Astronomy question

Hi guys. This is Tom. Sorry it's been such a long time, just been really, really busy with work.

Here's a question I've been wondering about, which I'd like to see what you think. I didn't know where would be the best place to post this, so I'm posting it here, as a General Discussion question.

I'm wondering how to understand black holes, or, more generally, the death of stars in general. If we see the death of a star that X Millions of light years away, that would imply the star is older than X Millions of years. I wouldn't expect stars to be dying without sin existing. There are several possibilities I can think of:

1.The evidence for the death of stars is being misinterpreted.
2.The universe was created billions of years ago, and they physicists think, and the death of stars is a normal course of events, and has nothing to do with the existence of sin.
3.The universe was created with an apparent age of greater than it actually is (like Adam appearing to be an adult, which he was, at creation, even though he was only seconds old).

I know this isn't really well explained, what I'm getting at, but hopefully clearly enough. I can explain more later, as the discussion gets going, if needed.

The basic question is why we see evidence of the death of stars millions of years ago. Does this mean the universe is millions of years old? Does it imply that sin occurred millions of years ago?

Perhaps #2. The Bible tells us that before God began His creative work here, the earth was without form and void. IOW, the earth was in a chaotic state, which means that there was chaos before sin. So it seems that, in this case, chaos has nothing to do with sin. Perhaps this could also be true of the cataclysmic processes related to stars.

Yes, the earth is billions of years old and as Rosangela said -the earth was in a chaotic state proir to the creation of man...
...According to the so called Bible liquid water also existed prior to God starting His creation event.
...I could easily be wrong but have always thought earth is the Eden of the cosmos.
...Like Eden was the paradice of planet earth.

The geologic evidence doesn't appear to me to support the idea that the earth is billions of years old, unless we assume it existed without life for billions of years. Even then I would have questions.

What do you guys think?

Many have the opinion that the earth may have existed without life for some time before God decided to create life on it.

Glad to see you back!

The universe is certainly quite old, don't you think?

But "dying" is just the word we use to describe a part of a natural cycle. It isn't as though the star were actually a living organism, so we aren't dealing with true "death" such as would have come only from the sin condition.

As an example, when we are in sinless Heaven, we will eat the fruit and leaves of the Tree of Life. Is it objectionable that the tree should have its fruits and leaves devoured? Is this a "death" for them?

I see some of these things as God-ordained biological cycles which are neither the result of sin, nor are they any less than perfect. God designed it thus.


I would go mostly with your #2 option, although I think in some cases #3 also applies (such as with Adam, as in your example). I do not think God created rays of light from the stars to our earth in order to short-circuit the normal speed at which that light should arrive. (Some actually believe this.) I believe those stars have existed long enough for their light to reach us according to the natural laws ordained by God.



No, it need not be that sin occurred that long ago. The stars may have their own cycles, as ordained by God, without sin. But, yes, the universe is almost certainly at least millions of years old.

The Bible speaks of the earth prior to Creation Week. There are three things that appear to have pre-existed that week, according to the record in Genesis 1.

1) Water
2) Land
3) Stars

In the first case, we never see God saying something like "Let there be water." In fact, the water is never created during the week, but rather the Holy Spirit is hovering over the water before God speaks.

In the second case, again, God does not say "Let there be land." What He says is, "let the dry land appear." This shows two things: 1) the land was first wet, and 2) the land was not before apparent to view. It implies the land was submerged.

In the third case, the stars appear in Day 4 as a parenthetical statement. "He made the stars also." This is the only occurrence of the word "also" in the entire chapter, and does not indicate the stars as an afterthought so much as an additional explanation--indicating that God had made them too, albeit not necessarily at that time. Another possible way to look at it, though, is that God set the planets in our solar system as "stars" on that day (wandering stars).

Well, those are my thoughts on the subject.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Yes, the "empty" and "void" context of the earth implies a place devoid of life. Just like a programmer can have an empty array or hash--it is a place, may even have a name or "handle," but it contains nothing...yet.

I believe our earth sat here for some time before Creation Week, and it was during that week that something was made of it, and life was put into it.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

That's true, but many disagree as well. I haven't researched what EGW may have written on the subject, if anything.

"For some time" would be greatly understating things, if what we're really talking about is 5 billion years, or something like that. But these ideas, based on science, are inextricably tied to the idea of evolution. I know of no scientists who think the earth is billions of years old, but evolution didn't occur. So if we say that the earth existed before day one of the creation week, why are we saying so? Based on what? I understand one could make a linguistic argument, as linguistically there seems to be quite a division as to whether the implication is the earth already existed, or didn't, but would there be some other reason for such an idea, besides the linguistic one?

Why would God create the universe to exist for billions of years without life? That doesn't really make sense to me.

By the way, I'm just asking questions here. I don't have a strong conviction here. I guess the thing that makes the most sense to me is a young earth/universe scenario, mostly from the standpoint of logic(i.e., what seems logical to me) but I'm interested in what others have concluded.

Do you mean like billions of years? Or a small amount of time? Do you have some reason for thinking so other than a linguistic one? As I've pointed out, the Genesis 1 passage is greatly debated as to the implication of prior existence of the earth.

Regarding the universe being quite old, I guess I would say, I doubt it. I think the universe is as old as angels are, as I don't see why God would have created a lifeless universe to exist for eons without life. I don't know how old angels are, but my impression is that they may have been around for some time before man created (well, must have been for some time, obviously), but that it wasn't a great deal of time, certainly not billions of years. Of course, one question which comes up here is how we render time, since we know from relativity that time is relative, so how we reckon time on earth may not correspond directly to how angels would reckon it.

Regarding the "dying" comment, I agree that there could be a natural process involved which would lead to stars ceasing to exist which wouldn't necessarily be tied to the existence of sin, but that doesn't really make sense to me. Will forms of life die, or exist eternally? Like a tree, for example? Will trees die? I don't think so; I think they'll live for ever. So will ants, and bacteria, and all forms of life, it seems to me. So if this is so for these examples, why not for stars?

To my way of thinking, a star burning out implies something went wrong somewhere. Certainly the sun won't ever burn out, correct?

Regarding the stars existing long enough for light to reach us according to the natural laws, this is certainly a logical idea, but it is my understanding that this idea would lead to the idea of the universe being something like 13 billion years old, or whatever they're saying now. It seems odd to me that God would have created the universe to exist for that long without life, but I suppose that's possible, as it's certainly the case that God reckons time differently than we do.

Thanks for sharing your ideas. What do you think of the following:



That is, if the evening and the morning were the first day on day one of the creation week, why would this be the case if the sun and the earth already existed? What would drawing dry land from an already existing wet earth have to do with this?

I have no problem thinking the earth was here for billions of years prior to Creation Week. The figure we hear in the Bible time and time again regarding times before our creation is "eternity." Eternity is more than a little longer than 5 billion years.

I do not have any particular agreement with the 4.56 billion-year figure (or whatever scientists have changed it to now to accommodate their theories). In fact, I think it may well have been longer than any such figure.

Why is it that God would not have created life anywhere in the universe much before that which was made here? Ellen White tells of life forms on other planets, and I do not suppose these to have been created all at the same time, nor just in our era. I believe that the angels and beings on other planets may well have existed for billions of years. Certainly, they may not have either. But God is "from everlasting to everlasting." He could have made a new planet each year--or perhaps He started by creating the planetary shells, setting them in motion, then set about to add life forms to each one in its time. We simply do not know.



Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I think it may burn out. God has options, of course, in how to manage things. But I would point out that in Revelation it does not say that the New Earth will not have the sun, it says only that it will not need the light from the sun. We are told that we will still meet together every seventh-day for Sabbath, and those days are defined by the sun. In fact, what is a day to us may not be a "day" on another planet. The word "day" is relative, and in our case our days and years are defined by the relative rotations of the earth on its axis and around the sun.

Enter some scientific theory.

Our sun is losing a tremendous amount of mass every day. On top of emitting a substantial amount of light (which I believe is not mass-less), there are gases that manage to escape the sun's gravity and sail away as well, such as by the activity of a solar flare.

Scientists believe in the "conservation of energy" theory. According to this theory, energy can never be created nor destroyed, but is always conserved. It can only change forms. (Or be relocated.) If our sun is losing tons (literally) of mass/energy every day, at some point, the energy must be used up.

It would be like lighting a Coleman lamp. Sure, the netting for the lamp contains some radioactive radium to help it glow so brightly when lit. But the lamp must run on fuel, and the fuel has a limited lifespan before it is used up. The lamp is not filling itself with more fuel as the fuel is burned. Someone like you or me could add fuel before the lamp burns out. Or we could just let it burn out. We could even bring in an entirely new lamp to replace the empty one.

I see God as having those same options with the sun. The sun is slowly burning out. At some point, should the mass lost by the sun never be replaced, the sun will be gone. God could either "refill" the sun, or replace it. And where I can think of a couple of options, God would have a couple thousand options.



I don't believe the sun existed prior to Creation Week. I believe it was a new portion of the creation. God created the sun on Day 4, and set the moon in place then too. Regarding the Light, I believe that since the sun is not made until several days later, the light that we see on Day 1 is a reference to the light of God's presence. He had come to earth. His presence was here. And God is light.



Looking more closely at the Creation Week passage, one can see some significant symbolism to it. Examine the following parallelism.



Then notice that we are told in Revelation that there will be "no more night." These things are highly symbolic, and go beyond a literal reading. God has, through His literal creation, spoken His profound truths to us.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Again, God is using some literal objects as lessons and symbols of a greater truth. Have you read from the beginning of this topic? I have explained in that thread some of the symbols I see in Creation Week, including this one.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

You're saying that the earth has existed for eternity? Or matter? It's not clear to me what your point is here.



Your thoughts are that the earth is billions of years old, like 5 billion or so as the scientists say, but the sun is only a few thousand years old? Why would you think that? The especially confusing part is that scientists base the age of the earth on a principle, uniformalism, which you are rejecting with reference to the sun.

I haven't read any posts for months. What I posted here was just based on something I've been thinking about and trying to understand better.

No. Sorry if that wasn't clear. What I mean is that there is an eternity of time during which our earth might have had its beginning. I do not believe the earth has been here eternally. But since God has existed from eternity, He could have begun our earth at any time in the past--leaving a lot of room in that space of time for a date.



Yes, I would reject uniformalism. I do not believe the scientists can be much trusted with regards to dates for things.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I agree about science not being able to date things well. It seems to me unlikely that the universe would be existing for billions of years without there being life, and also unlikely that the angels and other life forms have been around for billions of years. There doesn't seem to be any hint of that which I can see in the writings of inspiration.

I'm not understanding your idea of the earth existing for billions of years, but the sun being created on the fourth day of creation, and existing for a few thousand years. Have I understood you correctly? If so, why does this seem logical to you?

EGW says that the sun on the New Earth will be seven times brighter than it is now. She goes on to say that the Moon will also be seven times brighter than it is now. Actually, she says that in reverse as quoted below:

That's from Isa. 30:26

Tom.

Nice to have both to read in front of us.

My idea for this is based strictly on my understanding of the Biblical record. According to the Bible, the essential elements of earth pre-existed Creation Week. It does not appear to be the same with regard to the sun.


That God says "Let there be lights" in this manner parallels the other creations where the same language of "Let there be..." or "Let the earth bring forth..." is used. All of God's creations during that week appear to start with "Let." But those things which were already there are not prefaced this way. Instead, the action which shaped those elements is the direct object, as in "be gathered." (And perhaps it would have been a more literal translation to say "be apparent" in place of "appear.")
Of course, I'm not a Hebrew scholar, and I'm open to further study. Yet from what I see, the wording of the chapter is very precise and intentional. The word choices in this chapter appear deliberately calculated, almost like legal documents--unlike some other passages in the Bible. And the parallels between this chapter and the rest of the Bible are wonderful.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I don't know exactly how long these time-frames are, but there's a hint in this quote of significant time before earth existed.

God has always existed, but He doesn't need to inhabit space like we do. So the universe is probably much younger than God.

Angels are spirits. Maybe they don't need to inhabit space like we do. So it's possible that the angels are older than the universe.

Creating a universe without life does seem pointless, so I think it is safe to assume that God created life along with the universe.


The quote I gave said that they were around for "ages" before sin entered. If we can figure out how long an "age" is, then the angels were at least twice that old when Satan sinned.

In any case, I don't see why there couldn't have been billions of years before man came on the scene. For eternal beings, 15 billion years is just a drop in the ocean.


As I said above, for beings who don't die, a few billion years here and there is not really much. From a purely mathematical perspective, 1 second comprises a greater percentage of my lifespan than 100 billion years in theirs.

But let's do some conjecturing with relativity. General relativity says that the nearer you are to a gravitational source, the slower you clock goes. Assuming that heaven is very massive compared to earth, we could calculate what mass heaven needs to have so that a day there is a thousand years here (or any other length of time we choose).

Let's throw in E=mc^2. We know that God is very energetic. He had enough energy to form such massive objects as stars just by speaking. That energy is equivalent to quite a bit of mass, which results in gravity, which results in gravitational time dilation.

So, it is plausible that angels reckon time differently.


Stars are not forms of life. For one, they don't reproduce. They are just inanimate objects.

Let's simplify it by thinking of them as big balls of hydrogen. Matter is turned into energy when hydrogen turns into helium. When all the hydrogen has changed into helium, the change from matter to energy stops. The star is "dead" now.

