Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining

Posted By: Bobryan

Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 02/24/15 02:16 AM


Some times it is easy for some Christians groups affirm the TEN Commandments in general without realizing that the 4th commandment is one of them. But not so with D.L. Moody.

====================================

one pro-sunday scholar puts it this way when it comes to the 4th commandment.

D.L. Moody notices that some are opposed to the Sabbath Commandment - but notice how this sermon on the TEN Commandments also fits the summary of 7 points listed here on page 1??


BY THE
DWIGHT L. MOODY
The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17
.
The Fourth Commandment
Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.

THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes;

====================================================

Thoughts?
Posted By: Bobryan

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 02/24/15 02:26 AM

New Covenant “With the house of Israel” – and so for ALL the saints. Just as command not to worship false gods in Ex 20 – given to Israel freed slaves from Egypt – and also for all mankind.

Jer 31:
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Heb 8
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Ex 20
And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Posted By: JAK

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 02/24/15 03:12 AM

So...Just what is the statement under discussion?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 02/24/15 04:14 AM

Yes, all ten commandments remain. Not one has been changed or eliminated. The transition from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant did not abolish the ten commandments. Instead, it explains how to live in harmony with them.
Posted By: JAK

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 02/24/15 04:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Yes, all ten commandments remain. Not one has been changed or eliminated. The transition from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant did not abolish the ten commandments. Instead, it explains how to live in harmony with them.
Curious comment, given our discussion regarding Old Covenant/New Covenant.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 02/24/15 06:06 PM

Did I say something different about the covenant's?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 02/24/15 06:06 PM

I'm waiting for the irrefutable evidence.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 02/24/15 06:32 PM

The ten commandments outline sin.

Romans 7:7 I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Romans 3:3 by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Jesus magnified the law, He did not abolish it.

Isaiah 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

Humans tend to diminish God's law, but Jesus magnified it.
We see this in Matt. 5.
Thou shalt not kill; isn't JUST the actual act, Jesus magnifying glass shows that command includes the attitude in the heart -- hate is already transgressing that law.
Thou shalt not commit adultery, is shown to include the impure fantasies of the mind.

The new covenant does not do away with the law, it contains God's promises of forgiveness for sins confessed and repented of, and that the law will be engraved upon our hearts and minds that we will walk in God's will and His love will be in our hearts.

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Ez 11:20 and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
11:20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

10:26 But if we continue in sin after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.



Christ did not do away with that which defines sin.
He came to bring salvation FROM sin.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 02/24/15 06:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Bobryan

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes;

====================================================

Thoughts?

Indeed, when the Seventh-day Adventist Church gives up the 7th day Sabbath, it has lost all it's reason for being. It has lost the three angel's message which is the last warning for the world.

Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: (sanctuary message) and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. (Sabbath message)

14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen (don't look to other churches as your example, they have rejected God's commandments)

14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,

14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: (God's people) here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (They walk with Christ and have His faith, and keep God's commandments)
Posted By: dedication

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 02/24/15 07:35 PM

Dwight Moody was a Sunday keeper. During the Puritan era, Sunday was called the Sabbath and given all the support the Bible gives to the 7th day.
Moody's sermons on the commandments are good. I don't know what his exposure to the Sabbath truth was or how he responded to that.

When the Seventh-day Adventist church became a voice in the Christian world, the challenge as to God's true Sabbath became very pronounced. While this was already evident in earlier years (there were Seventh-day Baptists) yet Adventist were unique in seeing the Sabbath message (God's Sabbath) in the three angels' message which gave it an importance not seen before.

Rather than accepting God's true Sabbath the churches have resorted to doing away with God's law -- yet they don't really believe this themselves,(as we see in their desire to post those commandments in public places, and have "commandment day" etc. ) but since those commandments include Saturday as the Sabbath, they will have the whole nailed to the cross, as their excuse to transgress the fourth.

The time is coming, however, and is now already being pushed, when the Sabbath commandment will be invoked to enforce Sunday as "vital for the whole country".
If you have read Pope John Paul II's Sunday encyclical you will know he has dressed up Sunday in all the Biblical Sabbath clothes.
Posted By: Bobryan

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 02/25/15 06:38 AM

Originally Posted By: JAK
So...Just what is the statement under discussion?


Irrefutable evidence of 7 statements that start getting fleshed out in the first two posts --

These statements are an example of claims made by the majority of pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!.


Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.[/quote]
Posted By: Bobryan

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 02/25/15 06:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I'm waiting for the irrefutable evidence.


The quote from D.L. Moody is an example representing the founder of the "Moody Bible Institute" - a pro-sunday source affirming the continued authority of the Sabbath Commandment and demonstrating all 7 points of my "7 point list" -- claimed by such pro-sunday groups.

Here is another quote also demonstrating 6 of those 7 points for the Westminster Confession of Faith.

"Westminster Confession of Faith"
Chapter XIX
Of the Law of God
I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.[1]

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in Ten Commandments, and written in two tables:[2] the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.[3]

III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits;[4] and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties.[5] All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.[6]

IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.[7]

V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof;[8] and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it.[9] Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.[10]

VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned;[11] yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly;[12] discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives;[13] so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin,[14] together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience.[15] It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin:[16] and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law.[17] The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof:[18] although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works.[19] So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.[20]

VII. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it;[21] the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.[22]

Section 21 of the Westminster and Section 22 of the Baptist both address point 7 "the change" the edit of the Sabbath commandment from the 7th day starting from creation and all through the OT and NT Gospel until the cross where it is "changed" in their mind -- to point to week-day-1.[/quote]
Posted By: JAK

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 02/25/15 06:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Bobryan
demonstrating all 7 points of my "7 point list"
So is this list your belief, or Moody's? This was not clear. dunno
Posted By: JAK

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 02/25/15 06:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Did I say something different about the covenant's?
Um...No, you said nothing at all about the covenants. You could not explain the difference...
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 02/25/15 06:52 PM

Bobryan, it is interesting to learn their reasons for believing the moral law is still binding.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 02/25/15 06:56 PM

Originally Posted By: JAK
M: Did I say something different about the covenant's?

J: Um...No, you said nothing at all about the covenants. You could not explain the difference...

You didn't agree with my explanation. I posted a Bible study by Joe Crews. It also explained it very nicely.
Posted By: Bobryan

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 02/25/15 07:06 PM

Originally Posted By: JAK
Originally Posted By: Bobryan
demonstrating all 7 points of my "7 point list"
So is this list your belief, or Moody's? This was not clear. dunno


In my 7 point list - I state that I agree with 6 of the 7 points.

And of course a great majority of pro-sunday scholars will promote all 7 of those points not just 6 of them. I think the 7th point is in error.
Posted By: Bobryan

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 02/25/15 07:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Bobryan, it is interesting to learn their reasons for believing the moral law is still binding.


Indeed they quote from Gen 2:1-3 so also does the "Baptist Confession of Faith".

And they separate out the Moral, Civil and Ceremonial laws - placing the Ten Commandments in the "moral law" binding on all mankind from Eden to this very day - including the saints.

The interesting thing is that often SDAs are fighting that very same battle on those very same points - with non-SDA's who are in fact in opposition against all 7 points. As if it is just an issue between them and SDAs.
Posted By: JAK

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 02/25/15 07:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
You didn't agree with my explanation. I posted a Bible study by Joe Crews. It also explained it very nicely.

True, I didn't (with certain caveats).
But, the problem is, I didn't ask Joe Crews for his explanation, I asked you for yours.
I can go to multiple websites, all explaining the covenants, none of which agree with each other.
Posted By: Bobryan

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 02/25/15 09:11 PM

Jer 31:31-33 says that the New Covenant includes the Law of God written on the heart and mind- just as we find in Hebrews 8.

Gal 1:6-9 says that there has always been -- only 1 Gospel no matter if you are in OT or NT.

The New Covenant is that "1" Gospel in the form of Covenant.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 02/26/15 03:31 AM

Originally Posted By: JAK
M: You didn't agree with my explanation. I posted a Bible study by Joe Crews. It also explained it very nicely.

J: True, I didn't (with certain caveats). But, the problem is, I didn't ask Joe Crews for his explanation, I asked you for yours.

I said "also".
Posted By: Bobryan

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 02/27/15 07:34 AM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Dwight Moody was a Sunday keeper. During the Puritan era, Sunday was called the Sabbath and given all the support the Bible gives to the 7th day.
Moody's sermons on the commandments are good. I don't know what his exposure to the Sabbath truth was or how he responded to that.

