The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity?

Posted By: asygo

The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/08/11 12:22 AM

I recently heard that a prominent Adventist author teaches the idea that the Father created Jesus a long time ago, then promoted Him into the Godhead. Furthermore, Lucifer became jealous because he wanted to be promoted as well.

Anybody have any clue who is teaching this?
Posted By: dedication

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/08/11 05:31 AM

No --
But the idea that God "brought forth" a Son then promoted Him into the Godhead and Lucifer became jealous because he wanted to be promoted as well is very much part of the those pushing for a anti-trinitarians.
Posted By: dedication

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/08/11 06:05 AM

What I see as the "root" of the problem is people ascribing to Jesus Original status things which He took upon Himself as He desended down to meet His created creatures.

Jesus was the One Who was in the Form of God, Who was equal with God, One with God, Who was God. He was the ONE WHO made himself of no reputation, and took upon himself the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men (See John 1:1, Phil. 2:6)

After He had suffered the fullest disgrace in His death upon the cross, because of OUR TRANSGRESSIONS, Jesus Christ, Who will forever carry His identification with humanity, (the SON OF MAN as well as the SON OF GOD) was escorted to heaven and exalted as the King of the glory. There in heaven He took His place with the Father on His throne-- the only One worthy to implement the grand covenant between God and man."

From the highest point, He descended to the lowest depths. He accepted willingly a dependent relationship with God the Father, the same relationship, which humans may have to God.

And when He returned to heaven, He was hightly exalted!

But His Exaltation wasn't a "promotion" in the sense anti-trinitarians seem to teach.

Oh, someone says -- But He was exalted prior to creation, doesn't that mean He was "promoted".

But look at it this way.
Christ is called the "archangel" -- Why. HE IS NOT AN ANGEL. But He goes forth and mingles with His Created beings. He is the COMMANDER of the angels. The Lord of Hosts! It is in this sense that Lucifer was "second in command" as a leader of the angels. The idea that Lucifer and Christ were on the same level at any point in time is plain blasphemy.

But when Lucifer began to agitate this idea, God the Father called an assembly and showed them Christ's true exalted position.

"The King of the universe summoned the heavenly hosts before Him, that in their presence He might set forth the true position of His Son" [PA 36]
"There had been no change in the position or authority of Christ. Lucifer's envy and misrepresentation and his claims to equality with Christ had made necessary a statement of the true position of the Son of God; but this had been the same from the beginning. Many of the angels were, however, blinded by Lucifer's deceptions. {PP 38.1}

So that "exaltation" was not a promotion or "change in position or authority of Christ. It was to show the angels that their Leader was equal with God! Was indeed God.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/08/11 07:10 PM

Lucifer became jealous of Jesus because he wasn't invited to help design the human race. There is zero mention of him wanting to be promoted to divinity.
Posted By: APL

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/08/11 07:37 PM

Isaiah 14:12-14 KJV How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

SDABC: Like the most High. Lucifer aspired to be like God in position, power, and glory, but not in character. He desired for himself the homage the angelic host gave to God. Only a created being, he sought honor due alone to the Creator. Instead of seeking to make God supreme in the affections of the angelic host, he sought for himself first place in those affections.

EGW: Satan's Rebellion of Long Standing.--The records of some are similar to that of the exalted angel who was given a position next to Jesus Christ in the heavenly courts. Lucifer was enshrouded with glory as the covering cherub. Yet this angel whom God had created, and entrusted with power, became desirous of being as God. He gained the sympathy of some of his associates by suggesting thoughts of criticism regarding the government of God. This evil seed was scattered in a most seducing manner; and after it had sprung up and taken root in the minds of many, he gathered the ideas that he himself had first implanted in the minds of others, and brought them before the highest order of angels as the thoughts of other minds against the government of God. Thus, by ingenious methods of his own devising, Lucifer introduced rebellion in heaven. {4BC 1143.1}
God desired that a change take place, and that the work of Satan be brought out in its genuine aspect. But the exalted angel standing next to Christ was opposed to the Son of God. The underworking was so subtle that it could not be made to appear before the heavenly host as the thing that it really was; and so there was war in heaven, and Satan was expelled with all who would not stand on the side of loyalty to God's government. The Lord God stood forth as Supreme Ruler. {4BC 1143.2}
This condition of things had existed a long period of time before Satan was unmasked and the evil ones expelled (Letter 162, 1906). {4BC 1143.3}
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/09/11 01:14 AM

Quote:
I recently heard that a prominent Adventist author teaches the idea that the Father created Jesus a long time ago, then promoted Him into the Godhead. Furthermore, Lucifer became jealous because he wanted to be promoted as well.

Anybody have any clue who is teaching this?

I think nowadays it would not be possible for a prominent Adventist author to teach this and still retain his functions.
Posted By: Rick H

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/09/11 01:28 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
I recently heard that a prominent Adventist author teaches the idea that the Father created Jesus a long time ago, then promoted Him into the Godhead. Furthermore, Lucifer became jealous because he wanted to be promoted as well.

Anybody have any clue who is teaching this?
So Christ was just a angel or created being like Adam, and worthy to be worship. I think I see a problem with that.....
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/09/11 02:20 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
[/quote]
I think nowadays it would not be possible for a prominent Adventist author to teach this and still retain his functions.


True, Ellen White & James White would be disfellowshipped.

__________________
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/09/11 02:22 AM


But she would not be surprised because the Harmon family were treated the same by the Methodist Church.

_________________________
Posted By: dedication

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/09/11 09:01 AM

Originally Posted By: gordonb1
Originally Posted By: Rosangela

I think nowadays it would not be possible for a prominent Adventist author to teach this and still retain his functions.


True, Ellen White & James White would be disfellowshipped.

__________________

Basically you are saying that Christ and Lucifer were on the same level. Both created beings. Christ was exalted to divinity but Lucifer wasn't thus he had good reason to rebel.

If EGW taught that (WHICH SHE DIDN"T)
then there would be no choice but to discard her writings as inspired.

To tell you the truth I am absolutely shocked at some of the things people say here about Our Lord and Savior.

I'm sure Satan is laughing with glee. It is his purpose to contest the true nature of Christ as fully God in the fullest sense.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/09/11 09:56 AM

Originally Posted By: gordonb1
True, Ellen White & James White would be disfellowshipped.


This comment seems out of line.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: geoffm

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/09/11 12:03 PM

I don't know of any anti-trinitarian who would give any credence to such a claim. The anti-trinitarian position has been clear and settled from the early days. "A survey of other Adventist writers during these year, reveals that, to a man, they rejected the Trinity, yet with equal unanimity they upheld the divinity of Christ." Doctrine of the Trinity in the SDA denomination, 311.
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/09/11 03:24 PM

Quote:
Green: This comment seems out of line.

"Most of the founders of Seventh=day Adventism would not be able to join the church today if they had to subscribe to the denomination's Fundamental Beliefs...More specifically, most would not be able to agree to belief number 2, which deals with the doctrine of the Trinity..." George Knight, Ministry Magazine, October 1993, p. 10

_________________
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/09/11 04:00 PM

Quote:
Basically you are saying that Christ and Lucifer were on the same level. Both created beings.

Of course not. No such claim was made. Christ was the Son of God, before creation, before Satan's fall.

The Father created all things through His Son. They created the angels, including Lucifer, the planets and all earth's inhabitants.

"And I saw that when GOD said to his SON, Let us make man in our image, Satan was jealous of JESUS."
(Capitals in original - 1 Spiritual Gifts p, 17. 1858)

Ellen White placed this vision upon the very first page of her original Great Controversy series. The Sonship of Christ is a pillar of her work, as with the Bible.

"Those who derided His claim to be the Son of God are speechless now." Great Controversy 643.

_______________________
Posted By: dedication

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/09/11 05:40 PM


Originally Posted By: gordonb1
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Originally Posted By: asygo
I recently heard that a prominent Adventist author teaches the idea that the Father created Jesus a long time ago, then promoted Him into the Godhead. Furthermore, Lucifer became jealous because he wanted to be promoted as well.

I think nowadays it would not be possible for a prominent Adventist author to teach this and still retain his functions.


True, Ellen White & James White would be disfellowshipped.

__________________


So yes you were defending the "prominent Adventist author [who]teaches the idea that the Father created Jesus a long time ago, then promoted Him into the Godhead.

And yes, that is putting Christ on the same level as Lucifer, only that Christ was exalted and Lucifer wasn't. Which is heresy.
Posted By: dedication

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/09/11 05:46 PM

Christ's "exaltation" before the angel's did not change His position.

But when Lucifer began to agitate this idea, God the Father called an assembly and showed them Christ's true exalted position.

"The King of the universe summoned the heavenly hosts before Him, that in their presence He might set forth the true position of His Son" [PA 36]
"There had been no change in the position or authority of Christ. Lucifer's envy and misrepresentation and his claims to equality with Christ had made necessary a statement of the true position of the Son of God; but this had been the same from the beginning. Many of the angels were, however, blinded by Lucifer's deceptions. {PP 38.1}

So that "exaltation" was not a promotion or "change in position or authority of Christ. It was to show the angels that the member of the Godhead Who was their Leader was equal with God the Father! He was indeed God.

Christ was NOT created or pro-created.
His was life un-originated and unborrowed.
There is NO need to force the human finite concept of "a son" unto the Divine relationship of "Father and Son".
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/09/11 05:59 PM

Originally Posted By: gordonb1
Quote:
Green: This comment seems out of line.

"Most of the founders of Seventh=day Adventism would not be able to join the church today if they had to subscribe to the denomination's Fundamental Beliefs...More specifically, most would not be able to agree to belief number 2, which deals with the doctrine of the Trinity..." George Knight, Ministry Magazine, October 1993, p. 10

_________________


George's comment seems out of line, too. The church is not to have any creed other than the Bible, per Ellen White.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/09/11 06:29 PM


George Knight is probably the leading historian of the SDA Church. Though often out of line, at least here he speaks a truth in Ministry magazine (the official Church journal for pastors). But as a Church spokesperson and educator, he goes on record that Church doctrine has changed.

_______________________
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/09/11 06:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
The church is not to have any creed other than the Bible.


Agreed. Thus there is one baptismal vow to join the Church:

"I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. ...and he baptized him." (Acts 8:37,38)

_____________________
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/09/11 07:02 PM


Dedication may have missed the first pages of Patriarchs & Prophets,
where the author is laying the groundwork.

Here EGW quotes Proverbs 8:22-30 as spoken by Christ Himself.

"The Lord possessed me..."
"I was set up..."
"I was brought forth..."
"Then I was by him as one brought up with him..."
"I was daily his delight..."

Patriarchs & Prophets p. 34

_______________________________
Posted By: asygo

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/09/11 08:00 PM

Originally Posted By: gordonb1
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
I think nowadays it would not be possible for a prominent Adventist author to teach this and still retain his functions.


True, Ellen White & James White would be disfellowshipped.

Gordon, are you saying that James and Ellen White believed that Jesus was created an angel a very long time ago, and was later promoted into the Godhead?
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/09/11 08:59 PM


Not at all Arnold.

But my opinion matters little. Read her published works to know what she believed.

Try the first pages of:

* 1 Spiritual Gifts (1858)
* 1 Spirit of Prophecy (1870)
* Patriarchs & Prophets(1890)
* Story of Redemption ( a compilation)

______________________________
Posted By: asygo

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/09/11 10:10 PM

Rosangela said that a prominent Adventist author could not promote such a teaching and retain his position. Your comment implied that you believe EGW would be disfellowshipped because she such things.

We can certainly talk more about exactly how Jesus came into existence. However, my primary goal for the thread was to find out who teaches that Jesus was created an angel, then promoted into the Godhead.
Posted By: Elle

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/09/11 10:17 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Rosangela said that a prominent Adventist author could not promote such a teaching and retain his position. Your comment implied that you believe EGW would be disfellowshipped because she such things.

We can certainly talk more about exactly how Jesus came into existence. However, my primary goal for the thread was to find out who teaches that Jesus was created an angel, then promoted into the Godhead.


This is an interesting discussion. Arnold, I think Gordon is in line with the discussion as you said in the opening the following :

Quote:
I recently heard that a prominent Adventist author teaches the idea that the Father created Jesus a long time ago, then promoted Him into the Godhead. Furthermore, Lucifer became jealous because he wanted to be promoted as well.


There's no mention of Jesus created as an Angel. Maybe you intended to mean this but it was not stated correctly in your introduction.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/09/11 11:36 PM

Quote:
There's no mention of Jesus created as an Angel. Maybe you intended to mean this but it was not stated correctly in your introduction.

But if Jesus had been created, the best thing He could be would be an angel (promoted into the Godhead).
Posted By: Elle

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 12:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
There's no mention of Jesus created as an Angel. Maybe you intended to mean this but it was not stated correctly in your introduction.

But if Jesus had been created, the best thing He could be would be an angel (promoted into the Godhead).


No, that's not the only option. Jesus could of been a begotten son of G-d endowed with divinity as His Father.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 05:05 AM

These are two different views which use two different words - "created" is different from "begotten."
Posted By: Colin

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 05:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
There's no mention of Jesus created as an Angel. Maybe you intended to mean this but it was not stated correctly in your introduction.