But that's like then you light your stove. Gas combines with oxygen, generating heat and forming other chemicals. When the gas stops, the fire stops.

How about monkeys? Well, food is turned into "monkey" cells and "monkey" energy. Stop the food, the monkey stops eventually. So, the monkey must look for more bananas to continue its life.


Maybe God can give it more bananas (hydrogen, actually). If He can speak things into existence, He can certainly speak more hydrogen into the center of the sun. He probably has other options as well.


Well, cosmology is a slippery fish. There was a time when everyone believed the size of the universe was constant (leading to Einstein's Cosmological Constant). Then they saw galaxies hurtling away from each other, so they believed it was expanding at a constant rate. Then their calculations didn't work, so they said the universe experienced rapid expansion for a very short time (i.e., the universe took 0.0000000000000000000000000000000001 seconds to expand 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times its size), then slowed down. Now, they say that it's speeding up again because of some anti-gravitational energy that nobody can detect, but they're sure it's there. Sounds like a lot of guessing to me.

In any case, a 13-billion-year-old universe is not a deal-breaker. As long as we don't believe that life just gradually evolved from nothingness into what we see now. The fact is that He who is Life came along and said, "Let there be _______," and there it was.

I have no problem with the universe being billions of years old. It took a long time of growing before the Lucifer began to question which lead to the Great Controversy.

One of the reasons why the earth looks a lot older than it is comes from the universe being ancient, and God showing that he could create a world that was already billions of years old on the day it was created. That God was not just being aware when Mother Nature was going to make a brand new sparkling planet that God was simply taking credit for. A brand new planet would not have shown the creative power of God.

I totally get what you're asking here because I had the same questions. There are two main concepts that a creationist could appeal to.

The first being that everything was spoken into existence complete, the way creation is described ... and that would include the light evidence. Starting at once but taking time to expose that which is far off...at the speed of light those stars which could be seen within the light wave from our perspective would appear to light up as a wave in all directions.

Or second, That creation was built off of a planetary object floating in the blackness of space spoken into existence so long ago it's not recorded in Genesis, held in check until God decided to create here.

I tend to view the first scenario most intriguing. Especially in consideration with your first question about black holes.

I am of the belief that everything created in THIS universe was made for us. Think about it, have you ever heard how inhospitable space is? Why would God allow un-fallen worlds to be subject to the torn universal elements that we have here in this universe, compared to how heaven is described?
There are black holes and pulsars and quasars and Novas and super novas and galexies colliding into one another...is that heaven? NO WAY.

I feel convinced that this universe is for us. It was God's way to quarantine sin and sinners. Our minds have tried to escape the prison of earth in many different ways, all forms of the tower of Babel, but we are still imprisoned. The only way off is on the bridge to heaven, Jesus.

Adam was the representative of this universe, all of the created Sons of God have their own universes, and this is all under the HEAVENLY UNIVERSE where they all are sheltered.

Check this out, after I had this cool revelation I read this article from scientific America Magazine perfectly illustrating this theory. http://www.mukto-mona.com/science/physics/ParalellUniverse2003.pdf

The article brakes all the different theories about space into different categories. I tend to believe in the Level II muti-verse theory. But I also believe a variation of the Level Three muti-verse theory could explain how angels could be in our presence without us seeing them.



My view is very similar to this theory, but from the perspective of the Father, outside all the bubbles looking in.

Jesus spoke it all into existence but it is obvious that even in this fallen condition, our Universe is still expanding and growing with new stars. This gift speaks of the ever growing love of the Father. God is perfect, but His perfection grows, and in His creation His love blossoms. (I know people will quote that God is the same today and tomorrow and forever, but I also recall God the Father loves the Son MORE for what He did for us, and the angels sing a note higher after the recreation of earth.)

It's a really great article, check it out. I also have oodles of other cool substantiative theories if your interested.

I believe all of the damage being done in our universe was as a result of sin. Satan was let loose out of his prison after the fall and he set about doing the dirty on our universe. One planet collides into another, and the fragments collide into earth and bring down the Upper Firmament of water above, and cracked the shell of earth below into tectonic plates at the time of the great flood, and so on.

Nice quote. Hadn't noticed this, although I've read this passage.

I made my statement about it not being billions of years because of how the narrative read to me, from SP and other places. I hadn't noticed the quote with the "ages" that you cited. Perhaps I should reread the accounts. My impression had been that beings hadn't been around that long. While billions of years is not a long time for eternal beings, it's a very long time in terms of fleshing out different scenarios. God always knew of the possibility of the existence of sin, so His character would have mandated His working to make the universe "fail safe."

This might be cryptic; I don't have time to go into a lot of detail, so hopefully a brief explanation of how I'm thinking will be clear. The SOP speaks of how even holy angels were made secure by the cross, and that it wasn't until then that they truly understood the issues of the GC and that God was right/Satan was lying. The holy angels had made their choice to be on God's side although they didn't understand the issues completely. This is how the chapter "It Is Finished" from "The Desire of Ages" reads to me.

So the principle of the cross is what makes/made the universe "fail-safe." Is it actually necessary for sin to occur in order for the universe to be fail-safe? I don't think so. If not, we can assume that God was working to make the universe fail-safe, and I don't think it would take billions of years to accomplish this.

If we assume that sentient life has been around for billions of years, then the conclusion would seem to me inevitable that God couldn't do anything to make the universe "fail-safe" until sin occurred. I find that view problematic, as it would make sin something useful, perhaps even necessary.

Hope I'm being clear. Thanks for entering into the discussion. I think this is a fascinating topic.

I think there is an assumption you left out of your possibilities. Could the evidence for the age of the universe be misinterpreted?

I've read about the universe expanding which affects the estimated age from the light heading towards us, but also moving away from us.

But, that doesn't really change your question.

As already mentioned, stars are not living objects. So, they cannot really "die". However, if this was a perfect system, you would not think they would have "run down" before sin entered. But, keep in mind, one person's description of destruction is another person's description of art.

After sin entered our world, it would not be imagined other worlds were created. Other worlds exist. Therefore, saying life did not exist in the universe before our world would not be correct. Life still doesn't exist on Mars (unless you count the "bunnies").

I see the earth and the sun already existing prior to life on our planet. Lot's of geology give evidence of the raw materials being greater than 10K years, although there is also evidence being less. The verse says the sun was made to rule the day, not necessarily created. Many planets rotate parallel to their orbit. Could God creating the sun to rule the day and be for seasons be putting the correct angle and spin on the earth?

James, thanks for your post. Haven't gotten around to reading it yet, but noticed it and wanted to acknowledge it. Should get around to it later today.

Arnold, regarding:



I alluded to this in an earlier post, and mentioned relativity. I'm not really caring about actual time elapsed (which, I know, doesn't event make sense to say from a relativistic standpoint), but about the experiences the angels would have had. In billions of years, they would have had trillions of experiences, as we reckon time. What doesn't make sense to me is that they would have had trillions of experiences, and then sin emerges.

No, I thought of this. I thought I mentioned it. Several have pointed out this possibility, and I think it's likely, such as it's likely (putting it mildly) that the evidence for a world-wide flood has somehow been misinterpreted.



Several have suggested the idea of adding "food" to the star/sun, and this seems like a viable option. This was more of a minor point to the discussion, as my mentioning the death of the star has more to do with the age of the universe. If the universe is not at least millions of years old, how do we explain the evidence of dying stars? That was the question in that part of the quote. Evidence of a dying star implies a very old universe because first of all, it takes light a long time to get to us in the first place, and secondly, even more importantly as far as age is concerned, it takes a long time for a star to die.



Certainly I agree that life existed, I just have trouble with the idea that it's existed for billions of years. But I'm open to what others think, which is why I posted this, to hear ideas.



It seems possible to me that the sun/earth could be older than a few thousand years, but if that's the case, I would expect them to be so together. Green Cochoa, if I understood him correctly, suggested the earth was very, very old, but the sun just a few thousand years old. That doesn't seem like a viable alternative to me.

I'm curious as to what evidence you have in mind. A lot of the evidence can be interpreted differently if you allow for a world-wide flood.

James, thx for your response. I probably won't have time to read the article for awhile, but perhaps next week I can. I think I understood what you said, which is that our fallenness applies only to our "bubble," whereas unfallen worlds are in another bubble. Is this correct? If so, I have some follow up questions, but I'll wait until you confirm, so I don't waste time asking questions about something you weren't saying.

Regarding my question about black holes/dead stars, I understand that God could speak things into existence so that it might look to us like they were older than they really are. I gave Adam as an example. He would have looked 30 years old, or so, as we reckon time, even when only an instant old. Something similar could be the case for the universe.

This applies to stars which are alive, as we see their light. But what about dead stars? If they didn't die until Adam sinned, then why do we see that evidence? Assuming Adam lived a few thousand years ago, our seeing evidence shouldn't have happened for millions of years.

Yes exactly, our Universal 'bubble' is isolated from the others because of sin.

Before the fall, Adam could enter and exit the Garden of Eden through the Eastern Gate at his desire. The Garden of Eden is where all the un-fallen created sons of God have access to the tree of life and as such will never die. The garden is in the New Jerusalem in heaven but there was access here on earth. The portal of which was visible even to fallen man, up until the day of the flood.

Regarding the value of time in our creation, think about this. The beginning of life is accelerated in almost every instance of birth on our planet. For instance; When a baby is born the eyes are as big as they'll ever get, but how tremendously they have to grow in nine months to get that big. Same with the over all body in general, never again is the body going to grow as fast as it did in the Uterus.

So with that image in mind, think about our universe in an un-fallen condition. No debris in the vastness of space, allowing us to see from one side of our universe to the other in perfect light. Nothing to harm, everything in perfect order.

Even the earth itself covered in a miraculous bubble of water above the earth (the upper firmament) like a giant amniotic sack applying more than double the current atmospheric pressure, like living in a giant hyperbaric chamber.

Then, 6,000 years ago, in this accelerated growth stage of our universe, the tree of knowledge of good and evil was Satans only portal. He couldn't leave until Adam fell and let him and his angels out of their cage of darkness and again he had access to come before God in heaven in the place of Adam, to accuse God before the angels and un-fallen worlds.

So only 6,000 years have passed since he had access to do his dirty on this Universe, the beginning of which was in a highly accelerated mode of growth, so damage done in that state would be exponentially felt in the future.

And here we are on this solitary rock, alone in this violent universe with only the atmosphere and electromagnetic field of the planet to protect us from the harmful things out in the big bad space, and most of us can't see that it is God that sustains and protects us. He alone keeps us safe from the cosmic destruction going on around us.

God holds the four winds, but they are about to blow very soon.

You know what happens when four powerful winds intersect? It's the perfect metaphor for world wide destruction.




Crazy...

Interesting ideas. So before sin, there was one universe, shared by all, but now there are two? One is the copy of the other, but without sin? I might be missing something here. Are the unfallen worlds in their own universe, but they can view this one; that's the idea?

Did you understand the question about the dead stars? Ordinarily it would take an enormous amount of time for a star to go out, and then a much smaller amount of time for the light to get here (although that smaller amount of time could still be millions of years). If we assume that dead stars are the result of sin, and that the universe was created a short amount of time ago, how do we explain this?

There is one "heavenly Universe" but under this are multiple "celestial universes". Each of the un-fallen worlds have their own universe and their own access to the Garden of Eden. We lost access to our gate at the fall when the angel was posted at the gate and Adam was escorted out of Eden. So I believe there are at least 24 universes, one for each of the 24 elders like Adam, before the throne since creation.

The cool thing also is, I believe we can still enter the gate spiritually in Christ. Enoch and Elijah made it through the gate physically by having the "faith OF Jesus". They were examples to the possibility to enter.

If you would read my blog about the Red Heifer, http://redheifersbloodysweat.blogspot.com/2011/12/red-heifer.html
you will see that there is still access through the gate because of what Jesus did in Gethsemane. You'll love it I believe.

Reminds me of someone else's dual personalities and multiple realities, but it would account for stars dying and other things.

I don't think it accounts for stars dying for two reasons. One is that mankind only sinned a few thousand years ago, and the star's death is tied to man's sin (being in this universe). It takes a long, long time for a star to die, and a long time for use to see that it's happened. So how, under this scenario, are we seeing evidence for the death of stars?

The key to the answer of your question is in your question..."the death of stars". Every time astronomers see a white dwarf or remnants of a super nova there is evidence of the death of a star. And since any kind of death is a remnant of sin, it must be the result of sin.



"This so-called "planetary nebula" is the aftermath of the death of a star. a faint green bubble in the white box near the bottom center of the image, the burned-out central star can be seen inside the bubble."

In heaven and in un-fallen worlds, stars never die.

I was also wondering about this in relation to the time when and billions of years after the New Heaven and the New Earth takes place.

I can't imagine our new Sun eventually dying somewhere down the road of eternity.

James, the point is that it takes many millions of years for a star to die, and millions of years, for some of the stars at least that we see such evidence, for us to see this evidence. If we have our own universe, so to speak, and stars do not die without sin, and sin has only existed for a few thousand years, how do we explain the fact that we see such evidence? Such evidence should only be visible, for us at least, after many millions of years.

This would relate to the age being misinterpreted. If you have parallel universes, and one sinned, then disaster happened throughout its whole universe, one could imagine an explosion causing the expansion of the universe (faster than light), therefore the light which looks really old, has also been moving away from us faster than it can get here. And stars dying only started when the universe system sinned.