When the Seventh-day Adventist church became a voice in the Christian world, the challenge as to God's true Sabbath became very pronounced. While this was already evident in earlier years (there were Seventh-day Baptists) yet Adventist were unique in seeing the Sabbath message (God's Sabbath) in the three angels' message which gave it an importance not seen before.

Rather than accepting God's true Sabbath the churches have resorted to doing away with God's law -- yet they don't really believe this themselves,(as we see in their desire to post those commandments in public places, and have "commandment day" etc. ) but since those commandments include Saturday as the Sabbath, they will have the whole nailed to the cross, as their excuse to transgress the fourth.

The time is coming, however, and is now already being pushed, when the Sabbath commandment will be invoked to enforce Sunday as "vital for the whole country".
If you have read Pope John Paul II's Sunday encyclical you will know he has dressed up Sunday in all the Biblical Sabbath clothes.


That is true - and that is why I would prefer to have that discussion earlier than later.

But in a great majority of the cases we spend our time with non-SDAs defending the first 6 points in that 7 point list. Points that even the majority of pro-sunday Scholars do not object to - and that is sort of odd because they are opposing the subject on the very points where the majority of their own pro-sunday scholarship says they are not in harmony with the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob
Posted By: Bobryan

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 02/27/15 07:35 AM

I have posted the Westminster Confession of Faith, and D.L. Moody on this subject - but I can also post the "Baptist Confession of Faith" -- Catholic sources and many other evangelical and protestant sources - all affirming that 7 point list. -- for those interested.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 02/27/15 03:20 PM

I am interested.

Post it all here with links to the source, as the link to the source adds to the validity of the quotes, etc.
Posted By: kland

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 02/27/15 06:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: JAK
M: You didn't agree with my explanation. I posted a Bible study by Joe Crews. It also explained it very nicely.

J: True, I didn't (with certain caveats). But, the problem is, I didn't ask Joe Crews for his explanation, I asked you for yours.

I said "also".
Actually you said, "It also explained it very nicely". Which means that you also explained it very nicely. That is what he is wanting to know, where did you also explain it very nicely?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 02/27/15 06:32 PM

Kland, ask JAK. I explained my view very nicely. I was thorough. He agreed with some of it - just not all of it. He can tell you.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 02/27/15 06:38 PM

Originally Posted By: BobRyan
1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

Who wrote this list? Did you write it? Is it a paraphrase?
Posted By: Bobryan

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/01/15 06:02 AM

It (the 7 point list) is my list -- it is original with me.

The list notes that I agree with 6 of the 7 points affirmed by the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship --- and I strongly object to the 7th point that summaries their position.

===============================

These statements are an example of claims made by the majority of pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!.


Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.
Posted By: Bobryan

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/01/15 06:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Daryl
I am interested.

Post it all here with links to the source, as the link to the source adds to the validity of the quotes, etc.


So glad to have someone interested in the text and the sources -

Baptist Confession of Faith --- first


The Baptist Confession of Faith - section 19 almost identical to the Westminster section 19 quoted above.

Notice how they both fit that 7 point summary already posted on page 1?



Unrevised from 1689

Links that remain as of today
http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc01.html
http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc19.html


As revised by Spurgeon 1855

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/bcof.htm
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/bcof.htm#part19


Section 19:

C.H. Spurgeon's edition of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" -- CH Spurgeon



“The Perpetuity of the Law of God”

Very great mistakes have been made about the law. Not long ago there were those about us who affirmed that the law is utterly abrogated and abolished, and they openly taught that believers were not bound to make the moral law the rule of their lives. What would have been sin in other men they counted to be no sin in themselves. From such Antinomianism as that may God deliver us. We are not under the law as the method of salvation, but we delight to see the law in the hand of Christ, and desire to obey the Lord in all things. Others have been met with who have taught that Jesus mitigated and softened down the law, and they have in effect said that the perfect law of God was too hard for imperfect beings, and therefore God has given us a milder and easier rule. These tread dangerously upon the verge of terrible error, although we believe that they are little aware of it.

Section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" .

Section 19
. The Law of God
• God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

• The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

• Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

• To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it __________________[/
Posted By: Bobryan

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/01/15 06:10 AM

D. L. Moody


THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody
http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html
Fundamental Baptist Institute
http://www.fbinstitute.com/
http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html
presents

Originally Posted By: BobRyan
- D.L. Moody notices that some are opposed to the Sabbath Commandment - but notice how this sermon on the TEN Commandments also fits the summary of 7 points listed here



http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html

Fundamental Baptist Institute
http://www.fbinstitute.com/
http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html
presents

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS


BY THE
DWIGHT L. MOODY
The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17
.
The Fourth Commandment
Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.

THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes;

Posted By: Bobryan

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/01/15 06:14 AM

Since the embedded links seem to be getting removed by the text format of this board I am including the explicit link version here.

http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_wi...ofs/ch_XIX.html


Westminster Confession of Faith -

Here we have section 19 of the Westminster - and of course you already have a few posts of mine quoting the "Baptist Confession of Faith"

"Westminster Confession of Faith"
Chapter XIX Of the Law Of God

Chapter XIX
Of the Law of God
I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.[1]

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables:[2] the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.[3]

III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits;[4] and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties.[5] All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.[6]

IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.[7]

V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof;[8] and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it.[9] Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.[10]

VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned;[11] yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly;[12] discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives;[13] so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin,[14] together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience.[15] It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin:[16] and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law.[17] The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof:[18] although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works.[19] So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.[20]

VII. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it;[21] the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.[22]

Section 21 of the Westminster and Section 22 of the Baptist both address point 7 "the change" the edit of the Sabbath commandment from the 7th day starting from creation and all through the OT and NT Gospel until the cross where it is "changed" in their mind -- to point to week-day-1.[/quote]
Posted By: Bobryan

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/01/15 06:21 AM

Fair warning -

This material is very difficult to refute for those who oppose the full TEN Commandments -- so don't be too surprised if very creative "tactics" get used in an effort to try to sidestep the details of the point made in the 7 point list statement, if you try this on other boards.

Many more - similar examples of the 7 points available if needed.

in Christ,

Bob
Posted By: Bobryan

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/01/15 06:34 AM

Here is a 10 point list that I don't know the SDA source for - and it has been modified somewhat by me...

Quote:



"10 Reasons why the Sabbath is not just for Jews.

1) Adam and Eve were not Jewish. "God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it" (Genesis 2:3) before sin entered. "Sanctified" means "to be set apart for holy use." The only ones in the Garden of Eden for whom the Sabbath was “set apart” were Adam and Eve, who weren’t Jewish.

2) "The Sabbath was made for mankind not mankind made for the Sabbath." Mark 2:27. Jesus said this. It was "made" in the Garden of Eden before it was "written" down on Mount Sinai. The Sabbath was "made" for "man," not just Jews.

3) The other nine commandments are not "just for Jews." God wrote "Ten Commandments" on stone, not just nine (See Deut. 4:12, 13; Ex. 20). Does “Do not commit adultery,”“Do not murder,”“Do not steal,” and “Do not bear false witness” apply "only to Jews"? Eph 6:2 the 5th commandment is the “First Commandment with a promise” – only true of the unit of TEN. And this is applied to gentiles.

4) "The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God." Exodus 20:10. God calls the Sabbath, "my holy day." Isaiah 58:13. The Bible never calls it "the Sabbath of the Jews." It isn’t their Sabbath, but God's.

5) The Sabbath commandment is for the "stranger" too. The fourth commandment itself says the "stranger" is to rest on the Sabbath. Exodus 20:10.“Strangers” are non-Jews, or Gentiles. Thus the Sabbath applies to them too.

6) Isaiah 56 said Gentiles should keep the Sabbath. "Also the sons of the stranger ... every one that keeps the Sabbath ... for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people." Isaiah 56:6, 7. Thus the Sabbath is for Gentiles and “all people,” not just for Jews.

Is 56
2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the Sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the Sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.



7) "All" mankind will keep the Sabbath in the New Earth. In "the new earth ... from one Sabbath to another, shall all mankind come to worship before me, says the Lord." Isaiah 66:22, 23. Here God says that “all flesh” will be keeping the Sabbath in “the new earth.” If this is the case – and it is – shouldn’t we start now?

