Doctrine of total inability/total depravity or do we have a free will.

The doctrine of total depravity (or total inability) says that all men, as a consequence of the Fall, are born morally corrupt, enslaved to sin, at enmity with God, and unable to please Him or even of themselves to turn to Christ for salvation. Thus God must elect us to salvation, basically we are predesntined to be saved or lost before we are born and thus have no true free will. This has always bothered me and I have always taken Calvinism with a grain of salt or have this feeling that Calvin never got a complete picture but it had to wait till Arminius came and drew a fuller picture of the cause of the wretchedness of sinners as taught in Scripture. Arminius writes:

'In the state of Primitive Innocence, man had a mind endued with a clear understanding of heavenly light and truth concerning God, and his works and will, as far as was sufficient for the salvation of man and the glory of God; he had a heart imbued with "righteousness and true holiness," and with a true and saving love of good; and powers abundantly qualified or furnished perfectly to fulfill the law which God had imposed on him. This admits easily of proof from the description of the image of God, after which man is said to have been created (Gen. 1:26-27), from the law divinely imposed on him, which had a promise and a threat appended to it (Gen 2:17), and lastly from the analogous restoration of the same image in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 4:24; Col. 3:10).
But man was not so confirmed in this state of innocence as to be incapable of being moved by the representation presented to him of some good (whether it was of an inferior kind and relating to this [natural] life, or of a superior kind and relating to spiritual life), inordinately and unlawfully to look upon it and to desire it, and of his own spontaneous as well as free motion, and through a preposterous desire for that good, to decline from the obedience which had been prescribed to him. Nay, having turned away from the light of his own mind and his Chief Good, which is God, or, at least, having turned towards that Chief Good not in the manner in which he ought to have done, and besides having turned in mind and heart towards an inferior good, he transgressed the command given to him for life. By this foul deed, he precipitated himself from that noble and elevated condition into a state of the deepest infelicity, which is under the Dominion of Sin. . . .

In this state, the Free Will of man towards the True Good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost: And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace.'Twenty-Five Public Disputations: Disputation XI. On the Free Will of Man and its Powers," in The Works of Arminius, trans. James Nichols (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1986), 2:191-92.

Both Arminius and Calvin believed in the total depravity of all human beings as maintained in Scripture. And both Arminius and Calvin believed in the total inability of all human beings to do anything towards salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone, apart from the work of the Holy Spirit. The major difference between the two concerning their doctrine of depravity is in the solution of God in overcoming the effects of the fall. For Calvin, an unconditionally elect person must first be infused with faith in Christ Jesus in order to be justified and regenerated.

For Arminius, a person must be graced by the Spirit of God in the overcoming of the depraved nature so that the person may be freed to believe in Christ Jesus. If such is accomplished and not resisted, then the person is justified and regenerated. But sinners must be enabled by the Spirit of God because they are totally and utterly depraved, captured and enslaved by sin, and completely undone.

Adventist believe that man is depraved as scripture teachers that. All adults are sinners and are spiritually separated from God. All of mankind has sinned and come short of God's glory.

Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savor; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth ; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners …

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins

Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable ; there is none that doeth good, no, not one .

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God ;

However, by Total Depravity Calvinism concludes that man's will becomes corrupted and thus non-functional and that man's will exists but it does not work so that we can choose God.

Calvin in my opinion went too far and basically drew a picture of man with no free will, all his abilities for good taken from him to the point that man just sits and waits for his execution or salvation with no input. Concerning the sinful state in which humanity exists, Calvin writes:

'Therefore, since through man's fault a curse has extended above and below, over all the regions of the world, there is nothing unreasonable in it extending to all his offspring. After the heavenly image in man was effaced, he not only was himself punished by a withdrawal of the ornaments in which he had been arrayed, i.e., wisdom, virtue, justice, truth, and holiness, and by the substitution in their place of those dire pests, blindness, impotence, vanity, impurity, and unrighteousness, but he involved his posterity also, and plunged them in the same wretchedness.'

It just strikes me as wrong, as man from the beginning had free will that was the whole reason man was able to sin. If anything it was not God that takes it away but Satan as evil plunges man into its grip and takes away his free will. What are your thoughts.

This is an interesting study of Arminius and Calvin. Will you give us a comparison with Luther and Erasmus as well?

