about your claim that we are born lost. If we are born lost then it would be a violation of law for us to be treated as if we were not lost. God is not a lawbreaker. I don't care whether you call them infants or children.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It has been done! - 01/04/06 09:45 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man:
Darius, Jesus made it clear that we must be born again to enter the kingdom of God. Obviously, in the case of infants who die, who did not and could not choose to be born again, Jesus has knowledge not available to us that He relies on to determine which infants will go to heaven.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 01/04/06 10:45 PM
There is no need to go around the circle twice. I shall proceed in forward motion.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It has been done! - 01/05/06 04:53 AM
God handles the cases of some souls in unique ways.
EW 276
I saw that the slave master [SEE APPENDIX.] will have to answer for the soul of his slave whom he has kept in ignorance; and the sins of the slave will be visited upon the master. God cannot take to heaven the slave who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and holding a lower position than the brutes. But He does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He permits him to be as if he had not been, while the master must endure the seven last plagues and then come up in the second resurrection and suffer the second, most awful death. Then the justice of God will be satisfied. {EW 276.1}
EW 286
Then commenced the jubilee, when the land should rest. I saw the pious slave rise in victory and triumph, and shake off the chains that bound him, while his wicked master was in confusion and knew not what to do; for the wicked could not understand the words of the voice of God. {EW 286.1}
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 01/05/06 04:11 PM
I prefer not to associate myself with racist comments. Here endeth the lesson.
quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
I prefer not to associate myself with racist comments. Here endeth the lesson.
huh? what was racist about what Mountain Man said? It was a quote about what God would do to those who were kept ignorant of God by their masters. It didn't specifically say "African-American" slaves, but slaves in general. That could also be interpreted to mean slaves mentioned in the Bible. Those who were not told of God nor allowed to worship Him. Please, Darius, tell me what was racist about what Mountain Man quoted? He was showing that God has unique ways to deal with special circumstances. Unless I misinterpreted what you were saying......
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It has been done! - 01/06/06 07:54 AM
That's right, Stephanie. God is not limited to one way of handling the judgment of mankind. The point is, in light of the preceeding discussion concerning infants, God will be able save some infants, in spite of the fact we are born lost, based on knowledge we may not understand now but we will when God explains it to us in heaven.
More specifically, we will also understand why the rest of the infants were not awarded eternal life. Which, given the light regarding certain slaves, I suspect unsaved infants will be treated as if they had never existed, that is, they will not suffer in the lake of fire with the rest of the unsaved sinners.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 01/06/06 07:55 AM
Believe whatever you wish.
Ok, then, Darius, I choose to BELIEVE that you misread or misunderstood the EGW quote......
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 01/06/06 08:03 PM
I don't judge a statement by who said it but by it's contents. I do the same when I read Jesus' comments that one can get eternal life by selling all one has. I can say that is false.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It has been done! - 01/06/06 08:14 PM
And I would say your interpretation of what Jesus meant is false. "Let God be true, but every man a liar."
quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
I don't judge a statement by who said it but by it's contents.
Ok, then, please, tell us what you found to be racist in the quote? I don't see it. however, if you would be willing to point it out to me, I would be willing to re-read it.
This is what I read in the quote (paraphrase). A slave owner will have to answer for the sins of those he "owned" because he kept them ignorant of God. If the slave only knows fear, not love, God cannot take him to Heaven because, there, he wouldn't serve God out of love, but fear of punishment. The most compassionate thing God could do for this person is let it be as if he had not been born. He would not partake in the first resurrection because he would know nothing of God and his love. He would not partake in the 2nd because he was not allowed to learn of God and his love, so, the "master" would take on the sins of the slave.
Now, how is that racist?
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 01/06/06 10:48 PM
Steph, what happens to the slave-owner who was ignorant of God?
Good question, Darius. I will admit that I DO NOT KNOW what will happen to the owner who is ignorant of God. Perhaps the same will happen to him, as would happen to the slave. I really don't know. I know as much about that as I do about what will happen to the baby I conceived and miscarried. God knows what is the right course for each situation. Either I will one day hold that baby or it will be as if the child never was.
Now, my question to you is, and please don't take offense, are you implying that there may be a double standard? Because, if so, I would have to ask, why is the owner ignorant of God? Is it because no one brought the message to him? Or because he rejected it?
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 01/07/06 12:47 AM
Thanks for your honest and direct response.
I am saying that the statement ahout the slave was driven by popular sentiment. There is no reason why any portion of Adam would be treated as if it did not exist. We will all be judged on the basis of what we know, not on the basis of what we did not know. That is the teaching of the divine.
Posted By: D R
Re: It has been done! - 01/07/06 05:05 AM
Thanks MM for the RELEVENT and inspirational quotes on parenting!
-Darius, you continue to be hyper sensative. I was just stating earlier with the "take a chill pill" statement as being just an observation that you are posting what appears to be very tense statements. It almost feels like the "Borg" are in control, and we are to assimilate , that "resistence is futile"... anyway, I will not question or allude to your postings as being tense, or in other judgemental terms again (sorry).
-We will also be judged on what we could have known, but that we through freedom of choice, openly decided against learning further truths...(is this not true? )
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It has been done! - 01/07/06 06:25 AM
Yes, snowman. Here's a quote:
DA 489, 490
The True Witness says, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock." Rev. 3:20. Every warning, reproof, and entreaty in the word of God or through His messengers is a knock at the door of the heart. It is the voice of Jesus asking for entrance. With every knock unheeded, the disposition to open becomes weaker. The impressions of the Holy Spirit if disregarded today, will not be as strong tomorrow. The heart becomes less impressible, and lapses into a perilous unconsciousness of the shortness of life, and of the great eternity beyond. Our condemnation in the judgment will not result from the fact that we have been in error, but from the fact that we have neglected heaven-sent opportunities for learning what is truth. {DA 489.5}
Posted By: D R
Re: It has been done! - 01/07/06 07:02 AM
It would seem that as "we" would continue to disregard "His" knocking, then we desensitize from His voice!
Posted By: Angie Street
Re: It has been done! - 02/05/06 12:59 AM
Posted By: Gerry Buck
Re: It has been done! - 02/20/06 06:12 AM
I think this quote from Eze. might help in a better understanding of some of this goings on,
33:7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
33:8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked [man], thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
33:9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
33:10 Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins [be] upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?
33:11 Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his [righteousness] in the day that he sinneth.
33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, [that] he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
33:14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
33:15 [If] the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
33:16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
33:17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
33:19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
33:20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.
Salvation is not a guarantee, it can be lost, just as wickedness is not a guarantee of destructionm if repented, you are forgiven and will be saved.
Semantics shemantics, it is plain here, and answers the question first posted.
Yes, the Word of God came and saved the "whole" world.
It is there, free to all, but will all live?
Jesus said no, the wicked that does not repent of his sin WILL die.
As to the rest of the posts by Darius, I must agree with others, he has stedfastly refused to answer a direct question with a direct answer.
How about it?
Where exactly do you stand on this topic?
If you won't answer, maybe you should go where they appreciate banality and subtrefuge.
Darryl, I appoligize for this tone of the last of this post, feel free to edit as you see fit.
![[Rose of Many Colours]](graemlins/rose.gif)
Posted By: D R
Re: It has been done! - 02/21/06 06:35 AM
Amen Gerry, thank God for His free gift, we make the choice to accept it or not, and He will judge if we truly are accepting His gift!
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 02/21/06 04:10 PM
Relax Gerry. I respect your right to be wrong.
I gotta ask, Darius,
What was wrong about what my dad said? hmmmm??????
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 02/21/06 11:01 PM
Steph, try this: "As to the rest of the posts by Darius, I must agree with others, he has stedfastly refused to answer a direct question with a direct answer."
Posted By: asygo
Re: It has been done! - 02/21/06 11:27 PM
I agree with Bro Darius that this is an unconditional guarantee of salvation. For this verse, I prefer the KJV rendering of "He shall save..." It shows that Jesus shall save, and there's nothing anybody can do about it.
But I'm not so sure about the interpretation of who constitutes "His people" in the verse. In a sense, all creatures are included. But God has set a precedent of limiting the scope of His promises to those who are called by His name, and then putting conditions on top of that. The meaning of the phrase may change.
In this case, the verse itself defines who "His people" are that it's talking about. They are those who are saved "from their sins."
God's promise will come to pass, and His people shall be saved from their sins.
quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
Steph, try this: "As to the rest of the posts by Darius, I must agree with others, he has stedfastly refused to answer a direct question with a direct answer."
He is NOT wrong about it. Everyone asked you what you believe about it and why. We have told our position on the verse and why we believe what we believe. You still did not tell what you believe. that is the point Dad was trying to make. He's not wrong. You continually try to move away from what you believe. Why? What is wrong with telling us your own thoughts? For that matter, what is wrong with backing our beliefs with other verses from Scripture (which is what Dad did)?
Arnold,
I do not question whether or not the gift of salvation is given to all freely. What I wonder is how many people are believing that they will be saved whether they accept the gift offered by the Savior. THAT is what I have a problem with. Not everyone WILL be saved. Everyone has the gift given freely. It is not taken away. But what happens to a gift not accepted? How about a gift never used?
The thing is, this whole thread keeps going in circles because, apparently, no one has come up with the answer Darius desires.
Posted By: asygo
Re: It has been done! - 02/22/06 02:54 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Stephanie Suranyi:
What I wonder is how many people are believing that they will be saved whether they accept the gift offered by the Savior.
Sis Steph,
Perhaps we need to be more precise in our definitions.
"Saved" can mean many things. You can be saved from a car wreck, a burning building, a financial mistake, etc. What I've seen over the years is that people are generally most concerned about being saved from the Lake of Fire. Essentially, it's a matter of saving their necks.
Matthew 1:21 offers salvation, but it is not talking about the Lake of Fire. It offers salvation from our sins.
Will I be saved from my sins if I refuse to accept the gift of salvation from my sins? That's right out of the policy manual for the Department of Redundancy Department. Since I cannot save myself from my own sins, if I refuse the gift from an outside source, I will never have it.
