Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 03/20/2002:34 PM
I think we should meet in small groups till this is resolved, that would be prudent. We knew it would get to this...
"But the path got more narrow. They had to press close to the wall, to save from falling off the narrow road down the steep cliff. Now the bundles on the horses pressed on the wall and pushed them towards the cliff, they feared to fall and be dashed in pieces on the rocks so they cut the luggage from the horses, and it fell over the cliff.
They now went on horseback, afraid as they came to the narrower places in the road, to loose their balance and fall. At such times a hand seemed to take the bridle and guide over the risky way. But the path grew narrower; they could no longer go with safety on horseback, and left the horses and went on foot, in single file, one following in the footsteps of another.
Now small cords were let down from the top of the pure white wall; these they gladly grasped, to help keep their balance on the path. The cords moved along with them.
Still the path got more narrow and they thought they could travel more safely without shoes, so they took them off. Soon it was decided that they could travel more safely without stockings; these were removed, and they went on with bare feet.
They then thought of those who were not used to hardships. Where were they now? They were not in the company. At every change some were left behind, and those only kept going who learned to endure hardships. The difficult way only made these more eager to press on to the end.
The danger of falling off increased. They pressed close to the white wall, yet there wasn't room to put their feet fully on the path, for it was too narrow. Now they began to put nearly their whole weight on the cords, saying: "We have hold from above! We have hold from above!" They all said this. They could hear noises from the bottom of the steep cliff, laughing and worldly music; bad words and dirty jokes; war songs and dance songs; and cursing, cries, wails and loud laughter. They were so anxious to stay on that narrow path!
Now they depended more on the cords, which grew as they went on. Ellen saw the beautiful white wall was stained with blood. She felt sad to see it but then felt it was all as it should be. Those who are following after will know that others have passed the narrow, difficult way before them, and that they can do the same. As the blood shall be pressed from their aching feet, they will not faint and give up; but, seeing the blood upon the wall, they will know that others have endured the same pain.
Finally the path ended at a drop-off. They was no path for their feet at all. But by now they were mostly hanging to the cords, which had grown to be almost as big as their bodies. For a while they were afraid. 'What is holding the cords'? they asked. They were having a hard struggle, if they failed now, all the hard journey would be for nothing"...https://www.ellenwhitedefend.com/children%27s/visions_&_dreams.htm
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 03/21/2005:11 PM
It's not so much a question of "should we avoid meeting together in large groups in enclosed areas" (which church meetings are) when there is a probability of infection. It's probably wise to stay away for the duration.
The question that concerns me is -- what is government making of this? If, in a couple weeks all things return to normal -- and no freedoms are compromised -- no new restrictive laws are passed and implemented etc. etc. then it was just a precaution.
BUT
The question high on our minds is "what is government making of this? Crises tend to be exploited to further control and reduce freedoms.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 03/24/2009:36 PM
Quote
There are 28 positive cases of #COVID19 in NS, ranging in age from late-teens to mid-70?s. To date, Nova Scotia has 28 positive test results and 2088 negative cases.
28? Wonder what the 2088 negative cases are about. 28? This is sad. Reimagine it with a twist, about global warming or even virus, etc. If they were talking about how failing to worship on sunday is putting the country at risk, that we must do these things to save the world, blah, blah, blah.
Hope people remember this the next election. Unfortunately, the people will say, please save us oh government. 'Give me life, or take away my liberties!'
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 03/26/2001:46 PM
Past Flu (CNN)An estimated 80,000 Americans died of flu and its complications last winter [2017-2018], according to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
In previous seasons, flu-related deaths have ranged from a low of about 12,000 during the 2011-2012 season to a high of about 56,000 during the 2012-2013.
Additionally, the nation experienced a record-breaking estimated 900,000 hospitalizations last flu season.
CDC: Estimated influenza disease burden, by age group ? United States, 2014-2015 influenza season Deaths: 51,376
Estimated influenza disease burden, by age group ? United States, 2015-2016 influenza season Deaths: 22,705
Table 1: Estimated influenza disease burden, by age group ? United States, 2016-2017 influenza season Deaths: 38,230
Table 1: Estimated influenza disease burden, by age group ? United States, 2017-2018 influenza season Deaths: 61,099
Table 1: Estimated influenza disease burden, by age group ? United States, 2018-2019 influenza season Deaths: 34,157
Current flu CBSNews Updated on: March 23, 2020 Worldwide, the number of coronavirus cases has increased to more than 329,000 and the number of deaths has topped 14,000, according to Johns Hopkins University.
indiatimes.com World leaders are to hold online crisis talks Thursday on the coronavirus pandemic that has forced three billion people into lockdown and claimed more than 21,000 lives. 26 Mar, 2020, 11:42AM IST
wikipedia As of 26 March, more than 489,000 cases of COVID-19 have been reported in over 190 countries and territories, resulting in approximately 22,100 deaths and more than 118,000 recoveries.[4][5]
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 03/26/2001:51 PM
... Yes, there is a flu going around. Yes, there are people dying from it. Yes, and just like varying each year, sometimes the flu is more sever and sometimes less severe. What "they" are doing is mean spirited, selfish, and self serving.