But if Jesus had been created, the best thing He could be would be an angel (promoted into the Godhead).


No, that's not the only option. Jesus could of been a begotten son of G-d endowed with divinity as His Father.

Sorry, Elle: that's not an option, since only the Word of God could be begotten of God as his Son "in the days of eternity".

Btw, such a belief in God's only begotten Son is hardly unique to Adventists, using trinitarian labels or not.
Posted By: Colin

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 05:08 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Rosangela said that a prominent Adventist author could not promote such a teaching and retain his position. Your comment implied that you believe EGW would be disfellowshipped because she such things.

We can certainly talk more about exactly how Jesus came into existence. However, my primary goal for the thread was to find out who teaches that Jesus was created an angel, then promoted into the Godhead.

We are warned not to speculate on "exactly how Jesus came into existence", remember, besides that it is written that God has a begotten Son, divine as he is (Jn 1:1). Sister White backs that up, completely.

It's not worth finding whoever believes what he whom you wish to find believes, other than to help clear up his confusion. smile
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 05:36 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Rosangela said that a prominent Adventist author could not promote such a teaching and retain his position. Your comment implied that you believe EGW would be disfellowshipped because she such things.

Hi Arnold - A careful reading of EGW will show that she teaches the Bible truth on this point:

That God brought forth His Only Begotten Son in the days of eternity.
(See Proverbs 8:22-30 & Micah 5:2 as quoted in Patriarchs & Prophets 36)

And it's very clear that Christ was God's Son before creation & before Satan's fall - unless one ignores Ellen White's description of this period as found in her books listed above. Christ was not 'play-acting' the Son role. (Why do so many theologians offer drama in place of gospel truth?) This of course would make a mockery of the plan of redemption - the Incarnation, the Sacrifice, the crucifixion, the resurrection, the atonement & mediation as High Priest at the right hand of God.

And we'd have to throw out John 3:16. And the epistles of John.

But yes, Ellen White's teaching on this point would collide with the "co-equal, co-eternal" of the 28 creed. And so the Church (through George Knight in Ministry magazine) declared that "Most of the founders of Seventh=day Adventism would not be able to join the church today..." as "...most would not be able to agree to belief number 2, which deals with the doctrine of the Trinity..."

Originally Posted By: asygo
We can certainly talk more about exactly how Jesus came into existence. However, my primary goal for the thread was to find out who teaches that Jesus was created an angel, then promoted into the Godhead.

Sorry Arnold, can't help here. There are many voices & doctrines.

Posted By: Colin

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 05:50 AM

I agree with you, except here.
Originally Posted By: gordonb1
But yes, Ellen White's teaching on this point would collide with the "co-equal, co-eternal" of the 28 creed.

What Ellen White didn't teach is "co-existent". She did teach co-eternal and co-equal.
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 05:51 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
These are two different views which use two different words - "created" is different from "begotten."

Yes Rosangela, an important distinction.

Christ was begotten.

Then God created all things through Christ.

"..God, who created all things by Jesus Christ." Ephesians 3:9.

__________________
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 06:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Colin
I agree with you, except here.
Originally Posted By: gordonb1
But yes, Ellen White's teaching on this point would collide with the "co-equal, co-eternal" of the 28 creed.

What Ellen White didn't teach is "co-existent". She did teach co-eternal and co-equal.


Hi Colin, is 'co-existent' in the 28 FB?

________________________
Posted By: dedication

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 07:59 AM

Originally Posted By: by EGW
"Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity, God over all, blessed forevermore. The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person, yet one with the Father. He was the surpassing glory of heaven. He was the commander of the heavenly intelligences, and the adoring homage of the angels was received by Him as His right. He was equal with God, infinite and omnipotent.
But He humbled Himself, and took mortality upon Him. As a member of the human family, He was mortal; but as a God, He was the fountain of life to the world.{FLB 46}
Posted By: dedication

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 08:06 AM

"From all eternity Christ was united with the Father, and when He took upon Himself human nature, He was still one with God. 1SM 229
Posted By: asygo

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 08:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Elle
Quote:
I recently heard that a prominent Adventist author teaches the idea that the Father created Jesus a long time ago, then promoted Him into the Godhead. Furthermore, Lucifer became jealous because he wanted to be promoted as well.


There's no mention of Jesus created as an Angel. Maybe you intended to mean this but it was not stated correctly in your introduction.

I guess I didn't mention the angel part. In any case, the important aspect to me is that Jesus was a creature at some point, then was later made divine. I want to know where this is coming from so I can investigate further.
Posted By: asygo

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 09:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Colin
It's not worth finding whoever believes what he whom you wish to find believes, other than to help clear up his confusion. smile

Actually, the confusion still exists in my Earliteens class. One of the teachers brought it up during a discussion on the Fundamental Belief regarding Jesus. She said Jesus was first created an angel, then was later promoted into the Godhead.

Some of my more astute students immediately challenged her to prove it from the Bible. She could not give the verses, but she said she'll find the book where she got it from.

I talked to her after the class to make sure she just did not misunderstand or maybe she misspoke. She believes it. But she forgot the book and author where she got it from, though she is adamant that this teaching was supported by many Bible verses. She narrowed it down to Gulley, Paulien, or Goldstein, though I would be very surprised if it was really one of those.

It has been several weeks now, and she still can't find the book. So I've resorted to enlisting some outside help in locating this teaching. So far, nobody can tell me where it's coming from.
Posted By: asygo

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 09:10 AM

Originally Posted By: dedication
The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person, yet one with the Father.{FLB 46}

"From eternity, a distinct person." I don't know how that can fit into any theory that there was a time that Jesus did not exist, or only existed as part of the Father.
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 02:22 PM



Yes, Christ existed from eternity. That is when He was brought forth.

His "goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting5769 (margin ~ the days of eternity)" Micah 5:2.

"I was set up from everlasting5769 Proverbs 8:23.

_____________________
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 02:45 PM


So Ellen White is correct when she uses these same Bible passages to establish the foundation for her work in Patriarchs & Prophets p. 36.

Jones & Waggoner taught the same thing.

These were the three people to bring the message of Christ's righteousness to the Church in 1888.

("Angels stood by their side", etc.)

But they were ridiculed, and Christ was rejected.

________________________
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 03:12 PM


Some propose that Christ could not be Divine if he were God's Son.

Is this not presumption? Are we God's counsellor? (Romans 11:34)

Could the Sovereign of the Universe bring forth anything less than Divinity?

No, the Son had all the attributes of His Father.

_______________________
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 04:00 PM


Imagine if we allowed a man to have a son, with the strict provision that the son would not possess his father's character or attributes.

Such would be impossible, it contravenes natural order.

Thus Christ is Divine by Inheritance.

________________________
Posted By: Elle

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 04:11 PM

Originally Posted By: gordonb1

No, the Son had all the attributes of His Father.

Including immortality?
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 04:25 PM


On earth, Satan did not dispute Christ as the Son of Man.

Rather, he questioned His Divinity as the Son of God: "If thou be the Son of God.." Matthew 4:3.

"And if he [Satan] could tempt Him to question His sonship, and doubt the truth of the word spoken by His Father, he would gain a great victory." 1 Selected Messages 275

What word spake the Father?

"This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Matthew 3:17

______________________
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 06:12 PM

Quote:
We are warned not to speculate on "exactly how Jesus came into existence", remember

???
Where is this warning?
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 06:21 PM

Quote:
Could the Sovereign of the Universe bring forth anything less than Divinity?
No, the Son had all the attributes of His Father.

Such a view precludes self-existence. Someone who was brought to existence by someone else can't be defined as self-existent.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 06:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
We are warned not to speculate on "exactly how Jesus came into existence", remember

???
Where is this warning?

Referring to His incarnation.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 06:37 PM

Ah, OK. So it has nothing to do with this discussion.
Posted By: JAK

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 07:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
But if Jesus had been created, the best thing He could be would be an angel (promoted into the Godhead).


Maybe that's what annoyed Lucifer so bad.
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 07:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Could the Sovereign of the Universe bring forth anything less than Divinity?
No, the Son had all the attributes of His Father.

Such a view precludes self-existence. Someone who was brought to existence by someone else can't be defined as self-existent.

Not so Rosangela, self-existence is different from self-origination.

Christ did not have to 'eat from the Tree of Life'.

_________________________________
Posted By: JAK

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 07:16 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication, from post #136543
...But when Lucifer began to agitate this idea, God the Father called an assembly and showed them Christ's true exalted position.

"The King of the universe summoned the heavenly hosts before Him, that in their presence He might set forth the true position of His Son" [PA 36]
"There had been no change in the position or authority of Christ. Lucifer's envy and misrepresentation and his claims to equality with Christ had made necessary a statement of the true position of the Son of God; but this had been the same from the beginning. Many of the angels were, however, blinded by Lucifer's deceptions. {PP 38.1}

So that "exaltation" was not a promotion or "change in position or authority of Christ. It was to show the angels that their Leader was equal with God! Was indeed God.


So, obviously the angels themselves have (or had) some confusion about just what Jesus was or is. According to these quotes, he was not recognizable as "God" to the angels, since the recognizable "God" had to tell the angels that Jesus was also "God".

Not sure I'm OK with that...
Posted By: Kevin H

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 07:31 PM

God is outside of time and space and the creator of time and space. A God too big for us to comprehend. The trinity is how God manifests God's self to finite beings, teaching the 3 aspects of God that are both necessary but one or two alone are insufficient manifestations of God.

Revelation 12 and 13 are the aspects of the trinity, only they are independent of each other, or cooperateing for their own selfish purposes instead of the oneness that we see in God's manifestations.

All three members of the trinity took our sins and suffered. Jesus in his humanity died in the process and it is an insult to God to say that there was anything less than he himself that bore the penality of our sins.

When we refuse the trinity, then we are commiting the sin of idolotry because we make one aspect of God to be the WHOLE of God. Yes, God in his unassuming nature allowed our pioneers to question the trinity (however the trinity was an optional doctrine that some members believed)and the church received the natural results: We began preaching the law the law the law until we were as dry as the hills of Gilboah. No others want to bring us back to that point. We see in other groups that reject the trinity this same thing. For example the Jehovah's Witnesses have a governing body that tells the members what to do. If I understand correctly, they are not allowed to just read through the Bible, but they have to read the texts that the governing body tells them they can read in the translation they choose, and they are very focused on works.

Our pioneers had God's leading to show the problems with rejecting the trinity. However since the Lord has lead us through this and there are people now rejecting the trinity, it would be a rejection of the truth and thus setting ourselves up for attacks by Satan.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 07:39 PM

Quote:
Not so Rosangela, self-existence is different from self-origination.

Webster's New World Dictionary defines self-existent as:

existing of or by itself without external cause or agency

Again, someone who was originated by someone else is not self-existent. Anyway, God was not originated by anyone. Whatever you call that, it's an attribute of God, which, according to antitrinitarianism, is not an attribute of Christ.

Quote:
Christ did not have to 'eat from the Tree of Life'.

???
Nor do the angels.

Posted By: gordonb1

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 08:18 PM


Rosangela, before resorting to Webster's New World Dictionary, please identify the Bible texts where you have seen Christ's self-existence proclaimed. Then we can stick with inspired sources which will explain themselves.

______________
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 08:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Kevin H

Our pioneers had God's leading to show the problems with rejecting the trinity. However since the Lord has lead us through this and there are people now rejecting the trinity, it would be a rejection of the truth and thus setting ourselves up for attacks by Satan.

Hi Kevin, the Church did not accept the Trinity doctrine until the Dallas General Conference in 1980.

So from the pioneer days until 1980, was true doctrine taught, or not? Were all those leaders & theologians rejecting truth?

(All Protestants come under attack by Satan.)

_____________________
Posted By: Colin

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 09:17 PM

Originally Posted By: gordonb1

Rosangela, before resorting to Webster's New World Dictionary, please identify the Bible texts where you have seen Christ's self-existence proclaimed. Then we can stick with inspired sources which will explain themselves.

I'll help Rosangela, here, but she's welcome to agree. wink You, gordonb1, and I may not agree on this, though: you may not ignore this text. smile
Quote:
For as the Father hath life in himself, so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself. Jn 5:26

Yes, Christ has life in himself as God's Son since eternity. This view of Christ is not shared only among some Adventists - it used to, of course, be the church's general belief, too: other churches and leading individuals hold this view, too.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 09:30 PM

Quote:
Rosangela, before resorting to Webster's New World Dictionary, please identify the Bible texts where you have seen Christ's self-existence proclaimed. Then we can stick with inspired sources which will explain themselves.

I could do this, but this is not the point, Gordon. You said:
Quote:
Could the Sovereign of the Universe bring forth anything less than Divinity?
No, the Son had all the attributes of His Father.

What I'm saying is that self-existence is one of the attributes of the Father. If this attribute is lacking in the Son, the Son does not have "all the attributes of His Father." And what I'm also saying is that the Father was not originated by anyone (whatever the name you give to this attribute), but according to the antitrinitarian view the Son cannot possess this attribute.
Posted By: Colin

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 10:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
but according to the antitrinitarian view the Son cannot possess this attribute.