8) Gentiles kept the Sabbath in the Book of Acts. "The Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath ... Paul and Barnabas ... persuaded them to continue in the grace of God."' Acts 13:42, 43. Here saved-by-grace Gentiles kept the Sabbath (see also verse 44). See also Acts 17 and Acts 18... of them with Sabbath after Sabbath worship services and Gospel teaching in the synagogues.

9) "The law" [of Ten Commandments] is for "all the world," not just for Jews. Paul wrote these words. Read Romans 2:17-23; 3:19, 23.

10) Luke was a Gentile who kept the Sabbath. Luke was the only Gentile who wrote any New Testament books (he wrote The Gospel According to St. Luke and The Acts of the Apostles). Luke traveled with Paul and wrote, "On the Sabbath we went out of the city by a river side." Acts 16:13. It was the seventh-day Sabbath, the memorial of the creation (see Ex. 20:11). Both Luke and Paul knew it...

11) New Covenant “With the house of Israel” – and so for ALL the saints. Just as command not to worship false gods in Ex 20 – given to Israel freed slaves from Egypt – and also for all mankind.

Jer 31:
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Heb 8
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Ex 20
And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.



[u][/u]
Posted By: dedication

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/01/15 08:26 AM

Very good points -- worth memorizing.

Point #8 concerning Acts 13:42-43 is very clear in the KJV, but the new translations have hidden it. Yet, the Greek supports the KJV.



Also there is Revelation 14--
The message of the first angel, while not actually mentioning the word "Sabbath" has strong connections to the fourth commandment, and this is reinforced by the description of the "saints".

Rev. 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Posted By: JAK

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/01/15 06:10 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Point #8 concerning Acts 13:42-43 is very clear in the KJV, but the new translations have hidden it. Yet, the Greek supports the KJV.

You'll have to be more specific regarding how "the new translations have hidden it."
Hidden what, exactly? Any "new translation" I referenced included mention of the Sabbath, with the exception of the Living Bible, which is not really a translation but a paraphrase.

Point Number Two: You seem to readily appeal to the original Greek to support your position here, yet completely ignore the fact that the Hebrew does not support a "therefore" in our other discussion, and insist on sticking with your unsupported interpretation of Isaiah 2.

As mentioned previously, this kind of "Biblical scholarship" is highly suspect.
Posted By: Bobryan

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/01/15 06:13 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Very good points -- worth memorizing.

Point #8 concerning Acts 13:42-43 is very clear in the KJV, but the new translations have hidden it. Yet, the Greek supports the KJV.



Also there is Revelation 14--
The message of the first angel, while not actually mentioning the word "Sabbath" has strong connections to the fourth commandment, and this is reinforced by the description of the "saints".

Rev. 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.



Which segways nicely into another segment of the "irrefutable" arguments in favor of the TEN Commandments.

We do have a number of examples of quoting the full list of last 6 commandments in the NT - but what about the first four commandments? We have no such list for them in the NT as we have for the last 6.

So a closer look is needed.

in these examples the "lists" that the Bible gives in the NT focus almost entirely on the last 6 commandments and we do not see the first 4 commandments in a "list" in the NT.

In fact we don't see the third commandment quoted at all in the NT.

The THIRD commandment reads like this.

Ex 20
7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain."

Not even a part of that commandment is quoted in the NT!

Can we use this as justification to bend-wrench the Bible to imagine that the 3rd commandment is "deleted if not repeated"?

Or can we use this as justification to bend-wrench the Bible and "imagine" that only the last 6 commandments apply and not the first 4??

"No" says the Bible in James 2 "For HE WHO said" do not commit adultery also said the first 4 commandments.

"No" says the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship- as we saw on recent posts -- thus demonstrating a level of "obvectivity" on this point never even attempted by the "at war against God's ten commandments" POV.

SABBATH COMMANDMENT quoted.

And how many times do we see God's Sabbath Commandment quote even in part in the NT?

Origin –
Gen 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.


Exodus 20:
8 ""Remember The Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 "" Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
11 "" FOR in six days the LORD MADE THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH, THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed The Sabbath day and made it holy.

From Gen 2
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Mark 2:27 “the Sabbath was MADE for Mankind – not mankind MADE for the Sabbath”

And this reference to the Sabbath commandment in the NT – continues…


Acts 4:
24So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: "Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them,

Acts 14:15
and saying, "Men, why are you doing these things? We are also men of the same nature as you, and preach the gospel to you that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, WHO MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM.(NASB shows the quote of Exodus 20)

Rev 14:
7and he said with a loud voice, "Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters."

Heb 4
4For He has said somewhereconcerning the seventh day: "AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS";

Heb 4:9 "There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

Contrast the taking away of laws for animal sacrifice
In Heb 10:4-12 "He takes away the first to establish the second" when it comes to animal sacrifices.

vs REMAINING Ten Commandment Law
But in Heb 4:9 "there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" when the OT law is not taken away.

Same book - same author - two contrasting laws --- one taken away --- one that "remains".
Posted By: JAK

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/01/15 06:44 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Yet, the Greek supports the KJV.

If you want to stick strictly with the Greek the phrase may be rendered either "next Sabbath" or "between the Sabbaths" meaning a week day.

Check Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible or the SDA Bible Commentary, as well as others.

The context in v. 44 makes it clear, however, that "the next Sabbath" is the preferred reading.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/03/15 07:35 AM

Originally Posted By: JAK
Originally Posted By: dedication
Point #8 concerning Acts 13:42-43 is very clear in the KJV, but the new translations have hidden it. Yet, the Greek supports the KJV.

You'll have to be more specific regarding how "the new translations have hidden it."
Hidden what, exactly? Any "new translation" I referenced included mention of the Sabbath, with the exception of the Living Bible, which is not really a translation but a paraphrase.

Point Number Two: You seem to readily appeal to the original Greek to support your position here, yet completely ignore the fact that the Hebrew does not support a "therefore" in our other discussion, and insist on sticking with your unsupported interpretation of Isaiah 2.

Point two: I have not ignored the word "therefore" -- you simply haven't paid attention to what I wrote. The word "for" isn't there either.

Point one:
Yes, the word Sabbath is mentioned, but the clear reference to Gentiles is missing in modern translations. They imply it was simply the people from the congregation that wanted Paul to come back the next Sabbath.

KJV
13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

NIV
As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath.

ASV
And as they went out, they besought that these words might be spoken to them the next sabbath.

ESV
As they went out, the people begged that these things might be told them the next Sabbath

Compare it with the Greek.

1. The names Paul and Barnabas are not in the original in this sentence.
The word is "Ioudaios" which is translated 193 times as "Jews" in scripture.

KJV is correct in saying
And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue

2. How about the Gentiles?
"ethnos" is the word used, which is
translated Gentiles 93, nation 64, heathen 5, people 2
The scriptures uses the word to describe foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles.

Again the KJV is corrected in saying THE GENTILES


3. "parakaleo"
tends to have a more urgent meaning then simply "invited".
"begged" is probably better translation.

So indeed the KJV brings out the historic truth that after the Jews left the synagogue the Gentiles come begging Paul and Barnabas to teach them these truths the next Sabbath. And Paul doesn't tell them "Oh tomorrow is the Gentiles worship day, I'll teach you tomorrow" NO, it would be the NEXT Sabbath ....
Posted By: Bobryan

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/03/15 04:23 PM

Originally Posted By: JAK
Originally Posted By: dedication
Yet, the Greek supports the KJV.

If you want to stick strictly with the Greek the phrase may be rendered either "next Sabbath" or "between the Sabbaths" meaning a week day.

Check Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible or the SDA Bible Commentary, as well as others.

The context in v. 44 makes it clear, however, that "the next Sabbath" is the preferred reading.


"The next Sabbath" seems to be what everyone is agreed to.

in Christ,

Bob
Posted By: kland

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/03/15 07:40 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication

Point one:
Yes, the word Sabbath is mentioned, but the clear reference to Gentiles is missing in modern translations. They imply it was simply the people from the congregation that wanted Paul to come back the next Sabbath.
...
2. How about the Gentiles?
"ethnos" is the word used, which is
translated Gentiles 93, nation 64, heathen 5, people 2
The scriptures uses the word to describe foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles.

Again the KJV is corrected in saying THE GENTILES
You're starting to sound like Green. Do you take the correct word based on numerical vote?

To say, "they" or "the people", how is that incorrect? Gentiles are people too, you know.