Millions of people are going to be harmed. But it's not from the flu. It's from self-serving people in charge and coercing those in charge. This isn't about the flu. This isn't about double Pences. Nor about Omegas spontaneously turning into "W"s. This is a plan. A plan being laid in place for years. A plan for future control. To control buying and selling. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZKti8eD0H8
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 03/27/2001:01 AM
Looks like Trump is thinking the same thing as the speaker, that this lock down is BAD. He wants to lift the "lock down" to save the economy. See Save the economy Trump says: "If he listened to medical professionals, Mr. Trump says, he would shut down the country for so long it would be devastating. The protracted economic anguish would result in more suffering than from the virus itself."
And people think he's "mad", there's plenty of outcry against him lifting the "lock down".
The virus can last on cardboard for up to 24 hours. The coronavirus can exist on stainless steel objects for two to three days. Plastic objects can harbor the virus for two to three days.
So why other articles about post offices focusing on cardboard instead of their countertops and door handles. Seems like a media campaign's first step for doing away with dollars.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 03/28/2007:59 PM
There is a definite focus on getting away from actual money and making all transactions digital --- digital money, Even tithes and offerings are being HIGHLY encouraged to go digital, especially now when churches are closed. Digital money -- governments will know exactly what you buy and spend your money on, how much you have, etc. etc. and can stop you from using it by the flick of switch. No more having a cache of bills under the mattress or in a jar like grandma used to have, for emergencies..
Social life as we knew it is cancelled! Camp Meetings for this summer cancelled. All youth camps for this summer cancelled. Graduation and Alumni gatherings cancelled. General Conference 2020 cancelled (postponed to next May) All churches closed. Restaurants closed. Activity centers closed. Libraries closed.
Thousands have been laid off from their jobs.
Economic crises looms ahead for the whole "shut down" country. If this lock down continues for months we will face something far worse than the chance of contacting a virus.
" The centralizing of wealth and power; the vast combinations for the enriching of the few at the expense of the many; the combinations of the poorer classes for the defense of their interests and claims; the spirit of unrest, of riot and bloodshed; the world-wide dissemination of the same teachings that led to the French Revolution--all are tending to involve the whole world in a struggle similar to that which convulsed France. {Ed 228.2}
Request for prayer has gone forth that God grant us a little more time -- there are still so many that need to be reached.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 03/29/2003:09 PM
For some older folk the restrictions have actually brought a blessing. They were already in a state of "isolation" due to their age and physical handicaps, and hadn't attended church for years. Now they tune in with their laptops or phones to our internet groups and join us in worship! No, it's not as good as physical visitation -- but for some it's better then what they had before.
Maybe this will help us realize how the "shut ins" felt and make us more aware of people's need to be in touch with others.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 03/29/2010:50 PM
The Question: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? The Answer: YES!
The answer of YES is: Legal, Moral and Ethical.
Imagine the local SDA Church is "open" for Sabbath services and there are 80 people present. As this is a typical SDA Church, the sanctuary will see the 80 people sitting about 6 inches to 2 feet apart. Door knobs, benh arms, washrooms, ALL would be cross contaminated through the service.
3 of the people had not self isolated after returning for a trip to New York City 10 days ago. these 3 are active carriers and only show signs of COVID-19 in their 12th day (Monday after the Sabbath service).
Congratulations 24 other people from this Church service are now contaminated with active virus. Only 18 of them show signs of COVID-19 in the next 2 weeks BUT they were not aware and have infected 40 others who have infected 66 others and have infected 126 others and now in the 5th week since that original Sabbath service: OVER 380 with full COVID-19. With the death rate at 4% that could realistically be 15 PEOPLE DEAD!
This is serious and Science acknowledges this.
We are not denying our Lord by closing our Church services for a few weeks or even 2 months. We are able to still communicate and even worship through ZOOM, Facebook Live, ...
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 03/30/2004:43 AM
Originally Posted by D R
The Question: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? The Answer: YES!
The answer of YES is: Legal, Moral and Ethical.
Imagine the local SDA Church is "open" for Sabbath services and there are 80 people present. As this is a typical SDA Church, the sanctuary will see the 80 people sitting about 6 inches to 2 feet apart. Door knobs, benh arms, washrooms, ALL would be cross contaminated through the service.
3 of the people had not self isolated after returning for a trip to New York City 10 days ago. these 3 are active carriers and only show signs of COVID-19 in their 12th day (Monday after the Sabbath service).
Congratulations 24 other people from this Church service are now contaminated with active virus. Only 18 of them show signs of COVID-19 in the next 2 weeks BUT they were not aware and have infected 40 others who have infected 66 others and have infected 126 others and now in the 5th week since that original Sabbath service: OVER 380 with full COVID-19. With the death rate at 4% that could realistically be 15 PEOPLE DEAD!
This is serious and Science acknowledges this.
We are not denying our Lord by closing our Church services for a few weeks or even 2 months. We are able to still communicate and even worship through ZOOM, Facebook Live, ...
These are valid points. What are your thoughts concerning the powers governments around the world are quickly granting themselves? Will all of the human rights of citizens be returned once the emergency is over? Will another "emergency" occur next year?
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 03/30/2002:06 PM
Originally Posted by D R
Congratulations 24 other people from this Church service are now contaminated with active virus. Only 18 of them show signs of COVID-19 in the next 2 weeks BUT they were not aware and have infected 40 others who have infected 66 others and have infected 126 others and now in the 5th week since that original Sabbath service: OVER 380 with full COVID-19. With the death rate at 4% that could realistically be 15 PEOPLE DEAD!