Na! Only the unbalanced antitrinitarians: for correct views, consider our church's early beliefs, officially till 1980, literally till 1930 with several exceptions, including Elders Judson Washburn (d. 1955) and Charles Longacre (d. 1958) as well as many members 'on the ground'.

Basically, we're going off topic here, y'know, as any notion that Christ was created of God and then made into divinity is wrong and excluded as impossible: end of discussion. I don't really want to know who wrote about it, other than to help whomever to sort out his confusion. We have at least two other threads dealing with the trinity debate, remember. grin
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/10/11 11:11 PM

Colin,

Whether Christ would have been created or begotten, it's clear that He would have been originated and brought to existence by the Father. There is no way around this.
Posted By: Colin

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/11/11 03:44 AM

Originating his body, not his nature! Don't forget Jn 5:26, after Jn 1:1.

It's only Seventh-day Adventist trinitarianism which denies the begotten Sonship of Christ, among trinitarians, that I know of. Odd, really, of us.

I'm not looking to split hairs with that first line: it's just the teaching & revelation of the Bible.
Posted By: asygo

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/11/11 04:23 AM

Colin,

Do you believe there was ever a time when the Son was not a distinct person from the Father?
Posted By: asygo

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/11/11 04:29 AM

Originally Posted By: gordonb1


Yes, Christ existed from eternity. That is when He was brought forth.

His "goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting5769 (margin ~ the days of eternity)" Micah 5:2.

"I was set up from everlasting5769 Proverbs 8:23.

I'm not sure what you mean. Mathematically speaking, if Jesus has been around from negative infinity and will continue until positive infinity, He has been and always will be around. So I'm not sure what you're saying.

Let me ask a very precise question: Was there a non-zero amount of time before Christ was brought forth? IOW, was there a time when Jesus had not yet been brought forth? Could the Father reminisce, "I remember the time before I brought you forth, when I was all by Myself....."?
Posted By: asygo

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/11/11 04:32 AM

Originally Posted By: gordonb1
No, the Son had all the attributes of His Father.

Including always existing?
Posted By: asygo

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/11/11 04:36 AM

Originally Posted By: JAK
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
But if Jesus had been created, the best thing He could be would be an angel (promoted into the Godhead).


Maybe that's what annoyed Lucifer so bad.

That is exactly the teaching being presented by the still-unknown author. Allegedly, Lucifer wanted to be promoted like Jesus was, and hence the great enmity toward Jesus.
Posted By: asygo

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/11/11 04:41 AM

Originally Posted By: JAK
So, obviously the angels themselves have (or had) some confusion about just what Jesus was or is. According to these quotes, he was not recognizable as "God" to the angels, since the recognizable "God" had to tell the angels that Jesus was also "God".

Not sure I'm OK with that...

Perhaps the Son has the habit of manifesting Himself in the form of His audience. To men, He was Jesus the Jewish carpenter. To angels, He was Michael the Archangel. And just like He had to clothe divinity with humanity when He was with men, maybe with angels He clothed His divinity with "angelity" (had to invent a word).

At Christ's baptism, the Father announced, "This is My Son." Perhaps the angels received a similar announcement. And when the top angel is mucking everything up, it's not surprising that some angels could get confused.
Posted By: asygo

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/11/11 04:45 AM

Originally Posted By: Kevin H
God in his unassuming nature allowed our pioneers to question the trinity (however the trinity was an optional doctrine that some members believed)and the church received the natural results: We began preaching the law the law the law until we were as dry as the hills of Gilboah.

That's an interesting idea worthy of some consideration.
Posted By: asygo

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/11/11 04:55 AM

Originally Posted By: gordonb1
please identify the Bible texts where you have seen Christ's self-existence proclaimed. Then we can stick with inspired sources which will explain themselves.

Quote:
With solemn dignity Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM." {DA 469.4}

Silence fell upon the vast assembly. The name of God, given to Moses to express the idea of the eternal presence, had been claimed as His own by this Galilean Rabbi. He had announced Himself to be the self-existent One, He who had been promised to Israel, "whose goings forth have been from of old, from the days of eternity." Micah 5:2, margin. {DA 469.5}

"Before Abraham was, I am." Christ is the preexistent, self-existent Son of God. The message He gave to Moses to give to the children of Israel was, "Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." {LHU 17.4}

I AM means an eternal presence; the past, present, and future are alike with God. {TMK 12.2}
Posted By: dedication

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/11/11 07:48 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Kevin H
God in his unassuming nature allowed our pioneers to question the trinity (however the trinity was an optional doctrine that some members believed)and the church received the natural results: We began preaching the law the law the law until we were as dry as the hills of Gilboah.

That's an interesting idea worthy of some consideration.


I agree with the above.
Many of the leaders had lost the true picture of Christ. They had slipped into legalism.

It was in 1888 that more glorious picture of Christ was BEGINNING to emerge.

Obviously there was something missing in the way the Pioneers presented Christ for EGW wrote:

Quote:
...the matchless charms of Christ....When Brother Waggoner brought out these ideas in Minneapolis, it was the first clear teaching on this subject from any human lips I had heard, excepting the conversations between myself and my husband. I have said to myself, It is because God has presented it to me in vision that I see it so clearly, and they cannot see it because they have never had it presented to them as I have. And when another presented it, every fiber of my heart said, Amen.--Ms 5, p. 10. (Sermon, Rome, New York, June 19, 1889.) {5MR 219.1}
Posted By: dedication

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/11/11 08:03 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: gordonb1
please identify the Bible texts where you have seen Christ's self-existence proclaimed. Then we can stick with inspired sources which will explain themselves.

Quote:
With solemn dignity Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM." {DA 469.4}

Silence fell upon the vast assembly. The name of God, given to Moses to express the idea of the eternal presence, had been claimed as His own by this Galilean Rabbi. He had announced Himself to be the self-existent One, He who had been promised to Israel, "whose goings forth have been from of old, from the days of eternity." Micah 5:2, margin. {DA 469.5}

"Before Abraham was, I am." Christ is the preexistent, self-existent Son of God. The message He gave to Moses to give to the children of Israel was, "Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." {LHU 17.4}

I AM means an eternal presence; the past, present, and future are alike with God. {TMK 12.2}


That's an excellent quote!

Here's another --
Notice that it was Christ in the lowly burning bush.
The bush enshrined the Infinite, all merciful God!

Quote:
The burning bush, in which Christ appeared to Moses, revealed God. The symbol chosen for the representation of the Deity was a lowly shrub, that seemingly had no attractions. This enshrined the Infinite. The all-merciful God shrouded His glory in a most humble type, that Moses could look upon it and live.DA 24


Here's another --
Christ's face shines with the same eternal glory as the Father's.
Christ's throne is from everlasting to everlasting.

Quote:
That the Maker of all worlds, the Arbiter of all destinies, should lay aside His glory and humiliate Himself from love to man will ever excite the wonder and adoration of the universe. As the nations of the saved look upon their Redeemer and behold the eternal glory of the Father shining in His countenance; as they behold His throne, which is from everlasting to everlasting, and know that His kingdom is to have no end, they break forth in rapturous song: "Worthy, worthy, is the Lamb that was slain, and hath redeemed us to God, by His own most precious blood!" {AG 98.3}
Posted By: Elle

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/11/11 10:46 AM

Gee, you guys these quotes has no authority. You all sound and act like Mormons who doesn’t know their Bible or choose to be blind to what it says to follow every word their prophets says even if it contradicts the Word of God. Ellen White would of never approve of this.

No where in the Bible that I’m aware says that Christ was self-existant, or immortal. However, the Bible makes clear that the Father is the only one that has immortallity. Then other texts that says the Father gives things to Christ like authority, life, etc… And other texts that says that the Father is above Christ. So that’s what we got and should be the end of the question right there. Going beyond what the Bible actually says, we become worshippers of Baal of Peor – the Lord of the gaps. We add or we take what other man says to complement the gaps we do not understand and then we end up contradicting what actually is said.
Posted By: Elle

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/11/11 11:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: gordonb1

No, the Son had all the attributes of His Father.

Including immortality?


I do believe that the son has all the attributes of His Father as you say, but that needs to be qualify. What our finite mind understand what is Divinity is very limited for we are not divine and cannot relate to it. Plus we are fallen from the status we once possess making it even harder to grasp.

Personally, I struggle to understand these dimensions. All I know is what the Bible says.

Is divinity defined by being self-existent or immortal? If we hold to this limited definition, then we need to conclude with our so "great intellectual capacity" that Christ was not divine because these was given to him. We know for Jesus to die on the cross, His immortality had to be given back to the Father. The Bible says also that we will be change into an immortal body. Does that mean we then have self-existance? – I do not believe that and can show it with scriptures that it is not so.

I will not conclude that Christ is not divine or make Him a “little god” like the Johovah Witness does just because of our limited understanding of divinity. I rather stick with what God gave us to know.

Jesus-Christ was the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD. Right there that is different and beyond from all that is created including Lucifer by which all was & is through Jesus. That’s why this make Jesus the I AM, for all things lives through him. This doesn’t mean He originated self-existance. It was given to Him by the Father by which he pass it on to all of creation. Jesus is the mediator of life. There’s no other. Life is imparted through His word which is Spirit.

Jesus did not begot all of creation, He spoke them into existance. There’s a big difference there and that’s how set’s Jesus apart from all of creation. How Jesus was begotten we do not know.

Let’s ponder on what God reveal to us with our own children. The father of the family owns all things in the family household. The father gives to his son some (or all at his death) of his possession, his knowledge, his wisdom, his food(life), some authority when he grows up, etc… Just because these are given to his son, does that makes his son less partaker of his name and genetic makeup? No. His son has his name and his attributes only with the fact that he is begotten of his seed.
Posted By: Elle

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/11/11 12:55 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: gordonb1


Yes, Christ existed from eternity. That is when He was brought forth.

His "goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting5769 (margin ~ the days of eternity)" Micah 5:2.

"I was set up from everlasting5769 Proverbs 8:23.

I'm not sure what you mean. Mathematically speaking, if Jesus has been around from negative infinity and will continue until positive infinity, He has been and always will be around. So I'm not sure what you're saying.

Let me ask a very precise question: Was there a non-zero amount of time before Christ was brought forth? IOW, was there a time when Jesus had not yet been brought forth? Could the Father reminisce, "I remember the time before I brought you forth, when I was all by Myself....."?

Here’s another great area of speculation and denominational intend blindness relating to the English translated word “eternity”.

There is of no certainty how and where in scriptures the word Olam(h5769) or Aion(g165) should be translated as “eternal” or “everlasting”. This is plainly stated by many great theologians. It is sad that this fact is not translated to the average Christian or even to the preachers and teachers who seems totally convince that these words means nothing else other then never ending time whether past or future.

Strongs defines Aion : “from the same as 104 [aei, ‘continued duration']; prop. an age; by extens. perpetuity (also past); by impl. the world; spec. (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future).”

So properly it means “an age,” and it only means by extension “perpetuity.” Thus, he’s saying that it can mean either a limited period of time or an unlimited period of time. However, to make it an unlimited period of time requires that you extend its basic usual meaning, which is limited.

Since a "limited" or "unlimited" translation of these words is debatable, Young has translated this word as “age or age-lasting”. Other translators like Rotherham, Wilson, and Noah(Concordant translation) has also corrected these to reflect more to the proper meaning as Young did.

Olam : H5769 `owlam o-lawm' from H5956; properly, concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always. Compare H5331, H5703.

H5956 `alam aw-lam' a primitive root; to veil from sight, i.e. conceal (literally or figuratively).


Aion got it’s meaning from Olam which properly means a veil/concealed time. So just from this, I get that G-d doesn't want us to know right now and purposely veil this to us.

Here is what Dr. Bullinger explains

“The root meaning of aion is expressed by the Heb. olam . . . which denotes indefinite, unknown or concealed duration; just as we speak of ‘the patriarchal age', or ‘the golden age', etc. Hence, it has come to denote any given period of time, characterized by a special form of Divine administration or dispensation.”


So let’s don’t get into the unknown here and go beyond what the Bible says where G-d, in His wisdom, did not want to reveal the specific to us now. Olam can mean a limited or unlimted time. Relating to Jesus begotteness – it may mean that before He was begotten He didn’t exist and the Father was alone at that time. We just don't know and can only assume via how we begat our own sons. But let's be frank that it is an assumption and our understanding is finite. It is a mystery – conceal to us what it really means. All we know there is much emphasis by the Father that Jesus is to be known as His ONLY begotten Son. So Jesus is set apart from anyone else and that should be enough for us to know now and wait for the "age" to come for the Father to unconceal this mystery.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/11/11 02:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Elle
How Jesus was begotten we do not know.


True. But we do know, at least, when. Jesus was begotten "when the fullness of time was come." That is, when Mary brought forth.