Not saying I believe any of this any more than the aforementioned multiple realities....

I don't see any reason for the Sun and earth's age to vary relative to the issue.

Regarding some evidence of the raw materials being younger than so thought is another which relates to age being misinterpreted. One of the things I had in mind relates to Radioisotope dating. Here's a link about some of it:
http://grisda.net/subGi/age-of-the-earth/

Isotopes just give counts but there's too many assumptions as to what to make of those counts. Long agers consider the conclusion based upon the assumptions to be facts. However, the only facts are the current decay rates and the current quantities. I don't know if the link goes into it, but I've seem to recall reading that some of the current rates even vary from sample to sample and they just pick an average and discard the "anomalies".

Of course this may not support my idea that the earth and universe is very old...
However, according to the Bible, I believe the earth was here before creation week. How long before is open to speculation as much as everyone else.

Questions: Is entropy sin? How about conservation of energy? What happens when stars give off light?

Could there have been a ceasing of inputs?

What about the rest of the worlds? Are they also seeing stars dying? Or are they seeing the beauty of stars regenerating in an endless cycle of give and take? But then, what prevents a world they are near from "dying"? Or is it time for them to continue filling the universe?

Dear Brother Tom,

What we perceive, and what is truth can only harmonize if seen through the eternal word of God. If God says sin is only 6,000 years old, then there must be an explanation that has not been fully revealed to our understanding. For as the Lord Himself said;

Job 38

1 Then Jehovah answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel By words without knowledge?

3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; For I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding.

No one knows what happened exactly because we were not around to witness the event, so for the safety of our souls we need to consider God the authority. Pray for understanding, for we will only lead ourselves astray if left to our imaginations.

The evidence is obviously swayed to represent this Universe as Billions of years old, but the biblical evidence says 6,000.

In faith we are tested to believe God at His word. Amen.

Where does it say the universe is 6,000 years old?

These are good questions, the kinds I've been pondering.

Regarding entropy, I see two things happening, one being change. For example, if you put a small amount of perfume in a room, eventually the molecules will spread out, and you can smell the perfume through the room. There is a movement of molecule from a more ordered state to a less ordered one. That's one thing. I think we can agree this has nothing to do with sin.

The other part is more interesting. In any system there are inefficiencies where energy gets "lost," mostly in the form of heat. So in the burning of gasoline, for example, only something like 25% gets propelled into energy that moves the car, the other 75% being "lost," mostly as heat. It seems to me without sin these inefficiencies might not exist, and that could have an impact on how things work.

Regarding what other beings viewed, my assumption has been there is one universe, and they see what's going on, and sin does impact what they see, although at a very large distance, I would imagine. After the judgment, the entire universe would be "cleansed" from sin, if that's the appropriate term. This is how I've thought of this.

From Wikipedia;

Young Earth creationism (YEC) is the religious belief that Heavens, Earth, and all life on Earth were created by direct acts of the Abrahamic God during a relatively short period, sometime between 5,700 and 10,000 years ago. Its primary adherents are Christians and Jews who believe that God created the Earth in six 24-hour days, taking what they regard to be a literal interpretation of the Genesis creation narrative as a basis for their beliefs.

Now read this from 'Spirit of Prophecy Vol. 1, pg. 87.'

Chapter 8—Disguised Infidelity

I was then carried back to the creation, and was shown that the first week, in which God performed the work of creation in six days and rested on the seventh day, was just like every other week. The great God, in his days of creation and day of rest, measured off the first cycle as a sample for successive weeks till the close of time. “These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created.” God gives us the productions of his work at the close of each literal day. Each day was accounted of him a generation, because every day he generated or produced some new portion of his work. On the seventh
day of the first week God rested from his work, and then blessed the day of his rest, and set it apart for the use of man. The weekly cycle of seven literal days, six for labor and the seventh for rest, which has been preserved and brought down through Bible history, originated in the great facts of the first seven days.

When God spake his law with an audible voice from Sinai, he introduced the Sabbath by saying, “Remember the Sabbath-day to keep it holy.” He then declares definitely what shall be done on the six days, and what shall not be done on the seventh. He then, in giving the reason for thus observing the week, points them back to his example on the first seven days of time. “For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day, wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath-day and hallowed it.” This reason appears beautiful and forcible when we understand the record of creation to mean literal days. The first six days of each week are given to man in which to labor, because God employed the same period of the first week in the work of creation. The seventh day God has reserved as a day of rest, in commemoration of his rest during the same period of time after he had performed the work of creation in six days.

But the infidel supposition that the events of the first week required seven vast, indefinite periods for their accomplishment, strikes directly at the foundation of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. It makes indefinite and obscure that which God has made very plain. It is the worst kind of infidelity; for with many who profess to believe the record of creation, it is infidelity in
disguise. It charges God with commanding men to observe the week of seven literal days in commemoration of seven indefinite periods, which is unlike his dealings with mortals, and is an impeachment of his wisdom.

Infidel geologists claim that the world is very much older than the Bible record makes it. They reject the Bible record because of those things which are to them evidences from the earth itself that the world has existed tens of thousands of years. And many who profess to believe the Bible record are at a loss to account for wonderful things which are found in the earth, with the view that creation week was only seven literal days, and that the world is now only about six thousand years old. These, to free themselves from difficulties thrown in their way by infidel geologists, adopt the view that the six days of creation were six vast, indefinite periods, and the day of God’s rest was another indefinite period; making senseless the fourth commandment of God’s holy law. Some eagerly receive this position; for it destroys the force of the fourth commandment, and they feel a freedom from its claims upon them. They have limited ideas of the size of men, animals, and trees, before the flood, and of the great changes which then took place in the earth.

Bones of men and animals are found in the earth, in mountains and in valleys, showing that much larger men and beasts once lived upon the earth. I was shown that very large, powerful animals existed before the flood, which do not now exist. Instruments of warfare are sometimes found; also petrified wood. Because the bones of human beings and of animals found in the earth are much larger than those of men and animals
now living, or that have existed for many generations past, some conclude that the world is older than we have any scriptural record of, and was populated long before the record of creation, by a race of beings vastly superior in size to men now upon the earth.

I have been shown that, without Bible history, geology can prove nothing. Relics found in the earth do give evidence of a state of things differing in many respects from the present. But the time of their existence, and how long a period these things have been in the earth, are only to be understood by Bible history. It may be innocent to conjecture beyond Bible history, if our suppositions do not contradict the facts found in the sacred Scriptures. But when men leave the word of God in regard to the history of creation, and seek to account for God’s creative works upon natural principles, they are upon a boundless ocean of uncertainty. Just how God accomplished the work of creation in six literal days, he has never revealed to mortals. His creative works are just as incomprehensible as his existence.

“Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is unsearchable.”

“Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number.”

“Which doeth great things, and unsearchable; marvelous things without number.”

“God thundereth marvelously with his voice; great things doeth he, which we cannot comprehend.”

“Oh! the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor?”

The word of God is given as a lamp unto our feet, and a light unto our path. Those who cast his word behind them, and seek by their own blind philosophy to trace out the wonderful mysteries of Jehovah, will stumble in darkness. A guide has been given to mortals whereby they may trace Jehovah and his works as far as will be for their good. Inspiration, in giving us the history of the flood, has explained wonderful mysteries that geology, independent of inspiration, never could.

It has been the special work of Satan to lead fallen man to rebel against God’s government, and he has succeeded too well in his efforts. He has tried to obscure the law of God, which in itself is very plain. He has manifested a special hate against the fourth precept of the decalogue, because it defines the living God, the maker of the heavens and the earth. The plainest precepts of Jehovah are turned from, to receive infidel fables.

Man will be left without excuse. God has given sufficient evidence upon which to base faith, if he wishes to believe. In the last days, the earth will be almost destitute of true faith. Upon the merest pretense, the word of God will be considered unreliable, while human reasoning will be received, though it be in opposition to plain Scripture facts. Men will endeavor to explain from natural causes the work of creation, which God has never revealed. But human science cannot search out the secrets of the God of Heaven, and explain the stupendous works of creation, which were a miracle of almighty power, any sooner than it can show how God came into existence.
“The secret things belong unto the Lord our God; but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children forever.” Men, professing to be ministers of God, raise their voices against the investigation of prophecy, and tell the people that the prophecies, especially of Daniel and John, are obscure, and that we cannot understand them. But some of the very men who oppose the investigation of prophecy because it is obscure, eagerly receive the suppositions of geologists, which dispute the Mosaic record. But if God’s revealed will is so difficult to be understood, certainly men should not rest their faith upon mere suppositions in regard to that which he has not revealed. God’s ways are not as our ways, neither are his thoughts as our thoughts. Human science can never account for his wondrous works. God so ordered that men, beasts, and trees, many times larger than those now upon the earth, and other things, should be buried in the earth at the time of the flood, and there be preserved to evidence to man that the inhabitants of the old world perished by a flood. God designed that the discovery of these things in the earth should establish the faith of men in inspired history. But men, with their vain reasoning, make a wrong use of these things which God designed should lead them to exalt him. They fall into the same error as did the people before the flood—those things which God gave them as a benefit, they turned into a curse, by making a wrong use of them.

These are good quotes, James. I'm pretty sure kland, however, does not believe in 6 indefinite periods of time, but in 6 24 hour days, as far as the creation week is concern. Indeed, I think everyone posting here believes the first week consisted of 7 literal 24 hour days. The question is whether the earth already existed, as "tohu wabohu" (if I remember my Hebrew correctly), a chaotic state, from which God caused the dry land to emerge.

My question to you still stands, by the way, in regards to how we would see evidence of the death of stars, given it would take millions of years for the light to get here, and many more millions of years for them to die in the first place. Personally I'm inclined towards a young earth/universe perspective, but this is a question which has puzzled me.

Jesus cast the evil angels to earth before creation week began. "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him" (Rev 12:9). Obviously, therefore, the earth existed in some form before creation week began. Ellen wrote:


Apparently our planet was created a long time ago, and then 6,000 years ago Jesus recreated it, surrounded it with our galaxy, and populated it with plants, animals, and people.

Scientific interpretation of deep space photos may be incorrect. What they think pictures death of stars may be something else altogether. I suspect the photos compiled thus far reach no farther than what was created on the fourth day of creation week. If so, then what we're seeing dates back only 6,000 years.

Regarding the Revelation 12 passage:



I don't how you could argue from this that the earth existed before creation week.

Your first quote says:



This implies the earth did not exist ("anticipated creation of the earth ...").

So I'm not following your train of thought.

Also, if you think the earth was "recreated," why would you think it was surrounded by our galaxy? Wouldn't it make sense that the earth was created at the same time the galaxy was?

Also there are other worlds besides our own, with beings on them that already existed. These worlds must have already existed.

That would only make sense for stars which are exactly 6,000 light years away. What's your thinking here?

Regarding the death of stars, there is other evidence than photographs.

If I'm understanding you correctly, it is your opinion that stars could not have died, so any evidence that stars have died must be incorrect? Have I understood you correctly? Is so, why do you feel this way?

Luke 8:30 'Jesus then asked him, What is your name? And he answered, Legion; for many demons had entered him. 31And they begged [Jesus] not to command them to depart into the Abyss (bottomless pit). 32Now a great herd of swine was there feeding on the hillside; and [the demons] begged Him to give them leave to enter these. And He allowed them [to do so]'.

If they could have been sent to the bottomless pit without being destroyed first (death of an angel) then the bottomless pit here spoken of could not be on the surface of earth.

When Satan was sent out of heaven, there was no earth. He was sent into complete emptiness and He and his fallen angels are TERRIFIED of that place. His only access to any light was at the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil masked as the serpent. God created this universe a short time before Adam sinned, then Satan had free reign over the Universe that Adam was created to govern, not before. That is very important to remember.

Death and our interpretation for what this all means is only 6,000 years old.

This universe was a lot smaller when first created 6000 years ago, so the light would have been a lot closer when the really old events seem to have occurred. The space between us and those fallen, seemingly millions of light years away celestial events has been dramatically altered because of the rift in Universal harmony. The Universe was so young when Adam fell, that the space between need to be expanded quickly or the harmful elements of the decaying Universe would wipe out all life on earth. The Father had a wonderful hand in making us secure till the end but Satan has been counter playing everything God does.

He that used to walk amongst the burning stones (stars) now destroys them.

In my view, that is akin to saying that in heaven and un-fallen worlds, pitchers of water never become empty.

Stars are not alive, so "death" is not quite the same for them as they are for living creatures. When you pour water from a pitcher, it eventually runs out. That's what happens when a star "dies": it runs out of material. Does anyone believe that when un-fallen creatures pour water from a pitcher, the water never runs out?

It is possible, of course. Even on this fallen planet, God has caused pitchers to continue pouring well past what would normally be expected. That could be the norm on an un-fallen world, but that would mean that the fundamental laws of nature are very different between here and there.

Sounds like the pitcher is always full in heaven.

A portion of the heat generated in a mechanical system, and thus lost, is due to friction between moving parts. To reduce that inefficiency, we reduce friction. Therefore, we put oil, grease, and other lubricants to minimize friction.

To completely eliminate that inefficiency, we have to eliminate friction. But if all friction is eliminated, we would be slipping and sliding all day.