This is serious and Science acknowledges this.
Would that not be a concern for the flu virus for other years? In the 2017-2018 flu season, over 60,000 people in the U.S. alone died from the flu. But they didn't shut churches and businesses down for that.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 03/30/2002:52 PM
Where did you obtain those 2017-2018 flu season stats??? A link to that would be nice.
Originally Posted by kland
Originally Posted by D R
Congratulations 24 other people from this Church service are now contaminated with active virus. Only 18 of them show signs of COVID-19 in the next 2 weeks BUT they were not aware and have infected 40 others who have infected 66 others and have infected 126 others and now in the 5th week since that original Sabbath service: OVER 380 with full COVID-19. With the death rate at 4% that could realistically be 15 PEOPLE DEAD!
This is serious and Science acknowledges this.
Would that not be a concern for the flu virus for other years? In the 2017-2018 flu season, over 60,000 people in the U.S. alone died from the flu. But they didn't shut churches and businesses down for that.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 04/02/2008:41 PM
D R,
I tend to agree with kland on this one. It is almost certain that I had the coronavirus at Christmastime. That was before it had made its biggest waves in the news headlines. At the time, I didn't know I had anything other than the seasonal flu. But it was an extra rough flu, let me tell you. I had pneumonia, with coughing fits so bad a couple times I tasted blood. And for the first time in my life, I had a strange breathing problem that made me unable to inhale at random times. When you can't take a breath, it's very scary. I imagined that I might be dying. But, with the help of extra vitamins, and by going on a juice fast for two days, I got over it. I know others who have had it as well. It's basically just a severe flu bug. I would estimate it to be between 2 and 3 times as severe as the ordinary flu, based on my own personal experience with it.
Now, consider that I personally know of a handful of people who have had the bug, none of whom were officially tested. They are not in the statistics. I don't know anyone who has had it and been officially diagnosed. This means that countless thousands have had it, many of whom have never gone to a doctor over it, and they've gotten well. Put that little tidbit beside all of the "doom and gloom" "facts" that you see about how sadistic the statistics look for mortality rates, and you can quickly see that it's all been manipulated to make it appear extra fearsome.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 04/04/2004:02 AM
The extent of the Coronavirus is being exaggerated! Watch this short, eye opening, video! More and more stories like this are beginning to emerge from around the globe. https://youtu.be/5pIMD1enwd4
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 04/05/2008:14 PM
Originally Posted by ProdigalOne
The extent of the Coronavirus is being exaggerated! Watch this short, eye opening, video! More and more stories like this are beginning to emerge from around the globe. https://youtu.be/5pIMD1enwd4
Or completely made up! Saw a video about bill gates saying they tried this with zika and sars. Meaning preparedness, but....? Especially since sars couldn't even be defined/distinguished.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 04/05/2009:54 PM
We must be deceived by the thousands of medical workers, that are working with fake COVID 19 patients...
Youtube has videos that prove Area 51 and Aliens are real! Youtube has videos that prove Reptilians rule the world. Youtube has videos that prove Global warming is real. Youtube has videos that prove Global warming is fake. Youtube has videos that prove School shootings are fake.
YES I trust Youtube LOL
Cheers to you all and good luck with your health whether you believe we are in danger of COVID19 or not.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 04/06/2005:36 AM
Originally Posted by kland
Originally Posted by ProdigalOne
The extent of the Coronavirus is being exaggerated! Watch this short, eye opening, video! More and more stories like this are beginning to emerge from around the globe. https://youtu.be/5pIMD1enwd4
Or completely made up! Saw a video about bill gates saying they tried this with zika and sars. Meaning preparedness, but....? Especially since sars couldn't even be defined/distinguished.
It is hard to know just what to believe.
It is a pandemic that we know about ONLY via the news.
I talked to two different people working in two different hospitals. Asked them what things were like. The first worked in a relatively small hospital in a town. She said hardly NO ONE came to the hospital, it was almost empty, even of regular patients. People were afraid to come for fear of contacting the virus. The only sign of the pandemic was an increased cleaning and disinfecting mandate on everything being touched.
Well, I thought maybe that was because the virus hasn't come to this town yet, though there was a report of one person "self isolating" in town who supposedly tested positive for it.
The next person (who specializes in respiratory care) works in a BIG hospital in a big city. The city has declared a "state of emergency" and reported about 500 cases. She said they had about three patients in the hospital that they "thought" might have the virus. The staff spent a lot of time putting on all their protective coverings when caring for the patients but there were no deaths or critical cases, attributed to it. She excused the lack of activity saying that they just hadn't been hit as hard in this city as people in a city of about equal size further south that had received considerable media coverage in which it sounded like they were being almost overwhelmed.
Also -- I don't personally know ANYONE, anywhere, who has contacted the disease. There were people who did get sick in the last couple months and THOUGHT (or feared) they might have the virus, but two, three days later they were fine.
Yet everyone is fearful, following all sorts of precautions and isolation rules. Well, they say, that's why we aren't seeing any outbreaks -- but people aren't totally staying home, they still shop and some still work. All non-emergency services in hospitals are suspended so staff can look after the coronavirus patients, that don't seem to be there.