That it is said He was "begotten from eternity" is akin to it being said He was "slain from the foundation of the world." Both of these references speak to the fact that the event was prophesied, planned, expected and would most certainly take place. Obviously, Jesus was not slain during creation week. Neither was He previously begotten.

John 1 is clear that "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." At that time of His becoming flesh, He was begotten. And He was the only one of the Godhead to have ever been begotten. This is why John 3:16 speaks of Him saying, "only begotten Son." None of the other members of the Godhead have ever had, nor ever will have, the dubious privilege of having become a son.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Elle

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/11/11 03:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Elle
How Jesus was begotten we do not know.


True. But we do know, at least, when. Jesus was begotten "when the fullness of time was come." That is, when Mary brought forth.

That it is said He was "begotten from eternity" is akin to it being said He was "slain from the foundation of the world." Both of these references speak to the fact that the event was prophesied, planned, expected and would most certainly take place. Obviously, Jesus was not slain during creation week. Neither was He previously begotten.

John 1 is clear that "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." At that time of His becoming flesh, He was begotten. And He was the only one of the Godhead to have ever been begotten. This is why John 3:16 speaks of Him saying, "only begotten Son." None of the other members of the Godhead have ever had, nor ever will have, the dubious privilege of having become a son.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


AV Pr 8:22 . The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

AV Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

AV Pr 8:24 When [there were] no depths, I was brought forth; when [there were] no fountains abounding with water.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/11/11 05:56 PM

Quote:
AV Pr 8:22 . The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

AV Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

AV Pr 8:24 When [there were] no depths, I was brought forth; when [there were] no fountains abounding with water.

This is poetic language. The poem is speaking about the wisdom of God, and of course the wisdom of God did not have a beginning.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/11/11 06:03 PM

Quote:
This doesn’t mean He originated self-existance. It was given to Him by the Father

???
Self-existence means both that your life wasn't originated by anyone and that it isn't preserved by anyone.
Posted By: dedication

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/11/11 08:25 PM

DA 531 "In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived."

Letter 398 (1906) " In Jesus is our life derived. In Him is life, that is original, unborrowed, underived life. In us there is a streamlet from the fountain of life. In Him is the fountain of life."
Posted By: Colin

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/11/11 10:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
AV Pr 8:22 . The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

AV Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

AV Pr 8:24 When [there were] no depths, I was brought forth; when [there were] no fountains abounding with water.

This is poetic language. The poem is speaking about the wisdom of God, and of course the wisdom of God did not have a beginning.

NO, Rosangela: that's clearly how 'we' read those texts, TODAY, not how they are quoted in Patriarchs & Prophets, chapter ONE. We have to let history SPEAK.
Posted By: dedication

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/12/11 01:45 AM

I think we need to let the Bible speak.

EGW simply quotes a whole string of texts without any hint that she is trying to establish Christ's origin --her purpose was the purpose of showing that the sovereign God was not alone in Creation. Among that list of texts is also:
"His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6.
""In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God." John 1:1, 2.




Solomon, as one of his literary ways of teaching, personifies wisdom as a woman, whom we should choose to hear and follow in Proverbs eight.

Personification: “is the representation of an abstraction as a person"

Yet we need to understand that WISDOM here is an attribute of God

Christ is the personification of all the attributes of God.
Christ is the wisdom of God, (1 Cor. 1:24)
Christ is the power of God (1 Cor. 1:24)
Christ is the righteousness of God (1 Cor. 1:30)
Christ is the truth of God, (John 14:6)
Christ is the love of God. (Romans 8:39)
Christ is mercy and goodness and justice.
Christ is the personification of all the attributes of God.

Yet, the deduction that since Christ is the personification of WISDOM, (as well as all the other attributes of God) that this means Proverbs is defining Christ’s origin before the incarnation, rather than the attribute of wisdom, is a faulty deduction.

Yes, Christ was there Creating. But to say WISDOM itself is literally CHRIST, is not correct.

For instance, was Christ only a spectator at creation?

Proverbs 8 says that when God prepared the heavens, Wisdom was there.
When God put the water systems in place, Wisdom was there.

The creation of all things shows the wonderful wisdom within the Godhead. That wisdom is displayed in the Creative Power and marvelous design.
God delights in wisdom and understanding, truth and uprighteness.


We know from scripture that Christ was not just a spectator (He wasn't just "there") at Creation, He was the ACTIVE CREATOR for John tells us that:

The Word [Jesus] was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3)

Posted By: dedication

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/12/11 02:07 AM

Quote:
"The Bible says also that we will be change into an immortal body. Does that mean we then have self-existance?"

No, that life comes from Christ the one whose life is underived, unborrowed, self existant.

Even when given immortal bodies -- if any who are given that gift were to separate themselves from Christ and go their own self willed ways they would sooner or later loose life.

Why do you think there's a tree of life in the New Earth?
No created being has life apart from God.
Posted By: Elle

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/12/11 02:51 AM

Originally Posted By: dedication
DA 531 "In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived."

Letter 398 (1906) " In Jesus is our life derived. In Him is life, that is original, unborrowed, underived life. In us there is a streamlet from the fountain of life. In Him is the fountain of life."


Show me from scriptures the above.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/12/11 04:12 AM

Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: dedication
DA 531 "In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived."

Letter 398 (1906) " In Jesus is our life derived. In Him is life, that is original, unborrowed, underived life. In us there is a streamlet from the fountain of life. In Him is the fountain of life."


Show me from scriptures the above.


Here are some scriptures for that.

Ellen WhiteHoly Bible
DA 531 "In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived."Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. Yea, before the day was I am... (Isaiah 43:10-11,13)
In Jesus is our life derived.For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light. (Psalm 36:9)

And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. (Revelation 21:6)

In Him is life, that is original, unborrowed, underived life.Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (John 8:58)

...Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. (Revelation 1:17-18)

In Him is the fountain of life.Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Colin

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/12/11 05:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
This doesn’t mean He originated self-existance. It was given to Him by the Father

???
Self-existence means both that your life wasn't originated by anyone and that it isn't preserved by anyone.

Rosangela, you're talking like a trinitarian: we as a church didn't used to talk like that or believe like that, as trinitarianism has to be assumed from the Bible as it is not found in it; hence, our church used to be non-trinitarian, formally till 1980 but at least till Ellen White died and all who agreed with her eventually died, too.

Jn 5:26 cannot refer to Christ's incarnation, since he pre-existed as God's Son, as a divine person: nevertheless, as God's Son - even before Bethlehem - his, too, is the fulness of the Godhead. Why specify anything further to try to prove the point when nothing further except a trinitarian formula of "musts" can be named. Yes, trinitarian definitions can be unbiblical, whether untrue or simply delving into the unknown and unknowable.

The essence of the Godhead isn't community or eternity or self-existence: it's holiness, with aspects that belong to that.
Posted By: Elle

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/12/11 10:39 AM

Tx GC, Sorry but I cannot comment now, nor post for the next two weeks.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/12/11 03:48 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Self-existence means both that your life wasn't originated by anyone and that it isn't preserved by anyone.

Rosangela, you're talking like a trinitarian

Colin, I'm talking about the meaning of a word according to the dictionary, both now and at Ellen White's time. And I'm talking about an attribute of God: God is not originated by anyone. If any being is originated by anyone, this being cannot be called God.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/12/11 04:00 PM

Quote:
Jn 5:26 cannot refer to Christ's incarnation

I disagree, since Christ was speaking specifically of His work as the Messiah. The meaning is that, even as a human being, Christ had life in Himself; He gave life to His own body. The gospel of John speaks clearly about that in several passages.

"For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man."
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/12/11 04:06 PM

Quote:
The essence of the Godhead isn't community or eternity or self-existence: it's holiness, with aspects that belong to that.

If that was the case, the holy angels could belong to the Godhead.

The Jews had never before heard such words from human lips, and a convicting influence attended them; for it seemed that divinity flashed through humanity as Jesus said, "I and my Father are one." The words of Christ were full of deep meaning as he put forth the claim that he and the Father were of one substance, possessing the same attributes.--The Signs of the Times, Nov. 27, 1893, p. 54.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/12/11 06:22 PM

If the Holy Spirit is an impersonal presence, and if Jesus isn't eternal in the same sense the Father is, well, then, that means the Father existed for an eternity by Himself. And, since Jesus created everything, that means the Father existed for an eternity all by Himself in a void and empty universe. I prefer to believe the Father, Son, and Spirit have cohabited for eternity, which I also happen to believe is the truth. The idea the Father existed all alone in a universe devoid of anything is too depressing to think about.
Posted By: Colin

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/13/11 05:07 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Jn 5:26 cannot refer to Christ's incarnation

I disagree, since Christ was speaking specifically of His work as the Messiah. The meaning is that, even as a human being, Christ had life in Himself; He gave life to His own body. The gospel of John speaks clearly about that in several passages.

"For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man."

Okay, but also in his pre-existence. Jn 3:16 says God gave his pre-existing, begotten Son, and Phil 2:6 refers to that pre-existence, while the Old Testament also knows of the Son of God and speaks reverently and in awe of him. That calls for faith, not trinitarian formulas.

As for holy angels, who allowed them to be equal to their holy Creator??? Please don't be facetious. smile

On self-existence, of course he's divine: Jn 1:1 and Ps 2:7,12, and other texts. Jesus' begotten Sonship is a mystery; yet, it confirms his divinity rather than denying it, as he is God of God. It may begin his existence as the Son of God, but it continues his deity as the Word of God.

Only with the trinitarian thinking in our church, really the latter half of the 20th century, the co-existence theory of Christ's divine pre-existence arose. Being the begotten Son of God from "the days of eternity" (NOT just Adventists teach this) doesn't limit his deity, just his existence as the Son among his other pre-existent identities, such as Michael, the Word, which he is from the beginning.
Posted By: dedication

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/13/11 06:04 AM

Originally Posted By: Colin
Originally Posted By: Rosangela

Self-existence means both that your life wasn't originated by anyone and that it isn't preserved by anyone.

Rosangela, you're talking like a trinitarian: we as a church didn't used to talk like that or believe like that,


Seems to me Rosangela is talking about this the same as EGW.

Quote:
DA 530 Jesus declared, "I am the resurrection, and the life." In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived. "He that hath the Son hath life." 1 John 5:12. The divinity of Christ is the believer's assurance of eternal life.

"In him [Christ] was life; and the life was the light of men." It is not physical life that is here specified, but immortality, the life which is exclusively the property of God. ... the life of Christ was unborrowed. No one can take this life from Him. "I lay it down of myself," He said. In Him was life, original, unborrowed, underived. Marnatha 294
Posted By: dedication

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/13/11 06:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Colin
trinitarianism has to be assumed from the Bible as it is not found in it; hence, our church used to be non-trinitarian,


The word "trinity" isn't in the Bible, but the concept is!

Is. 44.6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, AND his Redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.


(Here we saw the two in ONE)


Is. 48.16-17
Come ye near to me, hear this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there I AM: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, has sent me.
Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God.


(Here we have all three in ONE) This is a very interesting verse. It sets forth the eternity of Christ, and reveals that the God and His Spirit sent HIM!

The above words were spoken by CHRIST--
and HE is sent by the LORD GOD, and HIS SPIRIT-- and yet He testofies that He is the ONE AND ONLY and EVERLASTING GOD.

There are many verses, but space is limited.




Posted By: dedication

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/13/11 06:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Colin
John 5:26 cannot refer to Christ's incarnation, since he pre-existed as God's Son, as a divine person: nevertheless, as God's Son - even before Bethlehem - his, too, is the fulness of the Godhead. Why specify anything further to try to prove the point when nothing further except a trinitarian formula of "musts" can be named.


John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

"In Him was life, original, unborrowed, underived... While bearing human nature, He [Christ] was dependent upon the Omnipotent for His life. In His humanity, He laid hold of the divinity of God; and this every member of the human family has the privilege of doing. . . . {Mar 302.4}

So yes, it does refer to His incarnation as a human being, without denying His pre-existance.
His human life was dependent upon God. As a human He fully rested on God the Father's power, not His own.


Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest:
1:35 The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.









.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/13/11 03:42 PM

Hi, Dedication,

It seems to me the EGW quote above refers to Christ's spíritual life, and not to His physical life, as is indicated by the phrase "and this every member of the human family has the privilege of doing."

The context of the sentence is:

Had he not been fully human, Christ could not have been our substitute. He could not have worked out in humanity that perfection of character which it is the privilege of all to reach. He was the light and the life of the world. He came to this earth to work in behalf of men, that they might no longer be under the control of Satanic agencies. But while bearing human nature, he was dependent upon the Omnipotent for his life. In his humanity, he laid hold of the divinity of God; and this every member of the human family has the privilege of doing. Christ did nothing that human nature may not do if it partakes of the divine nature. {ST, June 17, 1897 par. 8}

What is your opinion about it?
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/13/11 03:50 PM

Quote:
On self-existence, of course he's divine: Jn 1:1 and Ps 2:7,12, and other texts. Jesus' begotten Sonship is a mystery; yet, it confirms his divinity rather than denying it, as he is God of God. It may begin his existence as the Son of God, but it continues his deity as the Word of God.