Will I be saved from the Lake of Fire and live forever if I refuse to accept the gift of salvation from my sins? The answer is a question: Why would I want to suffer in sin forever? If that's what God is offering, I don't want it. I'd rather have the respite of non-existence.
Mercifully and lovingly, that's what God does promise to those who refuse to accept the gift of salvation from their sins. But that truth is found in other verses.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 02/23/06 07:46 AM
Steph, that is because no one seems to want to accept what the text says. Jesus came to save his people. He did not come to save people so they could become His people. They were his people before they were saved. Your conclusions that not everyone will be saved disregards the rest of Scripture. If seems to be supported by the NT. The problem is that using that analysis we hvae to say that Nineveh was to be destroyed in 40 days. We know that it was not even though the prophet said it would. Hence, we should ask ourselves why the NT gives the impression than not all will be saved instead of using the NT to discount God's clear statement that He saved everybody.
Posted By: Will
Re: It has been done! - 02/23/06 01:10 AM
Darius,
Let me know if I am understanding what you are saying.
Salvation is available to all, and God gave His only begotten Son to save us, so basically all are saved?
If that is the case then with salvation available to all, only some people will choose to accept it?
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 02/23/06 04:51 PM
Will, that is not what I am saying nor is it what reality indicates. You should find it interesting that the one essential piece of information that is omitted in any discussion of salvation is why did the human race need to be saved. Adam and Eve did not ask to be saved, so on what authority did YHWH decide to save them. Salvation must be understood in that context. We either rebelled and joined the ranks of Lucifer which would make us ineligible for salvation or we were captured by Lucifer in which case we would need to play no part in our salvation unless we could escape on our own. Think of it this way. It would be unethical for a firefighter to refuse to rescue a victim from a burning fire because the individual was unable to accept the rescue.
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It has been done! - 02/25/06 08:34 AM
Darius,
This seems like a false dichotomy. Who says those are the only choices? Eve may have been deceived, but she disobeyed. She was enticed to disobey, but she chose to disobey God. That is rebellion. Same with Adam, same with me, same with you. If we continue to disobey, that is continued rebellion.
Also, I hope you don’t mind if I revisit an early part of the conversation since I missed it. Earlier you said this:
Quote: posted by Darius| If we are born lost then all infants are born lost and must go to hell as long as they are considered to be infants. This would mean that EGW was wrong to suggest that infants will be in the kingdom. We can't have it both ways. It is more likely that we are born safe until we choose to opt out of the kingdom of God. |
If it is logical that if infants are born lost they must go to hell, (notwithstanding the truth about what “hell” is) where does that leave the Cross and Jesus’ right to apply his righteousness to whomever He will? To say what you’re saying it seems that your version of “saved” infants would not need the blood of Christ. Now if you are saying that Christ’s blood covers all, so all people are saved, that’s not true either (John 3:16).
Jeff
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 02/26/06 05:10 AM
Jeff, deceptions eliminates rebellion. It's as simple as that but you are free to deny it.
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It has been done! - 02/26/06 06:08 AM
Darius,
Eve disobeyed. God told her not to eat that fruit. It doesn’t matter how good the serpent said the fruit was, or what great benefit the serpent said eating the fruit would give her…even if all that were true, God said don’t eat it. The serpent deceived her with delusions of grandure. So what? That does not absolve Eve from responsibility. All she had to do regardless of what the serpent said was to obey God’s word. She could have told the serpent, “yeah, that sounds wonderful and all, but God said no, so I have to say no. See ya.”
Instead Eve did what SHE wanted to do. THAT’s rebellion regardless of deception. It is as simple as that but you are free to deny it.
Jeff
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 02/26/06 03:43 PM
Jeff, you seem to know much better than God does. That's fine.
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It has been done! - 02/26/06 06:00 PM
Quote: posted by DariusJeff, you seem to know much better than God does. That's fine.
|
I don’t see wherein I have suggested any such thing. Can you engage people directly, openly, rather than this way? If you think what I’ve said is wrong, state your case against it. Merely claiming that I’ve set my viewpoint against God’s surely does nothing to establish that as fact. Rather it just makes you seem aloof.
Jeff
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 02/26/06 06:11 PM
Jeff, don't feign ignorance now. The story clearly shows the woman was deceived. It also shows in God's response. Further, Paul adds that the woman was deceived. In the face of all this you insist that she rebelled. How else should I react. You have chosen to accept the view of your favorite theologians over the facts.
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It has been done! - 02/27/06 07:44 AM
Darius, I have no favorite theologians. I do not deny nor have I denied that Eve was deceived. I have maintained that she was indeed deceived. What I am saying is that she still participated in rebellion even though she was deceived. She HAD a choice. Regardless of how enticing the serpent made the fruit sound, she could have obeyed God instead. She didn’t. Eve did what EVE wanted to do. Adam was not deceived. He could have obeyed God also, he didn’t. How do you absolve Adam?
That deception in itself absolves rebellion is false, for the very cause for which Eve was deceived was mired in rebellion. Eve found what the serpent said about the fruit appealing, that she wanted to be exalted, like God. The serpent made Eve think this was possible through eating the fruit. That was the deciption, but the attitude that Eve demonstrated was rebellious. Eve’s sin was not in being deceived, though being deceived led her to sin. Her sin was in disobeying God. Eve knew the truth—what God told her—and disregarded it for what SHE found appealing in the words of the serpent. Those are the facts.
Apart from this side discussion about deception vs rebellion, I am still trying to figure out what you’re really saying in this thread. Can you just come out and say it so the conversation can be about that?
Jeff
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 02/26/06 09:42 PM
Jeff, you are mouthing the word but meaning something different. That presents many problems. My OP was clear so it is difficult to understand how you could ask me to say what I want to say.
Posted By: Tom
Re: It has been done! - 02/26/06 10:47 PM
quote:
This seems like a false dichotomy. Who says those are the only choices? Eve may have been deceived, but she disobeyed. She was enticed to disobey, but she chose to disobey God. That is rebellion. Same with Adam, same with me, same with you. If we continue to disobey, that is continued rebellion.
The deception was the key item. Eve was deceived as to God's character. The serpent said that God did not want them to eat of the forbidden fruit because their eyes would be opened, and they would be like gods. In other words, God did not have her best interests in heart. It was only when Eve believed the lie about God's character that rebellion began.
quote:
But even as a sinner, man was in a different position from that of Satan. Lucifer in heaven had sinned in the light of God's glory. To him as to no other created being was given a revelation of God's love. Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God.(DA 761, 762)
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 02/27/06 03:13 PM
If the human race had rebelled there could have been no plan of salvation for it. This is why there is no plan of salvation for Lucifer. Don't you guys see how you are introducing confusion into the gospel?
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It has been done! - 02/27/06 04:40 PM
Even if Eve wasnt rebelling in disobeying God, that doesnt make our present situation different since irrespective of what someone else did, we are still guilty of sin. Only by Gods grace do any of us have hope of life beyond the purge of sin.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 02/28/06 04:07 PM
This is where the church has ignored God. God does not view the race as individuals. As in Adam so in Christ. It is amazing how much effort we make to ignore this clear statement.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 02/28/06 04:09 PM
Tom, it is theological mumbo-jumbo that Eve believed a lie about God's character. Those who say so have not read the story. From the beginning Eve defended God's character. Discard the theological commentary and read Gen. 3 afresh. You will also note that the serpent told no lies.
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It has been done! - 02/28/06 04:25 PM
Quote: posted by Darius| You will also note that the serpent told no lies. |
Darius, please explain how the serpent told no lies AND YET deceived Eve.
Jeff
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 02/28/06 04:54 PM
Misdirection is more effective than lies. Moses was not joking when he said that the serpent was more subtle. He actually got Eve to deceive herself. Self-deception is dangerous. Today we continue to witness it in the church.
So......when the serpent said, and I quote, "YOU WILL NOT DIE" he was misdirecting, not lying? How so?
And I am not basing this on "theological commentary"..........I read the words of Genesis 3 as they are written. Nothing else. The serpent started out with a half truth, to try to catch Eve, she replied with exactly what God told them. The serpent said "you will not die"......that's a lile. Sure, she was not struck down, dead right at that second...However, she DID start to die.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It has been done! - 02/28/06 09:20 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
This is where the church has ignored God. God does not view the race as individuals. As in Adam so in Christ. It is amazing how much effort we make to ignore this clear statement.
It is a clear statement you are making. However, is it true? It would be helpful if you would elaborate your point a bit and maybe even back your statement with scripture. There are times when God adresses individuals, when He adresses nations and some when He speaks to the enitre humanity. On what grounds do you disregard the first (and perhaps the secound) in favour for the third?
In an earlier post you wrote that participating in rebellion makes a person ineligible for salvation. If salvation means to have access to Gods throne, you would have been right if it had not been for grace. Unmerited forgiveness. Or perhaps pardon. Even humans forgive betrayal sometimes. Do you expect less from God? quote:
Romans 3 21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
quote:
Hebrews 4 14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It has been done! - 02/28/06 09:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
Misdirection is more effective than lies. Moses was not joking when he said that the serpent was more subtle. He actually got Eve to deceive herself. Self-deception is dangerous. Today we continue to witness it in the church.
Though self deception is indeed both dangerous and popular, the serpent/devil has a reputation as a liar.. quote:
John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 02/28/06 09:30 PM
Stephanie, your response implies that the serpent was working in collaboration with the Creator and knew that "thou shalt surely die," meant "You shall start to die." Surely you can't believe that, but it is the kind of argument that we will find in sermons that are aimed at presenting a doctrine instead of interpreting the text.
You also misstated the facts when you said that Eve replied with exactly what God had said. God had saidn nothing about not touching it. This addition by Eve further supports what the Bible clearly teaches; that God only spoke to Adam, then Eve got her account from Adam. Somehow Christians continue to disregard this part of the account.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 02/28/06 09:33 PM
Vaster, salvation is never an act of grace. John 3:16 is correct that it is an act of love. You should be concerned by the implication in your response that God would withhold grace from the being who used to be his covering cherub.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It has been done! - 02/28/06 09:58 PM
quote:
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
I find it less of a problem when I remember that to accept grace/amnesty, the rebell has to give up his arms and accept having done wrong. Thats why not every offer of grace is accepted. If someone is convinced they have done nothing wrong, that someone would be offended if given an offer of grace.