How much to believe??? One thing is certain, it is being exaggerated and whipped up to "worst heights" to keep everyone panicky and scared of each other and ready to give up their jobs, and social life "for the supposed good of all". Though I won't go so far as to say the disease isn't real -- every year the flu and pneumonia sickens thousands and kills some of it's victims -- with this years version being a stronger strain so the numbers are a little higher.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 04/06/2002:44 PM
I find when you ask people multiple times to support their stance with facts and they find it unreasonable to state any facts, it's pointless to keep asking them page after page. They just won't do it. Must not be a math/science type of person. Best to ignore them.
I recall reading a science fiction book in highschool. It presented that the "problems" were always far off, so anyone local never knows what the truth is. Interesting that of the people working in the hospitals you know, not much happening.
Did you notice how Gates is getting older? Perhaps he pulled the trigger, that he'd like to see his fearful new world before he dies. This should be a wake up call to all who study their Bible. We know how fast it can happen. We know how much restriction they can put on us. I always thought about moving to another state or country if things got bad where I'm at. But everyone bought into this fraud. There's nowhere to run.
It seems cold and heartless to say just ignore it and go on with life and let people die who die. But we do that every year with the flu, heart disease, alcohol, etc. and no one thinks that is callus. Think of how much damage is being done to healthy people with this "live exercise". How many deaths by suicide, alcohol, heart disease due to this nonsense?
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 04/07/2003:27 AM
Originally Posted by D R
We must be deceived by the thousands of medical workers, that are working with fake COVID 19 patients...
Youtube has videos that prove Area 51 and Aliens are real! Youtube has videos that prove Reptilians rule the world. Youtube has videos that prove Global warming is real. Youtube has videos that prove Global warming is fake. Youtube has videos that prove School shootings are fake.
YES I trust Youtube LOL
Cheers to you all and good luck with your health whether you believe we are in danger of COVID19 or not.
I suspect that you trust the CDC. Here is their table of influenza outcomes for the 2017-2018 flu season in the United States, a developed country. Note that these numbers are based on the traditional per-100,000 population that seems standard for statistics of this nature.
Table 2: Estimated rates of influenza-associated disease outcomes, per 100,000, by age group ? United States, 2017-2018 influenza season
Now, estimating that the United States had a population of around 327 million as of 2018, and projecting these numbers to that entire population, it would result in a mortality of 373,761 souls in total.
We can look at these numbers multiple ways: 1) The news reports were highly inaccurate and underestimated the flu "pandemic" for that period; 2) that many people really did die; 3) the mortality estimates are way overblown; or 4) someone (me?) made a mistake in the math somewhere.
Feel free to verify the math for yourself so as to avoid the #4 error. After that, tell me if the CDC was overestimating, or the news underestimating--if you think you can know which way this should go.
Suppose you determine that the CDC overestimated. Remember that the estimates put forward now say between 100,000 and 400,000 Americans might die of the coronavirus. Now we have two more important considerations:
1) Why is the CDC and/or WHO underestimating the effect of the supposedly far more lethal coronavirus?
2) If the CDC and/or WHO are not underestimating the coronavirus, why has it gotten far more than its fair share of attention?
These are just pure mathematical facts. They are enough to make a doubter of any true follower of the CDC.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 04/08/2004:43 PM
Green, the table above that one, table1, and text estimates 61,099 people died. Do you think the two tables and written explanation contradict each other? Or do you think maybe either the table2's "mortality rate" is something different than you think or that the table or column means something else? I don't know. But I would think the tables should agree. Maybe you could analyze differences between them.
A warning -- His language is a little "bathroom" style language. I did find a copy on You tube, so am sharing it as some of the information could save lives.
A warning -- His language is a little "bathroom" style language. I did find a copy on You tube, so am sharing it as some of the information could save lives.
Mr. Potty Mouth is giving us his own flavor of ?fake news.? He doesn't know what he's talking about. He's recommending that everyone take quinine as the solution to COVID-19. Mrs. White gives us wisdom against such a falsehood.
Originally Posted by Ellen White
Mercury, calomel, and quinine have brought their amount of wretchedness, which the day of God alone will fully reveal. Preparations of mercury and calomel taken into the system ever retain their poisonous strength as long as there is a particle of it left in the system. These poisonous preparations have destroyed their millions, and left sufferers upon the earth to linger out a miserable existence. All are better off without these dangerous mixtures. Miserable sufferers, with disease in almost every form, mis-shapen by suffering, with dreadful ulcers, and pains in the bones, loss of teeth, loss of memory, and impaired sight, are to be seen almost every where. They are victims of poisonous preparations, which have been, in many cases, administered to cure some slight indisposition, which after a day or two of fasting would have disappeared without medicine. But poisonous mixtures, administered by physicians, have proved their ruin. {4aSG 139.2}
The "doctor" in the video speaks error. His mouth is poisonous in more ways than one. I DO NOT recommend that anyone watch it, much less take quinine for anything.
The way to beat COVID-19 is Vitamin C in high amounts--at least 10,000 mg. per day. I sent this advice to a Chinese student of mine who passed it on to a friend of hers who was showing flu symptoms. She emailed me this morning with the following report.
Originally Posted by Chinese lady
A friend of mine who is a Dutch, she lived in here, had some mild symptom of flus 3 weeks ago. She wasn?t able to go home because the whole country was shut down, out of concerned she worried about it a lot. We talked and exchanged informations back then, I told her the prescription you shared (hope you don?t mind), after consulted her family doctor, she took the advice and condition improves! Now she has already went home, healthy and energetic. Thank you!