Colin, we could discuss this ad infinitum, but the truth is that, according to the antitrinitarian view, the Son was originated by the Father, so He lacks one of the attributes of God and cannot qualify as God.
Posted By: dedication

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/14/11 06:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Hi, Dedication,

It seems to me the EGW quote above refers to Christ's spíritual life, and not to His physical life, as is indicated by the phrase "and this every member of the human family has the privilege of doing."

The context of the sentence is:

Had he not been fully human, Christ could not have been our substitute. He could not have worked out in humanity that perfection of character which it is the privilege of all to reach. He was the light and the life of the world. He came to this earth to work in behalf of men, that they might no longer be under the control of Satanic agencies. But while bearing human nature, he was dependent upon the Omnipotent for his life. In his humanity, he laid hold of the divinity of God; and this every member of the human family has the privilege of doing. Christ did nothing that human nature may not do if it partakes of the divine nature. {ST, June 17, 1897 par. 8}

What is your opinion about it?
In His human state Christ made Himself totally dependant upon the Father. Spiritually and physically.

So yes, I agree it is speaking of His dependence upon the Father in all aspects of His humanity.

To me that is a key to understanding many of the texts that seem contradictory.

In His original state Christ had and exercised all the attributes of God, for He was God with the Father.

In His human life HE COULD HAVE used His divine attributes, but instead He made Himself fully dependant upon the Father as His source of strength, power, wisdom and yes the life of His humanity as well.

Bible critics argue over Who resurrected Christ --
in one place Christ says "I have power to lay down my life and take it up again".
So some say He resurrected Himself.
Yet there are dozens of texts saying that God the Father raised Jesus Christ.

I see it as Christ had the power and the ability to raise Himself, and He could have called on that power had He chosen to. It was still His even though He had "laid it aside".

But He didn't use that power -- having taken on humanity, He, in all things depended on the Father like we must depend upon Him.

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up,
Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

An interesting quote:

Originally Posted By: from EGW
It was a difficult task for the Prince of Life to carry out the plan which He had undertaken for the salvation of man, in clothing His divinity with humanity. He had received honor in the heavenly courts and was familiar with absolute power. It was as difficult for Him to keep the level of humanity as for men to rise above the low level of their depraved natures and be partakers of the divine nature.
Christ was put to the closest test, requiring the strength of all His faculties to resist the inclination, when in danger, to use His power to deliver Himself from peril and triumph over the power of the prince of darkness.{Con 85}
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/14/11 03:46 PM

Well, I think I have a somewhat different opinion from you. The three persons of the Godhead were together at Christ's incarnation, at His baptism, and yes, at His resurrection. The Bible says that the Father resurrected Christ, but it also says the Spirit resurrected Him (1 Pet. 3:18), and Christ said, "'Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.' ... He was speaking of the temple of His body" (John 2:19-21).

Quote:
But He didn't use that power -- having taken on humanity, He, in all things depended on the Father like we must depend upon Him.

He had to depend on the Father in all that relates to overcoming sin. He didn't need to depend on the Father, for instance, for things we don't have the power or the authority to do, like forgiving sins and receiving worship.

Ellen White, in the well-known passage of The Desire of Ages, says:

Quote:
When the voice of the mighty angel was heard at Christ's tomb, saying, Thy Father calls Thee, the Saviour came forth from the grave by the life that was in Himself. Now was proved the truth of His words, "I lay down My life, that I might take it again. . . . I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again." Now was fulfilled the prophecy He had spoken to the priests and rulers, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." John 10:17, 18; 2:19. {DA 785.2}

Over the rent sepulcher of Joseph, Christ had proclaimed in triumph, "I am the resurrection, and the life." These words could be spoken only by the Deity. All created beings live by the will and power of God. They are dependent recipients of the life of God. From the highest seraph to the humblest animate being, all are replenished from the Source of life. Only He who is one with God could say, I have power to lay down My life, and I have power to take it again. In His divinity, Christ possessed the power to break the bonds of death. {DA 785.3}


She also says:

Quote:
All that comprised the life and intelligence of Jesus remained with His body in the sepulcher; and when He came forth it was as a whole being; He did not have to summon His spirit from heaven. He had power to lay down His life and to take it up again (3SP 203, 204). {5BC 1150.6}


If He didn't resurrect Himself, the sentence which says that He didn't have to summon His spirit from heaven doesn't make sense. Although human, Christ was still God. It was He who sustained the life of His own body. That's why He had power to lay down His life and to take it up again.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/14/11 07:02 PM

Well said, Rosangela, and nice quotes. I agree. I sort of see it as the Father saying to Jesus, "You have my permission to raise yourself now. It is time!" And Jesus promptly does so.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Colin

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/14/11 09:06 PM

Whatever happened to Jesus, remember that whatever he did we can do too: That's why he operated strictly as a human despite having a joint nature.

Hence, while having the power of God, being God, he didn't use it himself but his Father worked through him: the resurrection morning shall be Jesus raising the sleeping saints; Jesus' resurrection morning was his Father raising him. smile
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/14/11 09:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Colin
Whatever happened to Jesus, remember that whatever he did we can do too: That's why he operated strictly as a human despite having a joint nature.

Hence, while having the power of God, being God, he didn't use it himself but his Father worked through him: the resurrection morning shall be Jesus raising the sleeping saints; Jesus' resurrection morning was his Father raising him. smile


This appears not to take into account the fact that Jesus had said "It is finished!" on the cross. That ended His earthly life, and simultaneously ended the conflict with Satan in a major way. It put Him beyond the reach of Satan and his temptations. After Jesus was raised to life, there was no chance of His sinning again, was there? Yet that was finished even before that moment--going back to those words of finality spoken from the cross.

Once Jesus died, His experiment with mortal humanity was ended. His divinity did not die, only His humanity did. His divinity was not subject to God the Father as His humanity was. It was Jesus' divinity that raised Him from the grave.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/14/11 10:06 PM

Quote:
Hence, while having the power of God, being God, he didn't use it himself but his Father worked through him: the resurrection morning shall be Jesus raising the sleeping saints; Jesus' resurrection morning was his Father raising him. smile

To the believer, Christ is the resurrection and the life. In our Saviour the life that was lost through sin is restored; for He has life in Himself to quicken whom He will. He is invested with the right to give immortality. The life that He laid down in humanity, He takes up again, and gives to humanity. "I am come," He said, "that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." "Whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." "Whoso eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 10:10; 4:14; John 6:54. {DA 786.4}
Posted By: dedication

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/15/11 04:21 AM



Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you,

Acts 4:10 by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead,

Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 13:29- 30 they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. But God raised him from the dead:

Romans 6:4 as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1 Cor. 15:15 we have testified of God that he raised up Christ:

2 Cor. 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus,

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;

Eph. 1:19-20 the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

1 Thess. 1:9-10 serve the living and true God;
And wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Posted By: dedication

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/15/11 04:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Well said, Rosangela, and nice quotes. I agree. I sort of see it as the Father saying to Jesus, "You have my permission to raise yourself now. It is time!" And Jesus promptly does so.




This came up in another discussion. But it seems some here believe Christ was conscious while He was in the tomb.
It's as if they believe He was two persons in one body. The human person and another divine person. So the human person dies, but the divine person just keeps right on living, hearing, responding.

I don't see it that way.
Christ was FULLY human and fully divine, not split into two separate compartments.

When He died He was FULLY unconscious. To say otherwise would be saying He didn't really die.

Whatever, "His divinity did not die" means, it did NOT mean that half of Him just kept right on living in a conscious way.

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Once Jesus died, His experiment with mortal humanity was ended. His divinity did not die, only His humanity did. His divinity was not subject to God the Father as His humanity was. It was Jesus' divinity that raised Him from the grave.


When Christ took on humanity He took it on for eternity. He took Adam's place at the head of the human race to regain the inheritance that mankind lost through Adam.

I don't think we have any comprehension what it really cost Christ to redeem mankind. It wasn't just a 33 year experiment with being human, He Who was equal with God, Who was God with the Father, gave up a lot to redeem us. Yes, He was highly exalted when He returned to heaven!!! But still He bears limitation now, having taken upon Himself humanity, that He didn't have before.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/15/11 08:00 AM

Jesus did have His divinity while on earth.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Jesus gave the rabbis an evidence of His divinity by showing that He read their hearts. Ever since the healing at Bethesda they had been plotting His death. Thus they were themselves breaking the law which they professed to be defending. "Did not Moses give you the law," He said, "and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill Me?" {DA 456.2}

Jesus was the Majesty of heaven, the beloved Commander of the angels, whose delight was to do his pleasure. He was one with God, in the bosom of the Father; yet He thought it not a thing to be desired to be equal with God while man was lost in sin and misery. He stepped down from his throne. He left his crown and royal sceptre, and clothed his divinity with humanity. He humbled Himself even to the death of the cross, that man might be exalted to a seat with Him upon his throne. In Him we have a complete offering, an infinite sacrifice, a mighty Saviour, who is able to save unto the uttermost all that come unto God by Him. In love He comes to reveal the Father, to reconcile man to God, to make him a new creature, renewed after the image of Him who created him. {BEcho, March 15, 1893 par. 2}


To say "clothed His divinity" is not the same as saying "left His divinity" or "gave up His divinity." His divinity, which He ever retained, is what raised Him from the dead.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Still seeking to give a true direction to her faith, Jesus declared, "I am the resurrection, and the life." In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived. "He that hath the Son hath life." 1 John 5:12. The divinity of Christ is the believer's assurance of eternal life. "He that believeth in Me," said Jesus, "though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?" Christ here looks forward to the time of His second coming. Then the righteous dead shall be raised incorruptible, and the living righteous shall be translated to heaven without seeing death. The miracle which Christ was about to perform, in raising Lazarus from the dead, would represent the resurrection of all the righteous dead. By His word and His works He declared Himself the Author of the resurrection. He who Himself was soon to die upon the cross stood with the keys of death, a conqueror of the grave, and asserted His right and power to give eternal life. {DA 530.3}


That underlined part I find rather interesting. We typically think of His death as being the key to our eternal life. But that sentence tells us that it is Christ's divinity that is responsible for our resurrection and life.

And here is another one.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Over the rent sepulcher of Joseph, Christ had proclaimed in triumph, "I am the resurrection, and the life." These words could be spoken only by the Deity. All created beings live by the will and power of God. They are dependent recipients of the life of God. From the highest seraph to the humblest animate being, all are replenished from the Source of life. Only He who is one with God could say, I have power to lay down My life, and I have power to take it again. In His divinity, Christ possessed the power to break the bonds of death. {DA 785.3}


But it can hardly be more clear than in what Mrs. White sent to the Youth's Instructor.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
"I am the resurrection, and the life." He who had said, "I lay down my life, that I might take it again," came forth from the grave to life that was in himself. Humanity died: divinity did not die. In his divinity, Christ possessed the power to break the bonds of death. He declares that he has life in himself to quicken whom he will. {YI, August 4, 1898 par. 1}


That makes it clear that Christ's divinity never died. This being the case, Jesus was well positioned to make the promise that "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up." Jesus does not say that His Father would raise Him. This is significant. And Jesus keeps His promises.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/15/11 08:08 AM

Originally Posted By: dedication
When He died He was FULLY unconscious. To say otherwise would be saying He didn't really die.

Such a statement seems a bit presumptuous unless you have scripture for it.

I am not God to know whether or not you are right. The Bible does not give us this detail. Neither does Mrs. White. (Unless you know of a passage that supports your claim, in which case please share it with us.)

The fact is, dedication, we are speaking about our omniscient, omnipotent, eternal Creator God here, who says our wisdom is foolishness with Him. I dare not be so arrogant as to presume to know whether or not His divinity could lose consciousness for 36 hours or more.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: dedication

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/15/11 08:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: dedication
When He died He was FULLY unconscious. To say otherwise would be saying He didn't really die.

Such a statement seems a bit presumptuous unless you have scripture for it.

I am not God to know whether or not you are right. The Bible does not give us this detail. Neither does Mrs. White. (Unless you know of a passage that supports your claim, in which case please share it with us.)

The fact is, dedication, we are speaking about our omniscient, omnipotent, eternal Creator God here, who says our wisdom is foolishness with Him. I dare not be so arrogant as to presume to know whether or not His divinity could lose consciousness for 36 hours or more.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.



There are LOTS of scripture that say Christ died.
And LOTS lots of texts that say God raised Jesus.
I quoted a whole bunch of them just today.
"Christ died for the ungodly."—Romans 5:6.

If we don't believe that Christ REALLY DIED and rose again where does that leave the whole atoning sacrifice?

Yet to imply He was conscious is saying He didn't really die.
I believe, when scripture says that He died, that HE LITERALLY DIED.

You seem to think I denied Christ's divinty -- not sure how you came to that conclusion as I wrote:
"Christ was FULLY human and FULLY Divine."

I don't believe "divinity" is another person, but an attribute, it was part of Who Christ is. I don't pretend to understand everything, as to how the spark of divinity remained alive, but I don't believe divinity has a consciousness of it's own outside of the personhood of Christ.