Just a couple of things to think about, I'm numbering them to sepperate them, not building any type of order. These are things I heard in different sermons and Bible studies such as at Atlantic Union College, Andrews University, Loma Linda, and different Seventh-day Adventist sermons:

1.While Genesis 1 and 2 are about the creation of the world, for the third day when it talks about when the sun and moon was visible from the earth (note: it does not say they were created that day but only in our sky that day) it says that God made the stars also, not indicating that they were created that day but that God was the creator of them.

2. The Mrs. White quote "And many who profess to believe the Bible record are at a loss to account for wonderful things which are found in the earth, with the view that creation week was only seven literal days, and that the world is now only about six thousand years old. These, to free themselves from difficulties thrown in their way by infidel geologists, adopt the view that the six days of creation were six vast, indefinite periods, and the day of God’s rest was another indefinite period; making senseless the fourth commandment of God’s holy law. Some eagerly receive this position; for it destroys the force of the fourth commandment, and they feel a freedom from its claims upon them. They have limited ideas of the size of men, animals, and trees, before the flood, and of the great changes which then took place in the earth."

a.)Does not have Mrs. White herself saying that the world is 6,000 years old, but just that people who want to believe the Bible are saying that 6,000 is too short so they turn to making the litteral days to be longer periods of time instead of holding to the literal week. And she basically says that we don't know enough about the Bible or enough understanding of these changes, that the changes took place a lot faster than the evolutionists theorize. (i.e. Mrs. White has a fast evoluction dealing with the 2 events, the enterance of sin and the changes after the flood, rather than the gradual evolution that the evolutionists teach)

b. When Mrs. White was expanding her earlier writings into Patararchs and Prophets, she came across a passage where she said that the earth was 6,000 years old, she crossed it out and put her initials by the cross out and [and please forgive me that I have forgotten the reference, I had it memorized for a few years, I actually read this; in the summer of 1984 taking a class on Biblical Archaeology, we were required to walk over to the White Estate vault with the reference and see this evidence in person because the professor knew that we would not believe him if he told us... sadly I have to tell you, but this is not reating what a professor or pastor said, but we were actually sent to hold the first hand evidence in our hands and read it] Mrs. White wrote an article where she down plays the 6,000 years. She does argue strongly that Creation week was indeed a literal week, and she argues strongly that the earth is fairly young, however she said that we don't need to hold tightly to the strict 6,000 years, that what ever age we hold for the world just needs to be fair to the Bible.

c. There are many passages where she says things like "for about 6,000 years" "for amost 6,000 years" "for over 6,0000 years" Now while they all keep refering to 6,000 years, she is not discussing the age of the earth in these passages but uses it for a term meaning the sweep of the great cotroversy. Second, it was her editors who made them all read 6,000 years, the passages in her own handwriting uses different numbers with in a couple thousand years.

d. The text from which we add up the ages to get 6,000 years are very ancient texts and had been updated in language much over the centuries (thus giving evidence of the authentisity of those parts of scripture) but with all the translating the numbers have become very hard to read, the ages we have are basically estamates, which gets to about 6,000 to 10,000 years. When looked at the 3 ancient families, the Palistain text (the Bible Jesus used) the best know and best complete is the Dead Sea Scrolls, had the earth become 7,000 years old when Jesus came the first time. The Egyptain family (the Bible Paul used) the best known is the Septuant, different manuscripts has the earth now 7,000 to 10,000 years old. It was the Babylonian family (the Bible of those who stayed in Babylon after the exile) of texts from which we got the masseritic text and the 6,000 years (and there were 2 reasons why we got this to be our Bible. First there was a Rabbi who was originally from Babylon and came to Jerusalem and became a famous Rabbi and he liked the Bible he grew up with. Second, shortly before Jesus, a Rabbi, using the Palistainian Text counting up the ages figured that the word would soon reach the 7,000 year mark and equated the days of creation to the 7,000 years that he believed the world was about to turn so he said that the 7,000 year would be the age of the messiah. When Jesus claimed to be the messiah and Jews rejected him they wanted to push the 7,000th year farther into the future and so they took the Babylonian text so that they could say that the world was only 4,000 years old and thus Jesus could not fulfill what the Rabbi taught about the messiah coming when the world was 7,000 years)

d. You can look up this reference in the March 1984 issue of Ministry mag. In ancient manuscrips they are unfortunetely not consecutive generations. The cuture was to list the important people in the line. When Genesis 5:12-14 talks about Cainan and Mahalaleel, for the ancient manuscrips it would mean that when Cainan was 75 years old he had a child. That child was either Mahalaleel, or else a child who was the direct ancester to Mahalaleel.

In conclusion to this session: We can be very strict that creation was 7 litteral days and that the earth is certanly not the millions or billions of years old, but a fairly young earth. However the Bible gives us permission to be flexable with the 6,000 number. And we have the age of the universe as older than this.

3. That Satan was cast to this earth before the creation comes from John Milton. Mrs. White really does not say either way, but some of my professors have read passages where she says some things that might have the final fall to the earth be when Revelation places it: Revelation 12 had Jesus born, crucified, raised and assesded to heaven where there was war in heaven and the dragon no longer had a place in heaven.

I am again sorry that I do not have the reference for the article that Mrs. White wrote that down plays the 6,000 years. But these are things that have been pointed out to me from the teaching arm of the Seventh-day Adventist church, much of it being what we had to go to the libarary to get the first hand reference. These are just pieces of evidence that we should keep in a corner of our mind as we study this topic.

Not really. Those quotes refer to the experience of living organisms. Extrapolating that to pitchers of water is unwarranted.

If what you say is true in heaven, then you could put a spoonful of soup in your mouth, pull out the spoon, and still have a spoonful of soup in the spoon. Do you believe the laws of nature will change that dramatically?

Let's apply that concept to people. If pitchers are always full, would people also always be full, never needing a refill? If so, we would not need to eat or drink. Is that how you see it?

I have a video where a scientist (forgot if it was astronomer or astrophysicist) reveals that there is evidence that some celestial objects (globular clusters, I think) are not as far away as generally believed by the scientific community. I'll try to find and upload it.

I know what your saying is true on the pitcher being magically filled, It was a metaphor. The source of the object in the pitcher would never run out though, don't you agree?

The oil would flow from a pitcher forever in the hands of Jesus and His true followers. Perfect precedence in scripture.

2 Kings 4:6 'And it came to pass, when the vessels were full, that she said unto her son, Bring me yet another vessel. And he said unto her, There is not a vessel more. And the oil stayed.

The bread could be broke into an infinite amount of pieces by the disciples, with Jesus by their side.

Now take into consideration nothing dies, nothing corrodes, nothing fades. Perfectly connected to the source of life.

Heavenly Knowledge Will Be Progressive—All the treasures of the universe will be open to the study of God’s redeemed. Unfettered by mortality, they wing their tireless flight to worlds afar—worlds that thrilled with sorrow at the spectacle of human woe and rang with songs of gladness at the tidings of a ransomed soul. With unutterable delight the children of earth enter into the joy and the wisdom of unfallen beings. They share the treasures of knowledge and understanding gained through the ages upon ages in contemplation of God’s handiwork. With undimmed vision they gaze upon the glory of creation—suns and stars and systems, all in their appointed order circling the throne of Deity. Upon all things, from the least to the greatest, the Creator’s name is written, and in all are the riches of His power displayed. {AH 548.1}

And the years of eternity, as they roll, will bring richer and still more glorious revelations of God and of Christ. As knowledge is progressive, so will love, reverence, and happiness increase. The more men learn of God, the greater will be their admiration of His character.5 {AH 548.2}

Amen, our heavenly knowlege will be progressive. What may appear to be stars dieing to us we are looking at the event through our expirence. Leave room that this was something that was used to continue life that we will learn more about when we get to heaven.

Where did the evil angels go when they were cast out of heaven the first time?

On what day of creation week was the void and formless and water covered planet created?

What was created on the fourth day?

I doubt we have the ability to see unfallen planets. Don't have proof, though. All the star light we can see from earth and through space-based cameras could be older than 6,000 years, especially if our planet was created in the midst of it afterward. As to stars dying, I can't say for sure. Before sin, though, I doubt stars died. And, I doubt stars outside our galaxy would die. Death is the result of sin, and no one outside our galaxy has sinned (assuming evil angels were "cast into the earth"). Their ability to roam the universe most likely did not result in causing death in unfallen galaxies. Since the cross, though, I doubt evil angels are free to roam the universe any more.

What about the plants we eat?

1. Evil angels rebelled in heaven.
2. They were "cast out into the earth".
3. Jesus created mankind "to inhabit the earth".


The earth in its void, formless, water-covered state existed before the first day of creation week.

Sorry brother, but I don't see in your quote what you said in #2 of your list, that Satan was "cast out into the earth" immediately after his fall.

There is no way God would subject us to the wrath of Satan without first committing sin and joining him in his rebellion. Satan was not permitted to bother us except at the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then when Eve sinned, then Adam, that is when Satan was permitted to leave his prison of darkness and start destroying the world.

In fact, in the above mentioned quote it shows that man was created after Satan fell. Are you trying to sell me the idea that God would send Satan here before He created the wonderful unfallen world and Satan had earth as a home before Adam?

That would be a tainted view in my eyes.

"The wilderness temptation Christ endured was a personal conflict with the wicked one who had shown himself to be the author of sin. Satan was once a covering cherub in the heavenly courts, the angel next in power to Christ Himself. But he lifted himself up against God and induced some of the angels to join him in rebellion. There was war in heaven, and Satan and his followers were cast out. Expelled from heaven, Satan determined to set up a kingdom on this earth and win the human race to his side. But Christ pledged His word that if humans were overcome by temptation, He, the Son of God, would be their surety." {CTr 200.2}

Here it becomes clear, Satan was first cast out of heaven THEN Satan determined to set up a kingdom on this earth. In no way shape or form was it God's will that he come here. That would be making God look Satanic.

'That the expression “bottomless pit” represents the earth in a state of confusion and darkness is evident from other scriptures. Concerning the condition of the earth “in the beginning,” the Bible record says that it “was without form, and void (nothing there); and darkness was upon the face of the deep.” Genesis 1:2. Prophecy teaches that it will be brought back, partially at least, to this condition...'

So the world was not here before creation and it will be brought partially back to this condition after the second coming. The only thing that will remain is the earth itself, torn to shreds.

'Here is to be the home of Satan with his evil angels for a thousand years. Limited to the earth, he will not have access to other worlds to tempt and annoy those who have never fallen. It is in this sense that he is bound: there are none remaining, upon whom he can exercise his power. He is wholly cut off from the work of deception and ruin which for so many centuries has been his sole delight.' {Mar 307.4}

Satan has had access to the un-fallen worlds through his access to the gate to heaven, which he is witnessed accessing in the book of Job 1:6 'Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.”

But when Jesus was born, lived, and died, then ascended to heaven, Satan was cast out of the heavenly courts because Christ had become the second Adam meaning the new representative of Earth. I hope you see. Peace.

People don't seem to get what an exalted position Adam fell from.

He was considered a created "son of God". The twenty four elders before the throne are also created "sons of God". They are the high priests of their worlds and are seen holding the Golden censors for their people's prayers to ascend to God.

Rev5:8 'And when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Adam lost his position and Satan became the representative of earth until Jesus came and became the second Adam. Now Jesus holds the Golden censor for the prayers of our world to ascend mixed with His merits.

Just so you know, I am in perfect confidence with Christ and His Father through the Holy Spirit in this matter at this exact moment. You are witnessing the Holy Spirit move through me right now. Sent by Jesus, in His Holy name, amen.

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him" (Rev 12:7-9). In what sense were evils angels "cast into the earth"?

"Then there was war in heaven. . . and Satan and his sympathizers were expelled from heaven". {SR 19.1} Where did they go?

"Cast out of heaven, Satan set up his kingdom in this world, and ever since, he has been untiringly striving to seduce human beings from their allegiance to God." {7BC 973.5} When did he set up his kingdom here?

Also, you wrote - "You are witnessing the Holy Spirit move through me right now." What do you mean? Are you saying your words here reflects the mind of God?

Before I answer any of your questions, you answer mine first please.

Did God create the earth to cast the devil on it, or for Adam?

Was the devil here before God created a perfect planet? Doesn't sound very perfect to me with him here.

Is the bible in error when it says Satan appeared at the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil, no where else after his fall until Adam sinned?

You pray about it and see if God answers you. If He doesn't, that usually means there is nothing He can do to force your opinion. If He does then you will see the truth.

Yes my God does answer my prayers powerfully. And yes I do hear His voice in and through the Holy Spirit, If that answers the question that I had already answered several times throughout everything I have written here. Lets see what you do with the information that you so challengingly asked.