For clarity, I'll paste below the "prescription" I had sent her.
Originally Posted by Green Cochoa's email to Chinese lady, 9 February 2020
Doctors have found that vitamin C is more effective even than a vaccine, if taken in high doses. Because it is acidic, the stomach can tolerate only a certain amount at a time, but if one gets sick with a virus, taking 2000 mg. of vitamin C every fifteen minutes WITH WATER, will kill the virus. For more serious cases, IV (intravenous) vitamin C can be given in higher dosages, but for most people, just taking some vitamin C, along with water, every few minutes throughout the waking day, will be enough.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 04/09/2005:31 AM
Was EGW talking about quinine itself, or it being present in "poisonous mixture" " Preparations of mercury and calomel" "poisonous preparations" "dangerous mixtures"? Medicines can be dangerous when mixed with other chemicals or misused. Well, if modern scientists use it as part of their new vaccine we may get that mixture!
All I know about quinine is that it basically saved my sister's life when she was a missionary in Africa. It does save people from malaria. I'm glad it was available for her.
However, on further study I do see that, yes, too much of it can damage eye sight and the heart. So a continuous and relatively high ingestion of quinine probably isn't good.
As for the video -- the language is offensive. {Though sadly quite prevalent in the worldly work place)
But what are the facts, I'm not quite ready to simply reject this out of hand?
Yes, both vitamin C and vitamin D are VERY important in fending off viruses such as the Covid virus. (Though you'll find scientists denying that exceedingly high doses will cure Covid-19, and cautioning that too much will cause stomach disorder and diarrhea ) Though I have upped my vitamin C intake as a precaution. And try to sip lemon water throughout the day. That may very well be better than the tonic water suggested as a preventive measure. Following health laws and keeping immune system strong are essential for fending off disease.
But the speaker in the video is not alone in sharing the benefits of quinine against coronavirus-- though it's usually referred to in a different form:
hydroxychloroquine
Quote
"there is a ?great deal of interest globally? in the drug. U.S. President Donald Trump has repeatedly touted hydroxychloroquine. He recently named a French study that suggested the drug plus a common antibiotic called azithromycin might help treat COVID-19," (CTV News)
Hydroxychloroquine is used to treat malaria, lupus erythematosus, and rheumatoid arthritis and has been used to treat Covid=19 in Canada (as well as other countries)
in vitro? experiments conducted using cells have shown that hydroxychloroquine blocks the virus from entering cells. ?Its use in the form of tablets may have positive results in humans infected with the coronavirus,? she explains, which means ?faster recovery times and shorter hospital stays.? (BBV^ April 8,2020)
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 04/09/2006:51 AM
Perhaps this statement will clear up any confusion relative to possible "mixtures."
Originally Posted by Ellen White
Knowledge is what is needed. Drugs are too often promised to restore health, and the poor sick are so thoroughly drugged with quinine, morphine, or some strong health- and life-destroying medicine, that nature may never make sufficient protest, but give up the struggle; and they may continue their wrong habits with hopeful impunity. {15MR 276.2}
No mixture there--just quinine--which is said to be a "strong health- and life-destroying medicine."
I'm not so sure your sister was saved by it. Her body apparently had sufficient reserves to struggle against it.
But let's look at another neglected fact: Malaria is a parasite. It is not a virus. COVID-19 is a virus, not a parasite. These are two totally different things. Any drug (poison) which might be successful treating one cannot be expected to be equally effective with the other. However, any natural medicine which helps to build the immune system should be reasonably expected to help with BOTH.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 04/09/2002:02 PM
Green, why do you think they put mercury in vaccines? To kill everything. So it very well could be that quinine can kill parasites and also disables viruses and any other thing.
Just because a chemical is designed to kill plants doesn't mean it doesn't harm animals, too.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 04/09/2003:27 PM
Originally Posted by kland
Green, why do you think they put mercury in vaccines? To kill everything. So it very well could be that quinine can kill parasites and also disables viruses and any other thing.
Just because a chemical is designed to kill plants doesn't mean it doesn't harm animals, too.
Some things affect one organism without affecting another. There are herbicides that kill plants by altering their hormones and making them grow too fast. They have no effect on animals. Boric acid will kill any insect, even in rather small dosages, but do not equally affect other animals or plants, for which it is actually a trace nutrient. Boiling will destroy many B-vitamins, but not B12. When I said "expected," I meant just that. Unless you have results from an actual study to validate your thesis / theory, there is no presumed expectation possible that something will have the same effect across different kinds of organisms or substances.
If you want to kill everything, just try a bit of Chlorox, I suppose. Or mercury. Or alcohol in toxic dosages. Or....and the list goes on.
Personally, I don't want to kill myself whilst trying to kill something in my body. No chemo for me!
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 04/11/2010:37 PM
Back to actual topic
Should churches close because of the Pandemic?
Well today we had a very nice program with our local church members via the internet technology. Yet, it would have been a lot nicer if we could have been together and seen everyone (not just a few glimpses when one or two clicked the camera on and then off again) I pray we will soon be able to meet together again in a month or so.