If I'm chastized for saying Christ in death was unconsious as "being a bit presumptious" then a lot of things in this whole thread should be challenged as presumptious as they deal with things far less clear than the fact that CHRIST DIED for the ungodly.

That's what makes the resurrection so important! He REALLY did die.

Quote:
2 Cor.
15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; you are yet in your sins.
15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.


Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/15/11 09:01 AM

Dedication,

I certainly agree with you that much of this thread has been focused on things which are beyond our ken. I think Mrs. White tells us that on subjects like these, silence is golden. It seems, nonetheless, a topic that is causing increased division in our church, and therefore merits some attention. Sticking by the Bible is important, and the Bible does say Christ died. His humanity died.

But, is humanity omniscient? omnipotent? When Christ knew the Pharisees' thoughts, Ellen White credits His divinity for it. It seems obvious that divinity does indeed include thoughts, and thoughts require consciousness. If divinity did not die, I can make a case for saying that Christ's thoughts did not die. I'm not going to do that. I think it's presumptuous, as I said. It is not important. What is important, is that the Bible says Jesus claimed He would raise Himself from the dead, and I believe He did just that. If He did so without thinking, that's pretty amazing, wouldn't you say? smile

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Colin

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/16/11 04:50 AM

Yes, deity cannot die, being holy: did you realise that it is by nature not subject to death.

God's Son, becoming a man, became subject to death having taken mortal, sinful flesh as his own: it was the Author of life, God's Son, who died. His body consisted mysteriously of two natures, but living as a man, he physically died and he was unconscious in death, asleep - given he was resurrected; he "tasted death for every man", tasting the anguish of the second death of the judgement on sin.

God died for our sins: God in the person of his Son died in human flesh. Clear? Okay, God in the person of his Son (that's how Ellen White worded it) was able both to become a man and to die as a man.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/16/11 05:53 PM

When Christ became human He renounced to the use of His omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence. I agree that He wasn't two persons, although He was both human and divine at the same time. Therefore, when He was sleeping, for instance, I believe He was really unconscious. The same would apply to His death.
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/17/11 07:51 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: gordonb1


Yes, Christ existed from eternity. That is when He was brought forth.

His "goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting5769 (margin ~ the days of eternity)" Micah 5:2.

"I was set up from everlasting5769 Proverbs 8:23.

I'm not sure what you mean. Mathematically speaking, if Jesus has been around from negative infinity and will continue until positive infinity, He has been and always will be around. So I'm not sure what you're saying.

Let me ask a very precise question: Was there a non-zero amount of time before Christ was brought forth? IOW, was there a time when Jesus had not yet been brought forth? Could the Father reminisce, "I remember the time before I brought you forth, when I was all by Myself....."?


Arnold: I'm not sure what you mean..

Gordon:
Hi Arnold - Yes Jesus was brought forth in the days of eternity and from that point was in close fellowship with His Father. He has everlasting life (as we all hope to) and has always been one with the Father (in mind, character and purpose), just as with the disciples in John 17. ("That they may be one, even as we are one" - v.22)

The Father's name is in Him (in Christ, 'the Angel [messenger] of the Lord', the Son of God who led the Hebrews through the wilderness). (Exodus 23:21)

The Son of God was always subject to the Father (the Ancient of Days) and will be at the last day:

"And when all things shall be subdued unto him (Christ), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (The Father) that put all things under him (Christ), that God may be all in all." (1 Corinthians 15:28).

The Father is "The God of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Ephesians 1:17)

The Son is "the Lord's Christ" (Luke 2:26) [the Lord's Anointed One]

Who anointed Jesus? The Father:"How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power." (Acts 10:38)

"God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him." (John 3:34)

______________________________
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/17/11 08:41 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: gordonb1


Yes, Christ existed from eternity. That is when He was brought forth.

His "goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting5769 (margin ~ the days of eternity)" Micah 5:2.

"I was set up from everlasting5769 Proverbs 8:23.

I'm not sure what you mean. Mathematically speaking, if Jesus has been around from negative infinity and will continue until positive infinity, He has been and always will be around. So I'm not sure what you're saying.

Let me ask a very precise question: Was there a non-zero amount of time before Christ was brought forth? IOW, was there a time when Jesus had not yet been brought forth? Could the Father reminisce, "I remember the time before I brought you forth, when I was all by Myself....."?


Some will reject the Saviour because He is the Son of God, and not God the Father. "He can't be Divine, can't do the job". But this is rejecting God's Plan. God says He gave His Only Begotten Son to save a lost race. God knows the cost of redemption - who are we to argue with Heaven?

Shall we re-order the Universe to suit our fallen human ideas?
________________________________________________

Here's Dedication's quotation from E.J. Waggoner:

Quote:
...the matchless charms of Christ....When Brother Waggoner brought out these ideas in Minneapolis, it was the first clear teaching on this subject from any human lips I had heard, excepting the conversations between myself and my husband. I have said to myself, It is because God has presented it to me in vision that I see it so clearly, and they cannot see it because they have never had it presented to them as I have. And when another presented it, every fiber of my heart said, Amen.--Ms 5, p. 10. (Sermon, Rome, New York, June 19, 1889.) {5MR 219.1}

But here's further elucidation from his own work:

"[Micah 5:2 quoted]..'whose goings forth have been from of old, from the days of eternity' (margin). We know that Christ 'proceeded forth and came from God' (John 8:42), but it was so far back in the ages of eternity as to be far beyond the grasp of the mind of man." page 9.

"[Micah 5:2 quoted] There was a time when Christ proceeded forth and came from God, from the bosom of the Father (John 8:42; 1:18), but that time was so far back in the days of eternity that to finite comprehension it is practically without beginning." pp. 21, 22. Christ and His Righteousness, E. J Waggoner. (1890)

"But I would have you know,
that the head of every man is Christ;
and the head of the woman is the man;
and the head of Christ is God."


1 Corinthians 11:3
_____________________
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/18/11 01:25 AM

Originally Posted By: gordonb1
Some will reject the Saviour because He is the Son of God, and not God the Father. "He can't be Divine, can't do the job". But this is rejecting God's Plan. God says He gave His Only Begotten Son to save a lost race. God knows the cost of redemption - who are we to argue with Heaven?

Shall we re-order the Universe to suit our fallen human ideas?


The part that is "fallen human ideas" is pretty clear to me. We attach our chronological "time" to everything. But God attaches infinity to His time. "Before Abraham was, I AM." Does this mean that God is a god of the past? Hardly. But it means that He inhabits eternity.

What ramifications does this have? Plenty. It cannot be accurately said that Christ WAS anything--we must say IS. Christ IS the Son of God. Christ IS begotten. When was He begotten? If the question must be answered relative to OUR time, there is only one answer--as a babe in Bethlehem. But before this He was already Promised, and with God, His Word is Truth. A promise is a reality, even before our human time has reached it. It is in this sense in which Jesus has always "been" begotten.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/18/11 02:14 AM

Quote:
but that time was so far back in the days of eternity that to finite comprehension it is practically without beginning

My finite comprehension has no problem in understanding what a beginning is, no matter how far back in eternity this may have happened. So saying that what had a beginning didn1t have a beginning doesn't make any sense at all.
Posted By: dedication

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/18/11 03:34 AM

Originally Posted By: gordonb1


Gordon: Hi Arnold - Yes Jesus was brought forth in the days of eternity and from that point was in close fellowship with His Father. He has everlasting life (as we all hope to) and has always been one with the Father (in mind, character and purpose), just as with the disciples in John 17. ("That they may be one, even as we are one" - v.22)

The Father's name is in Him (in Christ, 'the Angel [messenger] of the Lord', the Son of God who led the Hebrews through the wilderness). (Exodus 23:21)

The Son of God was always subject to the Father (the Ancient of Days) and will be at the last day:

"And when all things shall be subdued unto him (Christ), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (The Father) that put all things under him (Christ), that God may be all in all." (1 Corinthians 15:28).

The Father is "The God of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Ephesians 1:17)

The Son is "the Lord's Christ" (Luke 2:26) [the Lord's Anointed One]

Who anointed Jesus? The Father:"How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power." (Acts 10:38)

"God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him." (John 3:34)

It seems there is confusion as to Christ's relationship with the Father after He took upon Himself humanity and before.

True Christ came to reveal God.

John 14:9 Jesus said to him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; how is that you now say, Show us the Father?
14:10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works.
14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me:


It's also true that as a human Christ lived in complete obedience to the Father.
But He was EQUAL to the Father not subject to Him before -- In their sinless eternity they acted in perfect unity without One being in subjection to the other.

Originally Posted By: from EGW
"The angels all wear the yoke of obedience. They are the appointed messengers of Him who is the Commander of all heaven. But Christ is equal with God, infinite and omnipotent. He could pay the ransom for man's freedom. He is the eternal self-existing Son, on whom no yoke had come; (YI June 21, 1900)


Voluntarily, by self degradation, the second person of the divinity took an ever smaller position in the comparison to the first person, God father. He accepted willingly a dependent relationship with Him, the same relationship, which humans have to God. This was an inconceivably large condescension for Jesus Christ. He is God in the fullest and highest meaning of the word.

Now it is no longer possibly for angels or humans who all wear the yoke of obedience, to accuse God-- and say "for you it is an easy thing to be make the highest moral requirements of your subjects while you, yourself live above obedience and are all sufficient in yourself .
You cannot understand our situation and all the difficulties, with which we have to fight to live up to your expectations, you don’t know what it’s like to be a created being in subjection to a higher authority, we do not trust you." No, that charge is forever destroyed, for the Bible explains that Christ, Who is God in the highest sense, was tried "in everything like we, but without sin" (see Heb. 4.15)

It was God, for Christ is fully God, who yet fully and completely took upon Himself humanity, refusing to use the power of His Divinity, and depending totally, as any human must, upon the Father. It was the ONE who was equal in all ways to the Father, Who took on humanity and Who struggled in the Garden to submit His human will to the will of the Father.

Of course in this condescension God the Father was the God of Christ.

But God the Father placed ALL THINGS pretaining to mankinds salvation into the hands of Christ! (see John 13:3)
All things-- principalities and powers are subdued by Christ (1 Cor. 15:28) till all God's enemies are gone.

Yet in the end Christ doesn't boast and say -- LOOK I did it, or try to draw everyone to Himself and away from God the Father! No, instead He remains in His human state, as our elder brother, and points us to the Father.

The Father in turn exalts the Son.
That's what their ONENESS does, it's the total opposite to the sinful human struggle for supremacy. It's awesome to contemplate.
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/18/11 04:29 AM


Obedient sons are always subject to their fathers.

Christ was the Son of God before creation, before the fall of Satan.

"And I saw that when GOD said to his SON, Let us make man in our image, Satan was jealous of JESUS."
(1 Spiritual Gifts 17 - Capitals in 1858 original)

"He [Nebuchadnezzar] answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose,
walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt;
and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:25.

"How did that heathen king know what the Son of God was like? The Hebrew captives filling positions of trust in Babylon had in life and character represented before him the truth. When asked for a reason of their faith, they had given it without hesitation. Plainly and simply they had presented the principles of righteousness, thus teaching those around them of the God whom they worshiped. They had told of Christ, the Redeemer to come;
and in the form of the fourth in the midst of the fire the king recognized the Son of God."

(Prophets & Kings 509 - 1917)
________________________
Posted By: JAK

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/18/11 04:43 AM

Although I have not posted on this discussion (much to the relief of some, no doubt) I do have one question. (And, no, I have not read the entire 6 pages of posts, nor do I intend to.)

Here's my question:
IF God created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity, my question is "When do I get to be God." In other words, what do I have to do to also be promoted to divinity?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/18/11 07:04 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
but that time was so far back in the days of eternity that to finite comprehension it is practically without beginning

My finite comprehension has no problem in understanding what a beginning is, no matter how far back in eternity this may have happened. So saying that what had a beginning didn1t have a beginning doesn't make any sense at all.

Good point. I also have no problem comprehending a beginning, though it be nearly an eternity ago. I think this is, perhaps, part of the reason men try so hard to place Jesus in that frame of reference. They simply cannot comprehend a being with no beginning, so they latch onto the smallest hint of one and cling to it.

It is quite possible that the "beginning" here referred to is that point in time when Jesus was committed to becoming one of us and sacrificing His life for us. That is, in fact, the moment when He would have been "begotten." From that Point on, He was a "Son," though at first, only a "Son" of promise, also called the "Promised One."

I can easily enough imagine that there was once a time when He was not thus committed...a time when the Plan of Redemption was not yet securely in place. But that this plan did precede the Creation of the earth is fully evident in the scriptures.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/18/11 07:23 AM

Originally Posted By: gordonb1

Obedient sons are always subject to their fathers.

Christ was the Son of God before creation, before the fall of Satan.

"And I saw that when GOD said to his SON, Let us make man in our image, Satan was jealous of JESUS."
(1 Spiritual Gifts 17 - Capitals in 1858 original)

"He [Nebuchadnezzar] answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose,
walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt;
and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:25.