Isnt loving someone who has done nothing to deserve it and everything not to deserve it a definition of grace?
/Thomas
quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
Stephanie, your response implies that the serpent was working in collaboration with the Creator and knew that "thou shalt surely die," meant "You shall start to die." Surely you can't believe that, but it is the kind of argument that we will find in sermons that are aimed at presenting a doctrine instead of interpreting the text.
You also misstated the facts when you said that Eve replied with exactly what God had said. God had saidn nothing about not touching it. This addition by Eve further supports what the Bible clearly teaches; that God only spoke to Adam, then Eve got her account from Adam. Somehow Christians continue to disregard this part of the account.
How does my response imply that God and Satan (the serpent) were working together????????? It in NO way implies that! Now, when God told ADAM (since you corrected me) not to eat the fruit, do you believe the serpent was not there? Do you not think it POSSIBLE that he HEARD what God said?? True, Eve elaborated and said God told them neither to eat the fruit, nor to touch it.
Anyway, I think I am done with this thread. I am tired of the discussions going in circles.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 02/28/06 10:35 PM
Correction, Stephanie. You are tired of discussions that cannot be pulled to fit the doctrines you hold. I respect your right to pull out of the discussion, however. It is no accident that God spoke to Adam so that Lucifer could hear. He wanted him to hear.
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It has been done! - 02/28/06 11:01 PM
quote:
Misdirection is more effective than lies. Moses was not joking when he said that the serpent was more subtle. He actually got Eve to deceive herself. Self-deception is dangerous. Today we continue to witness it in the church.
Misdirection IS a lie. You can make a true statement but present it in a way to cause someone to believe something different from the truth. That’s still a lie. But still, Satan overtly lied. He said, “You will not die.” Eve is no longer among the breathing. She’s dead.
Darius, several times in this thread you imply that others are following after theologians and not interpreting just what the text says. This happens whenever someone else’s interpretation happens to disagree with yours. It’s not very productive.
quote:
You also misstated the facts when you said that Eve replied with exactly what God had said. God had saidn nothing about not touching it. This addition by Eve further supports what the Bible clearly teaches; that God only spoke to Adam, then Eve got her account from Adam. Somehow Christians continue to disregard this part of the account.
Do you discount the SOP? The Biblical account does not attempt to account for every minute of Eve’s journey from obedience to disobedience. In fact it matters not to Stephanie’s point if Eve heard God’s command directly or from Adam, or if Eve even added a condition (touch).
quote:
Correction, Stephanie. You are tired of discussions that cannot be pulled to fit the doctrines you hold.
At face value this is an incredibly arrogant statement. Is there an explanation you can give that might mitigate the seeming arrogance? May I ask what held doctrines can’t be pulled to fit? I’m still not sure exactly which heresy you’re trying to squash.
Jeff
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/01/06 01:34 AM
Jeff, you are arguing from hindsight. When the serpent spoke he had evidence that he had not died. Your reference to the future demise of Eve does what Stephanie did; assume that the serpent was working in cooperation with the Creator. I don't think you believe that so you should be careful of an argument that assumes the same.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/01/06 01:35 AM
It is a huge step from filling in the gaps in the biblical record to totally ignoring clear statements that are in the record.
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It has been done! - 03/01/06 03:19 AM
Darius,
It’s not hindsight. I am not assuming that the serpent was working in cooperation with the Creator. Rather, I am assuming that the serpent was working in cooperation with the deceiver, Satan. Isn’t that a bit easier to believe of me than the assumption you made? It’s a much more natural thing to assume, you know.
The deceiver lied. He told Eve she would not die. The serpent did not say those words because he extrapolated it from his own experience. The serpent said it to deceive Eve. Do you think that “you will not surely die” was the truth? You did, after all, say that the serpent didn’t lie.
Also, no one ignored clear statements that are in the record. Instead you assumed that since others interpretations differed from yours that it must be for that reason.
I'm still wondering what great heresy you're trying to squash.
Jeff
Posted By: Tom
Re: It has been done! - 03/01/06 03:41 AM
quote:
You should be concerned by the implication in your response that God would withhold grace from the being who used to be his covering cherub.
I missed this implication.
Posted By: D R
Re: It has been done! - 03/01/06 06:50 AM
Stephanie and Jeff your statements are clear and in my understanding correct. Darius who gave you "all knowledge" to be able to state that those that do not agree with YOU are WRONG??? Man chill the theological philosophical angle and look at this in the way God instructed us! Through prayer, and peace, we see the character of God NOT working with Satan, nor working to colaborate with him! To say that God spoke out loud to Adam, so that Satan could hear is just plain WHACKED ( for lack of a better word! ) Eve knew in her heart of hearts that to touch the fruit of the tree was FORBIDDDDDEN! Yes she was deceived, not forced, she used her free choice and chose against truth and against God. BUT God in His love and mercy prepared a way for us SINNERS and that is through the GIFT of His son's sacrifice!... NO Way this is a conspiracy between Satan and God!
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/01/06 03:54 PM
Snowman, consider the implications of what you say beyond whether it fits your ideas. If God did not speak aloud to Adam how did the serpent know that a prohibition had been given?
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/01/06 03:58 PM
The problem is that you guys are only attempting so buttress what you believe instead of studying what the text says. This is why you can't see the implications of what you are saying. How does knowing the private communication between the Creator and Adam indicate that the serpent was working with the deceiver? Please explain, Tom.
BTW, the great heresy is the belief that Adam and Eve rebelled against the Creator in the Garden. That belief gives to the enemy rights the Creator has denied. I think we should strive to be on the Creator's side.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/01/06 04:01 PM
Tom, you are still arguing from hindsight. Go back to the discussion between the serpent and Eve. The serpent had not only eaten a fruit; he had engaged in open warfare with the Creator. But he had not died. He was still alive and well. He did not even feel sick. He is still alive. From his perspective death did not follow. You are giving the impression that he understood the process of death, which would put him in cahoots with the Creator. Think this through.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/01/06 04:31 PM
I find it intriguing that many here have no problem telling the rest of Christendom they are wrong theologically but are up in arms when it is suggested that they themselves are also wrong theologically. Why is that? Shouldn't we all have an interest in approaching truth instead of merely defending our positions?
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It has been done! - 03/01/06 05:28 PM
Quote: posted by Darius| Tom, you are still arguing from hindsight. |
Um, Darius, do you mean Jeff? It was Jeff with whom you were having the “hindsight” discussion.
Quote: posted by Darius
| Go back to the discussion between the serpent and Eve. The serpent had not only eaten a fruit; he had engaged in open warfare with the Creator. But he had not died. He was still alive and well. He did not even feel sick. He is still alive. From his perspective death did not follow. You are giving the impression that he understood the process of death, which would put him in cahoots with the Creator. Think this through. |
Darius,
Can you please cite where in the scripture record it says the serpent ate the fruit?
BTW, for all practical purposes, the serpent was Satan. Satan was not naïve to what he was telling Eve. According to this latest tack you’ve taken, I find it difficult to see in it a possibility that the serpent deceived anyone. After all, the serpent was just relating his own experience, eh?
Jeff
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/01/06 06:47 PM
Jeff, Satan's goal was to claim earth as his. He wanted to be like the Most High, with territory and subjects. The Woman saw straight through the lie that was implicit in the question he first asked her. But, he never asked her to eat the fruit. The text says "she saw it was good for food." The obvious message is that she saw the serpent eat it.
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It has been done! - 03/01/06 09:00 PM
Darius, the point is, you can’t justly chastise someone for inferring something from the text that it did not explicitly state, and then go on to infer something from text that it does not explicitly state.
This conversation has turned into an incredible exhibition of insignificant side digressions from the original topic. I would like for it to get back to something meaningful. Now, if the main topic is “everyone’s wrong and you’re right”, I think that is an unproductive use of your time and mine. However, if the discussion is now on the issue of whether or not Adam/Eve rebelled against the creator, that’s a worthy discussion. But let’s all pursue it in a spirit of humility. Agreed?
Jeff
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/01/06 10:10 PM
I can point out that what is inferred negates the rest of the story of salvation. God rules according to law. There can be no salvation of what is not yours. If the human race had rebelled there could have been no plan of salvation for then it would be unjust not extend that plan to Lucifer. The Creator must be just.
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It has been done! - 03/01/06 11:11 PM
Quote: posted by Darius| I can point out that what is inferred negates the rest of the story of salvation. God rules according to law. There can be no salvation of what is not yours. |
I’m not really sure what you mean by that.
Quote: posted by Darius
| If the human race had rebelled there could have been no plan of salvation for then it would be unjust not extend that plan to Lucifer. The Creator must be just. |
Why would the Creator be unjust if Satan is ineligible for salvation while humans are eligible? It’s not the rebellion that makes one eligible or not. It’s the circumstances that make the difference. Satan rebelled in the full light of God. Humans were ignorant in their rebellion. Satan was fully informed.
Jeff
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/01/06 11:59 PM
Where do you get the idea from that Satan was fully informed? If he had been he would have been immediately destroyed. Check the story and you will find that he actually did nothing wrong. He did not even start the war. Many misquote the Bible and claim that he wanted to be ABOVE the Most High. Sometimes I get the impression that more lies have been told about Lucifer than he has ever told.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/02/06 12:00 AM
Jeff, you can't rescue that which is not yours. A rebel cannot be rescued; he has to be conquered. It is interesting that Jesus was not sent on a mission of conquest.