The next question -- why has camp meeting been cancelled? It wasn't scheduled for another four and in some place five months -- yet it was already declared as cancelled in March?
Why the haste? Why the presupposition that everyone would spend the whole year in lock down?
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 04/12/2001:21 AM
Originally Posted by dedication
Back to actual topic
Should churches close because of the Pandemic?
Well today we had a very nice program with our local church members via the internet technology. Yet, it would have been a lot nicer if we could have been together and seen everyone (not just a few glimpses when one or two clicked the camera on and then off again) I pray we will soon be able to meet together again in a month or so.
The next question -- why has camp meeting been cancelled? It wasn't scheduled for another four and in some place five months -- yet it was already declared as cancelled in March?
Why the haste? Why the presupposition that everyone would spend the whole year in lock down?
The imposed isolation was supposed to be over by the end of May in Canada. Now we are hearing about 18 more months with a possible recurring Wuhan Flu season every year. This is looking more and more like a power grab with the long term theft of basic human rights. Hopefully everyone is enjoying surrogate video church?
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 04/14/2012:18 PM
Watch this short video. If only such faith was manifest in the Seventh Day Adventist Church. How many hearts and minds would be inspired to consider the Sabbath? While we huddle "securely" before our computer screens, consider: is our fear of pestilence, our fear of government, hindering the delivery of the Three Angels Message? https://youtu.be/Tp4fKm9ijCw
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 04/15/2011:04 PM
Is the pandemic HINDERING the spread of the three angel's message?
Was it going forth while people warmed the pews in their churches every Sabbath, with any greater strength, then it is now, when people tune in to services via computer, or other electronic devises?
This current crises is a BIG wake up call! We still have freedoms -- though we are getting a frightening glimpse of how those freedoms could all disappear suddenly.
Right now -- there is NO enforced threat against proclaiming the gospel and the three angels messages yet. If we are wise we will arose and spread the message, while there is still freedom to do so.
Who knows -- this crises may be the means to get the message out quicker-- as individual churches get into technology that will finally reach the masses who are also "awakened" to more serious thought, thus becoming more responsive during this crises. If and when the "lock-down" lifts, will we realize it's just a lull in the coming storm, and really get to work proclaiming the message? Will we be awake and eager to work harder to reach others? People are praying that we will have a "little more time"
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 04/16/2009:42 AM
Originally Posted by dedication
Is the pandemic HINDERING the spread of the three angel's message?
Was it going forth while people warmed the pews in their churches every Sabbath, with any greater strength, then it is now, when people tune in to services via computer, or other electronic devises?
This current crises is a BIG wake up call! We still have freedoms -- though we are getting a frightening glimpse of how those freedoms could all disappear suddenly.
Right now -- there is NO enforced threat against proclaiming the gospel and the three angels messages yet. If we are wise we will arose and spread the message, while there is still freedom to do so.
Who knows -- this crises may be the means to get the message out quicker-- as individual churches get into technology that will finally reach the masses who are also "awakened" to more serious thought, thus becoming more responsive during this crises. If and when the "lock-down" lifts, will we realize it's just a lull in the coming storm, and really get to work proclaiming the message? Will we be awake and eager to work harder to reach others? People are praying that we will have a "little more time"
It is indeed a warning, if we choose to accept it as such. May we wake to God?s call to His slumbering church in time to utilize the fading light of day, for the night is approaching, swiftly! "The final moves will be rapid ones! There is almost no time!
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 04/16/2011:40 AM
Most of us have seen reports of the abuses of power taking place across the globe in the USA, Canada, Britain, France, Panama, etc,: men being chased by police for the "crime" of jogging on an empty beach or paddling a boat alone and far from shore, couples being threatened for walking their dog in a deserted park, a man being taken away in handcuffs for standing outside of his own home, another man handcuffed and placed in a police cruiser for taking his young children to a vacant playground, people being pulled over and told they are not allowed to travel alone in their car, frightened people informing on their neighbours for celebrating a birthday or wedding.
Worshipping God together, during troublous times, we are told is "not an essential service". Simultaneously, crowds gather at Costco and Walmart. The dollar store on the corner is open. Liquor stores and cannabis shops are busily collecting tax money for the government coffers!
First, we are told that the Wuhan Flu is not a real threat and we should frequent our local china town to combat "racism"; next, we are warned that the virus is killing people by the tens of thousands and will rapidly spread to tens of millions, and it is not safe to go to work, visit our families, worship God in our churches, or even leave our homes! We are shown interviews with doctors and nurses who claim they are being overwhelmed by the number of sick and dying; the following day, video footage from private citizens show these same hospitals almost empty, emergency tents set up for testing and triage are completely deserted.
If you have any doubt that this "pandemic" is a spiritual attack by Satan ask yourself, is God the author of confusion? Does the Good Shepherd sew fear, even panic, among His flock? No, this is the work of the thief who comes to steal and destroy, the roaring lion dividing and seeking whom he may devour. Sunday laws are already being enforced in some nations.
Is the true illness some ambiguous flu from Asia? Or, is there something deeper, something much darker at work? What does the SOP tell us is the source of the vast majority of illnesses: stress, confusion, fear, separation from God! This is the path the world and the church are being herded towards. Certainly, the 3 Angels Messages can and should be spread far and wide via technology. Does this mean we should comply with the fearful decree of the Enemy, manifested through earthly authority, and forsake the physical gathering together for worship and fellowship?