"How did that heathen king know what the Son of God was like? The Hebrew captives filling positions of trust in Babylon had in life and character represented before him the truth. When asked for a reason of their faith, they had given it without hesitation. Plainly and simply they had presented the principles of righteousness, thus teaching those around them of the God whom they worshiped. They had told of Christ, the Redeemer to come;
and in the form of the fourth in the midst of the fire the king recognized the Son of God."

(Prophets & Kings 509 - 1917)
________________________


Gordon,

Our Lord did not have the name "Jesus" (nor even "Christ") before God gave this name to Mary. The word "Jesus" does not appear even once in the Old Testament, unless you count "Joshua" to be its equivalent. But Mrs. White doesn't ever refer to "Jesus" by the name "Joshua." However, notice the following references.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
As soon as the Lord through Jesus Christ created our world and placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, Satan announced his purpose to conform to his own nature the father and mother of all humanity. . . . {CTr 10.3}

God had a church when Adam and Eve and Abel accepted and hailed with joy the good news that Jesus was their Redeemer. ... {CTr 51.2}


How is it that "Jesus" was worshiped by Adam and Eve? Did they know this name?

In the same vein, the "Son of God" is sometimes referred to when looking back to before the time when this title would have been a reality.

In the case of Nebuchadnezzar, I believe his words were either prophetic, or mistranslated. For example, to say "a son of the gods" would be dramatically different than to say "the Son of God."

Numbers 23:19 tells us clearly that God was not a "son of man." That event was still future.

One more reference to "Jesus" before this became His name also seems to explain the final commitment He made to the Plan of Redemption.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Sorrow filled heaven as it was realized that man was lost and that the world which God had created was to be filled with mortals doomed to misery, sickness, and death, and that there was no way of escape for the offender. The whole family of Adam must die. I then saw the lovely Jesus and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon His countenance. Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, "He is in close converse with His Father." The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with His Father. Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father we could see His person. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with a loveliness which words cannot describe. He then made known to the angelic choir that a way of escape had been made for lost man; that He had been pleading with His Father, and had obtained permission to give His own life as a ransom for the race, to bear their sins, and take the sentence of death upon Himself, thus opening a way whereby they might, through the merits of His blood, find pardon for past transgressions, and by obedience be brought back to the garden from which they were driven. Then they could again have access to the glorious, immortal fruit of the tree of life to which they had now forfeited all right. {EW 126.1}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: dedication

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/18/11 08:15 AM

Originally Posted By: gordonb1

Obedient sons are always subject to their fathers.

________________________


Quote:
"The angels all wear the yoke of obedience. They are the appointed messengers of Him who is the Commander of all heaven. But Christ is equal with God, infinite and omnipotent. He could pay the ransom for man's freedom. He is the eternal self-existing Son, on whom no yoke had come; (YI June 21, 1900
)
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/18/11 05:55 PM


"For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16.

________________________
Posted By: Daryl

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/22/11 05:08 AM

I asked this in the other related thread to Colin and am now also asking it here to anybody who thinks Christ was created:

Where can this be found in the Bible and/or the SOP?
Posted By: Colin

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/25/11 05:33 AM

Okay, whoever believes that after a full study of the Bible is a bit nuts. wink

This thread has deviated off topic a bit, though, not so. grin
Posted By: asygo

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/25/11 06:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Colin
This thread has deviated off topic a bit, though, not so. grin

Very much so. I'm still hoping someone could help me identify the source of the teaching in the subject line.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/25/11 02:02 PM

Quote:
Actually, the confusion still exists in my Earliteens class. One of the teachers brought it up during a discussion on the Fundamental Belief regarding Jesus. She said Jesus was first created an angel, then was later promoted into the Godhead.

Some of my more astute students immediately challenged her to prove it from the Bible. She could not give the verses, but she said she'll find the book where she got it from.

I talked to her after the class to make sure she just did not misunderstand or maybe she misspoke. She believes it. But she forgot the book and author where she got it from, though she is adamant that this teaching was supported by many Bible verses. She narrowed it down to Gulley, Paulien, or Goldstein, though I would be very surprised if it was really one of those.

Certainly she didn't get it from Gulley, Paulien, Goldstein, or any other SDA theologian employed by the denomination. She got it from some antitrinitarian author. But, Arnold, I wonder if such a person is adequate to teach earliteens? If she believes something, she must at least be able to prove it from the Bible, instead of mentioning someone else as the source of her belief.
Posted By: dedication

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/25/11 10:55 PM

Well, Ernest L. Martin, once a member of Armstrong's Church of God taught that Christ was first created, then He created everything else.
Here

The JW teach it.

Anti-Adventist websites claim the Adventist Pioneers as well as present day Adventists teach it. They point to quotes by EGW, or present day writers, where it says Michael the Archangel is Christ and they use that as their proof.

Since those who DO teach that Christ was first created as the first angel, also say Michael the Archangel is Christ, so people have put 2 plus 2 together and come up with a faulty five.

We believe Michael being the leader of the angels does not automatically mean He is an angel -- no it means the angels are under the command of Christ Who is above the angels -- He is divine, One with God.

So yes, there are a lot of confusing voices out there, however, I agree that this concept of Christ being first created an angel did NOT come from the sources this earliteen teacher suggested. I don't know of any bonafide Adventist leader teaching anything like that.
Posted By: asygo

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/26/11 01:40 AM

I was surprised by the list of names she gave, and told her that I would be shocked if any of them actually taught that. I will see if she can give me more specific info.

I think there can be some wiggle room with the "begotten" camp. But the idea that Jesus was an angel at first, then promoted into being God, which caused Lucifer to be jealous because he wanted to be promoted also, was almost beyond my comprehension.
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/29/11 02:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
...but the truth is that, according to the antitrinitarian view, the Son was originated by the Father, so He lacks one of the attributes of God and cannot qualify as God.

The Bible says that Christ was brought forth in the days of eternity: Proverbs 8:22-30 and Micah 5:2.

Ellen White quotes the same in the second page of Patriarchs & Prophets - p. 34.
This is the fourth paragraph of her five-volume Conflict series. She is either establishing God's foundation for her series, or she is sowing terrible confusion.

The Adventist pioneers rejected the Trinity doctrine as the wine of Babylon - a warning contained in the 3 Angel's message. The Trinity is the chief doctrine of Rome.

Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God from the days of eternity.
At Bethlehem He became the Son of Man.

How can you claim that Christ doesn't qualify when He is following God's Plan? The Father Himself has testified "I gave them MY SON!" - "My Only Son" - "What more could I do??"

"..yet few would receive Him as the Son of God." PP 64.

"To dispute the supremacy of the Son of God, thus impeaching the wisdom and love of the Creator, had become the purpose of this prince of angels [Lucifer]." PP 36.

"Those who derided his claim to be the Son of God are speechless now." GC643.

______________________________

Posted By: gordonb1

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/29/11 03:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Daryl F
..now .. asking it here to anybody who thinks Christ was created:

Where can this be found in the Bible and/or the SOP?


Hi Daryl, Christ was not created, but He was brought forth as the Son of God in the days of eternity. See Proverbs 8:22-30 and Micah 5:2. And Patriarchs & Prophets p. 34. Read this first chapter for more evidence.

Christ is not a created messenger (angel), but as the Son of God He is the Angel of the Lord..."my name is in him" Exodus 23:21.

"Christ was not only the leader of the Hebrews in the wilderness - the Angel in whom was the name of Jehovah, and who , veiled in the cloudy pillar, went before the host - but it was He who gave the law to Israel." PP 366.

Angels are messengers. [Hebrew #4397, Greek #32]

____________________
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 10/29/11 04:06 PM


• Proverbs 8:22-30
• Micah 5:2 & margin
• John 3:16
• Epistles of John
• Patriarchs & Prophets p.34 & 1st chapter
• Spirit of Prophecy Vol. 1 - first chapter - The Fall of Satan
• Spiritual Gifts Vol. 1 - first chapter - The Fall of Satan
• The Story of Redemption - first chapters

_____________________________
Posted By: Elle

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 11/05/11 07:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: dedication
DA 531 "In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived."

Letter 398 (1906) " In Jesus is our life derived. In Him is life, that is original, unborrowed, underived life. In us there is a streamlet from the fountain of life. In Him is the fountain of life."

Show me from scriptures the above.

Here are some scriptures for that.
<table border="1"><tr><th>Ellen White</th><th>Holy Bible</th></tr><tr><td>DA 531 "In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived."</td><td>Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. Yea, before the day was I am... (Isaiah 43:10-11,13)</td></tr><tr><td>In Jesus is our life derived.</td><td>For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light. (Psalm 36:9) <p>And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. (Revelation 21:6)</td></tr><tr><td>In Him is life, that is original, unborrowed, underived life.</td><td>Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (John 8:58)<p>...Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. (Revelation 1:17-18)</td></tr><tr><td>In Him is the fountain of life.</td><td>Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)</td></tr></table>


Looking at your table, you provided scriptures bringing these 3 main concepts :

(1)Jesus is the Fountain of Life : (Psalm 36:9, John 14:6) These text does not prove that the life going through Jesus is “original, unborrowed, and underived”, but confirms that he’s “ the mediator between God and man ” (1 Timothy 2:5), “the true vine ” (John 15:1) that will impart life(or nutrients) for the branches to bear fruits, “the anointed one” (Is 61:1; Lk 4:18; Act 10:38; ) who receives the words of life from His father(John 5:19,30; ) and imparts them to us through His Spirit(Jhn 6:63, 68), He is “the bread of Life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. ” (John 6:35) (32)… “Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. (33) For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven; and giveth life unto the world ” (Jn 6:33) – it is in this that makes Him “the Fountain of life” or “the way, the truth, and the life” … – ( John 14:6 continues by confirming what I'm saying above that Jesus is the mediator of life) -- “… no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. ” (John 14:6, KJV)

(2)Jesus is the “Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last” : (Rev 21:6; 22:13; 1:17-18) Alpha and Omega are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet, meaning he is the beginning and the end. This means many things, to name a few
(i) – in reference to the timeless nature of the spiritual realm. We see and live in a linear time line bound by time and space, whereas Jesus and G-d are not.
(ii) - Jesus knew the beginning from the end because He was with the Father at the beginning and through Jesus all things was created, and through Jesus the works(Plan of salvation) of G-d will be done. Jesus is “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Rev 13:8 denoting that Jesus knew the plan of salvation --the mind and intention of God from the beginning before anything was created. Jesus agreed with His FAther's plan and that's why Jesus is also knows as the "faithful witness" and the Amen of God because he agreed with it and is the second witness to all of His Father's will(plan) that was layed out from the beginning and also given in the Laws to Moses.
(iii) - Jesus is “the beginning” for He created all things and He was the pre-eminence of all things(Col 1:17,18; 1Cor 11:3) The word preeminence is proteuo(4409) which means to be first (in rank or influence). So Jesus is holding the highest rank in the universe under God, which entails all power that influences into motion all things into righteousness with his Words. Jesus is also “the end” of all things for he will bring all things under His feet and He will subject himself to the Father after having subdued all things are under His feet so that the Father can be the "All in All".

“The first and the last” is a literal translation of auth, spelled as Aleph-Vav-Tav, in Hebrew which means “a sign or seal”. Aleph is the first character in the Hebrew alphabet, Tav is the last character, both are joined by Vav which is the middle character of the alphabet that means “a nail or peg” and serve as the conjunction “and” because it “nails” two things together. So by John adding the literal translation of auth in Rev 22:13 serves to link the Hebrew equivalence to the Greek “Alpha and Omega”. There are close to 10,000 occurrences of Aleph & Tav in the Masoretic tex that are not translated in our English translation.

(3)Jesus is the I Am :(Isaiah 43:10-11,13) The “I Am” is a terminology belonging to the spiritual realm where time and space has no boundaries. On earth and in our unglorified(mortal and corruptible) bodies, we are bound by time(“I was” or “I will be”) and space(“I am here” or “I am there”). Jesus is the “I AM” which has no limit of time or space. All time is one. All space is one. In the Spirit, simply all things are. From Jesus spiritual perspective “31 “But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying, 32. I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living. ”Mat 21:31-32 Jesus consider Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob living because he can go back or forward in time. That’s why He can say “Before Abraham was, I Am” – Jesus is always the “I Am” for he can travel through time by which this is hard for finite minds to understand.

Summary : I don’t see how your texts you provided proves that Jesus life is “original, unborrowed, or underived”. I’m not saying that it is not true in some other meaning, but according to scripture it does not say explicitly that he does in the way you are meaning it. We have in 1 Tim 6:16 saying “Who[Father] only hath immortality, ” which to me strongly suggest that only the Father has “original, unborrowed, or underived” life. The scriptures seems to be saying that this life is said that it was given to Jesus :
#1) by Anointing Jesus,
#2) by giving Jesus His Word/Will,
#3) by resurrecting Jesus(over 30 texts says that the Father resurrected Jesus),
#4) “For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;” (John 5:26)
#5)by making Jesus the mediator, the fountain of life, the bread of life, and etc…

I’m not saying I fully understand all of this yet. As Gordon often brings out the point that the Father is in Christ which is the another meaning or way to understand this by which I fully don’t grasp yet.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 11/07/11 04:33 PM

Quote:
We have in 1 Tim 6:16 saying “Who[Father] only hath immortality,” which to me strongly suggest that only the Father has “original, unborrowed, or underived” life.