Who was Paul speaking to, who was included?

How does it affect your faith whether it was Gentiles or Jews who wanted to meet the next Sabbath? Why does it matter to you that it had to be specific and specifically mentioned that it was Gentiles who were in the Temple? And I'm not sure by Gentiles listening to Paul mean they were "keeping the Sabbath". If visitors attend an SDA church, does that mean they are SDAs or "keeping the Sabbath"? What if they should dare come to a Wednesday night prayer meeting?! (metaxu - intervening, between)

Complaining about version differences (if there even is), is nothing but a diversion and distraction from preaching the Gospel.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/03/15 09:46 PM

Originally Posted By: Kland
How does it affect your faith whether it was Gentiles or Jews who wanted to meet the next Sabbath? Why does it matter to you that it had to be specific and specifically mentioned that it was Gentiles


This issue in speaking to other Christians isn't concerning the fact that the Jews kept the 7th day Sabbath (Saturday).
They don't question the fact that the Jews met in their synagogues on Saturdays.
Their argument is that yes, Saturday was the Jewish Sabbath, but that Paul met with the Gentiles on Sunday. (and they quote Acts 20:6, 1 Cor. 16:20, Romans 14:5, Col. 2:16, and other verses) They say, he did not require the Gentiles to keep Saturday, and that Sunday was preferred, and that the day didn't really matter.

When presenting the Sabbath to other Christians, how this text is read does make a BIG DIFFERENCE.

I am talking from experience, for the changed words place this text into the same basket which Sunday Christians use to dismiss all the Sabbath texts in ACTS.

The argument goes -- Paul first talked to the Jews, so of course he had to go to their synagogues on Saturdays, that's when the Jews met, but that doesn't mean he didn't give the Gentiles Sunday as a better option for the "Lord's day" to get away from the problem of Judiazing.

So to simply say, the Jews wanted Paul to speak to them the next Sabbath, means absolutely nothing to them. Of course that is what Jews would do. (But it WASN'T the Jews who wanted to hear more)


When we show that Luke purposely used the word for GENTILES here it totally changes the pictures.


After the JEWS left the synagogue it was the GENTILE proselytes that beg Paul to come (not to the synagogue this time) but to a meeting for their Gentile friends and neighbors THE NEXT SABBATH.

If the Sunday Christian's theories were correct, Paul would have said -- "no need to wait for the Jewish Sabbath".

Yet the next Sabbath -- we don't see Paul and the Gentiles in the synagogue --
13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Even though the earlier verses dealing with the previous Sabbath were very specific that it was in the synagogue, here we see NO MENTION of any synagogue.

And the Jews are envious and mad, not because their synagogue was overflowing with people, but because it was nearly empty, so they go and start trying to make trouble at the big meeting, (they were losing most of their members and didn't like it) and Paul tells them --

"It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing you put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles."

This is a very specific account dealing with GENTILES while separating from Jews, still worshipping on Saturday, NOT concerning JEWS worshipping on their regular Sabbath.

Posted By: APL

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/03/15 10:22 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
When presenting the Sabbath to other Christians, how this text is read does make a BIG DIFFERENCE.
And the "other" Christian reads the NIV and sees your use of the KJV as strange and your insistence on it will be suspect by them. But you can still use Acts 13 in THEIR version. Acts 13:44 NIV84 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. Acts 13:44 LEB And on the coming Sabbath, nearly the whole city came together to hear the word of the Lord. Acts 13:44 GNB The next Sabbath nearly everyone in the town came to hear the word of the Lord. The whole town was not Jewish.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/04/15 12:28 AM

No, without clarifying WHICH people were requesting the next meeting, Sunday Christians just discard the event as an overflow meeting of the Jews, with lots of visitors from down town, therefore not binding on Gentiles. They were coming to a Jewish meeting (which of course would be on Saturday) to see what Paul was talking about.

So which people requested the meeting on the next Sabbath?
Jews? (who would naturally ask for Sabbath)
Or Gentiles? (To whom Paul could easily have suggested a new day)

The NIV leaves the option open -- the KJV clarifies it.
Thus they aren't contradicting, but the KJV is more specific.



KJV
13:42 And when the Jews "loudaios" were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles "ethnos" besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

NIV
As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath.

What people?

Compare it with the Greek.


The word "loudaios" which is translated 193 times as "Jews" in scripture lets us know the Jews were leaving the synagogue.


Who are the "people" begging Paul to teach next Sabbath?

"ethnos" is the word used here, which is
translated Gentiles 93, nation 64, heathen 5, people 2


The Greek word for people is "ochlos" or "laos"

But Luke doesn't use those words, he chose the word "ethnos"
"ethnos" is Greek word you will usually find when the English word Gentiles is seen your Bibles.

Posted By: APL

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/04/15 01:13 AM

Do not neglect the fact that Evangelicals often do not see a need for the KJV and your insistence on it does not further the cause, they may not listen to you...
Posted By: dedication

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/04/15 08:52 AM

That's not insisting on the KJV, it's seeking the meaning of the words. Does the Greek give us clearer information on who these "people" are? Yes, it does!
Evangelics usually have no problem with comparing the different versions.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/04/15 10:24 AM

Another text in the New Testament that deals with the Sabbath is found in Hebrews

4:9 There remains therefore a rest to the people of God.

Hebrews 3 and 4 has considerable to say about "rest" and it usually doesn't take long, when someone present Hebrews 4:9, before they encounter the following argument:

--The 4th commandment Sabbath was only a shadow of the rest in Christ. Hebrews is talking about finding rest in Christ, it's not telling us to keep the Sabbath.

But Hebrews does not say that!
It does not say "Today come out of the shadow of the old Sabbath and enter into the rest of Christ.

Instead Hebrews says:

TODAY IF YOU WILL HEAR MY VOICE
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEART IN REBELLION

Three times the author repeats this phrase: (3:8. 3:15, 4:7)
What are we to do today? We are to hear God's voice and not harden our hearts in rebellion!

Do we find rest by setting aside the law? No, the Bible say in Psalms 119.165:
"Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them."
It also says in Isaiah 57.20-21 "But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt. There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked."

It's very true that Hebrews 3-4 ALSO refers to the spiritual resting in Christ. But it links the two together, it doesn't' separate them.
We are invited into the rest of fully depending on Christ
"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." (Matt. 11:28)

The Sabbath is an illustration of this rest. It is a time when we put aside our own pursuits, daily jobs, business, etc. and rest in Christ.

So Hebrews chapters 3-4 is speaking of "resting in Christ" type of "rest".


The word most often used is "katapausis"
In fact it is used eight times in that passage.
It means a calming rest.

Therefore a Rest Remains for the people of God. (Hebs. 4:9)

Is this the Sabbath rest,
or just a "resting in Christ"?

The English word "rest" doesn't differentiate from the previous texts on "rest", but the Greek word does!

The word for "rest" in Hebrews 4:9 is (sabbatismos).
The term (sabbatismos) is seen in the writings of ancient Greek authors, and each time the term denotes the observance of the Sabbath.

So the text is saying, that Sabbath observance remains for the people of God.

This should make the NIV people happy --
For the NIV reads:
There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God
Posted By: Bobryan

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/04/15 03:30 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Another text in the New Testament that deals with the Sabbath is found in Hebrews

4:9 There remains therefore a rest to the people of God.




Good points.

In Heb 10 we have the "take away" model "He takes away the first to establish the second" when it comes to animal sacrifice laws -- ended by Christ.

In Heb 4 we have the "There REMAINS" model when Law from the time of the Psalms "remains for the people of God".

Notice that in the OT - "The GOSPEL was preached to THEM Just as it was to US" Heb 4:2.

Notice that in the OT - "They all drank from the same spiritual ROCK and that ROCK was Christ" 1Cor 10.

In the book of Hebrews it is the OT saints in Heb 11 that are held up as models for us - after the cross.

So then - did David "stop keeping the 7th day Sabbath" in Psalms since the saints in the OT were true saved-by-faith Christians? No - he was saved AND the "Sabbath Remained".