"With the earliest history of man, Satan began his efforts to deceive our race. He who had incited rebellion in heaven desired to bring the inhabitants of the earth to unite with him in his warfare against the government of God. Adam and Eve had been perfectly happy in obedience to the law of God, and this fact was a constant testimony against the claim which Satan had urged in heaven, that God’s law was oppressive and opposed to the good of His creatures. And furthermore, Satan’s envy was excited as he looked upon the beautiful home prepared for the sinless pair. He determined to cause their fall, that, having separated them from God and brought them under his own power, he might gain possession of the earth and here establish his kingdom in opposition to the Most High. {DD 13.1}
Had Satan revealed himself in his real character, he would have been repulsed at once, for Adam and Eve had been warned against this dangerous foe; but he worked in the dark, concealing his purpose, that he might more effectually accomplish his object. Employing as his medium the serpent, then a creature of fascinating appearance, he addressed himself to Eve: “Hath God said, ‘Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?” Genesis 3:1. Had Eve refrained from entering into argument with the tempter, she would have been safe; but she ventured to parley with him and fell a victim to his wiles. It is thus that many are still overcome. They doubt and argue concerning the requirements of God; and instead of obeying the divine commands, they accept human theories, which but disguise the devices of Satan." {DD 13.2}

Like the theory that the earth is billions of years old and Satan has been here since the beginning. Shame on the brother who teaches this.

The Fall of Satan
Satan was once an honored angel in heaven, next to Christ. His countenance, like those of the other angels, was mild and expressive of happiness. His forehead was high and broad, showing great intelligence. His form was perfect; his bearing noble and majestic. But when God said to His Son, “Let us make man in our image,” Satan was jealous of Jesus. He wished to be consulted concerning the formation of man, and because he was not, he was filled with envy, jealousy, and hatred. He desired to receive the highest honors in heaven next to God. {EW 145.1}
Until this time all heaven had been in order, harmony, and perfect subjection to the government of God. It was the highest sin to rebel against His order and will. All heaven seemed in commotion. The angels were marshaled in companies, each division with a higher commanding angel at its head. Satan, ambitious to exalt himself, and unwilling to submit to the authority of Jesus, was insinuating against the government of God. Some of the angels sympathized with Satan in his rebellion, and others strongly contended for the honor and wisdom of God in giving authority to His Son. There was contention among the angels. Satan and his sympathizers were striving to reform the government of God. They wished to look into His unsearchable wisdom, and ascertain His purpose in exalting Jesus and endowing Him with such unlimited power and command. They rebelled against the authority of the Son. All the heavenly host were summoned to appear before the Father to have each case decided. It was there determined that Satan should be expelled from heaven, with all the angels who had joined him in the rebellion. Then there was war in heaven. Angels were engaged in the battle; Satan wished to conquer the Son of God and those who were submissive to His will. But the good and true angels prevailed, and Satan, with his followers, was driven from heaven. {EW 145.2}
After Satan and those who fell with him were shut out of heaven, and he realized that he had forever lost all its purity and glory, he repented, and wished to be reinstated in heaven. He was willing to take his proper place, or any position that might be assigned him. But no; heaven must not be placed in jeopardy. All heaven might be marred should he be taken back; for sin originated with him, and the seeds of rebellion were within him. Both he and his followers wept, and implored to be taken back into the favor of God. But their sin—their hatred, their envy and jealousy—had been so great that God could not blot it out. It must remain to receive its final punishment. {EW 146.1}
When Satan became fully conscious that there was no possibility of his being brought again into favor with God, his malice and hatred began to be manifest. He consulted with his angels, and a plan was laid to still work against God’s government. When Adam and Eve were placed in the beautiful garden, Satan was laying plans to destroy them. In no way could this happy couple be deprived of their happiness if they obeyed God. Satan could not exercise his power upon them unless they should first disobey God and forfeit His favor. Some plan must therefore be devised to lead them to disobedience that they might incur God’s frown and be brought under the more direct influence of Satan and his angels. It was decided that Satan should assume another form and manifest an interest for man. He must insinuate against God’s truthfulness and create doubt whether God did mean just what He said; next, he must excite their curiosity, and lead them to pry into the unsearchable plans of God—the very sin of which Satan had been guilty—and reason as to the cause of His restrictions in regard to the tree of knowledge. {EW 146.2}
The Fall of Man
Holy angels often visited the garden, and gave instruction to Adam and Eve concerning their employment and also taught them concerning the rebellion and fall of Satan. The angels warned them of Satan and cautioned them not to separate from each other in their employment, for they might be brought in contact with this fallen foe. (In the Garden) The angels also enjoined upon them to follow closely the directions God had given them, for in perfect obedience only were they safe. Then this fallen foe could have no power over them. {EW 147.1}
Satan commenced his work with Eve, to cause her to disobey. She first erred in wandering from her husband, next in lingering around the forbidden tree, and next in listening to the voice of the tempter, and even daring to doubt what God had said, “In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” She thought that perhaps the Lord did not mean just what He said, and venturing, she put forth her hand, took of the fruit and ate. It was pleasing to the eye and pleasant to the taste. Then she was jealous that God had withheld from them what was really for their good, and she offered the fruit to her husband, thereby tempting him. She related to Adam all that the serpent had said and expressed her astonishment that he had the power of speech. {EW 147.2}
I saw a sadness come over Adam’s countenance. He appeared afraid and astonished. A struggle seemed to be going on in his mind. He felt sure that this was the foe against whom they had been warned, and that his wife must die. They must be separated. His love for Eve was strong, and in utter discouragement he resolved to share her fate. He seized the fruit and quickly ate it. Then Satan exulted. He had rebelled in heaven, and had gained sympathizers who loved him and followed him in his rebellion. He had fallen and caused others to fall with him. And he had now tempted the woman to distrust God, to inquire into His wisdom, and to seek to penetrate His all-wise plans. Satan knew that the woman would not fall alone. Adam, through his love for Eve, disobeyed the command of God, and fell with her. {EW 148.1}
The news of man’s fall spread through heaven. Every harp was hushed. The angels cast their crowns from their heads in sorrow. All heaven was in agitation. A council was held to decide what must be done with the guilty pair. The angels feared that they would put forth the hand, and eat of the tree of life, and become immortal sinners. But God said that He would drive the transgressors from the garden. Angels were immediately commissioned to guard the way of the tree of life. It had been Satan’s studied plan that Adam and Eve should disobey God, receive His frown, and then partake of the tree of life, that they might live forever in sin and disobedience, and thus sin be immortalized. But holy angels were sent to drive them out of the garden, and to bar their way to the tree of life. Each of these mighty angels had in his right hand something which had the appearance of a glittering sword. {EW 148.2}
Then Satan triumphed. He had made others suffer by his fall. He had been shut out of heaven, they out of Paradise. {EW 149.1}

Where is the garden and tree of life right now? Is it not in the New Jerusalem in heaven? Every unfallen created being goes there to eat of it. It is in the presence of the Father, the giver of life, and the river of life flows through it. The garden is the Gate to heaven. But every created being was to be tested by the tree of knowledge of good and evil which was also in the midst of the Garden. Satan and his angels were in a prison of darkness until Adam was cast out of Eden and opened the way for Satan and all of the fallen angels to leave their prison, the place the demons are terrified of. The place that is coming for them again, but this time on top of being exiled into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth they also have to witness the end results of their rebellion and be forced to stay upon the remains of the earth which they destroyed.

You wrote, "Lets see what you do with the information that you so challengingly asked." I'm not sure what you meant by this, but please understand that I mean no harm. My questions are asked in all honesty and sincerity. I am a true seeker.

1. "Did God create the earth to cast the devil on it, or for Adam?" I believe Jesus created innumerable planets throughout the far-flung universe a long, long time ago. Perhaps He intended to populate them with free moral agents over time. Maybe He intended for humans to increase in numbers and populate them over time. At any rate, 6,000 years ago Jesus recreated earth for mankind. But before He did so, He cast the evil angels here. Creating us on the same planet He cast the evils angels suggests He was giving A&E an opportunity to disprove Satan's accusations and to establish God's honor and glory beyond all question or doubt.

2. "Was the devil here before God created a perfect planet? Doesn't sound very perfect to me with him here." Yes, the evil angels were here before Jesus recreated it with plants, animals, and A&E. Of course, their access to A&E was restricted to the forbidden tree.

3. "Is the bible in error when it says Satan appeared at the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil, no where else after his fall until Adam sinned?" I'm not certain where it says so in the Bible, but Ellen makes it very clear it was even so.


Do you have the gift of prophecy? If so, is it equivalent in authority to the ministry of prophets like Paul, John, and Ellen?


I would be interested in hearing your answers to my questions. Thank you.

It was nice talking with you. I'm sure you will understand if I chose not to continue this argument.

Peace.

Yes, of course. It was good. God bless.

I've been thinking I'm not sure friction relates to stars burning and burning out. When friction is involved, that is from a side effect of the targeted purpose. However, for a star to be burning, I don't see how friction is involved. The targeted goal is to burn!

If stars burning out happened only after sin, then it would mean before sin, they did not burn out, which would then imply there is no conservation of energy. Which then would bring into question, is conservation of energy a result of sin? Meaning, before sin there was no conservation of energy? Which then, without sin, would there be perpetual motion machines?

This creates some situations I cannot understand.

Further thinking didn't help much. A piece of wood left exposed to the elements will soon rot away. I would agree this is a result of sin. However, if I burn a piece of wood, it disappears, it is "used up". The process is no different. The oxidation reaction is merely sped up. (Can you start a fire in heaven?)


Which then gave the question as if the mere process of combustion, whether slowly or quickly, is a result of sin. Which then brought up whether stars burned before sin?.....

(Maybe they only reflected?)

I'm pretty sure it does not. I was referring to mechanical processes like turning the potential energy of gasoline into the kinetic energy of a moving car. Come to think of it, if there was no friction, the engine would be extremely efficient, but the car cannot go anywhere because the tires would have no traction.

Anyway, the energy conversion in a star is about as efficient as it gets: E=mc^2.


Not necessarily. I could also mean that God continually refills it, like a giant basket of fish and bread.


I think that question can help lead us to some solid conclusions.

My answer is that we can start a fire in heaven. And if the fire goes out, I don't think that would be caused by sin.

But if God has to refill it, that would mean the star is being consumed. Unless all energy is "recycled" through God?


A further thought is, what would it burn? Something dead and dry?

But I don't think the fire going out is the issue, but the star being consumed.

Another thought along the same line: What process happens when the lion eats grass in a perfect universe?

Tom, Arnold, and Kland, would you mind answering the following questions:

1. "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him" (Rev 12:7-9). In what sense were evils angels "cast into the earth"?

2. "Then there was war in heaven. . . and Satan and his sympathizers were expelled from heaven". {SR 19.1} Where did they go?

3. "Cast out of heaven, Satan set up his kingdom in this world, and ever since, he has been untiringly striving to seduce human beings from their allegiance to God." {7BC 973.5} When did he set up his kingdom here?

Satan was cast out of heaven by degrees.

-First out of the throne room of the Father,

-Then out of the presence of angels into the darkness.

-Then he made Adam to sin letting him out of his jail to enter before the angels again.

-Then when he lead men to kill the Son of God on the cross it forever cast him out of the hearts of everyone in heaven.

Here is proof.

"The casting down of Satan as an accuser of the brethren in heaven was accomplished by the great work of Christ in giving up His life. Notwithstanding Satan’s persistent opposition, the plan of redemption was being carried out. Man was esteemed of sufficient value for Christ to sacrifice His life for him. Satan, knowing that the empire he had usurped would in the end be wrested from him, determined to spare no pains to destroy as many as possible of the creatures whom God had created in His image. He hated man because Christ had manifested for him such forgiving love and pity, and he now prepared to practice upon him every species of deception by which he might be lost; he pursued his course with more energy because of his own hopeless condition (The Spirit of Prophecy 3:194, 195).

(2 Corinthians 5:19; Philippians 2:6.) Satan Uprooted From Affections of the Universe—In carrying out his enmity to Christ until He hung upon the cross of Calvary, with wounded, bruised body and broken heart, Satan completely uprooted himself from the affections of the universe. It was then seen that God had in His Son denied Himself, giving Himself for the sins of the world, because He loved mankind. The Creator was revealed in the Son of the infinite God. Here the question, “Can there be self-denial with God?” was forever answered. Christ was God, and condescending to be made flesh, He assumed humanity and became obedient unto death, that He might undergo infinite sacrifice (Manuscript 50, 1900).

(John 3:14-17; Galatians 6:14; Hebrews 9:22.) Accusing Power of Satan Broken—Christ on the cross, not only draws men to repentance toward God for the transgression of His law—for whom God pardons He first makes penitent—but Christ has satisfied justice; He has proffered Himself as an atonement. His gushing blood, His broken body, satisfy the claims of the broken law, and thus He bridges the gulf which sin has made. He suffered in the flesh that with His bruised and broken body He might cover the defenseless sinner. The victory gained at His death on Calvary broke forever the accusing power of Satan over the universe, and silenced his charges that self-denial was impossible with God and therefore not essential in the human family (Manuscript 50, 1900).

"Like the apostles, the seventy had received supernatural endowments as a seal of their mission. When their work was completed, they returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through Thy name.” Jesus answered, “I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.” {DA 490.1}
The scenes of the past and the future were presented to the mind of Jesus. He beheld Lucifer as he was first cast out from the heavenly places. He looked forward to the scenes of His own agony, when before all the worlds the character of the deceiver should be unveiled. He heard the cry, “It is finished” (John 19:30), announcing that the redemption of the lost race was forever made certain, that heaven was made eternally secure against the accusations, the deceptions, the pretensions, that Satan would instigate. {DA 490.2}
Beyond the cross of Calvary, with its agony and shame, Jesus looked forward to the great final day, when the prince of the power of the air will meet his destruction in the earth so long marred by his rebellion. Jesus beheld the work of evil forever ended, and the peace of God filling heaven and earth. {DA 490.3}
Henceforward Christ’s followers were to look upon Satan as a conquered foe. Upon the cross, Jesus was to gain the victory for them; that victory He desired them to accept as their own. “Behold,” He said, “I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.” {DA 490.4}

Satan being cast out of heaven was finalized at the cross, but here Jesus also made it clear that when men shall do His will and cast out demons from the minds of others, Satan is also being cast down then.