Jesus said that those who sin are slaves to sin. Slaves have no choice. They must obey sin.

Thus, the conclusion that Satan takes away free choice is exactly right.

The only choice we get is to either continue with sin or else ask God to free us from the sin, which sets us free. Once he frees us, then we have true free will. Unfortunately, most of us don't use it very well! Like dogs going back to their barf, we have a tendency to return to the sin again. So, forgiveness is in place so that we may once again be restored to the free will condition.

The underline is not true Wendell. Scriptures says we are either slaves to sin or slaves to Christ. There is no freewill in either camp.

There is true freedom in Christ's camp but no freewill. There's a sharp distinction between freewill and freedom.

If what you said is true, then we would have no choice but to always obey Christ once he frees us just as the sinner has no choice but to sin. We all know that is not true. Once you start sinning, you cannot stop it. However, once Christi frees us, you can still choose to sin at any point. That has always been true and always will be true. Hence, what I said remains true.

Only the Father's has Freewill
Just because the man of sin (in the converted or non-converted man) can sin does not prove he has freewill. It only proves that some of the Law(will) of the Lord is still not written in his heart.

There is only one Freewill and it is the will of the Father. He institute laws(will) and coerce us to follow them. If we do not, He corrects us like a loving Father, until all His laws(wills) are written in our heart. This is the plan of salvation.

Just because the man of sin thinks he has freewill and think he can do whatever he thinks he can do, doesn't prove it is so, nor does it prove he has free will. It does prove that "the Lord is slow to anger" and He saw fit that we would learn righteousness via seeing the fruits of our foolishness and through His judgments when the appointed times comes.

The Bible is clear the man of sin is SLAVE to Sin(has no freewill). And the new man is slave to Christ(has no freewill). There's no middle ground where man can exercise his freewill in either camps.

Conversion is not a product of exercising Freewill
Even the conversion of a man is not done via the man's freewill, but by the working of the Lord whenever He choose it.

The Good Teacher gives us limited Choices
When events happens, the Lord gives maybe two or three choices, but these are controlled by His working behind the scenes to bring us in front of this event to teach us His laws(will).

The Lord is continually teaching us. The good teacher plans the lessons and will give choices to his student facing the problem. If he chooses the wrong answer, then the teacher repeats the lessons until it is well understood. So amid these limited choices there is still no freewill. This is how the Lord works with all his children and will write all His Laws(will) in everyones heart as He purposed it.

_|_, if I remember right, seems like somewhere else you were addressing the topic that we were all predestined or something to that effect?

Elle The argument you just presented is called 'Hard Determinism' and is exactly the argument Satan used against God to get one third of all heavenly angels to fall, then he used it against Eve in the Garden!

We do not have creative abilities like God, and yes there are limitations on the abilities the Father has created us with, but this does not mean we do not have free will. We have the right given by God to accept his word or not, and this is free will.

Any other argument in theology that claims we do not have free will is based off the argument that God will not allow men to pass certain boundaries, and they say this implies a limitation on free will. That argument is aimed at discrediting God and if you truly believe that Elle, I truly believe you are being possessed by demons.

If through our free will we accept His word, then He opens the door to have access to His power through prayer and use it for His glory and our peace, this is only exercised by free will.

There were even sacrifices called "freewill offerings" where men would bring a sacrifice to God of their own volition. Are you going to tell me God got it wrong when He called it that?

I truly think you are being motivated by Satan to try to bring discord into the church.

John 15:7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you."

He gives us the choice and says "IF you abide in me ask what YOU want and it will be given to you".

The reason for limitations on the choices we can make is because of our fallen condition. If you love your children do you give them free access to things that would destroy them without first warning them of the dangers?

John 7:17
"If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own."

"...Choose today whom you will serve" ...Joshua 24:15

Not a bad thought..

On the one hand, it's true, after Adam's sin, mankind lost his freewill. There was only one door for him and that was sin and death.

There was absolutely nothing a person could do to awaken their spiritual nature.

BUT

and there is a big BUT

Right there in the Garden of Eden God predetermined that mankind would not be left in that state.

"I will put enmity between .... Gen. 3:16

Right there in the garden of Eden God placed something into the conscience of mankind --
-- enmity against satan
-- a longing for God.

Through these the Holy spirit works on EVERY heart to direct them toward Christ.