Posted By: Tom
Re: It has been done! - 03/02/06 01:30 AM
Satan was fully informed.
quote:
But even as a sinner, man was in a different position from that of Satan. Lucifer in heaven had sinned in the light of God's glory. To him as to no other created being was given a revelation of God's love. Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God. (DA 761, 762)
God didn't allow Satan to immdiately suffer the inevitable result of sin because had He done so, what happened to Satan would have been misunderstood, and the differences between Satan and God's forms of government would not have been seen.
quote:
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. (that death was the inevitable result of sin -- my editing here) Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It has been done! - 03/02/06 02:30 AM
Quote: posted by Darius| Where do you get the idea from that Satan was fully informed? |
Did you not say yourself that Satan/Lucifer was once God’s covering cherub? Scripture speaks of Lucifer’s former position in God’s government. It is not a stretch of difficult means to infer from scripture that Satan had full knowledge of what he was doing when he rebelled. Add to that the light we get from SOP (as Tom has demonstrated) that states Lucerfer’s understanding of the matter, and we have a difficult time reconciling that with your statements.
Quote: posted by Darius
| If he had been he would have been immediately destroyed. |
This, on the other hand, is a much more difficult concept to prove. What makes your statement so?
Quote: posted by Darius
| Check the story and you will find that he actually did nothing wrong. He did not even start the war. |
Darius, are you now defending Satan? Saying that Satan did nothing wrong implies that it was God’s fault. To clarify your point, please tell who you believe is to blame for Eve eating the fruit? Is it Eve, the serpent, or God, or was it both Eve and the serpent, or Eve and God, or the serpent and God, or, perhaps were all three to blame?
Jeff
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/02/06 02:52 AM
quote:
God didn't allow Satan to immdiately suffer the inevitable result of sin because had He done so, what happened to Satan would have been misunderstood, and the differences between Satan and God's forms of government would not have been seen.
This explanation leads to more problems than it may possibly solve. First, Lucifer was publicly punished. Every celestial being understood that he had been banished. It is strange reasoning that the only negative act that would cause other beings to be concerned would be his death. God did not have to answer to anyone, anyway. I don't get this idea that somehow there is doubt in the minds of the angels about God. This explanation reduces God's stature. We should be embarassed to repeat it.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/02/06 02:56 AM
Jeff, something is wrong with the philosophy that one who is accused does not deserved to be treated fairly. Why would you suggest that I am defending Satan because I spoke the truth about what happened. I am also concerned about the dualistic thinking that assumes that to say that Lucifer did nothing wrong automatically blames God. However, the fact that Lucifer was not immediately destroyed is evidence that God did not blame him. I don't expect you to see this because you probably are as influenced with the vengeance thinking that is throughout Christianity. We just don't understand grace and love. Vengeance is what moves us. Sadly.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It has been done! - 03/02/06 03:03 AM
This new turn gives a literal definition to the phrase "devils advocate". Interesting.
Still, we know that all humans have sinned, and we know that sin leads to death, and we know that faith in Jesus Christ is the only thing that restores good relations with God Father. All of this can be found in the NT letters.
What is the practical application of the contents of this thread to our everyday lives?
/Thomas
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It has been done! - 03/02/06 03:10 AM
quote:
1 John 3: 7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
quote:
James 2: 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
quote:
Revelation 20 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Appears the idea of the devil facing some hard time in the just judgement of God isnt just taken out of thin air.
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It has been done! - 03/02/06 04:06 AM
First, it is not my part today to ensure that Satan gets a fair shake. I see dimly now, who am I to judge? But when face to face with God, I will see clearly to judge whether or not Satan got a fair shake.
I am asking if you are defending Satan, I am not assuming so. Your statements made it *seem* that 1) you are indeed defending Satan, and 2) that Satan’s innocence implies that God is to blame. Before I assume anything about what you believe, I am asking directly. So, again I ask 1) are you defending Satan, and 2) who is to blame for Eve eating the fruit. You can look at my previous post for the list of possibilities, except that I forgot to add none of the above. But if you choose the latter, please explain your reasoning.
Also, that God did not immediately destroy Lucifer does not prove that God holds him blameless. In fact, in the scripture record God does indeed blame the serpent, and by association, Satan.
Quote: from Gen 3:14-15 NASB | The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life; (15) And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel." |
Also, as Thomas cites, Satan has his comeuppance.
Jeff
Posted By: Tom
Re: It has been done! - 03/02/06 05:18 AM
quote:
First, Lucifer was publicly punished. Every celestial being understood that he had been banished. It is strange reasoning that the only negative act that would cause other beings to be concerned would be his death. God did not have to answer to anyone, anyway. I don't get this idea that somehow there is doubt in the minds of the angels about God. This explanation reduces God's stature. We should be embarassed to repeat it.
All of your comments here strike me as making God arbitrary. Both Jude and the Spirit of Prophecy state that Satan left his position at God's side. God didn't force him to leave. He left because he no longer wanted to be God's covering cherub.
It is strange reasoning to conclude that because I states that the angels would have misattributed Satan's death to God (instead of being the inevitable result of sin) to mean that this is the only negative act the angels would be concerned about. That was neither stated nor implies, and wasn't even a point being made.
It's not God has to answer to anyone, but God chooses to. He's like. He's humble (witness Him washing the feet of His betrayer). God wishes that we would worship him because we admire Him and the attributes of His character. We can only do this if we perceive His goodness, and we will only perceive His goodness if He reveals it, which requires time and opportunity. This in no way lessens God's stature, but raises it.
It was the cross which answered the questions:
quote:
To the angels and the unfallen worlds the cry, "It is finished," had a deep significance. It was for them as well as for us that the great work of redemption had been accomplished. They with us share the fruits of Christ's victory.
Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion. (DA 758)
Far from being ashamed to repeat this, this is one of the most wonderful things God has seen fit to reveal to man. The Great Controversy is a wonderful paradigm. No other places God in such a positive light.
Posted By: Tom
Re: It has been done! - 03/02/06 05:25 AM
quote:
However, the fact that Lucifer was not immediately destroyed is evidence that God did not blame him.
Only if you assume God destroys everyone worthy of blame. If that were the case, there wouldn't be anyone left, would there? As the psalmist says, "If Thou shouldst mark iniquity, who could stand?"
quote:
I don't expect you to see this because you probably are as influenced with the vengeance thinking that is throughout Christianity.
This is an interesting comment, since your previous quote seems to be motivated by the very thinking you are complaining about here.
quote:
We just don't understand grace and love. Vengeance is what moves us. Sadly.
I agree with this. Also that vengeance thinking is prevalent throughout Christianity.
Posted By: Tom
Re: It has been done! - 03/02/06 05:27 AM
quote:
Still, we know that all humans have sinned, and we know that sin leads to death, and we know that faith in Jesus Christ is the only thing that restores good relations with God Father. All of this can be found in the NT letters.
This is all true, but to clarify, the good relations which faith restores are because faith reconciles us to God. God is already reconciled to us.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: It has been done! - 03/02/06 05:57 AM
With what is being stated here by Darius, contrary to the Bible and the writings of EGW, I am surprised this topic is as active as it is.
I could close this topic, or everybody could stop posting in this topic and let this topic die its own death without me closing it.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/02/06 03:51 PM
Daryl, the truth is that what I have posted is fully supported by the biblical evidence. Absolutely.
Posted By: Will
Re: It has been done! - 03/02/06 05:09 PM
I dont know where the Bible supports Eve seeing the snake eating the fruit. Its not mentioned or implied.
What exactly did Jesus mean when He called satan a murderer and a liar from the beginning?
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/02/06 05:38 PM
The really sad fact is that so many Christians get their ideas of what the Bible teaches from Bible Studies rather than from what the Bible actually says. They know what their teachers say about the Bible but hardly anything of what the Bible itself says. This is truly tragic.
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It has been done! - 03/02/06 09:14 PM
Darius, that may be true for a lot of people but you can’t assume that when people disagree with you that they have necessarily done this.
Anyway, it seems that since your statements are “contrary to the Bible and the writings of EGW” as it were, and you have failed to support your views with actual scripture, we should respect Daryl’s suggestion that this thread should die. You can state that what you have posted is fully supported by the biblical evidence, but stating that it is absolutely so does not demonstrate it.
Jeff
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/02/06 09:48 PM
Jeff, there is a qualitative difference between those who study and those who cram. Sometimes we have to decide whether our concern is to be right or to eliminate error.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It has been done! - 03/02/06 11:43 PM
Darius
Whats to figure out is why taking your word for it would be any better than taking theologians, bible study, pastor, sermon etc.
Yours has been a weak argument, things you say are often so short that they can be understood in several different ways and follow up questions to clarify which of those you are trying to communicate have been replied to with comments questioning the intellectual integrity of the asker. You read one verse and build a case around it and when confronted with other verses that either variate or even show a clearly different point of view, such verses have usually not been commented upon.
Discussion is normally a two-way street but the impression given is that you are not communicating, you more appear to preach and then get frustrated when you have not been given the same confidence you claim we give to theologians, preachers, bible studies etc.
In other threads other people have sometimes presented new angles to understand sertain passages of the bible, much like what you have tried to do here. However, such threads normally include a thorough study pointing out weaknesses in the old view and giving reasons to why the alternative understanding is supperior and the defended their position to those who ask questions about it. If you had done likewise, it is not unlikely that this thread would have been both intersting and added to our understanding either in favour or against your new thoughts. What have appeared to be your strategy, giving hints and then being annoyed with us for not immediately picking up and fully understanding and agreeing with your hints.. Well, maybe there is some place where that is the normal way to conduct exchange of thoughts but for the majority of us who here who like to have ideas spelled out for us so we know what we are to considder, could you please try to do so?
/Thomas
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/03/06 01:34 AM
Vaster, I am not really here to teach anything. I am merely pointing out things that we have traditionally ignored. Relative to the Genesis story, most people ignore the fact that Moses was not writing stroke by stroke commentary. He was writing hundreds maybe thousands of years after the event. If the story had unfolded differently from what is clearly implied in the text why did Moses write it the way he did? We should not read the text and ignore the timing of Moses' record. Moses wrote the story the way it is because this is what he was to write. It is ludicrous to suggest that thousands of years later God decided to add details that change the story.