"But the work of human redemption is not all that is accomplished by the cross. The love of God is manifested to the universe. The prince of this world is cast out. The accusations which Satan has brought against God are refuted. The reproach which he has cast upon heaven is forever removed. Angels as well as men are drawn to the Redeemer. “I, if I be lifted up from the earth,” He said, “will draw all unto Me.” {DA 626.1}

James,

You posted this passage, "The casting down of Satan as an accuser of the brethren in heaven was accomplished by the great work of Christ in giving up His life." During which degree or stage did this happen (referring to your list above)?

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him" (Rev 12:7-9). During which degree or stage did this happen?

You wrote, "Then out of the presence of angels into the darkness." Where is this "darkness"?

Mark5:6 And when he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshipped him; 7 and crying out with a loud voice, he saith, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the Most High God? I adjure thee by God, torment me not. 8 For he said unto him, Come forth, thou unclean spirit, out of the man. 9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he saith unto him, My name is Legion; for we are many. 10 And he (the demon) besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.

Luke 8:31 And they entreated him that he would not command them to depart into the abyss.

They did not want to be tormented in that place of darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. They hated the thought so much they would rather be cast into the sea inside a pig. How did they learn of this place to fear it so much? Because they had already experienced it at their fall.

The second resurrection has all of these elements but is for the unrepentant sinners to suffer the same fate while being sustained with a place to stand for men to see the judgment.

James, the universe was perfect when Jesus created it. The "place of darkness" you described "where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth" did not exist. When did Jesus create it? Where was it then, and where is it now?

You posted this passage, "The casting down of Satan as an accuser of the brethren in heaven was accomplished by the great work of Christ in giving up His life." During which degree or stage did this happen (referring to your list above)?

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him" (Rev 12:7-9). During which degree or stage did this happen?

Brother, do I have to do your investigation for you? Or could you make a little effort yourself seeing it is so important for you to understand?

First off how could the universe be perfect if as you say Satan was already here?

If you would read just one verse further in the Rev 12 text quoted, you would see when this happened (not to mention the SOP texts that have already been quoted). OK here it is, open up. This is when Satan was permanently cast out of heaven...

If you will look at the quoted chapter 12 in Revelation, you see Jesus ascended to heaven in verse 5. But in verse 10 is where Satan was permanently cast out...

10 And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night.

How could Satan accuse the brethren if when Satan was originally cast out of heaven they weren't created yet?

You find this same theme throughout the new testament including...

Colossians 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. 13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Here's more support.

Look at Rev 12:9 "And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him."

1: how could Satan be the "ancient serpent" here if this is when he was originally kicked out of heaven? Satan became the serpent at his fall and there wasn't an ancient past for the world before that time because Adam fell at the beginning.

2: the "deceiver of the whole world" proves there was a whole world to deceive, not just two people like at the beginning of earth. So this is when Jesus became the second Adam, thus Satan was cast out of the place of meeting for the sons of God.

I see two casting outs here; one around the time of creation and the other around the time of the cross or tree of Calvary.

Yes, this is correct. There were two castings out of Satan from heaven.

The final casting out is from each of our hearts. We are living in the last days and soon those who have not completely cast Satan out of their hearts will be lost, even if they have heard and received the good news.

This last day "casting out" is symbolized by the "scape Goat" part of the Atonement. Being lead by the Strong man out of the camp into the land of forgetfulness.

Oh, I'm sorry, I'm not asking you to answer my questions because I don't have time to research the answers. My questions are aimed at learning what you believe about it.


Was the universe perfect before the angels sinned? Or, did "the place of darkness" you described "where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth" exist before they sinned? If not, when did Jesus create it? And, where is it?


Thank you for answering my question. It is clear to me now you believe Rev 12 describes Satan and his angels being "cast into the earth" after Jesus returned to heaven. However, what is not clear to me is where you believe the evil angels were sent when they were first "driven" out of heaven. Were they sent to "the place of darkness" you described "where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth"? If not, where were they sent?

"Here is to be the home of Satan with his evil angels for a thousand years. Limited to the earth, he will not have access to other worlds to tempt and annoy those who have never fallen. It is in this sense that he is bound: there are none remaining, upon whom he can exercise his power. He is wholly cut off from the work of deception and ruin which for so many centuries has been his sole delight." {GC 659.1}

When Satan was first cast out of heaven they were in a nondescript place of nothing, with no presence at all of anything good. No input from the Father, angels or Holy Spirit. No urging from God to repent, complete silence. Satan was shown how dependent all created beings are to the creator without whom there is not even a place to stand.

The fallen angels were left alone to their thoughts and to each others shameful countenance. The only portal to any light was blinding for them in their fallen condition, but was endured by their representative Satan in the form of a serpent in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The place where the evil one was allowed freedom of speech even in his fallen condition.

Where this place was or is, since demons talk about it as a place to be feared in the new testament, is not as important as 'what' it is. It is 'perdition', cut off from the Father. The second death Jesus willingly suffered for us in Gethsemane was fulfilling our perdition for us. If He wasn't 'cut off', but not for Himself, in the midst of the 70th week of Daniel, we would all be lost.

James, thank you for explaining your point of view. I hadn't heard such a place existed. I have always assumed God's omnipresence made such a place non-existant.

"And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth." When did Satan cast the angels from heaven to earth?

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels." When did this war happen in heaven? Was it before or after Satan cast a third of the angels from heaven to earth? If afterward, were the evil angels admitted back into heaven in order to wage war in heaven?

Here are some other interesting astronomy thoughts...

Has anyone else heard about where in the sky Jesus is to appear at His second coming?

"then we could look up through the open space in Orion, whence came the voice of God. The holy city will come down through that open space. {CET 111.2}

Here is in interesting thought; the sword of Orion's belt is oriented precisely over the celestial equator, so during spring or fall Equinox the whole world can see that part of the sky for around seven days. From pole to pole, the whole world can see that same constellation for those seven days.

Think on this for a season... the festival that celebrates the second coming of Jesus and the going home of the saints, happens on and around equinox; It is the feast of Tabernacles.

"Canst thou ...loose the bands of Orion?" This in reference to the coming of the Lord who will come through an opening through Orion at His second appearing.

Guess what the second star of the sword of Orion is?

It is the Horse head nebula



Revelation 19:11 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war."

Peace

Satan didn't cast them down, his lie or 'tail' drew them to falling.

The angels were in heaven when his "tail . . . did cast them to the earth." When did this happen?

"And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth." When did Satan cast the angels from heaven to earth?

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels." When did this war happen in heaven? Was it before or after Satan cast a third of the angels from heaven to earth? If afterward, were the evil angels admitted back into heaven in order to wage war in heaven?

The war in heaven began before man was created. But it was "finished" at the cross.

The war on Earth is still raging until the end of probation when Michael throws down the censor and says "it is finished" again.

"And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth." Does this passage imply earth existed when Satan cast the angels out of heaven? If so, did he cast them from heaven to earth before Jesus created A&E? Or, did he cast them from heaven to earth when Jesus cried "It is finished" on the cross? If so, did the evil angels reside in heaven until Jesus cried "It is finished" on the cross?

Also, does the war, in a general sense, continue until the day Lucifer dies in the lake of fire and the earth is made new?

Luke 11:24 “When the unclean spirit has gone out... it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and finding none it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’

Satan's lie drew 1/3 of the angels to fall but they had nowhere to go. Satan showed himself at the Garden of Eden to Eve and caused her fall who in the same pattern as the devil then led Adam to fall. Then the fallen angels had a home and Satan was the representative of Earth until the second Adam Jesus.

During the period after Adams fall, but before Jesus came, only Satan was permitted, as in the book of Job, into the assembly chamber of heaven where the 'sons of God' come before the throne. The other demons stayed here on earth while Satan came before God.

Jesus came and took the crown of earth away from the devil and now stands in the place that Adam once held. This is when Satan was permanently cast out of heaven and since he was the representative of the fallen angels they all lost their voice there.

We are at the end of the Great controversy. The war in heaven is finished and has been since the cross.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.

"Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time. Revelation 12:12.

Now Satan is more determined than ever to destroy the people of God because he knows his head has been bruised and death is coming for him and he is trying to hurt God as much as he can.

He lost his place in heaven, then lost the place he stole from Adam in heaven. Now he is being cast out of the hearts of the people of God and will be incarcerated for 1000 years at the second coming.

THEN after the 1000 year abyss, during the final act of rebellion against God, while trying to overthrow the gates of heaven he will be cast to the ground before the heavenly universe in judgment as recorded in Ezechiel 28;

13 You were in Eden, the garden of God...
14 You were an anointed guardian cherub...
you were on the holy mountain of God;
in the midst of the stones of fire (stars) you walked.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created,
till unrighteousness was found in you.
16 In the abundance of your trade (lies)
you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned;
so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God...
I cast you to the ground;
I exposed you before kings,
to feast their eyes on you.
18 By the multitude of your iniquities,
in the unrighteousness of your trade
you profaned your sanctuaries;
so I brought fire out from your midst;
it consumed you.

James, thank you. I happen to believe the evil angels were cast to earth before Jesus recreated it and populated it with plants, animals, and people. I realize you disagree.

Jesus recreated the earth?

You mean, that's where you think the fossils come from?

Fossils? They are part of the Flood. By "recreated" I'm referring to what Jesus did with our planet 6,000 years ago, namely, He spoke and thereby rearranged the water-covered planet into plants, animals, and people. I believe He initially created our water-covered planet a long, long time ago. It sat in space uninhabited until Jesus recreated it 6,000 years ago.

Ah. But the way you re-said it makes sound like he worked with existing material to create plants, animals, and people. I think that's possible and makes sense, but it appears Ellen White cautions against that.

The preexisting water and minerals He worked with were also created by Jesus. Some people think "replenish the earth" in the proclamation "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it" implies previous inhabitants suffered extinction. I disagree.

Water CANNOT come into existence without an atmosphere. The atmosphere cannot exist without a sun. The sun was created on the fourth day of creation. Your reasoning does not even follow rational scientific methodology let alone biblical reasoning. But you go ahead with teaching your comprehension. We'll see what it gets you in the end.

To be clear, on the first day of creation there was light, but it was not from the celestial sun, it was the creative power of God, that under this power separated the atmosphere and sustained the plants. But there was not the order of things that could supply one bit of support for your theory.

Much of what you teach are from the church of Scientology. Just thought you would like to know that since you claim to be Adventist.

Job 38
The LORD Answers Job
1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:
2 “Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Dress for action like a man;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.
4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
7 when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 “Or who shut in the sea with doors
when it burst out from the womb,
9 when I made clouds its garment
and thick darkness its swaddling band,
10 and prescribed limits for it
and set bars and doors,
11 and said, ‘Thus far shall you come, and no farther,
and here shall your proud waves be stayed’?

From now on Brother Mountain-man, I will only accept a "thus sayest the Lord" because I don't see you quoting scripture your hypothesis is highly suspect.

Why not? There are huge blocks of ice floating around the solar system that do not have an atmosphere.

Of course, keeping the water liquid would require a heat source that keeps it between 0 and 100 degrees Celsius.


Why not? All it takes is a mass with enough gravity to hold the air down. The solar wind actually tends to blow away the atmosphere.

James, please go easy on me. I'm not the evil person you think I am. I am basing my beliefs on Genesis.

1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

The dark, formless, void, water covered earth was created "in the beginning". However, on the first day of creation week the only thing Jesus created was "light".

"Water CANNOT come into existence without an atmosphere. The atmosphere cannot exist without a sun." Are you a physicists? You are making some interesting assumptions.

I didn't call you evil. I am stating facts about the statements you make.

Do you know what "void" means? It means empty, Not there. You are looking at the text like an American who does not know Hebrew. The next time the word "Void" is used for earth is to make the point that that the earth is as close to not being here as you can get while not discounting the prophecies that it will always remain. This is the correct order of things, not the other way around.

The first verse, Gen 1:1 sets the stage. God is about to create the heavens of our earth. This not 'heaven' where God dwells but the heavens of earth, or our universe.

The second verse shows there was nothing in existence when He began. It also shows that at this point the only water in existence was the water of life, the Spirit of God in heaven. The same water that flows from His throne. This is His creative power or Holy Spirit. We are witnessing His Holy Spirit go forth to create our Universe by his word.

The third verse is the actual point of entry for anything to come into existence for this Universe. Like a giant placenta or incubator, God shared His glory with our space first. This is the light from Him to create and sustain life before there was a sun moon or stars.

You look at this verse as if it can be explained by material, scientific, Empirical evidence.

"Infidel geologists claim that the world is very much older than the Bible record makes it. They reject the Bible record, because of those things which are to them evidences from the earth itself, that the world has existed tens of thousands (billions) of years. And many who profess to believe the Bible record are at a loss to account for wonderful things which are found in the earth, with the view that creation week was only seven literal days, and that the world is now only about six thousand years old."{3SG 91.2}

You need to be careful because you are trying to teach heresy to the children of God. That is why I feel inspired to treat you sternly, to make a definite point as to what you are attempting to do in the presence of God's people. Not to be mean. Would you rather that I not follow what I am inspired to warn you about?