At the final judgment no one will say --
"God, I'm lost because YOU DIDN'T draw me, you decided i wasn't worth your grace."

At the final judgment everyone will see that God poured out heaven to save all who would respond. His grace is sufficient for all. God is no respector of persons but longs for all to come to Him in repentance.

Rev. 22:17 "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

Here is a Adventist take on this doctrine..

"Original Sin and the Use of Force
Saint Augustine of Hippo (A.D. 354-430) is usually credited by historians and theologians as the architect of the doctrine called original sin—the theory that, because of Adam’s sin, every human being is a condemned sinner at birth. Before Augustine, Christians generally believed that while physical corruption was inherited by all human beings from Adam, guilt was acquired only by the individual’s choice to sin.1

Augustine’s doctrine, by contrast, maintained that guilt as well as weakness was every person’s birthright.

Such a concept soon led to the belief that if babies died before baptism, without the chance to have original sin cleansed from their souls, they would go to hell.2 It also established the premise that because of man’s incurable depravity, force could rightly be used against heretics and sinners....

Despite their rejection of many Catholic teachings, the magisterial Protestant Reformers, especially John Calvin, adhered strongly to Augustine’s view of human nature.4 Thus Calvin, like Augustine and medieval Catholicism, believed in the church’s dominance of civil government and the use of force against dissenters. Calvin’s consent to the burning of Michael Servetus in Geneva, an act praised by Catholics as well as Protestants, offers evidence in this regard.5

Predestination
For both Calvin and Augustine, the doctrine of involuntary sin made necessary a doctrine of involuntary salvation. Thus the theory of predestination was born. Certain ones would be predestined to be saved, while the others are predestined to be damned. Such a concept removes salvation entirely from the practical experience of humanity, since that experience is presumably—and inevitably, even for the converted Christian—tainted by original sin. In Calvin’s words: “Until we slough off this mortal body, there remains always in us much imperfection and infirmity, so that we always remain poor and wretched sinners in the presence of God. And, however much we ought day by day to increase and grow in God’s righteousness, there will never be plentitude or perfection while we live here.”6

The salvation of men and women is therefore not, according to this theology, a freedom from sin accomplished in this present life, but only a promise of such freedom and eternal bliss in the life to come.

Not all Protestants, of course, accepted the theology of Augustine and the magisterial Reformers. Those of the Arminian-Anabaptist tradition took a very different view of sin, guilt, and the use of force. Rejecting original sin, these groups insisted on adult baptism, and from them arose in time the Wesleyan movement in England, with its stress on victory over sin in this present life. Commenting on this branch of Protestantism, the historian Will Durant writes: “There is no clear filiation between the Continental Anabaptists and the English Quakers and the American Baptists; but the Quaker rejection of war and oaths, and the Baptist insistence on adult baptism probably stem from the same traditions of creed and conduct that in Switzerland, Germany, and Holland took Anabaptist forms. One quality nearly all these groups had in common—their willingness to bear peaceably with faiths other than their own.” http://libertymagazine.org/article/free-will-predestination-and-religious-liberty

Thanks for reviving this thread. Good topic. I thought that those in the Calvanist branch of Protestantism actually have a fairly good record for toleration. Maybe not as good as I thought?

I will admit straight up that I am not that well versed in Calvinism vs Arminianism. It would seem to me that the "Truth" would lie somewhere in the middle of those positions.

But I do have a question about Calvin's T.U.L.I.P. Actually several, but initially I would like to know what is meant by "total depravity." Does this mean that humans have absolutely no inclinations to good, or mercy, or compassion, or whatever? I'm not sure I could agree with that.

The following quote boggles the mind, "the Free Will of man towards the True Good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost: And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace". It sounds like the thesis abstract of a student of theology attempting to sound pedantic in order to impress his professors.

• No one can conceive of what he does not know -- so that we, cut off from the Garden of Eden since Adam, completely lost all revelation of God. This has nothing to do with free will or the lack thereof. A child of the Amazon, playing happily among the trees, has NO inkling of or desire for a Maritime SDA account. To urge upon him the utility of one would be like offering a roach for dinner to a wealthy man. It makes no sense in either case and may even be viewed as repulsive!
   
• It therefore takes someone who knows God to re-introduce Him in a way that is meaningful and appropriate. And even so, some of us are like that child in the forest, content with whatever we have and inclined to reject outright any offer of a scholarship at a US school, for example. But some, given to adventure, curiosity and wonder, would leap at the opportunity.
  