Posted By: Tom
Re: It has been done! - 03/03/06 02:17 AM
quote:
Discussion is normally a two-way street but the impression given is that you are not communicating...
It appears to me to be this way as well.
I don't mind ideas being presented which appear to be contrary to Scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy, because we should be able to defend the points of view that we hold. The truth has nothing to fear by investigation, so the holding of unusual positions, or the challenges to support a traditional point of view are fine, from my point of view.
However, the lack of two-way streetedness (to coin a phrase) is troublesome. I've asked specific questions, and most questions are just ignorned, and the ones which are answered are not often answered adequately. I suspect the others feel the same way.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: It has been done! - 03/03/06 03:33 AM
Been there done that Tom, on this and other forums. Same old same old. What goes around comes around.
Redfog
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/03/06 03:48 PM
Tom, it is interesting that you should raise a claim that your questions are not adequately addressed (an erroneous claim I might add) when those questions may very well be red-herrings designed to avoid addressing the issues in the OP. When someone asks me "So, do you question the authority of EGW on this matter?" I have not obligation to answer it in the context of a discussion like this. Ir is a carefully constructed smokescreen. I have answered every relevant question. How you deal with information that is clearly recorded in the Bible is up to you.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/03/06 04:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by västergötland:
In other threads other people have sometimes presented new angles to understand sertain passages of the bible, much like what you have tried to do here.
I beg to differ. The reason why we have so many different possibilities is because we have refused to apply commonsense to the biblical text. We have dispensed with any reliable method of interpretation. This means we can ignore facts we don't like and people will accept the conclusions as long as they like us or they agree with their own conclusions. That is confusion, aka Babylon.
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It has been done! - 03/03/06 04:27 PM
I think if anyone has the time, it would be interesting to tally the unanswered questions in this thread.
Darius, I guess you feel the majority of my questions were irrelevent?
Jeff
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/03/06 04:51 PM
No tally is needed. Just point to one.
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It has been done! - 03/03/06 05:53 PM
Darius,
Here’s one example:
quote:
Darius, are you now defending Satan? Saying that Satan did nothing wrong implies that it was God’s fault. To clarify your point, please tell who you believe is to blame for Eve eating the fruit? Is it Eve, the serpent, or God, or was it both Eve and the serpent, or Eve and God, or the serpent and God, or, perhaps were all three to blame?
Your “answer” was:
quote:
Jeff, something is wrong with the philosophy that one who is accused does not deserved to be treated fairly. Why would you suggest that I am defending Satan because I spoke the truth about what happened. I am also concerned about the dualistic thinking that assumes that to say that Lucifer did nothing wrong automatically blames God. However, the fact that Lucifer was not immediately destroyed is evidence that God did not blame him. I don't expect you to see this because you probably are as influenced with the vengeance thinking that is throughout Christianity. We just don't understand grace and love. Vengeance is what moves us. Sadly.
Your answer was ambiguous. I knew little more about your position after you answered it than before. From your answer I got the idea that you didn’t want to say that you were defending Satan, but you did not state that you weren’t. Also, the other question about who was to blame for eating the fruit went unanswered except that instead of knowing who you felt was to blame, you only told me that Lucifer was not to blame. So I asked more directly hoping to get a more direct answer:
quote:
I am asking if you are defending Satan, I am not assuming so. Your statements made it *seem* that 1) you are indeed defending Satan, and 2) that Satan’s innocence implies that God is to blame. Before I assume anything about what you believe, I am asking directly. So, again I ask 1) are you defending Satan, and 2) who is to blame for Eve eating the fruit.
These questions remain unanswered. Direct answers to the questions would take a similar form of:
I [am or am not] defending Satan and here’s why I say that…
I believe that [x] is to blame for Eve eating the fruit and here’s why I believe this…
Accusing me of “dualistic thinking” and being ”influenced with the vengeance thinking that is throughout Christianity” does not answer the questions I asked. But please, by all means, feel free to give direct answers now.
Jeff
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/03/06 06:07 PM
Jeff, you just proved my point. Instead of dealing with what I had argued you raised a red herring. The discussion was not centered on whether Satan was responsible or not but on what made the Plan of Salvation necessary. My analysis of the question showed that it would require an entire thread to decide whether Satan needed a defense before even considering whether I am in a position to defend him. The outcome of that discussion could never change the facts I had presented to you. The serpent did not lie when he said "you will be like god knowing good and evil." Instead of admitting to the truth of that fact you thought you could paint me with the label of "Satan lover." I refuse to dignify such a tactic.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It has been done! - 03/03/06 06:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
I beg to differ. The reason why we have so many different possibilities is because we have refused to apply commonsense to the biblical text. We have dispensed with any reliable method of interpretation. This means we can ignore facts we don't like and people will accept the conclusions as long as they like us or they agree with their own conclusions. That is confusion, aka Babylon.
Not only must we not ignore facts, we must consider all the facts. Also, this post together with your last post to Jeff illustrates my point that not enough communication has taken place in this thread.
In my previous post, I was not trying to identify how you view this thread, I was merely telling you how I (and apparently at least some others) find your posts in this thread. Overobvious is better than murky, to much information better than to scarse.
/Thomas
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/03/06 06:50 PM
But the information must be relevant and persuasive. Quoting to me what John says about X is not very persuasive on its face if there is a possibility that John may have misconstrued X. Here is a good example. Generally, everyone will agree that a rescue operation is an act of love. We rescue individuals because they deserve to be rescued by virtue of the fact that they are members of society. Yet, many have taken Paul's unfortunate choice of language to present rescue/salvation as an act of grace, claiming that the human race did not deserve to be saved but God did it anyhow. From this error they are forced to misinterpret the Genesis story so as to present the human race as being in rebellion.
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It has been done! - 03/04/06 07:01 AM
Darius, you just proved my point. Rather than directly answer questions about your position, you just accuse. There’s no “tactic”. I am just trying to understand what you’re really saying. I’m not trying to paint you as anything…you paint yourself by how you respond. I am, however, trying to pin you down on exactly what it is that you believe because at the moment, that’s pretty vague. It’s difficult to discuss ideas when we don’t really know exactly what the idea is. I’m not trying to be your adversary. Please stop acting as if this is so and you probably won’t feel that I am an adversary.
To answer my question, you would not have required an entire thread to determine if Satan needed defending, because that was not what I asked. It was a simple yes or no question. “Are you defending Satan?” Of course getting an explanation for the yes or no answer would just have been pudding but I didn’t even get the direct yes or no.
A any rate, I suppose I can infer from your most recent response that you don’t believe you were trying to defend Satan since you feel that it would take an entire thread to decide if Satan even needed a defense. So I’ll just take it that your answer is “no”, you’re not defending Satan.
But just as a correction, you did not earlier say that “the serpent did not lie when he said ‘you will be like god knowing good and evil’”. You just said the serpent told no lies, which includes that Eve would not surely die. Of course I refuse to admit that the serpent didn’t lie, but not for the reason you state. It’s because we know from the Biblical record and have confirmation in the SOP that the serpent did indeed lie to Eve, and God did indeed hold the serpent responsible.
Still the other question is unanswered. Who do you say is to blame for Eve eating the fruit? That’s an easy question to answer. You don’t need an entire thread to discuss it. It’s YOUR opinion. Just state it and be done with it. Knowing this will help me understand your position better on what made the plan of salvation necessary. Of course it would also help if you clearly stated what you think made the plan of salvation necessary. But if you feel you’ve answered this, could you point to the particular post where you made this clear?
Jeff
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It has been done! - 03/04/06 07:17 AM
Darius, I assume we can agree that Paul is a member of the set of Bible authors. We believe the Bible authors were inspired. If Paul, an inspired writer, erred in his exposition of grace, how then do you trust Moses? If Paul’s writings don’t coincide with your worldview, does that necessarily mean that Paul erred? Does that necessarily mean that people who don’t share your worldview are wrong? I’m sorry though that I keep asking questions, especially since experience has taught me in the last days that questions will only beget more ambiguity.
Jeff
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/04/06 07:32 AM
Jeff, I hope you can accept that what occurred could only have occurred if Eve had not heard it from God that she was not to eat of the tree. The serpent's first words were in the form of a question. "Has God said . . .?" In so doing he reveals why Moses wrote that he was clever. By simply asking that question he aligned himself with Eve. She had been informed by Adam and it is obvious that he also needed to be informed. But, she immediately saw the problem in what was inferred which negates the idea that she foolishly followed the serpent into rebellion. She corrected the serpents over-statement but essentially trapped herself when she added Adam's overstatement. God had never said "Don't touch it."
Before we go on, do you find any lie spoken by the serpent here?
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/04/06 07:35 AM
Jeff, we are at the crux of the matter. You think that inspiration is something enjoyed by only a few and that it also assigns infallibility to its recipients. That is demonstrably false. Inspiration is simply a means of communication. It is the way in which humans understand what is beyond them. All men are inspired. Saying that X is inspired adds nothing to the discussion. What we do with what we receive is much more important than what we receive. Paul understood that and informed us that he only understood in part. Why do we reject his opinion and claim that he fully understood?
So, it not that I trust or do not trust Paul or Moses. I accept what they have said and see whether it models reality. If if does not then I try to understand what was happening when they wrote. Everything is subject to testing. Nothing human is accepted on face value.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: It has been done! - 03/03/06 08:26 PM
Darius by your reasoning concerning the fallibility of inspiration then everything in the Bible is suspect and subject to mans interpretation or can be discarded at will. We are already seeing this, even within the SDA church when it comes to some rejecting a literal 7 day Creation. At what point do we discard (or disregard) the Bible completely? At what point do we relegate the Creator to the trash can. At what point will we start to teach Darwin in our schools as fact? We need to be on guard that we do not head down a slippery slope that can only lead to the rejection of Christianity. To trust in the Bible defies logic, to trust in God defies logic. Either the whole Bible is inspired or it is not.
Redfog
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/03/06 10:22 PM
Redfog, the Creator is not infallible and inspiration is neither fallible nor infallible. It is simply an instrument. However, we know that all men are fallible. [This last sentence indicates my intention to say in the first that "the Creator is nof fallible."]