Assumptions? Actually I have intensively studied the subjects of physics longer than it takes to get a master degree or pH D, for 17 years. If it weren't for the fact that there is no accredited degree for creationism I would have one. But how about if I site others who do have degrees? Would that suffice?

Why does the moon not have water (except perhaps at the southern pole where comet debris is known to exist)? Because there is no atmosphere.

Quoting "A stable environment for water-ice Formation of Snow & Ice Masses term project" Professor Steve Warren, March 12, 2009

"The lunar atmospheric pressure, 100 Pa, is below the triple point of water. Therefore, liquid water cannot exist in the natural lunar environment. In this low-pressure environment (no atmosphere), ice sublimates at just above 240 K, which is just below the minimum lunar daytime temperature range 250-400 K [1]. Thus, solid ice is stable only in shadowed, sunless areas, where the temperature is 120 K or colder."

"Water is obviously the main ingredient for life to exist here and probably anywhere in the universe, but it must exist in all three forms on a planet in a habitable zone in order for it to work. If the planet is too hot there will be no water in the liquid state for any chemical reactions to take place to support life. The molecules will never come to together to create life and eventually evolve into a more complex organism. Also the organism may not survive the extreme heat since water broils at certain temperature depending on the atmospheric pressure. On the other hand, if the planet is too cold the water would exist as ice. No chemical reactions will occur since the necessary elements will never come together to support life. If you look at this another way, we and other organisms on this planet survives because water has a wide temperature range as a liquid, that is, from 0°C (32°F) to 100°C (212°F). If for some reason the Earth was moved out of the habitable zone to temperatures outside this range we will not survive very long simply because water does not exist in the liquid state outside of this range." http://melpor.hubpages.com/hub/Water-Is-Needed-For-Life-To-Exist-In-The-Universe

So if there was no sun, water would be a frozen chunk of ice.
If there was a sun and no atmosphere the ice would evaporate into Hydrogen and oxygen molecules in milliseconds. It has to be brought into existence under very controlled environments. Not exposed to the harsh conditions of space.

I could go on and on but you probably wouldn't even care to understand.

Because the earths livable atmosphere is sustained by the triple state of water. Without the sun, water freezes thus the atmosphere cannot be sustained in the blackness of space.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/earth/geophysics/earth4.htm

"Without the sun to start the process of evaporation, the water cycle wouldn't exist. We wouldn't have clouds, rain or weather. The water on the planet would be stagnant. It would also be solid, since without the sun to warm it, the Earth would be entirely frozen.

The sun powers the processes that control our climate and the content of our atmosphere. Without it, we wouldn't have oxygen or liquid water on our planet. We wouldn't have weather or seasons.

The stratosphere, the layer of atmosphere just above the one in which we live, contains a thin layer of ozone (O3). This layer wouldn't exist without the sun. Ozone is made of three atoms of oxygen. It's not a very stable molecule, but it takes a lot of power to create it. When UV light hits a molecule of oxygen (O2) of, it splits it into two atoms of oxygen (O). When one of these atoms comes into contact with a molecule of oxygen, they combine to make ozone. The process also works in reverse -- when UV light hits ozone, it splits it into a molecule of oxygen and an atom of oxygen.

Oxygen molecule + light = two atoms of oxygen. Oxygen atom + oxygen molecule = ozone molecule.

This process is called the ozone-oxygen cycle, and it converts UV light into heat, preventing it from reaching the surface of the Earth. Without the sun, the Earth wouldn't have an ozone layer."

So without the sun there is no atmosphere, without an atmosphere water doesn't exist in a liquid state. The sun was created on the fourth day of creation.

So here we have the quandary of the 'chicken or the egg'.

It takes faith to see that God created the chicken and the rooster first to create an egg.

Did God tell you in a dream or vision to warn me? You may be right, Jesus may have created light, water, and the earth on the first day of creation week. But it doesn't say so in the Bible.

That's why God keeps asking you, "where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth, and suspended the world upon nothing?"

It truly takes the Faith of the Lord to see from His perspective. We fall so short in our own puny understanding, but when the Spirit of Truth has come, there is very little that He would not reveal in His time.

Some very bold statements, there. But I do notice you never said when the atmosphere was created. But water was here before the first day. You disagree, but that's not what my Bible says. Follow the verses through.

Yes, that's what I see you doing here.

I think you are jumping to conclusions about him. If you didn't notice, MM substitutes and splices in different definitions for words and meanings that are ... well, not usual. So just because he uses the same words and phrases scientologists or others use, doesn't mean that he believes that way. You need to put in work to attempt to understand him before labeling him.

You mean with a telescope?

I think it's a wrong conclusion here which could be shown by answering, why doesn't the moon have an atmosphere. Do you know what a confounder is?

James, please answer my question. Thank you.

I'm not following this. First of all, how can something be moving faster than the speed of light? That would imply imaginary mass and time moving backwards, according to relativity. Secondly, how does it explain that we are seeing evidence of the death of a star in only thousands of years vs. the millions of years it should be?



That's fine. Just looking for something which makes sense.

This is circular reasoning. Come up with a theory, assume it is true, and if there is any evidence to the contrary, explain that away as not being possibly true because it contradicts the theory.

Another possibility is that the theory is wrong. If a theory is correct, it should be supportable by evidence. God provides us evidence for the things He wishes us to believe. Not overwhelming proof (which would do away with the need for faith, as well as being contrary to the concept of free well -- i.e. overwhelming proof would be), but enough evidence upon which to make an informed decision.

The theory of cosmological inflation includes the concept that there can be causality between points in space that would normally be too far from each other for causality to apply. The specific phenomenon I'm thinking of is the homogeneity of the universe in terms of the dispersion of matter. The explanation is that when the universe expanded during its inflation stage, it "expanded" the light along with it, taking it farther than it could have gone on its own.

Not that I buy all this, but it's how they explain it AFAIK. I hope I made sense.

How long did it take the angel Gabriel to travel from Heaven to Earth to speak to Daniel?

It obviously didn't take very long, which means Gabriel must have travelled much, much faster than the speed of light.

Does that, therefore, mean that Gabriel also travelled into the past?

That would mean that Gabriel came from the future, when he already knew that Daniel was going to need him. Which means he could have taken his time, knowing exactly when he needed to arrive. Which means he didn't need to exceed the speed of light. Which means he didn't go backward in time. Which means he went forward in time. Which means he had to go faster than light. Which means..... LOL

Anyway, on a more serious note, there are theories, such as wormholes, that allow spatial travel that exceeds the speed of light when taken as a whole, but does not exceed the speed of light locally. It works something like a shortcut through space-time. It's possible that angels can travel that way.

Or, since angels are spirits, perhaps they can have imaginary mass, allowing speeds beyond c.

James, this statement is the best commentary on the creation account I've seen so far. It's got the hallmarks of truth - Simple, brief and plausible:


On a different topic, your epitaph fits - Boanerges. I've naturally got that disposition myself. But, the Lord can mold us sons of Zebedee, siphon off the dross of human electricity and make us channels of the pure heavenly current. I've personally been inspired by a lot of your thoughts. It takes divine wisdom to know the difference between watering down the truth to make it more palatable and real courtesy. Please pray for me to that end. You're in my prayers brother. The parting words of a friend to me on his death bed were: "Let no man take your crown".

Enoch walked with God 7 generations after the fall. How? Did an angel pick him up and carry him to heaven every Sabbath? No way, the gate to heaven was still on earth until the flood. He came to the eastern gate that Adam had been escorted out of, and he could see heaven through the portal and hear God's voice. Heaven was right there.

What we know is what we see until truth is shown to be other wise.

My point? We are in a cosmic prison, sequestered from the un-fallen worlds. In our material perspective it looks as if it would be 1.5k light years to get to the horse head nebula beyond which we are sure the Holy City is, but Enoch could see the New Jerusalem from here as if just beyond the gate where the angel was posted. How? Our perception of time and space is subject to our fallen condition. Angels have their own dimension.

It takes two points on a map to triangulate distance and we are on one tiny planet, one perspective. How could we possibly believe we know what truth is relative to space?

Until 300 years after Christ the world was known to be flat by most people.

Up until Galileo in 1615 everyone believed the earth was the center of our solar system.

Up until 10 years ago the expansion of our universe was known absolutely to be slowing down since the big bang, now scientists are scrambling to figure out why the expansion is actually speeding up.

Now they claim they know there is "dark matter" that they can't see, but it has to be there because nothing else could explain the known scenario based off their previous models of understanding. They don't have faith in the unseen God who proves Himself to us daily, but they can have faith in an unseen, unproven hypothesis?

It sure will be a major shock to them when they see why the universe is speeding up its expansion.

I am praying for you now, thank you for praying for me too Brother and thank you. In Jesus' name amen.

Here are a few major hints to discover how our perspective to time is relative to our individual existence.

The thermodynamic arrow of time
Entropy (arrow of time)

The thermodynamic arrow of time is provided by the Second Law of Thermodynamics, which says that in an isolated system, entropy tends to increase with time. Entropy can be thought of as a measure of microscopic disorder; thus the Second Law implies that time is asymmetrical with respect to the amount of order in an isolated system: as a system advances through time, it will statistically become more disordered. This asymmetry can be used empirically to distinguish between future and past though measuring entropy does not accurately measure time. Also in an open system entropy can locally decrease with time: living systems decrease their entropy by expenditure of energy at the expense of environmental entropy increase.

British physicist Sir Alfred Brian Pippard wrote, "There is thus no justification for the view, often glibly repeated, that the Second Law of Thermodynamics is only statistically true, in the sense that microscopic violations repeatedly occur, but never violations of any serious magnitude. On the contrary, no evidence has ever been presented that the Second Law breaks down under any circumstances."[4] The Second Law is universal and seems to accurately describe the overall trend in real systems toward higher entropy.

This arrow of time seems to be related to all other arrows of time and arguably underlies some of them, with the exception of the weak arrow of time.

The cosmological arrow of time
See also: Entropy and Entropy (arrow of time)

The cosmological arrow of time points in the direction of the universe's expansion. It may be linked to the thermodynamic arrow, with the universe heading towards a heat death (Big Chill) as the amount of usable energy becomes negligible. Alternatively, it may be an artifact of our place in the universe's evolution (see the Anthropic bias), with this arrow reversing as gravity pulls everything back into a Big Crunch.

If this arrow of time is related to the other arrows of time, then the future is by definition the direction towards which the universe becomes bigger. Thus, the universe expands - rather than shrinks - by definition.

The thermodynamic arrow of time and the Second law of thermodynamics are thought to be a consequence of the initial conditions in the early universe. Therefore they ultimately result from the cosmological set-up.

Since creation!!!!!!!!!!

Heaven is no further away than it takes the redeemed to travel with Jesus from earth to heaven in seven days.

REDEEMED TAKE SEVEN DAYS TRAVELING TO HEAVEN.—We all entered the cloud together, and were seven days ascending to the sea of glass, when Jesus brought the crowns, and with His own right hand placed them on our heads. He gave us harps of gold and palms of victory. Here on the sea of glass the 144,000 stood in a perfect square. Some of them had very bright crowns, others not so bright. Some crowns appeared heavy with stars, while others had but few. All were perfectly satisfied with their crowns. And they were all clothed with a glorious white mantle from their shoulders to their feet. Angels were all about us as we marched over the sea of glass to the gate of the city. Jesus raised His mighty, glorious arm, laid hold of the pearly gate, swung it back on its glittering hinges, and said to us, “You have washed your robes in My blood, stood stiffly for My truth, enter in.” We all marched in and felt that we had a perfect right in the city.—LS 66, 67. {Hvn 47.2}
48

That journey takes seven days, but does it HAVE to take seven days to get there? Maybe Jesus takes seven days to get there for a specific purpose. Imagine the sights on the way. Would you enjoy a trip you had planned for millennium if you couldn't stop and show the sights to your companions? "No we can't stop we're on a schedule"

Imagine the trauma his children have just gone through. To those who have just been resurrected, from their perspective they have just awaken from their deaths. For those who are alive they have just undergone the worst persecution ever. I don't think Jesus is acting like an ambulance driver to get them to the new Jerusalem.

He is explaining things to those who don't know, He is preparing those who have never seen, for the glory they are about to enter.

It was only a "Sabbaths Day journey" (slow walk) from the top of Mt. Olives where Jesus ascended to heaven, to the Eastern Gate of Jerusalem.



To make the point, after His resurrection Jesus appeared before Mary, and when she bowed to the ground and tried to touch Him He said "I have not yet ascended to my Father" then He left and was back a few hours later and then they all could touch Him. And He was hungry. Jesus feeds us on that 7 day journey to heaven.

Thats a wonderful illustration James

How fast is the speed of thought?

In other words, what about thought transportation from earth to heaven, or vice-versa?

Imagine after Adam had been cast out of heaven, even in their sinful condition God allowed the antediluvian world to see the glory of Eden Through the Eastern Gate, which remained until the flood. The altars of Adam and the 'sons of God', Seth and his descendants, were there. The sons of Cain were as far away as they could get. Also imagine the fact that when a sacrifice was accepted, the fire of heaven consumed it. Just like Elijah's sacrifice, consumed by the righteous flames.