What's the evidence showing that 1 Tim 6:16 refers to the Father?
Posted By: Elle

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 11/10/11 03:03 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
We have in 1 Tim 6:16 saying “Who[Father] only hath immortality,” which to me strongly suggest that only the Father has “original, unborrowed, or underived” life.

What's the evidence showing that 1 Tim 6:16 refers to the Father?


Because verse 15 refers to the Father whom Christ came to show.

AV 1Ti 6:14 That thou keep [this] commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

AV 1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, [who is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

AV 1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Posted By: kland

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 11/10/11 04:00 PM

Jesus is the King of kings, and Lord of lords.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 11/10/11 05:24 PM

Quote:
Because verse 15 refers to the Father whom Christ came to show.

AV 1Ti 6:14 That thou keep [this] commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

AV 1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, [who is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

AV 1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Sorry, but you can't use that. The text is completely ambiguous; the relative pronouns can refer either to persons or to things (for instance, in the translation of the KJV "to show" refers to the appearing - that is, he shall show the appearing; the verb "to see" can refer to the light; etc.). Besides, as kland pointed out, twice in Revelation the title "King of kings and Lord of lords" is applied to Christ, not to the Father.
Posted By: Colin

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 11/12/11 04:18 AM

Yes, you have to look twice, Rosangela: no-one's saying otherwise, but verses 15&16 appear in simple reading and meaning to refer to the Father.

Again, Rosangela, it's not strictly about roles - suggesting that strictly only one of them may be called King of kings - but about identities: even Jesus referred Satan to his Father for rebuke when Jesus himself had authority over Satan,...just authority maybe disputed by Satan. The authority of the Father is unquestioned, in comparison.

The God of the Bible is a pragmatic God, a family God, having a begotten Son, and adopting the saints from this earth as his children, too, for Jesus' sake. Our God is not a God of formulas and rigid uniformity within the Godhead: God has a begotten Son, and they share the Holy Spirit of the Godhead. That's our profession of faith, isn't it?
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 11/12/11 10:37 PM

Quote:
Yes, you have to look twice, Rosangela: no-one's saying otherwise, but verses 15&16 appear in simple reading and meaning to refer to the Father.

I disagree. The text is contrasting one of the Persons of the Godhead with the earthly sovereigns. When it is said that He alone possesses immortality, this is in contrast with the other (human) kings and lords, not with the other Persons of the Godhead. And it's more natural to consider Christ as this only true Potentate who will come and put an end to the kingship and lordship of all others. That's also why Revelation attributes the title to Christ in His coming.

Quote:
even Jesus referred Satan to his Father for rebuke when Jesus himself had authority over Satan,...just authority maybe disputed by Satan. The authority of the Father is unquestioned, in comparison.

This is the real reason for Christ's words:

Christ Himself, when contending with Satan about the body of Moses, “durst not bring against him a railing accusation.” Jude 9. Had He done this, He would have placed Himself on Satan’s ground, for accusation is the weapon of the evil one. He is called in Scripture, “the accuser of our brethren.” Revelation 12:10. Jesus would employ none of Satan’s weapons. He met him with the words, “The Lord rebuke thee.” Jude 9. {MB 57.3}
His example is for us. When we are brought in conflict with the enemies of Christ, we should say nothing in a spirit of retaliation or that would bear even the appearance of a railing accusation. He who stands as a mouthpiece for God should not utter words which even the Majesty of heaven would not use when contending with Satan. We are to leave with God the work of judging and condemning. {MB 57.4}

Quote:
God has a begotten Son, and they share the Holy Spirit of the Godhead. That's our profession of faith, isn't it?

Our profession of faith is that God and Christ are co-equal, not that Jesus has always been and will always be subordinate to the Father.
Posted By: Colin

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 11/13/11 12:39 AM

Covering all points at once, perhaps, Jesus is the pre-incarnate begotten Son of God.
Quote:
The Sovereign of the universe was not alone in His work of beneficence. He had an associate—a co-worker who could appreciate His purposes, and could share His joy in giving happiness to created beings. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.” John 1:1, 2. Christ, the Word, the only begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father—one in nature, in character, in purpose—the only being that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God.

Thus, the KJV rendering of Jn 3:16b should read "only begotten Son", despite the 'scholarly arguments' for the NIV: not just that Sister White had but the KJV or the Revised Version (1881), but that her understanding of and belief in God and our Saviour Jesus Christ expressed itself in her writings in line with the rendering of the KJV. God taught her what he taught her. smile

On Jesus and the Devil, yes, that is also true. wink

Quote:
Quote:
God has a begotten Son, and they share the Holy Spirit of the Godhead. That's our profession of faith, isn't it?


Our profession of faith is that God and Christ are co-equal, not that Jesus has always been and will always be subordinate to the Father.

That they are "co-equal" is implicit in what I suggested, of course: having to state "begotten Son" is necessary, since we should believe it - see that SOP quote! - but we have forthrightly, publicly denied it, remember. smile
Posted By: Elle

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 11/29/11 02:28 AM

I am currently reading about Origen of Alexandria(185 - 254 AD) here. It is interesting to note that Origen, who was taught by Clement of Alexandria, believed that only the Father's divinity was underived.

He taught that "the basic and traditional assertion that there is one God who is the father of the Lord Jesus Christ and sender of the Holy Spirit. Basing his comments on the opening sentence of John' Gospel, Origen explains that this one God is the God-in-Godself and his divinity is his own and not derived whereas the Logos is simply called God because his divinity, though real and true,is derived from the supreme God."
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 11/29/11 03:45 AM

Yes, Origen is a little confused. To him, both the Son and the Holy Spirit are derived from God, and God communicated His divinity to them. He was still trying to understand this profound subject.

Quote:
The question still persists how to describe the status or being of the eternal Son and Spirit vis-à-vis the Father, the one God. Origen is one with his predecessors in emphatically rejecting any idea that the Son or the Spirit can be described as creatures, brought into existence from non-existence. Yet, their being is derived from the Father and they exist distinct from the Father. Origen's explanation is that the divinity of the Father, which makes God to be God, is communicated fully and eternally to the Son and the Spirit. In effect, he speaks of the relationship by stating that the Son is begotten from the Father's own substance and the eternity of the Father is eternally and fully communicated to the Son and the Spirit. This communication of divinity is reinforced with allegories such as light proceeding from the sun. He adduces scriptural evidence for Christ as "the image of the invisible God" (Hebrews 1:3, Colossians 1:15, Wisdom 7:25-26).
Posted By: Elle

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 11/29/11 03:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Yes, Origen is a little confused. To him, both the Son and the Holy Spirit are derived from God, and God communicated His divinity to them. He was still trying to understand this profound subject.

Do you think that we(SDAs) know this subject any better? We both know that there is a massive disagreement among SDAs concerning the nature of Christ and the Holy Spirit. Plus we don’t even understand the nature of the Father either.

The early church was Hebrew in culture, language, background and heritage. Major lost of meanings and understanding of the Gospel stems from the church moving from Hebrew to Greek, and then later from Greek to Latin. The Church went through a 1700+ years of “Babylonian” ruling and philosophy which has plunge the Church into deeper confusion.

To my understanding, Origen and Clement and others before them were the last Hebrew Christians whose teachings were past down from the disciples and Paul.

Without being side-tracked with your disagreement with Origen understanding of the nature of Christ and the Holy Spirit which no one seems to have it straight including myself, my simple point here is that Origen understood 1Ti 6:14-16 as it plainly reads, that the Father only had immortality.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 11/29/11 04:16 PM

Quote:
The early church was Hebrew in culture, language, background and heritage. Major lost of meanings and understanding of the Gospel stems from the church moving from Hebrew to Greek, and then later from Greek to Latin.

Elle, I'm sorry to disagree. If the language had anything to do with this, the Jews would be the most wise and orthodox Christians on earth. But they continue to be Jews and don't understand their own Scriptures at all.

Quote:
To my understanding, Origen and Clement and others before them were the last Hebrew Christians whose teachings were past down from the disciples and Paul.

But Origen and Clement weren't from hebrew origin at all. They were born in Alexandria and had a helenistic background. This is what the Wiki says about Clement:

Quote:
He united Greek philosophical traditions with Christian doctrine and valued gnosis that with communion for all people could be held by common Christians specially chosen by God;[citation needed] vide, e.g., Stromata, VI.106.4f. Though he constantly opposes the concept of gnosis as defined by the Gnostics, he used the term "gnostic" for Christians who had attained the deeper teaching of the Logos.[1] He developed a Christian Platonism.[2] He presented the goal of Christian life as deification, identified both as Platonism's assimilation into God and the biblical imitation of God.[1]
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 11/29/11 04:46 PM

Quote:
my simple point here is that Origen understood 1Ti 6:14-16 as it plainly reads, that the Father only had immortality

But it is not clear in the passage if the Person referred to is the Father or Christ. Besides, that Person is compared just with earthly kings and lords, in contrast with whom He "alone has immortality." The passage says, literally: "the King of those who reign as kings and the Lord of those who rule as lords."
Posted By: Elle

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 11/29/11 07:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Besides, that Person is compared just with earthly kings and lords, in contrast with whom He "alone has immortality." The passage says, literally: "the King of those who reign as kings and the Lord of those who rule as lords."

It’s still the same Rosangela --- the King of kings and the Lord of lords. Both the Father and Jesus have that title. The Father is in Jesus, and Jesus is in the Father.

So when Jesus is ruling, He doesn’t rule according to his will, His plans, or His laws, but according to the Father’s will, the Father’s plans, and the Father’s laws. Jesus agrees with all of the Father wills, plans, and laws. So Jesus is ruling on the behalf of the Father, not usurping His Father's throne and preserving the Father as the real King who is the only Potentate.

Joseph was the Type of this relationship when he saved all of Egypt and the land around it, but Joseph was not above Pharaoh who prefigure the Father. So yes Pharaoh made Joseph rule above all the princes and kings and lords in the Land, but Joseph was ruling Pharaoh's Kingdom not his own.

Both the Father and Jesus can be Lord of lords and King of kings, but only the Father can be the Potentate.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 11/30/11 02:54 PM

Quote:
Both the Father and Jesus can be Lord of lords and King of kings, but only the Father can be the Potentate.

What is your basis for saying that? As I said, the comparison is between the Person of the Godhead referred to and earthly rulers. He is the only Potentate in the sense of being the King over all the earthly kings and the Lord over all the earthly lords. The word translated here as "potentate" is used in Scripture to refer to earthly rulers (Luke 1:52, Acts 8:27). And again, this applies more naturally to Jesus Christ.
We should be careful about this kind of statement. Some take 1 Corinthians 8:6 and say that only the Father is God (at least in what they call "the truest sense"), but they forget that, if the text means that, it also means that only Christ is Lord. Both conclusions, of course, are unwarranted.
So, when the Bible says that the Person referred to is the only Potentate, or Sovereign, this doesn't mean at all that the other Persons of the Godhead aren't Sovereigns, but that He is the Sovereign above all earthly sovereigns.
Posted By: Elle

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 12/01/11 02:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Both the Father and Jesus can be Lord of lords and King of kings, but only the Father can be the Potentate.

What is your basis for saying that? As I said, the comparison is between the Person of the Godhead referred to and earthly rulers. He is the only Potentate in the sense of being the King over all the earthly kings and the Lord over all the earthly lords. The word translated here as "potentate" is used in Scripture to refer to earthly rulers (Luke 1:52, Acts 8:27). And again, this applies more naturally to Jesus Christ.
We should be careful about this kind of statement. Some take 1 Corinthians 8:6 and say that only the Father is God (at least in what they call "the truest sense"), but they forget that, if the text means that, it also means that only Christ is Lord. Both conclusions, of course, are unwarranted.
So, when the Bible says that the Person referred to is the only Potentate, or Sovereign, this doesn't mean at all that the other Persons of the Godhead aren't Sovereigns, but that He is the Sovereign above all earthly sovereigns.
I do see your point Rosangela. I looked at the word Potentate and it's not what I had originally remembered(or assumed) it's meaning.

I will agree that this text could be relating to either the Father or Jesus, therefore you need to rely on other texts to determine who it is refering to. I do believe that Jesus is in submission to the Father as much scripture shows that and also a foundational TYPE is given with Joseph.

However, like I hinted in the post #137718, that the Godhead or Trinity is something that I do not claim to understand. I thought I understood it in the pass, but I see today that none of us(SDAs) are close to understanding it. So I will continue studying scripture and asking Jesus to teach me(1Jn 2:27).
Posted By: Daryl

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? - 12/05/11 05:28 AM

I see the Godhead as being equal to each other, but also being submissive to each other according to their respective roles.
© 2024 Maritime 2nd Advent Christian Believers OnLine Forums Consisting Mainly of Both Members & Friends of the SDA (Seventh-day Adventist) Church