If I were you I'd be more concerned when people begin to doubt reality. Remember, for a long time the church believed in the false teaching of geocentricism. Are you upset someone was bold enough to challenge it?
[ March 03, 2006, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: Darius ]
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It has been done! - 03/03/06 10:32 PM
quote:
Jeff, I hope you can accept that what occurred could only have occurred if Eve had not heard it from God that she was not to eat of the tree.
No, I don’t accept it because either could be true and still be true to the text. That Eve added the “or touch it” when there is no record in Genesis of God actually saying it, establishes no proof God had never spoken to her about it directly. In any event, we have the clear word of SOP that states that the angels had also given both Adam and Eve warning about the issue, that Eve should have been fully informed with sufficient truth to be able to withstand the temptation and (yes) lies of Satan. A lie is stating something with the intention that the person would believe something that is actually untrue. The “something” can be technically true, but stated in a way that leads one to believe something untrue. We’re not interested in “technical” truth; we’re interested in functional truth. Satan managed to convince Eve to eat the fruit by convincing her that the benefits of eating the fruit outweighed any risk. In that he lied. Eve is now dead because of her choice.
On the issue of inspiration, the logical conclusion of what you’re saying is that the Bible is no more inspired than any document written by anyone (except you excluded women for some reason). What then is the basis for assuming that Christianity is any truer than Islam, or Buddhism, or atheism?
So whose fault was it? Eve’s, Adam’s, God’s, Satan’s, a combination, or no one’s?
Jeff
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/03/06 11:03 PM
Jeff, if Eve had heard it from God she would be in a worse state of rebellion than Lucifer. The Creator would have been unjust to do what the Bible declares He has done. In fact, He could not legally do what the Bible says He did because the entire human race would have been severed from Him. He could no longer call us "my people."
I have not concerned myself with who is to blame because Jesus has already rectified the situation. I am concerned with who is to blame for us still being in this condition.
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It has been done! - 03/03/06 11:41 PM
Darius, saying that does not make it so. Lucifer held office in God’s heavenly government. You can argue how much light he had when he rebelled, but certainly you must see that he knew orders of magnitude more than Eve about the truth. But that Eve disobeyed the word of God is clear, and is clearly rebellion, though not nearly to the same degree as Lucifer. Eve still had to take it on faith that what God said was true. Lucifer KNEW what God said was true and still rebelled. That is what makes Lucifer ineligible for grace: he rebelled against God to His face.
As for blame, ok, actually that will do if you could tell me who you think is to blame for us still being in this condition. I see that as essentially the same thing. I’m still trying to get to the nuts and bolts of what you’re saying.
Jeff
Posted By: asygo
Re: It has been done! - 03/03/06 11:49 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
if Eve had heard it from God she would be in a worse state of rebellion than Lucifer. The Creator would have been unjust to do what the Bible declares He has done. In fact, He could not legally do what the Bible says He did because the entire human race would have been severed from Him. He could no longer call us "my people."
Here we find why God's grace is the centerpiece of the plan of salvation.
God said, "Eat it and die." Satan countered, "Eat it and live." Eve chose the wrong one to believe. Through her choice, and Adam's, the race had chosen death.
It is true that the rebellious race could no longer be truly God's people. Man was severed from God, and death was his unavoidable lot.
God's gracious solution was to create a new race. He came as the Second Adam. All who will die to self, who will humble themselves, who will reject the rebellion of the First Adam, are new creatures; they are raised to newness of life. These are His people; they are saved from their sins.
Those who do not die to self will die with self in the Lake of Fire. They are not God's people, and have no part in the promise of Matthew 1:21.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/03/06 11:58 PM
Jeff, why we are still here is not the same as who got us in this position.
Please provide a stroke by stroke account of how you think Lucifer fell into rebellion.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/04/06 12:00 AM
Asygo, you have created an exchange that is not supported by the facts. By Moses' account Lucifer never asked Eve to eat of the tree. Where do you get this "Eat and live?"
Posted By: Tom
Re: It has been done! - 03/04/06 12:20 AM
quote:
Redfog, the Creator is not infallible.
Really?
Posted By: asygo
Re: It has been done! - 03/04/06 12:37 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
Asygo, you have created an exchange that is not supported by the facts. By Moses' account Lucifer never asked Eve to eat of the tree. Where do you get this "Eat and live?"
"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:4-5)
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/04/06 12:40 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
quote:
Redfog, the Creator is not infallible.
Really?
Thanks for catching that. You know what I intended to say. I corrected it.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/04/06 12:43 AM
asygo, this is not an invitation to eat. It was in response to Eve. And there was not mention of living. He was saying what would happen if they ate. He was correct.
Posted By: asygo
Re: It has been done! - 03/04/06 12:57 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
asygo, this is not an invitation to eat. It was in response to Eve. And there was not mention of living. He was saying what would happen if they ate. He was correct.
I agree that Satan did not exactly invite Eve to eat the fruit. He merely said that if she ate, she would know good and evil, which was indeed correct. He merely presented the eating of the fruit as a way to gain something which she lacked, which was also correct, since she had no knowledge of evil at the time.
As for living, Satan did say, "Ye shall not surely die." I may be jumping to conclusions, but I thought not dying meant staying alive.
Posted By: Tom
Re: It has been done! - 03/04/06 01:21 AM
quote:
Thanks for catching that. You know what I intended to say. I corrected it.
No, I didn't know. That's why I didn't comment, in case it was just a typo.
Posted By: Tom
Re: It has been done! - 03/04/06 01:23 AM
But they did die. God was right. Satan was wrong; he lied.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It has been done! - 03/04/06 03:05 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
Jeff, why we are still here is not the same as who got us in this position.
So why are we still here?
/Thomas
Posted By: Tom
Re: It has been done! - 03/04/06 04:21 AM
quote:
Eve still had to take it on faith that what God said was true. Lucifer KNEW what God said was true and still rebelled. That is what makes Lucifer ineligible for grace: he rebelled against God to His face.
This is a good point.
It was unbelief in relation to God's character which led to rebellion. For a long time, Lucifer could have returned to his position. His sin would have been forgiven on the condition of repentance and submission. God bore with Lucifer a long time, and sought to win him to the truth in many different ways. In fact, Lucifer was convinced he was in the wrong, but he refused to repent even so, not wanting to lose the influence he had obtained among those he was deceiving.
quote:
When men broke the law of God, and defied His will, Satan exulted. It was proved, he declared, that the law could not be obeyed; man could not be forgiven. Because he, after his rebellion, had been banished from heaven, Satan claimed that the human race must be forever shut out from God's favor. God could not be just, he urged, and yet show mercy to the sinner.
But even as a sinner, man was in a different position from that of Satan. Lucifer in heaven had sinned in the light of God's glory. To him as to no other created being was given a revelation of God's love.
Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God. (DA 761, 762)
The work of the Gospel is to make reveal the character of God. Believing the truth reconciles us to God. It would reconcile Satan too, if he would believe, but by his recalcitrance and intransigence he had so warped his own character that he lost both the cabability and the desire to know truth.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: It has been done! - 03/06/06 03:41 AM
Darius why is it that when you are asked a question or someone voices a concern to you about something you've written you dance around and do everything possible to avoid the issue. Including being vague. When you do this you loose all credibility. When I raised a concern about your tendency to pick and choose what you believe in the Bible you did not address my concerns at all. If you want to convince us that you are right on something then lay out what you believe, in plain language, get to the point on your beliefs instead of offering us vagueness and dancing around the issue. When people ask you direct questions then answer them directly. When you don't it appears you might be ashamed of what you believe.
A while back on another thread I asked you time after time if you believe in a literal 7 day creation and you never gave a direct answer so when that happens people have to start assuming what you believe.
Redfog
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/08/06 07:07 AM
quote:
Originally posted by västergötland:
quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
Jeff, why we are still here is not the same as who got us in this position.
So why are we still here?
/Thomas
In this thread we are not discussing why we are still here? We can discuss that in a separate thread. Unless we can focus we will achieve nothing.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/08/06 07:09 AM
Redfog, you need to ask relevant questions. You seem to operate from the perspective that only people who ultimately share you view of the world have a right to participate in the marketplace. That is not a productive use of our minds. I will humor you this time. I do not believe in a 7 day creation. I don't think you will find evidence of a 7 day creation any where.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/08/06 07:13 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
But they did die. God was right. Satan was wrong; he lied.
Tom, a lie must be intentional. Now, let me correct your facts. The human race is the one at issue. The human race has not died. Everyday cells from my body die, but that does not mean I have died. The same is true of Lucifer. He has not died. I would be interested in your response.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It has been done! - 03/08/06 07:47 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
In this thread we are not discussing why we are still here? We can discuss that in a separate thread. Unless we can focus we will achieve nothing.
At this point, I do not wish to discuss it. I want you to put your thoughts on it on print.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: It has been done! - 03/07/06 08:20 PM
Now see how simple that was Darius? Thank you. I have little if any problem with those posting on here that don't believe the way the church does or I do. My problem is when people won't state what they believe and beat around the bush about it. If someone believes in something they should be strong enough to state those beliefs in plain and simple language so that we might all understand that persons belief.
Redfog
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It has been done! - 03/07/06 08:54 PM
Darius, are you contending that Satan did not lie (with intent to decieve) when he told Eve "you shall not surely die"? Are you contending that God lied when he told Adam "...in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (with intent to decieve)?
Please don’t make accusations of my motives in asking. I just want to know where you stand. I ask two yes or no questions. Please respond accordingly, but explanations acompanying your yes's or no's would be pudding.
Jeff
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/08/06 10:09 AM
Jeff, Lucifer's goal was to further his rebellion by wresting control of earth and its inhabitants. But that is not the issue here. If you are going to say that he lied you need to show what he said that was a lie. The closest you get is his response to Eve but that was based on the facts as they related to him. Disputing what someone says does not qualify as lying. It simply reflects a difference of opinion.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/08/06 10:11 AM
Redfog, if you think that was simple you have another think coming. Please note that while you know what I don't believe you cannot claim to know what I believe.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: It has been done! - 03/08/06 01:59 PM
Darius I'm sure that it was hard to go against what you may have been brought up to believe. (Assuming you are or were a traditional Christian or SDA) And no I have no idea what you might believe concerning our origins however at least we now know what you don't believe. It gives us a little something to build on in various discussions.