While desiring to enter the glory filled place which was right before the supplicant, you were transported in mind to the throne room of the Father to make supplication, mingled with the merits of the Lamb to come (then). This same imagery is what the Garden of Gethsemane experience is. But this time the Lamb is the one outside the eastern gate begging to come in. He accepted that punishment in Gethsemane, outside the eastern gate, then He could be killed and not before.

In this place, Gethsemane, the altar of His self sacrifice, we meet Him to have our souls searched, to be shown the pain we caused His innocent heart and to receive His mercy, His faith.

When we see from this light, receiving His faith, then it is that we are literally standing in the presence of the Father dressed in His priestly garments holding the golden censor which mixes the merits of Christs righteousness with our petitions and we are guaranteed success in prayer. Enter into the body of Christ, This is how to be transported right now into the throne room of grace which we are to boldly accomplish, at the speed of thought. This is the propitiation or transference of sins for grace. What an awesome exchange eh?

I suspect the redeemed are excited about seeing their heavenly Father. Stopping along the way, sightseeing, etc., would delay it. I know as a child, when it was our turn to visit dad, I cared nothing about the sights along the way. All I wanted was to arrive at dad's place as fast as possible.

The point is that it takes seven days, it only took Jesus minutes to get there. Whether it is because they are not yet prepared, or Jesus, now considered the everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6), has things He wants to show them, has not been revealed to me and this is just a healthy debate, OK?

John the Revelator also saw the "gate to Heaven" Through which he could commune with God...

"Patmos, a barren, rocky island in the Aegean Sea, had been chosen by the Roman government as a place of banishment for criminals; but to the servant of God this gloomy abode became the gate of heaven. Here, shut away from the busy scenes of life, and from the active labors of former years, he had the companionship of God and Christ and the heavenly angels, and from them he received instruction for the church for all future time. The events that would take place in the closing scenes of this earth’s history were outlined before him; and there he wrote out the visions he received from God. When his voice could no longer testify to the One whom he loved and served, the messages given him on that barren coast were to go forth as a lamp that burneth, declaring the sure purpose of the Lord concerning every nation on the earth. {AA 570.4}

Jacob also...

Jacob, after beholding the vision of the angels, exclaimed, “The Lord is in this place; and I knew it not.... This is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.” Genesis 28:16, 17. {CG 539.6}

This is how we can be here on earth and be in heaven at the speed of thought. This is the communication that the 144,000 has where they are seen on the heavenly mountain and go where ever the lamb goes while their bodies are still on earth.

"To the humble, believing soul, the house of God on earth is the gate of heaven. The song of praise, the prayer, the words spoken by Christ’s representatives, are God’s appointed agencies to prepare a people for the church above, for that loftier worship into which there can enter nothing that defileth. {CCh 249.1}

This is why it is so important to enter into prayer and the house of worship with extreme humbleness and sincerity of heart. Believing that we are truly entering into the Fathers presence through the merits of Christ .

"Let the members of every family bear in mind that they are closely allied to heaven. The Lord has a special interest in the families of His children here below. Angels offer the smoke of the fragrant incense for the praying saints. Then in every family let prayer ascend to heaven both in the morning and at the cool sunset hour, in our behalf presenting before God the Saviour’s merits. Morning and evening the heavenly universe take notice of every praying household.7 {CG 519.1}

And as the redeemed shall ascend to heaven, the gates of the city of God will swing back, and those who have kept the truth will enter in. A voice, richer than any music that ever fell on mortal ear, will be heard saying, “Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” Then the righteous will receive their reward. Their lives will run parallel with the life of Jehovah. They will cast their crowns at the Redeemer’s feet, touch the golden harps, and fill all heaven with rich music.—The Signs of the Times, April 15, 1889. {CS 350.2}

P.S. mountain man, would we be fasting on the journey to heaven that takes seven days? I'm sure He would have some bag lunches for us on our way there, 'no time to stop grandpas waiting'.

I am leaning towards the thought that it takes seven days for our minds to wrap around the idea that we are really going to heaven with the King to see His Father's glory. Along the way there are things to understand for those who have not heard of the Sabbath, and things us Sabbath keepers need to know before we get there.

Again this is just my conclusion based off the evidence.

I too am looking forward, with baited breath even, to meet the Father, but we do that at our resurrection because Jesus is the exact person of the Father in human form. He is the vale, that we may see the glory.

In the sanctuary when the Shekinah glory was there, the six inch thick woven vale was just thick enough to filter the light to a visible level so the image of God could be detected through it.

Jesus is THAT vale.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster_than_the_speed_of_light and more than I can comprehend

Universal expansion

The expansion of the universe causes distant galaxies to recede from us faster than the speed of light, if comoving distance and cosmological time are used to calculate the speeds of these galaxies. However, in general relativity, velocity is a local notion, so velocity calculated using comoving coordinates does not have any simple relation to velocity calculated locally[17] (see comoving distance for a discussion of different notions of 'velocity' in cosmology). Rules that apply to relative velocities in special relativity, such as the rule that relative velocities cannot increase past the speed of light, do not apply to relative velocities in comoving coordinates, which are often described in terms of the "expansion of space" between galaxies. This expansion rate is thought to have been at its peak during the inflationary epoch thought to have occurred in a tiny fraction of the second after the Big Bang (models suggest the period would have been from around 10−36 seconds after the Big Bang to around 10−33 seconds), when the universe may have rapidly expanded by a factor of around 1020 to 1030.[18]

And then there's neutrinos but there may be a question if the same principle would apply to whole galaxies. If the galaxies did expand faster than the speed of light and faster than billions of years, then say the "big bang" occurred only thousand of years ago after sin. Stars started "dying" immediately and reached the earth and it only appears to us that they have been traveling a long time.

But, I'm probably doing a poor job of supporting something I don't believe. I tend more to believe that stars dying isn't sin. What and why, I don't know. When it's said there are other "worlds" out there, it implies to me they are in our "reality", our universe, our time (whatever time means). Therefore, if sin was causing stars way far away to die, it could be a great hazard for the other worlds and taint them with sin. While it's true they are not unaffected by the great controversy, I would not expect them to experience the actual effects of sin such as a star dying nearby them.

Yes, that was what I was thinking.

Your on the right path Kland. Excellent.

Since the fall we do not see space from the perspective of angels, who are in tune with God the fathers clock, His perspective.

We are separated in quarantine.

The theory of relativity proves that our being is inherently selfish even by the natural forces, since time is relative to our individual perspectives.

The damage of the first sin has spread through our universe like a cancer. What we see today is not what was seen at the beginning of our universe 6,000 years ago. The constellations have marched across the heavens like on a chess board.

The process of advancement is progressing today, why is the expansion of our Universe speeding up instead of slowing down? To what end will the universe be allowed to expand?

Soon the light will shine in the dark places and all that was dark will be light.

If Moses spent 40 days and nights without eating or drinking where he received the Ten Commandments on Tablets of Stone, then I think we can easily go without eating or drinking on our way to Heaven, not to say that we will not be eating or drinking on our way there.

Luke 5:34 And Jesus said to them, “Can you make wedding guests fast while the bridegroom is with them?

When we are with Jesus after translation into our heavenly bodies there is no reason to fast any more. So why would He insist that we do?

When Jesus was resurrected He even ate broiled fish that same day.

What if He didn't? Have you ever seen small children be asked by their parents to eat before they can go to the park with their friends? They'd rather just play!

I have a feeling the saints will all feel a bit like kids again--and rather focus their attentions on something other than their stomachs during such exciting adventures.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Um, James and GC: Is there any reason to eat?

Sure. We eat to maintain life. I suppose, however, once we are given immortality, eating will have reduced importance.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Off topic? Sorry, I thought that was the topic you were talking about.

Yeah, the idea that everyone needs to keep the Sabbath before entering heaven make sense.

Yes Mountain Man! We are heading to a wedding FEAST!

The reason to eat is for sustenance, to live forever. It is not glutinous to be fed by God with Manna or the fruit of the tree of life. He will feed us the fruit that never parishes.

There is absolutely no reason to fast after we are in Jesus' presence.

But there is plenty of reasons Jesus would take seven days for us to reach heaven. Mainly to prepare us for heaven. Those who have never heard of the Sabbath will need to be taught before entering the gates. Many people died in the faith before the truth was re-discovered since the dark ages.

I know Mrs White never wrote that we need to keep a Sabbath on another planet before entering heaven, it was presented by a Spirit filled pastor teaching his congregation and attributed to Mrs White, but it seems correct to me.

It is perfectly on topic since we are men of God looking for answers, nothing is off topic here. God bless you.

Or maybe Jesus is preparing men to have their first Sabbath in heaven in the New Jerusalem which would be very climactic. Cool, I like that thought even more.

That was a thought I had always had alternating with a possibility of on the way for some reason.

Very good, it is so exciting to be a part of this end time pursuit of Christs righteousness and His truth.

We are going to see very powerful events brothers. WE ARE THE LAST GENERATIONS.

What do you mean by "we are the last generations"? How much time does that involve?

How long would an 84 year old man have left to live? The seventh King (Benedict 16) is already 84 years old. Satan comes at the end of his office.

We are being judged right now and the end of probation is coming fast and when Satan reveals himself as an angel of light the later rain falls immediately after. The confessed church is judged by then and the foolish will be left naked.

We are the last generations to live on this planet until it will be made new. There are still people alive who remember when the healing of the head wound began, all of this could have ended since that time.

We are the last generations.

Jesus said, "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Does this apply to your message? If so, how many people around the world have been informed?

The message that I am inspired is the same message that is in the Spirit of Prophecy. The gospel message has already been given to the world in the same light that our founders received it, but most of the American SDA church has gone astray in their beliefs. So many unsound doctrines have infiltrated our church and this dilution of the power of the truth has led our leaders to fall asleep at the wheel, teaching "everything remains the same" but it is not.

The message that God has given our church through men in the same Spirit as me will take the church back to its primitive understanding, pointing to the foundation of our faith, showing that the foundation should be still as it was in 31 AD or 1844. But now the coming of the Lord is truly eminent.

What I know I am witnessing is the refining of our faith in Jesus. No one will ever be called out of the church again. The SDA church is THE end time church that has the privilege of proclaiming the truth in power and strength. This message will draw men back to the foundation in our church, and when the prophecies come true, it will strengthen our faith and determination to proclaim it.

Jesus always works in the same pattern throughout history. Just as the Christians did for the Jews, we are to proclaim the refining of our faith to the church first, then the world. When the later rain falls and the 144,000 are proclaiming the loud cry, then the rest of the church will be sadly lost, but the 144,000 will lead a vast multitude out of error from the fallen churches.

Zechariah 13:8 In the whole land,” declares the LORD, “two-thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one-third will be left in it.

"The message that I am inspired is the same message that is in the Spirit of Prophecy." Is this a typo? Or, did you mean to say "I am inspired"?

"The gospel message has already been given to the world in the same light that our founders received it". What is your source? As I travel, I meet people who have never heard of SDAs, people who know nothing about the 3AMs. What do you make of it?

". . . most of the American SDA church has gone astray in their beliefs. So many unsound doctrines have infiltrated our church". In what sense do you mean? Are you referring to the official 28 fundamental beliefs?

". . . the foundation of our faith . . . should be still as it was in 31 AD or 1844." What do you mean by 1844? As you know, many of our beliefs were discovered after 1844.

"The SDA church is THE end time church". Amen!

"This message will draw men back to the foundation in our church, and when the prophecies come true, it will strengthen our faith and determination to proclaim it." What is the foundation? What message are you referring to? How many people around the world are currently aware of it? And, how many people believe it?

When the Holy Spirit was poured out on the day of Pentecost it was the same spirit that led to the 1844 message. The foundation of our faith is the unsealing of the Books of Daniel and Revelation and is the experience of the founders in how God revealed the special testimonies to His church. It is the path that our denomination has followed, and since very few people teach the peculiar experience of our great disappointment of 1844 they are dismantling the foundation of our experience.

The doctrines within our church that people have forsaken are these fundamental beliefs, the pillars of our faith. (I recently heard a pastor say that everyone on earth will be saved because Jesus died for even the wicked, and this was at an SDA camp meeting of 2000 people and NO ONE objected but me)

"Our faith in reference to the messages of the first, second, and third angels was correct. The great way-marks we have passed are immovable. Although the hosts of hell may try to tear them from their foundation, and triumph in the thought that they have succeeded, yet they do not succeed. These pillars of truth stand firm as the eternal hills, unmoved by all the efforts of men combined with those of Satan and his host. We can learn much, and should be constantly searching the Scriptures to see if these things are so. God’s people are now to have their eyes fixed on the heavenly sanctuary, where the final ministration of our great High Priest in the work of the judgment is going forward,—where He is interceding for His people.” The Review and Herald, November 27, 1883. {LS 278.2}


Beyond that foundation, The 28 fundamental beliefs are as God wants them.

The experience that I have had led me to fully accept what our church has experienced. In this faith that God gave me I have seen with my own eyes what the Spirit of God had taught Mrs. White and the 120 in the upper room. I am experiencing the effect of embracing these wonderful truths and I do not dispute His testimony.

James, please answer the rest of my questions. Thank you.

If I missed the intent of your question does it not seem prudent to restate the said question in a way that you will get the answer you seek?

Oh, I see. Thank you. I'll reread your post.