However hyped or downplayed; however, serious or spurious you believe the Wuhan Flu to be, please open your eyes and see that we are being prepared for something...
"Sickness of the mind prevails everywhere. Nine tenths of the diseases from which men suffer have their foundation here." 5T 443.4
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 04/20/2002:17 PM
How do we compare this with what Ellen White wrote about not being defiant of authorities and mowing our lawns on sundays?
Could the idea of keeping people in their homes indeed for our "safety" as they test the G5 frequencies? Supposedly it penetrates buildings, but maybe in the open it causes more harm and they need time to test and tune it so it doesn't harm so much? Anyone see new broadcasting equipment/towers going up?
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 04/20/2002:33 PM
Originally Posted by ProdigalOne
Watch this short video. If only such faith was manifest in the Seventh Day Adventist Church. How many hearts and minds would be inspired to consider the Sabbath? While we huddle "securely" before our computer screens, consider: is our fear of pestilence, our fear of government, hindering the delivery of the Three Angels Message? https://youtu.be/Tp4fKm9ijCw
You know, it's a good thing I'm a christian and..... For I have bad thoughts come to my mind. What about those who aren't and let their thoughts go into action? I'm afraid if they keep extending this experiment, people are going to break.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 04/22/2011:05 PM
There are some really weird things being done.
So far I can still walk around the block for exercise in the fresh air, without fear of being fined.
But it seems there are some who are trying to turn this covid-19 into introducing our countries into police states.
For example: A $700 fine to young teenager who was by himself (no distancing violations, no grouping violation) who was throwing his own basketball through some hoops in a neighborhood park.
People get fined for even sitting ALONE on a park or roadside bench. Don't take your kids to a play park -- you'll get fined. Don't even give food to the homeless -- you'll get fined.
Then there's the matter of urging people to REPORT to authorities anyone who is innocently enjoying some time outside and maybe getting a little too close to another person or touching something. Starting to sound like something we read in history in countries that lost their freedom.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 04/23/2006:08 AM
The weirdest thing I have heard being "justified" by the Wuhan Flu pandemic is what is occurring right now in Jamaica. Prime Minister Andrew Holness is calling for personal ID and bank accounts for every citizen in order to allow the country to quickly transition to a completely digital economy (a cashless economy enabling government control of all Buying And Selling). Holness is also planning to end the multiple days of weekly lockdown and have everything shutdown on only Sundays. This will force Monday - Friday workers to do their shopping on Saturdays (government enforced Mark Of The Beast)!
The weirdest thing about these disturbing events is that Prime Minister Andrew Holness is a graduate of Andrews University, former President of the Jamaican Conference, and a member of the Jamaican religious majority, Seventh Day Adventists...
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 04/23/2009:47 PM
no where to I see the violation of God's law in the video. He is calling Ted Wilson a Jesuit. I won't argue with him as MOST SDA's support Catholic beliefs! Right Daryl/Dedication/ProgdigalOne/Green/...
Andrew Holness is a graduate of St. Catherine High School and of the University of the West Indies, where he pursued a Bachelor of Science in Management Studies and a Master of Science in Development Studies.[4] In 1997 he married Juliet Holness (n?e Landell), an accountant, whom he had met as a student at St. Catherine High School during the 1980s.[5][6] The couple have two children, Adam and Matthew[7]
Holness served as Executive Director at the Voluntary Organization for Uplifting Children from 1994 to 1996 and then joined the Premium Group of Companies, acting as a special assistant to Edward Seaga.
He is a member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.[8]
Following the reference there leads to this news article:
Andrew Michael Holness, a Seventh Day Adventist by faith, was ?sworn-in? by affirmation on Sunday as the Jamaica?s ninth Prime Minister.
In a ceremony at King?s House on Sunday afternoon, the new prime minister did not swear on the bible as is the custom because of his faith. Rather, as is allowed under the constitution, Holness ?declared and affirmed? due allegiance to Jamaica and his intention to carry out his duties as Prime Minister of Jamaica.
He takes over from Bruce Golding who handed in his resignation to the Governor General earlier Sunday afternoon. Holness 39, is the youngest Prime Minister of Jamaica.
And then there is this, apparently published by the Jamaica Observer on the day of his inauguration (the bolded paragraph is interesting):
WHEN Andrew Holness becomes prime minister today he will not have the usual 'honeymoon' traditionally given to political leaders taking over the reins of government for the first time.
Starting with the swearing-in and inaugural address, his every move, word and deed will be closely examined even as we congratulate and extend best wishes to our ninth and youngest-ever prime minister.
Some of the attention is a consequence of the evolving style of political communication in the information age ? an age when citizens demand greater transparency and accountability from leaders and have the technological means to keep tabs on them. It is the age when people care less about the authority that derives from high office and more about what office-holders do with that authority. Honorific titles and vestments do not intimidate people anymore.
But Mr Holness will also be scrutinised because of the unique circumstances that brought him to power; because voters know little of the man and his mettle; because of the enormity of the economic and social problems facing the country; and because of the cynicism of many in the generation of which he is a part.
Bruce Golding, who today officially ends his tenure as prime minister, was forced out by the scandal over his handling of the US request for the extradition of Christopher 'Dudus' Coke, the now self-confessed gangster.