Redfog
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It has been done! - 03/08/06 06:08 PM
So from your post may I assume that the answer to both questions is that no one lied?
Darius, you don’t get to have it both ways. You can’t say that Eve was deceived (which you have said) and say that the serpent didn’t deceive her. The serpent told “technical” truths that led Eve to believe the wrong things. It is clear from the text that this was intentional. That is lying by definition. The serpent made Eve believe that there were no consequences to eating the fruit. She’s dead now as a direct result of eating the fruit. The serpent lied. This fact should be assumed as a tautology.
Also, the serpent misrepresented God’s character by implying that God was holding back something from Eve that she had a right to have. This is also a form of lying.
Also, the fact that God held the serpent responsible is further evidence of wrong-doing on his part, but moreover, the language used by God in the exchange with the serpent implies that the issue was the serpent’s deceptive tactics.
BTW, why was it so difficult for you to state your beliefs (or disbeliefs)? Sure, we may rebut what you say, or, in some cases, agree…or agree to disagree. But I see no personal harm done to anyone for simply stating religious beliefs on a religious forum. I’m not going to egg your house or have you arrested or anything. We’re just discussing ideas.
Jeff
Posted By: Tom
Re: It has been done! - 03/08/06 06:26 PM
quote:
The serpent made Eve believe that there were no consequences to eating the fruit.
The serpent went further than this, and alleged there were positive consequences to eating the fruit.
The serpent insuinated that God did not have her best interest at heart, which is central to what happened. It's not simply that man did something God said not to do. Man believed the lie that God was selfish and arbitrary, a lie still believed.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: It has been done! - 03/08/06 09:26 PM
The only reason to tell a lie is to deceive. All lies are deception.
The dictionary definition of deceive is "to make a person believe that which is not true".
Lie, "to make a statement one knows is false" and "a false statement made with intent to deceive"
Clearly Satan meant to deceive (or lie) and clearly Eve was deceived into believing the lie. You can tell the 100% truth but still lie.
Redfog
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/13/06 05:16 PM
A number of definitive statements are being made yet the writers are not providing the passages in the text that would support those conclusions. Further, we seem to ignore the fact that the human race has not died, nor has the band of fallen angels.
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It has been done! - 03/13/06 11:24 PM
The scripture record says that Eve died. The scripture records the serpent telling Eve that she would not die. The scripture record describes the serpent’s actions as deceptive. The serpent lied. That is definitive. You know where to find the verses.
There is no reason to believe that the serpent only meant that the human race would not die. Even if this is what he meant, he did not present it that way to Eve. The message he conveyed was that *she* would not die. If he did not intend to deceive Eve, he would have presented it truthfully, and, the Bible would not have labeled Satan as a liar. So, that the human race and the fallen angels including Satan has not died really has no baring on any of the definitive statements made in this thread regarding the lies.
We’ve been going in circles too long for such a simple point. The serpent deceived Eve. Can we agree and move on with the topic?
Jeff
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/14/06 12:39 AM
The point has already been made. The human race constitutes "His people" and He came to save his people. He did not fail. He did not come to make salvation possible. He came to save them. He is better than Rambo.
Posted By: asygo
Re: It has been done! - 03/14/06 05:27 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
The point has already been made. The human race constitutes "His people"...
The point was postulated, not proven.
If anyone wants to know for sure who "His people" are, just read until the end of the promise: They are those who have been saved from their sins. And truly, He did not fail.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/14/06 04:24 PM
Asygo, it is as simple as Grammar 101. If "He shall save His people" then it is obvious that those who need to be saved are His people. Saying that those who are saved are His people is simply restating the promise.
Posted By: Tom
Re: It has been done! - 03/14/06 05:46 PM
Darius, I can agree with what you are saying in a certain sense. For example, when Lincoln signed the emancipation proclamation, slaves were liberated, in one sense. In another sense they weren't, until they heard the good news, and believed it.
Similarly, Christ emancipated the human race. Had Christ not come, the human race would have self-destructed. The human race was lost, without hope. So in a certain sense, one can say that Christ saved the race, and indeed, inspiration (both Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy) states this very thing.
Is it in this sense that you are speaking? Or do you have in mind Universal Salvation, where everybody will spend eternity in heaven/new earth in God's presence?
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/14/06 06:01 PM
Why are we so uptight about who will be in heaven? That concern has not been sub-contracted to us so it is a bit humorous the amount of effort we apply to it. Deep inside it seems we wish to have the ability to decide who will and will not be there. Why not leave that to the Creator?
Posted By: asygo
Re: It has been done! - 03/14/06 11:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
Asygo, it is as simple as Grammar 101. If "He shall save His people" then it is obvious that those who need to be saved are His people.
Well, in Grammar 201, they taught us propositional logic.
By your logic, if I say, "I will pick up my son from school," I mean that everyone that needs to be picked up from school is my son. Wrong, obviously.
But it does mean that everyone who is NOT picked up from school is NOT my son.
Proper exegesis of Matthew 1:21 leads to the conclusion that those NOT saved from their sins are NOT His people. The claim that "His people" is universal is easily disproven by the fact that salvation from sin is not universal.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/14/06 11:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by asygo:
Well, in Grammar 201, they taught us propositional logic.
By your logic, if I say, "I will pick up my son from school," I mean that everyone that needs to be picked up from school is my son. Wrong, obviously.
But it does mean that everyone who is NOT picked up from school is NOT my son.
Proper exegesis of Matthew 1:21 leads to the conclusion that those NOT saved from their sins are NOT His people. The claim that "His people" is universal is easily disproven by the fact that salvation from sin is not universal.
You must have missed class that day. You are not the only one who has a son and he was your son before you picked him up. What you call proper exegesis is an attempt to twist the text to fit your doctrine.
Posted By: asygo
Re: It has been done! - 03/15/06 12:37 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
You are not the only one who has a son and he was your son before you picked him up. What you call proper exegesis is an attempt to twist the text to fit your doctrine.
True, I am not the only one who has a son. And God is not the only one who has people.
Again true, my son was mine before I picked him up. And God's people are His before He saves them from their sins.
But there is another truth that seems to escape your grasp: Since I promised to pick up my son, any son who I don't pick up is not mine. Since God promised to save His people from their sins, anyone who is not saved from his sins is not God's.
All I'm saying is that God promised to "save His people from their sins." That's what the angel said, and I accept that as authority. That's my doctrine, as you call it.
Now, if you have a kind of exegesis (or grammar or whatever you want to call it) that requires cutting off part of the angel's words in order to fit your doctrine, you're free to do that. Since that's a very popular hermeneutic, you're in no danger of being peculiar.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/15/06 12:58 AM
Your last comment shows the confidence you have in your arguments.
We know that the human race belongs to the Creator. Please tell us when he handed ownership to someone else and what kind of transaction it was.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It has been done! - 03/15/06 02:27 AM
I was thinking that if you want to get into grammar, wouldnt it be proper to do the grammar study in the greek instead of studying the grammar of the translation. Not unlikely the greek may clarify ambiguities in the translation.
/Thomas
Posted By: asygo
Re: It has been done! - 03/15/06 02:30 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
Your last comment shows the confidence you have in your arguments.
No argument from me. Just taking what the angel said, as is. Far be it from me to argue with the angel.
quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
We know that the human race belongs to the Creator. Please tell us when he handed ownership to someone else and what kind of transaction it was.
Here is what you said at the start of this thread: Instead of jumping to conclusions, deal with what I posted. Do you accept the message of the angel or do you not. We will have time enough to decide whether your present beliefs agree with the angel or not.
Here is your rendition of the verse: Matt. 1:21, "She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."
So, let's deal with what you posted. Do you see anything in there that describes who "His people" are?
As you so eloquently framed the challenge before us: Do you accept the message of the angel or do you not? We will have time enough to decide whether your present beliefs agree with the angel or not.
Posted By: Tom
Re: It has been done! - 03/15/06 04:45 AM
Darius, I'm not sure if you saw my question earlier. I asked you to specify what you understand the word "saved" to mean when saying that Christ saved the human race.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/15/06 03:35 PM
Tom, to save means to rescue. The human race did not rebel; it was kidnapped by the enemy. All Jesus came to do was to take his human race back. I suspect he would have done it much earlier if man had not foolishly tried to aid in his rescue by creating religions, thus increasing the confusion about the nature of Christ. Your example of Lincoln is correct. All the slaves were emancipated, including those from news was kept. When we tell people that they are not saved we are acting like those slave-owners who refused to pass on the news of Emancipation.
Posted By: Davros
Re: It has been done! - 03/15/06 05:36 PM
Did man create religion or was it formed by God?
quote:
And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
Genesis 17:9 - 14 NCV
Did the Human Race Rebel?
quote:
Elijah approached the people and said, "How long will you not decide between two choices? If the Lord is the true God, follow him, but if Baal is the true God, follow him!" But the people said nothing.
1 Kings 18:21 NCV
If it is up to the people to choose, they must be the ones to rebel.
It is not for us to say who is saved and who is not. We only tell people the way to be saved.
quote:
He brought them outside and said, "Men, what must I do to be saved?" They said to him, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved -- you and all the people in your house."
Acts 16:31 - 32 NCV
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 07:07 AM
Quote: posted by Darius| When we tell people that they are not saved we are acting like those slave-owners who refused to pass on the news of Emancipation. |
Just so that I understand what you’re really saying, do you think this is a true statement?
Because Jesus came to rescue the human race, and because He was successful, everyone in the human race will be in heaven.
If you say no, then we’re pretty much, as snowman pointed out early in this discussion, arguing semantics. If you say yes, then I can see why we’re still discussing it.