In fact Is 66:23 in heaven -- in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to bow down" -- surely all are saved in that picture - yet all keep the actual Sabbath that "remains".
Posted By: Bobryan

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/04/15 03:33 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: dedication
When presenting the Sabbath to other Christians, how this text is read does make a BIG DIFFERENCE.
And the "other" Christian reads the NIV and sees your use of the KJV as strange and your insistence on it will be suspect by them. But you can still use Acts 13 in THEIR version. Acts 13:44 NIV84 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. Acts 13:44 LEB And on the coming Sabbath, nearly the whole city came together to hear the word of the Lord. Acts 13:44 GNB The next Sabbath nearly everyone in the town came to hear the word of the Lord. The whole town was not Jewish.



And of course you can always use the NASB - which most non-SDAs freely admit is more correct than the NIV in many cases where exact word translation is of interest.

in Christ,

Bob
Posted By: Bobryan

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/04/15 03:44 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: dedication

Point one:
Yes, the word Sabbath is mentioned, but the clear reference to Gentiles is missing in modern translations. They imply it was simply the people from the congregation that wanted Paul to come back the next Sabbath.
...
2. How about the Gentiles?
"ethnos" is the word used, which is
translated Gentiles 93, nation 64, heathen 5, people 2
The scriptures uses the word to describe foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles.

Again the KJV is corrected in saying THE GENTILES
You're starting to sound like Green. Do you take the correct word based on numerical vote?

To say, "they" or "the people", how is that incorrect? Gentiles are people too, you know.

Who was Paul speaking to, who was included?

How does it affect your faith whether it was Gentiles or Jews who wanted to meet the next Sabbath? Why does it matter to you that it had to be specific and specifically mentioned that it was Gentiles who were in the Temple? And I'm not sure by Gentiles listening to Paul mean they were "keeping the Sabbath". If visitors attend an SDA church, does that mean they are SDAs or "keeping the Sabbath"? What if they should dare come to a Wednesday night prayer meeting?! (metaxu - intervening, between)

Complaining about version differences (if there even is), is nothing but a diversion and distraction from preaching the Gospel.



Gentiles asking for a "next Sabbath Sermon" even while Jews are rejecting the message - is odd since it just means more Gospel to reluctant Jews in the Synagogue when of course they should have been talking about "come meet with us this Lord's Day - tomorrow for more Gospel sermons and no need to hear all this complaining among the Jews".

Acts 13

14 But going on from Perga, they arrived at Pisidian Antioch, and on the Sabbath day they went into the synagogue and sat down.
15 After the reading of the Law and the Prophets the synagogue officials sent to them, saying, ""Brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say it.''
16 Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said, ""Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen:




42 As Paul and Barnabas were going out, the people kept begging that these things might be spoken to them the next Sabbath.


43 Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God.

44 The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord.
45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming.

46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, ""It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
47 ""For so the Lord has commanded us, " I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES, THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.'''
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

We see gentiles in "Sabbath after Sabbath" synagogue worship services in Acts 13, and Acts 17 and Acts 18... is it any wonder that in Acts 15 when James wants to settle the issue about Gentiles he points out "Moses is preached every Sabbath in the synagogues"?? -- even the non-christian "God fearing Gentiles" were in the synagogues each Sabbath not just the Christian ones.

in Christ,

Bob
Posted By: Bobryan

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/04/15 03:48 PM

The most obvious and natural reading is not that the Jews went out and got the whole city interested in hearing Paul - and then became jealous that they were so good at getting the whole city to come out.

Rather it is that the gentiles got their many other gentile non-convert, non-Christian, non-jewish-anything friends to show up.

I have this discussion with non-SDAs at least once every week or every two weeks - they never argue that no gentiles were in the synagogue that first Sabbath Paul preached. OR that it is not the gentiles that are responding positively while most of the Jews are in rejection.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/04/15 06:10 PM

Originally Posted By: Bobryan
The most obvious and natural reading is not that the Jews went out and got the whole city interested in hearing Paul - and then became jealous that they were so good at getting the whole city to come out.

Rather it is that the gentiles got their many other gentile non-convert, non-Christian, non-jewish-anything friends to show up.

I have this discussion with non-SDAs at least once every week or every two weeks - they never argue that no gentiles were in the synagogue that first Sabbath Paul preached. OR that it is not the gentiles that are responding positively while most of the Jews are in rejection.


Exactly, it was the Gentile proselytes who heard Paul the first Sabbath who begged Paul to preach to them the next Sabbath and gathered all their friends to listen to Paul.
Posted By: APL

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/04/15 07:40 PM

And it does not require the KJV to prove this!
Posted By: dedication

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/05/15 06:36 AM

What do you have against the KJV?
In that particular passage in Acts 13, it is the most accurate.
I find it has higher rate of accuracy than many of the others, though sometimes the others are more accurate.


In Hebrews 4:9 the NIV is more accurate, as it differentiates the "rest" as "Sabbath rest", rather than just "rest", showing it is a different word than that used in the other texts speaking of "rest".

Do you see value in looking at the original language?
Do you see value in comparing different translations on key texts to see which one is most like the original?
Posted By: APL

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/05/15 08:08 AM

Originally Posted By: dedication
What do you have against the KJV?
Did I say I have anything against the KJV? Nope! But Evangelicals I interact with do! And they do not see a need to use the archaic language. They are unconvinced. That is the problem. The KJV only crown have a problem communicating with some of these people.

As for me personally, I have a large library of versions and software to search and compare versions and lexicons to aid in study, all integrated with the writings of EGW and the APL (Adventist pioneer library).
Posted By: dedication

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/05/15 08:29 AM

People who favor the KJV aren't primarily Adventists.
You may find this study interesting:
The Most Popular Bible Translation

Personally I like to compare --

But we are getting off topic.

This thread isn't about Bible versions, but about finding Biblical passages that "irrefutable" give evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining.

I personally find it important to know as much as I can about those verses and get as close to the original meaning as possible.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/05/15 09:18 AM

For Acts 13:42
We could use the Hebrew Names Bible (HNV)

So when the Yehudim went out of the synagogue, the Goyim begged that these words might be preached to them the next Shabbat.

Or the 1599 Geneva Bible

And when they were come out of the Synagogue of the Jews, the Gentiles besought, that they would preach these words to them the next Sabbath day

Or the Jubilee Bible 2000

And when they were gone out of the synagogue of the Jews, the Gentiles besought that these words might be spoken to them the next sabbath.

Or the Modern English Version MEV

When Paul and Barnabas went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles asked that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Or the World English Version WEB

So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/05/15 10:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Bobryan


Irrefutable evidence of 7 statements that start getting fleshed out in the first two posts --

These statements are an example of claims made by the majority of pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!.


Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.




Yes, it is interesting when studying the teachings of early protestants that indeed they did teach these points.
Six of which we can find common ground with.

Yet, when presenting the Sabbath to Sunday observers, so often they deny these six points.

It would probably be good to be fluent in some of these teachings FROM PROTESTANTS themselves when talking to Sunday observers, for these things do not merely "come from EGW" as so many are quick to say, they are basic principles of Christianity.

Of course #7 is a problem --
Matt. 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.


Point #1 I find is often refuted now, many will say the seventh-day was not really a "day" since the "evening and morning" phrase isn't repeated, (even though the word "day" is mentioned three times), and that God didn't "command" anything, it was God that rested from creating.

But Jesus says --"The Sabbath was made for man" Mark 2:28
And the text in Genesis specifically tells us God, blessed and sanctified the day. This is referred back to in the 4th commandment as cited in Exodus 20.

The theistic evolution theory has considerable to do with this point being denied as well.

Point #2 Indeed they believe there is an obligation to God's law, for why would they have "commandment days" and lobby to have the commandments posted in schools, and other public places? Yet, when it comes to the Sabbath issue, we are often told those commandments were nailed to the cross, no longer binding.
But it wasn't the law that was nailed to the cross -- it was our sins that were nailed there as Jesus bore them to cross.

Col 2:13-14 ESV
13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, by nailing it to the cross.

Point #3 The Bible is clear that the 7th day Sabbath, Saturday is the Sabbath all through scripture. AND, as we've seen, the Bible also shows the Sabbath continues AFTER the cross.

Point #4 Yes, the 10 commandments are God's moral law. Yet, the argument I usually am given concerning this, is that the ten commandments aren't really the moral law, they are much to sparse given simply to hold people in line till Christ came with better laws like the Sermon on the Mount.

Now many people do make the mistake of thinking the 10 commandments only deal with the outward act mentioned, yet those commandments go much deeper than just the outward act. Jesus held up the magnifying glass so we can see deeper into what those commandments are. They affect the whole of our love for God, our relationship with others, and our inward moral condition.