  This has nothing to do with free will or the lack thereof; but rather with the nature of each individual (distinct and apart from any second or third party), being presented with the same offer and the freedom to choose, determining their own course of action.
   
• It is written, "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Rom. 10:17. You needed someone to teach you, to show you because you simply did not know. Darkness vs Light. Ignorance vs. Knowledge. NOT about free will which you have and always had and will.

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Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. His eternal sacrifice bought us a second chance at eternal life. We are free to embrace Jesus as our Savior, free to resist our fallen inclinations, and free to imitate Jesus' lovely traits of character. Rebirth does not eliminate the voice of our fallen flesh nature. It continues to tempt us from within to live life in violation of God's will. But our natural, instinctive, inborn depravity does not make us guilty so long as we abide in Jesus and refuse to cherish or act out (in thought, words, or deeds) its unholy clamorings.

If you're able to watch this Mike (and anyone else) I'd like to hear your thoughts. This is yesterday evening's message by Steve Wohlberg on how the condition of Laodicea applies to all of us. He says we're all wretched, miserable, poor, blind etc.

Charity, thank you for the link. Appreciated there message. Yes, we are messed up from the core up. Thank you, Jesus, for saving us and for empowering us to possess the gold, white raiment, and eye salve. The 144,000 are Laodiceans. They will be translated alive when Jesus returns. More notably, however, believers who possess the Laodicean gifts are winsome and lovable and effective at winning others to Jesus.

It basically takes away the Judgement by God, and places it mans hands, that is why it allowed for the burning at the stake and the deaths by persecution such as the Inquisition.

Well said. The HEALTHY, STRONG AND EXTREMELY FREE WILL granted to humanity is exemplified by both the good and evil men have demonstrated, unencumbered, throughout history even in the name of God.

Consider the words of the three Jews in Babylon of whom Nebuchadnezzar demanded idolatry, "our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and He will deliver us from your hand, O king. But if not, let it be known to you, O king, that we do not serve your gods, nor will we worship the gold image which you have set up." God gave Nebuchadnezzar the free will to BOTH cast them into the fiery furnace AND (after He, God, walked with them in the fire and they had come out unhurt) to elevate them into positions of importance in Babylon. And God gave them the free will to EITHER bow before the image OR not.

The Bible does not support the doctrine of puppet theology. Your will is not broken or damaged or in any way diminished, hence the judgment of God is righteous and no one can accuse Him of selfish manipulation of human beings. "Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world?" Rom. 3:5-6

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We are not free to live in harmony with God's will without also depending on God to enable us to experience rebirth, to abide in Jesus, to walk in the Spirit, to walk in the mind of the new man, to partake of the divine nature - all of which empowers us to use our sanctified powers of mind and body to labor, agonize, wrestle, strive to recognize and resist sin, self, and Satan and to trust and love and obey God joyfully. The instant we neglect or reject Jesus - we are powerless to live in harmony with God's will. The gift of repentance gives God the legal right to pardon us and to resume empowering us to live in harmony with His will, to pick up where we left off trusting, loving, obeying Him. This arrangement, this dynamic does not make us puppets, instead, it makes us like a solar powered car that goes and goes in the light of God's love and glory. Just gotta choose moment by moment to stay plugged into Jesus.

You're right. Yours is not puppet theology but something more modern: ROBOT theology. And the biblical evidence for it is ...?

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So James, it seems you have a name for everyone else's theology. What do you call yours?

James, why do you label the thoughts shared in my post - Robot? We are born slaves, servants of sin, self, and Satan and are, as such, incapable of reproducing Jesus' lovely traits of character. We can choose to experience rebirth and then choose to cooperate with Jesus to live in harmony with God's will but only while we are actively, aggressively abiding in Jesus, walking in the Spirit and in the mind of new man, partaking of the divine nature. Without Jesus we cannot not sin. All we can do apart from Jesus is sin. "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin" (no matter how righteous it appears on the surface).

While they had free will in relation to God, but with Nebuchadnezzar threatening to burn them, would you say they had "free will" in relation to Nebuchadnezzar?

Romans 2
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

True, under certain circumstances there are times when people who are ignorant of God, His Law, and the Plan of Salvation they are able to make choices that are in harmony with God's will.