Jeff
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/15/06 08:08 PM
Jeff, we have pretended that there is no difference between being saved and deciding whether one wants to be in the kingdom or not. We cannot judge our doctrines by their outcome but by what they reveal about the Creator. Being saved is a legal act. Where one spends eternity is a personal decision.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 12:08 AM
So a person can be saved but choose not to spend eternity with God? Where would he then spend it? As dead? In hell? What, may I ask, is a person who rejects Gods invitation to live with Him saved from and what is this person saved to?
/Thomas
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 12:21 AM
Vaster, the question you need to ask is Why did we need to be saved, rescued, or ransomed? These are the verbs the Bible uses.
Posted By: Tom
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 12:42 AM
quote:
Tom, to save means to rescue. The human race did not rebel; it was kidnapped by the enemy. All Jesus came to do was to take his human race back. I suspect he would have done it much earlier if man had not foolishly tried to aid in his rescue by creating religions, thus increasing the confusion about the nature of Christ. Your example of Lincoln is correct. All the slaves were emancipated, including those from news was kept. When we tell people that they are not saved we are acting like those slave-owners who refused to pass on the news of Emancipation.
I agree! (provided we have an understanding of "saved" as "emancipated" as per the analogy).
The good news for the slaves was not, "If you believe, you will be freed" but the simple, "You are free!"
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 12:56 AM
By golly, he's got it. What the church has not realized is that when each week you convince freed people that they are slaves they will automatically act the part. Then next week we go on the pulpit and act surprised at the results. For some reason we prefer to dispense good advice on how they can get saved (whatever that entails) instead of proclaiming the good news that they have already been saved. I think it has to do with being able to feel that we are ahead of them because we accomplished what they have not yet accomplished. The good news puts us at the same point.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 01:20 AM
Darius,
To be honest, the question I am really asking right now is why I bother to ask at all in this thread since your not going to even pretend to give answeres anyway. When I want to know what the bible teaches I search in the bible. Here I wanted to know what you are teaching but it still apears this is vasted effort.
Posted By: Tom
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 01:28 AM
quote:
I think it has to do with being able to feel that we are ahead of them because we accomplished what they have not yet accomplished. The good news puts us at the same point.
This is true too. Sadly so.
Luther said, "We are made of the same mud."
Ellen White said, "Righteousness by faith lays the glory of man in the dust."
Posted By: Tom
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 01:32 AM
Thomas, using the word "emanicipated" or "freed," a person is freed from the condemnation and guilt which came upon the race through Adam and freed to the ability to choose eternal life or eternal death.
To quote Ellen White, "Christ signed the emancipation papers of the human race with His blood."
Posted By: asygo
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 01:58 AM
If forensic salvation was the topic of study, this thread should have started in Romans 5. We find there that Jesus bought back the race, regardless of personal choice. But since it started with Matt 1:21, Bro Thomas' question is central.
Even if everyone has been legally emancipated, those who choose to be "dead in trespasses and sins" have not been saved from their sins, and are still dead.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 02:01 AM
Arnold, what makes you think there are different models of the same Plan of Salvation all leading to different conclusions?
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 02:09 AM
quote:
Mat 24: 45"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time? 46Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 47Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 48But if that wicked servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed,' 49and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards, 50the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know 51and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Please explain this parable in light of the plan of salvation.
Posted By: asygo
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 02:24 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
Arnold, what makes you think there are different models of the same Plan of Salvation all leading to different conclusions?
Bro Darius,
What makes you think I think there are "different models of the same Plan of Salvation"?
There is one plan, there is one conclusion. I do not believe some people are "saved" and go to Heaven, while some people are "saved" and go somewhere else. The plan of salvation is a comprehensive package that solves the problem of selfishness; it is not a buffet line where you can pick and choose which part you like.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 03:54 PM
I asked that question, Arnold, because you seemed to imply that it makes a difference to the outcome if one began at Rom. 5 or Matt. 1:20. The Plan of Salvation is what it is so your opinion is only a matter of academic interest. The Creator is in charge and He knows what is needed.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 03:55 PM
Vaster, you run into trouble when you attempt to use conversational speech as the basis for doctrine. Conversations are very context-focussed.
Posted By: Davros
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 06:11 PM
- Mark 13:13
- Mark 16:16
- John 10:9
- Acts 14:47
- Acts 16:30
- Romans 10:9 - 10
- Romans 10:13 - 15
- 1 Corinthians 15:2
- Hebrews 13:13
- A New Life p.42
- Testimonies vol. 6, p.91
quote:
None can depend upon their profession of faith as proof that they have a saving connection with Christ.
Isn't proclaiming salvation for people what the Catholic priests do (for a price of course)? It seems a little hard to tell people that they are saved when we know people will be lost. This is an even harder thing to do when we look at the above texts and these texts:
- Luke 16:15
- Romans 8:27
- 27 Fundamental Beliefs p.120
quote:
The Experience of salvation comes from God alone.
- 27 Fundamental Beliefs p.131
quote:
Saving righteousness comes from the one righteous man, Jesus, and is conveyed to us by the Holy Spirit
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 06:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
Vaster, you run into trouble when you attempt to use conversational speech as the basis for doctrine. Conversations are very context-focussed.
Could you at least use quotes to make what you're refering to more obvious? Are you refering to the text Thomas quoted? If so, are you saying that parables, because you see them as conversational, are no basis for determining doctrine?
Or, are you refering to something else that Thomas wrote? Or, are you refering to something to which Thomas referred? Or, are you just talking in circles? I'm trying to make sense of what you said, but the ambiguity is fierce competition.
Jeff
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/17/06 07:22 AM
Jeff, the parable in Matt. 24 was in response to a particular set of circumstances; it was not a doctrinal treatise.
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 08:00 PM
Do you find no relevant, timeless, cultureless principles of truth taught in the parable that you might find worthy of the explanation that satisfies Thomas’ request?
Jeff
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 08:33 PM
The overall principle is that we should be diligent with the work we have been assigned. That's all.
Posted By: Davros
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 08:46 PM
And what work are you refering to?
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 08:50 PM
Your work is different from mine.
Posted By: Davros
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 09:06 PM
Strange, I read a commission to the church.
quote:
So go and make followers of all people in the world. Baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. 20 Teach them to obey everything that I have taught you, and I will be with you always, even until the end of this age."
Matthew 28:19 - 20 NCV
It sounds like we all have the same ting to do.
Posted By: Davros
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 09:11 PM
How can each person have a completely different work if all are to have the same purpose?
quote:
I have given these people the glory that you gave me so that they can be one, just as you and I are one.
John 17:22 NCV
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 09:21 PM
We obviously speak different languages.
Posted By: Davros
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 09:22 PM
English is relativly common hear. What do you speak in Indiana?
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 09:43 PM
Now Dave, don’t be talkin’ ‘bout Indiana. I used to live there. I can assure you that the language differences in Indiana are minor enough that this would not explain the impasse.
I have another theory. When I was a boy, I had one of those 8-ball things, I forget what they called them. You were supposed to ask it questions, then shake it around a bit, and position it upside so this prism with canned answers would float to the top. The answers were all vague enough they could fit almost any question. Maybe that explains the strange feeling of Déjà vu I get whenever I read this thread.
Jeff
Posted By: Davros
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 09:48 PM
I have a sister that lives in Indiana, so I know the language there; I was just matching the tone of the previous post.
Although that daylight savings thing they have there is very odd.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 09:59 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Hoover:
I have a sister that lives in Indiana, so I know the language there; I was just matching the tone of the previous post.
Things might be better if you would be yourself instead of trying to match a tone you perceive. Pretense always causes problems.
Posted By: Davros
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 10:23 PM
Who is offering pertence. It is myself to state how silly things are, and that is exactly what I did.
In addition, to match tone is not to mimic.
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 10:52 PM
You were TRYING to match some tone that you perceived.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 11:26 PM
Ambiguity, thy name is Dairus...
When I post a quote and you think it is out of context, there are two options of how to respond to it. Either you could point to the extended context and write your reply within that context, or you could do as youve done, point out the context or just whatever point there is that could be pointed out and leave it at that thus dodging the question itself.
/Thomas
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/16/06 11:41 PM
What are you talking about, Vaster?
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It has been done! - 03/17/06 12:09 AM
My post on "posted 16 March, 2006 00:09" and your following replies to that post.
/Thomas
Posted By: Darius
Re: It has been done! - 03/17/06 01:25 AM
I should not have to point out to you that you gave us no indication as to what you think that passage says. Obviously, it supports a view you have. In the context of this thread it is your obligation to tell me what you think it says so I can react to it.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: It has been done! - 03/17/06 01:49 AM
Darius will not be reacting to any further posts at MSDAOL, therefore, let us move on from what he has posted here.
Posted By: asygo
Re: It has been done! - 03/17/06 04:05 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
I asked that question, Arnold, because you seemed to imply that it makes a difference to the outcome if one began at Rom. 5 or Matt. 1:20.
Regardless of which verse one studies, there is no difference in the outcome. The problem is when one confuses the outcome with the foundation.
Some people apply the lessons of Romans 5 to Matthew 1:21. Others apply the lessons of Matthew 1:21 to Romans 5. It is best to take Paul and the angel at their words, and not try to squeeze them into our theological cubbyholes.
Since the thread originated with Matthew 1:21, it is somewhat surprising that some are focusing on what Paul said in Romans.
quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
The Plan of Salvation is what it is so your opinion is only a matter of academic interest. The Creator is in charge and He knows what is needed.
Truly, the plan of salvation is whatever God planned it to be. The best that we can do is agree with what He has declared. That's why I don't put much weight on my personal preferences, but try to stick to what God said.
Once again, it boils down to either believing what the angel said, or wresting it into what we wish he had said.
Posted By: asygo
Re: It has been done! - 03/17/06 04:08 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
let us move on from what he has posted here.
Didn't see that until after I posted. Delete/edit my previous post as you see fit.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: It has been done! - 03/17/06 04:25 AM
Your post is good in relation to the topic, therefore, as other may still contribute to this topic, the post will remain as is, and, except for the presence of the originator of the topic, the topic may also continue.
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