Point #5 Fully agree-- the new covenant is God's law (all TEN commandments in their deep and thorough moral wholeness) that is written upon heart and mind. However, there are big arguments against in the Christian world against that now, as people will take Ex. 34:28 "he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments" and say, see, that is the old covenant and the NT says that is passed away. Then they go to Hebrews 7:12 "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." And say, "see there is a change of law"...

Of course, Hebrews 7:12 isn't talking about the moral law, it is talking about Jesus (of the tribe of Judah) being a priest, (only Levites were allowed to be priests) but that law was not binding upon Christ's priesthood who was a priest after the order of Melchisedec.


God's whole law suffers when people fight against one precept of that law.
Posted By: JAK

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/05/15 06:18 PM

Originally Posted By: JAK
So...Just what is the statement under discussion?
So we started off with a discussion of (I thought) the Sabbath...

Then dedication side-tracks it with a jump to the Gentiles...
Originally Posted By: dedication
...but the clear reference to Gentiles is missing in modern translations.


Then she completely derails it by leaping to the synagogue...
Originally Posted By: dedication
Even though the earlier verses dealing with the previous Sabbath were very specific that it was in the synagogue, here we see NO MENTION of any synagogue.


So, dedication, when I say
Originally Posted By: dedication
my sources are from all over the place.
Originally Posted By: JAK
Well now, THAT'S the truth!
that's exactly what you are--all over the place. When you can't answer one argument you simply change to another topic... dunno

So, just for clarification:

Originally Posted By: JAK
So...Just what is the statement under discussion?
Posted By: dedication

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/06/15 05:54 PM

The discussion (as per the title) is evidence for all Ten Commandments remaining.

Bobryan has given some excellent material for discussion on this topic and I hope he continues.

The Sabbath, being the one commandment Sunday observers do not accept in it's specific Saturday day application, is an important part of the discussion.

The argument against keeping ALL ten commandments (with the Sabbath question as central) which is often given is that the commandments were given to the Jews (not to the Gentiles).

Thus the Acts 13:42 verse (as well as other texts in the NT concerning Paul and His companions worshipping on the Sabbath) are part of the topic.

Most people realize the Jews keep Saturday as the Sabbath -- but is it relevant for the Gentile, that is the question we often meet when having Bible studies with others.

Thus, yes, that is part of the topic to define the texts that deal with the Sabbath in the NT.
Posted By: Bobryan

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/07/15 07:22 AM

When it comes to the first six points in the 7 point list some of those who oppose the Ten Commandments will oppose almost all of them - if not all of them.

So then we provide the Bible texts that affirm the first 6 points - and the response is "well that is just you, or just your denomination". When the discussion gets to that point -- then all of the references (and more) on the first few page of this thread are helpful in proving that in fact it is the majority of pro-sunday scholarships that affirms the first 6 points.

The hopeful result??

Quote:

There are very few teachings held exclusively by Seventh-day Adventists. For example their view that the Ten Commandments are still binding on the saints was held in common with Dwight L. Moody[1], the Baptist Confession of Faith (sections 19 and 22), the Westminster Confession of Faith (sections 19 and 21), and the Catholic Catechism[2]. The denomination also has a number of distinctive doctrines which differentiate it from other Christian churches. Some of their views which differ from most Christian churches include: keeping the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh-day_Adventist_theology


Bob
Posted By: JAK

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/09/15 09:16 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Thus, yes, that is part of the topic to define the texts that deal with the Sabbath in the NT.

So now we are back to the Sabbath... dunno

By the way, Bobryan, you have yet to post the "irrefutable evidence."

No evidence is "irrefutable," so I'll take that challenge. Just keep in mind that I believe in the continuing authority of the 10 Commandments, including the 4th. However, one cannot adequately support one's point of view until they have argued the opposite.
Posted By: Bobryan

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/11/15 04:05 PM

The "irrefutable" point is as follows

1. The majority of eve pro-sunday scholarship argue that the Ten Commandments are the moral law of God - written on the heart under the New Covenant and applicable to all saints to this very day. So this point is not unique to 7th day Sabbath keeping Christians.

2. The Law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 and so the term "Law of God" must be understood in context of the author and his contemporary readers.

3. The quote of Jer 31:31-33 by Paul in Heb 8 affirms the same point and is affirmed by the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship.

4. D.L. Moody's statement, C.H. Spurgeon's statement and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" statement are good representative statements for the way this pro-Ten-Commandments POV was being presented in the 1800's at the time that Adventists fully accepted the 4th commandment unedited.

5. There are a number of texts both OT and NT that help explain why it is that even pro-Sunday scholarship admits to the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God - binding on all mankind (even saints) from Eden to this very day.
Posted By: kland

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/11/15 06:18 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: Kland
How does it affect your faith whether it was Gentiles or Jews who wanted to meet the next Sabbath? Why does it matter to you that it had to be specific and specifically mentioned that it was Gentiles


This issue in speaking to other Christians isn't concerning the fact that the Jews kept the 7th day Sabbath (Saturday).
They don't question the fact that the Jews met in their synagogues on Saturdays.
Their argument is that yes, Saturday was the Jewish Sabbath, but that Paul met with the Gentiles on Sunday. (and they quote Acts 20:6, 1 Cor. 16:20, Romans 14:5, Col. 2:16, and other verses) They say, he did not require the Gentiles to keep Saturday, and that Sunday was preferred, and that the day didn't really matter.

When presenting the Sabbath to other Christians, how this text is read does make a BIG DIFFERENCE.

I am talking from experience, for the changed words place this text into the same basket which Sunday Christians use to dismiss all the Sabbath texts in ACTS.
But you are arguing with people who have already made up their mind regardless of scripture. Just like some people insist that Peter seeing the sheet of unclean animals is talking about food.

So you are trying to use a favorite version to convince people against their already made up mind. It won't make a difference!

Whether Gentiles came into the church on Sabbath or on another day is not relevant. They came to hear the Word of God, not because it was held on a specific day. It was because they recognized the truth, they recognized Life!


Quote:
What do you have against the KJV?
In that particular passage in Acts 13, it is the most accurate.
I find it has higher rate of accuracy than many of the others, though sometimes the others are more accurate.
As APL pointed out, we aren't against the KJV. We are against those promoting KJV and only KJV as the direct word from God. Not saying you are quite like that, but like I say, you are starting to sound like Green.

If your whole religion is based upon what one text in your favorite version says, your religion is based upon nothing.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/12/15 03:35 AM

Quote:
Kland wrote: But you are arguing with people who have already made up their mind regardless of scripture. Just like some people insist that Peter seeing the sheet of unclean animals is talking about food.



That may be true on forums where it seems everyone comes with their "minds made up", but in real life it's a different situation.

And no it's not just a "favorite version" it's looking at the actual words in the original.
If you notice -- I posted several different versions that had the correct translation.

Yes, the Gentiles that heard Paul the first Sabbath asked for Him to preach it again, because they recognized truth, yet the response of Paul does show something important.

If the Gentile proselytes wanted to invite their Gentile friends and neighbors to hear Paul preach the same message, this would have been an excellent point in time for Paul to say -- Sunday is the new day for special worship, especially for Gentile believers, we can all meet tomorrow and celebrate Christ's resurrection "Lord's day" and I'll tell you more about Jesus.

But no -- we see it happened on the NEXT Sabbath that almost all the Gentiles in the city came to hear Paul.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/12/15 07:08 PM

Look at how much space in the Bible is devoted to dealing with the circumcision question. Can you imagine how much space it would have taken if the Sabbath had been changed to Sunday? The absence of discussion is one more proof it never happened.
Posted By: Bobryan

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/13/15 01:56 AM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: Bobryan


Irrefutable evidence of 7 statements that start getting fleshed out in the first two posts --

These statements are an example of claims made by the majority of pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!.


Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.




Yes, it is interesting when studying the teachings of early protestants that indeed they did teach these points.
Six of which we can find common ground with.

Yet, when presenting the Sabbath to Sunday observers, so often they deny these six points.

It would probably be good to be fluent in some of these teachings FROM PROTESTANTS themselves when talking to Sunday observers,


Indeed very often the loudest complaints from pro-sunday groups are against the first 6 points listed - the very ones affirmed by the "Westminster Confession of Faith" C.H. Spurgeon's the "Baptist Confession of Faith" the Catholic Catechism, D.L. Moody, R.C. Sproul, Andy Stanley (on his better days), Matthew Henry and many others.

Their own pro-sunday scholars -- oppose them.

Quote:

for these things do not merely "come from EGW" as so many are quick to say, they are basic principles of Christianity.

Of course #7 is a problem --
Matt. 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.



True - but very often it is a problem where those that complain the most - actually agree with us.


Quote:

Point #1 I find is often refuted now, many will say the seventh-day was not really a "day" since the "evening and morning" phrase isn't repeated, (even though the word "day" is mentioned three times), and that God didn't "command" anything, it was God that rested from creating.



But it was not doubted for a moment by those in the list I just gave - except now for the RCC .. they have backed away from point #1 in favor of evolutionism - and most of the others are behind blind faith evolutionism as well. So they may all be dwindling down to 5 pointers.

Quote:


But Jesus says --"The Sabbath was made for man" Mark 2:28
And the text in Genesis specifically tells us God, blessed and sanctified the day. This is referred back to in the 4th commandment as cited in Exodus 20.

The theistic evolution theory has considerable to do with this point being denied as well.


yep!

Quote:

Point #2 Indeed they believe there is an obligation to God's law, for why would they have "commandment days" and lobby to have the commandments posted in schools, and other public places? Yet, when it comes to the Sabbath issue, we are often told those commandments were nailed to the cross, no longer binding.


In the end the view that it was "edited" instead of abolished .. will win. That is probably how the sunday laws will come back.

Quote:

But it wasn't the law that was nailed to the cross -- it was our sins that were nailed there as Jesus bore them to cross.


Precisely.

Quote:

Col 2:13-14 ESV
13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, by nailing it to the cross.


NASB calls it "certificate of debt" the written code .. the speeding ticket - not the law that says that 70 is the limit.

Posted By: kland

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/17/15 08:24 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Quote:
Kland wrote: But you are arguing with people who have already made up their mind regardless of scripture. Just like some people insist that Peter seeing the sheet of unclean animals is talking about food.



That may be true on forums where it seems everyone comes with their "minds made up", but in real life it's a different situation.

And no it's not just a "favorite version" it's looking at the actual words in the original.
If you notice -- I posted several different versions that had the correct translation.

Yes, the Gentiles that heard Paul the first Sabbath asked for Him to preach it again, because they recognized truth, yet the response of Paul does show something important.

If the Gentile proselytes wanted to invite their Gentile friends and neighbors to hear Paul preach the same message, this would have been an excellent point in time for Paul to say -- Sunday is the new day for special worship, especially for Gentile believers, we can all meet tomorrow and celebrate Christ's resurrection "Lord's day" and I'll tell you more about Jesus.

But no -- we see it happened on the NEXT Sabbath that almost all the Gentiles in the city came to hear Paul.
Whether in a forum on in person, an invalid argument is still an invalid argument.

Suppose your pastor was invited to a Sunday church to give a talk about a particular subject. Suppose all the attendees wanted to know more and invited him back the next Sunday.

Does that mean your pastor is indicating to them that the Sabbath is not important or that Sunday is the preferred day to keep? It answers nothing for nor against which day is the Sabbath. In fact, with Paul, it could very well be a Wednesday night prayer meeting he came back to!

In summary, the argument is invalid, you are supporting their invalid argument, and you are trying to cause a distraction where none is warranted. There may be issues where one Bible version is wrong or right. But this isn't one of them.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/18/15 07:08 AM

Why do you think it's invalid?
The Greek makes a clear distinction between the two groups of people.
It's the Gentiles (not the Jews) that begged Paul to preach to them the next Sabbath.

Why do you seek to deny that point?

13:42 And when the Jews "loudaios" were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles "ethnos" besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.


Aren't you interested in seeing the many evidences that Sabbath is also for the Gentiles not just for the Jews?


After all that's what this topic is about --
It's not about demanding that just because the KJV translation is correct in this verse therefore we must not refer to that argument for it must be invalid????? That doesn't make sense.


Here are other translations that have Acts 13:42 correct.

Hebrew Names Bible (HNV)

"So when the Yehudim went out of the synagogue, the Goyim begged that these words might be preached to them the next Shabbat".

Or the 1599 Geneva Bible

And when they were come out of the Synagogue of the Jews, the Gentiles besought, that they would preach these words to them the next Sabbath day

Or the Jubilee Bible 2000

And when they were gone out of the synagogue of the Jews, the Gentiles besought that these words might be spoken to them the next sabbath.

Or the Modern English Version MEV

When Paul and Barnabas went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles asked that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Or the World English Version WEB

So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/18/15 08:06 AM

Bobryan wrote: "In the end the view that it was "edited" instead of abolished .. will win. That is probably how the sunday laws will come back."


I believe you are right.
Sunday is the child of the papacy.
Sunday is the papal sign that the pope has supposed authority above the law of God.

In May of 1998, Pope John Paul II presented his Encyclical on Sunday observance, Dies Domini, in which he makes a passionate plea for a revival of Sunday observance, and he appeals to the moral imperative of the Sabbath commandment in the Decalogue.

By appealing to the Sabbath commandment, Pope John Paul II challenges Christians to respect Sunday, not merely as a day for a one hour worship service, but as a divine command to honor it as God's Sabbath. Furthermore, by referring to the Sabbath commandment, John Paul II sought to root Sunday keeping in the Sabbath commandment, thus giving the strongest moral reasons to urge Christians to "ensure that civil legislation respects their duty to keep Sunday holy."

And the present pope's popularity as the spiritual leader in the world is steadily growing!!

Quote:
POPE FRANCIS SAYS THAT SUNDAY NEEDS TO BE RECOVERED - IN KEEPING WITH JOHN PAUL II 'DIES DOMINI' (April 2014)
"The Catholic Church has been recovering this teaching at least since 1998, when Pope John Paul II published his apostolic letter Dies Domini ... Last October, about 250 bishops met in Rome for a conference on the movement called the New Evangelization, which focuses on reawakening faith in those already baptized. One of their conclusions was, Even though there is a tension between the Christian Sunday and the secular Sunday, Sunday needs to be recovered - in keeping, they wrote, with John Paul's Dies Domini
Posted By: kland

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/18/15 07:49 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Why do you think it's invalid?
I thought I was clear why the argument was invalid. The text does not indicate nor is the purpose of the passage to indicate which day is the Sabbath.

Quote:

The Greek makes a clear distinction between the two groups of people.
If you're talking about the verse, different English words have been used for "loudaios". Are you suggesting that quantative use denies all other uses and therefore other uses are wrong and should be corrected?

Ac 26:3-5 Especially because I know thee to be expert in all customs and questions which are among the Jews: wherefore I beseech thee to hear me patiently. My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own Gentiles at Jerusalem, know all the Jews; Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

Quote:
It's the Gentiles (not the Jews) that begged Paul to preach to them the next Sabbath.

Why do you seek to deny that point?
I'm not denying whether it is Gentiles or Jews begging Paul. I'm denying your assertion that the KJV is "correct" over others on this point.

Quote:
Aren't you interested in seeing the many evidences that Sabbath is also for the Gentiles not just for the Jews?
I don't see how that is in any way relevant to the issue.
(See my first comment here)

Quote:
After all that's what this topic is about --
It's not about demanding that just because the KJV translation is correct in this verse therefore we must not refer to that argument for it must be invalid????? That doesn't make sense.
You're so right. It doesn't make sense. At least when you substitute what I said for something else. Please restate what you think I am saying is "invalid".

Quote:
Here are other translations that have Acts 13:42 correct.
Not what you came across as. By saying the KJV is correct, especially with Green's past problems, it comes across as KJV and KJV only.


Maybe you can state again why you think some versions are incorrect making sure you are not addressing "English" words as Green does.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/19/15 06:41 AM

Kland, Why are you insisting on taking this thread off topic?
We aren't talking about Green or KJV ONLY.

Yes, I see Luke (the writer of the book of Acts) taking special care to let us know it was the Gentiles asking for Paul to speak to them the next Sabbath, it was not the Jews.

Forget about Bible versions, and trying to defend every version, and just look at Luke's use of the words. He clearly makes a distinction between the Jews and the Gentiles.

Once that is established -- then chose whatever Bible version most accurately portrays Luke's original words.
Isn't that what any earnest Bible student would do?

World English Version WEB

"So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath."

Hebrew Names Bible (HNV)

"So when the Yehudim went out of the synagogue, the Goyim begged that these words might be preached to them the next Shabbat".

Posted By: dedication

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/19/15 08:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Bobryan
Quote:
So...Just what is the statement under discussion?


Irrefutable evidence of 7 statements that start getting fleshed out in the first two posts --

These statements are an example of claims made by the majority of pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!.


Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.




point #1

1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3


Anti-Sabbath arguments insist that a Sabbath command is no where to be found in the book of Genesis. That in Gen 2, God was simply ending His work of creation and blessing it, not establishing any weekly 7th day Sabbath. And that the weekly Sabbath wasn't in existence until it was given to the Israelites during the Exodus.

Yet the truth about the Sabbath’s existence in Genesis has been acknowledged by both Adventists and non-Adventists alike.


FIRST-- we have a seven day week.
The 7‑day week is older than the Israelites, as it was observed by the Sumerians and Babylonians.
While attempts have been made to institute other lengths of a "week", they have all failed and mankind reverts back to the seven day weekly cycle.
God created the week; a seven day weekly cycle.



SECONDLY: The fourth commandment points back to creation account.

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


Is the Sabbath in Genesis? The fourth commandment answered the question. In Genesis God blessed the seventh day and sanctified (set it apart for holy purposes):

Genesis 2:3
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Compare that with the fourth commandment

Exodus 20:10-11
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God. (11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


The question, “Is the Sabbath in Genesis?” is fully answered in the fourth commandment itself.

Genesis 2:3
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Now when we return to the commandment, verse 10 reads:


The fourth commandment says God blessed the seventh day, and then says that the seventh day “is the sabbath” day. The words “is the” makes it ever clear that the seventh day of Genesis 2:3 is the same seventh day of the fourth commandment, which God himself says that that is the “sabbath” day.


Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


The fourth commandment says God blessed the seventh day, and then says that the seventh day “is the sabbath” day. The words “is the” makes it ever clear that the seventh day of Genesis 2:3 is the same seventh day of the fourth commandment, which God himself says that that is the “sabbath” day.

THIRD:
Jesus says, “The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.” –Mark 2:27.

The Sabbath was made for human beings.
Posted By: kland

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/19/15 11:59 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Kland, Why are you insisting on taking this thread off topic?
Well, you throw an off-topic in there and I'm merely refuting the error.
Posted By: Bobryan

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/20/15 03:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Bobryan
Quote:
So...Just what is the statement under discussion?


Irrefutable evidence of 7 statements that start getting fleshed out in the first two posts --

These statements are an example of claims made by the majority of pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!.


Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.


Originally Posted By: dedication



point #1

1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3


Anti-Sabbath arguments insist that a Sabbath command is no where to be found in the book of Genesis. That in Gen 2, God was simply ending His work of creation and blessing it, not establishing any weekly 7th day Sabbath. And that the weekly Sabbath wasn't in existence until it was given to the Israelites during the Exodus.

Yet the truth about the Sabbath’s existence in Genesis has been acknowledged by both Adventists and non-Adventists alike.


FIRST-- we have a seven day week.
The 7‑day week is older than the Israelites, as it was observed by the Sumerians and Babylonians.
While attempts have been made to institute other lengths of a "week", they have all failed and mankind reverts back to the seven day weekly cycle.
God created the week; a seven day weekly cycle.



SECONDLY: The fourth commandment points back to creation account.

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


Is the Sabbath in Genesis? The fourth commandment answered the question. In Genesis God blessed the seventh day and sanctified (set it apart for holy purposes):

Genesis 2:3
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Compare that with the fourth commandment

Exodus 20:10-11
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God. (11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


The question, “Is the Sabbath in Genesis?” is fully answered in the fourth commandment itself.

Genesis 2:3
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Now when we return to the commandment, verse 10 reads:


The fourth commandment says God blessed the seventh day, and then says that the seventh day “is the sabbath” day. The words “is the” makes it ever clear that the seventh day of Genesis 2:3 is the same seventh day of the fourth commandment, which God himself says that that is the “sabbath” day.


Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


The fourth commandment says God blessed the seventh day, and then says that the seventh day “is the sabbath” day. The words “is the” makes it ever clear that the seventh day of Genesis 2:3 is the same seventh day of the fourth commandment, which God himself says that that is the “sabbath” day.

THIRD:
Jesus says, “The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.” –Mark 2:27.

The Sabbath was made for human beings.




All good points. And notice that it is the 'same word' in Ex 20:11 for "sanctified" and "made holy" that you see in Gen 2:3.

The 7th day is said to be sanctified, set apart in both texts and in Ex 20:8-11 God "could have said" something like "I did a lot of amazing things in the past when I created life on earth ,, so now I am going to bless the 7th day, set it apart- sanctify it so that you will not forget all the things I did when I made the world".

Instead of that God said "He already DID" bless and sanctify and set that day apart and that the Gen 2:l-3 facts "alone" established the fact already.


I have the irrefutable list and summary as follows

Originally Posted By: Bobryan
The "irrefutable" point is as follows

1. The majority of eve pro-sunday scholarship argue that the Ten Commandments are the moral law of God - written on the heart under the New Covenant and applicable to all saints to this very day. So this point is not unique to 7th day Sabbath keeping Christians.

2. The Law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 and so the term "Law of God" must be understood in context of the author and his contemporary readers.

3. The quote of Jer 31:31-33 by Paul in Heb 8 affirms the same point and is affirmed by the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship.

4. D.L. Moody's statement, C.H. Spurgeon's statement and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" statement are good representative statements for the way this pro-Ten-Commandments POV was being presented in the 1800's at the time that Adventists fully accepted the 4th commandment unedited.

5. There are a number of texts both OT and NT that help explain why it is that even pro-Sunday scholarship admits to the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God - binding on all mankind (even saints) from Eden to this very day.


Notice that I say "most of" the pro-sunday scholars. I never deny that there will always be agroup that will not agree with them.

So then it is a point about objectivity where I show that even among their own pro-sunday scholarship - there are certain Bible details so glaringly obvious that both sides of the debate agree to them.

in Christ,

Bob
Posted By: dedication

Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining - 03/31/15 08:55 AM

Quote:
2. The Law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 and so the term "Law of God" must be understood in context of the author and his contemporary readers.

The author is Jeremiah, a prophet of God, living just prior and during Jerusalem’s fall to Babylon.
He warns of coming doom. Why is trouble coming upon God’s people?

Jer. 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, [even] the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.
What law were they rejecting?
Jer. 26:4 Thus saith the LORD; If ye will not hearken to me, to walk in my law, which I have set before you,

It was God’s law that was “set before them”. It was God’s law they were rejecting and sinking into moral darkness, and thus it is God’s law that is promised to be written upon heart and mind making them willing and able to walk in it’s precepts.

Yes, there are people who believe it is the same moral law:

Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary
Jeremiah 31:27-24
“In Heb 8:8,9, this place is quoted as the sum of the covenant of grace made with believers in Jesus Christ. Not, I will give them a new law; for Christ came not to destroy the law, but to fulfil it; but the law shall be written in their hearts by the finger of the Spirit, as formerly written in the tables of stone. The Lord will, by his grace, make his people willing people in the day of his power.”

C.H.Spurgeon
THE LAW WRITTEN IN THE HEART
NO. 1687

“And I will write it in their hearts.” Just as the Holy Words were engraved upon stone, so shall they now be written in the heart, in the handwriting of the Lord, Himself. Mark that the Law is written not on the heart, but in the heart, in the very texture and constitution of it, so that into the center and core of the soul, obedience shall be infused as a vital principle!
Thus, you see, the Lord has selected for His tablets that which is the seat of life.... God says that, instead of writing His Holy Law on stones which may be left at a distance—He will write it on the heart, which must always be within us.

Coffman's Commentaries on the Bible
"But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."
Notice that God does not here state that he will cancel or no longer require his law to be observed, but that he will achieve the observance of his holy law by an utterly new method. That new method would be by the means of "the new birth" (John 1:3-7). A new heart would be created in obedient believers, and this would enable a more acceptable obedience to Divine Law.



However, in looking through what other scholar's write, it was sad to see how much effort has been put in to the idea that somehow God's grace changed God's law.
It's better to stay with the Bible itself --

The point can be made without the scholars --
Jeremiah and the people he witnessed to, understood the law as God's law which was set before them, not some "changed law". And it was this law that God would write upon their hearts.
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