With polls showing Mr Holness as the man best positioned to beat Portia Simpson Miller and the People's National Party, other aspirants for leadership of the governing Jamaica Labour Party (JLP) parked their ambitions to give the party its best chance of winning a second term.
So, in a real sense his elevation to the top job is not a reward for performance but an opportunity to confirm that he has what it takes to lead successfully this complex and contrarian country of ours.
Unless he confounds reason and common sense, Mr Holness will shortly (before year end) call a general election to allow voters to decide whether he is worthy of the trust that his parliamentary colleagues have shown in him.
In making that choice, voters will need to know more about the new leader and where he stands on the crucial issues. Can he deliver the jobs that Mr Golding didn't? Can he deliver good governance? Can he build consensus among stakeholders with different and conflicting interests?
We know that Mr Holness, like PNP leader Simpson Miller, believes that he is the elect of the Almighty who has called him to this office. They, like all of us, have every right to faith and religious beliefs. But I am scared of political leaders who see themselves as being specially called to high service, rather than merely offering themselves for a temporary job circumscribed by the law and the constitution.
Baptism in the fire of tribal politics
The biographical outline is fairly well-known: Andrew Holness was born on July 22, 1972. He attended St Catherine High School and later graduated from the University of the West Indies; he's married and has two children.
After serving as special assistant to former Prime Minister Edward Seaga in his private business, Mr Holness had his first political outing in West Central St Andrew against the PNP's Dr Warren Blake in the December 18, 1997 general election.
That contest would expose the worst features of tribal and garrison politics, with accusations and counter-accusations of fraud, voting irregularities, violence and intimidation.
Indeed, the seat was not settled until mid-1998: First, Mr Holness was declared the winner on the basis that he had secured a majority of the votes cast; next, the court upheld a request for voiding the poll. In a new poll on March 26, 1998 the PNP candidate was declared the winner; but this went back to the Constituted Authority on appeal which ordered a third poll. This took place June 30, 1998, leading to Mr Holness finally taking his seat in Gordon House.
Since then, he has retained the seat by more comfortable margins, but he has reportedly lost ground to PNP standard-bearer Patrick Roberts and is eying the safe JLP garrison constituency of West Kingston.
His choice of where to run could be the first major indicator of whether Mr Holness represents the best hope of a new and different politics ? so crucial to re-engaging the young and the disaffected to civic life ? or whether he is a youthful version of old politics.
Frankly, I hope he remains in West Central, a competitive seat in which he has been able to prevail on the basis of what he brings to the table and what people see in him ? despite the fact that the constituency suffers from the deprivations and neglect that characterise so many inner-city communities, regardless of voting preference.
Going to West Kingston would signal that the best politics is the safety of the garrison where there is no political competition. Worse, he could be trapped in the same vortex that caused Mr Golding's sad and untimely undoing.
Managerial capability
Voters will also want to be satisfied that the new prime minister ? indeed anyone who aspires to lead Jamaica today ? understands the policy implications of the technologically connected world of the 21st century; the global financial crisis that is likely to get worse before it gets better; the shifting power from Euro-American dominance to Asia and how best to secure Jamaica's interest in this new paradigm.
He will also have to demonstrate his managerial competence and decision-making skills. As minister of education for the past four years, he has done a creditable job, though he has not distinguished himself in terms of improved educational outcomes.
On the plus side, Mr Holness embraced the education transformation programme of 2004. This is creditable in a country where ministers and governments are notorious for throwing out everything they find on taking office rather than having the discernment to build on what is good, improve on what needs fixing and discard only that which is worthless.
Strapped for cash like his predecessor, he has not been able to implement the big reforms but has made some progress on some non-cash items like establishing the teacher council to certify practitioners and the national inspectorate to monitor school performance.
But Mr Holness's relationship with the Jamaica Teachers' Association (JTA) was less than stellar as indicated by a troubling managerial style.
His direct intervention against teachers protesting against the appointment of a new principal for Balaclava High; his insistence on retaining Mr Alphansus Davis in the conflicting posts of personal adviser and chairman of the Teachers' Services Commission, and his singling out of three or four schools as 'failing' are examples of wasteful use of political capital and managerial time.
I have no doubt that Mr Holness wanted ? and still wants ? the best for education as the surest means of providing opportunity for all our children to achieve their full potential. He shares that with previous ministers of education. And I have no doubt the JTA is a tough trade union that will resist stoutly when the interests of its members are perceived to be under threat.
Fast-forward to the faltering agreement with the International Monetary Fund which must be addressed quickly to put public finances back into some semblance of order.
Specifically, the Government will have to show that it has the will and the way to reduce the public sector wage bill to agreed levels; that it has enough surplus (after expenses) to reduce the stock of debt by paying down on the principal; that it will reform the tax system to spread the burden equitably while increasing revenue by drastically reducing waivers to some taxpayers.
These are tough measures that are unlikely to be taken until after the next election. In the weeks ahead voters will have to decide which leader/party is better equipped to take and implement the right decisions.
kcr@cwjamaica.com
And then there's the Adventist Today article published here:
March 4, 2016: After the general election last week gave the Jamaica Labour Party 33 of the 63 seats in parliament, the Hon. Andrew Holness was sworn in yesterday as prime minister of the Caribbean nation. He grew up in the Spanish Town Seventh-day Adventist Church and on the Sabbath following the vote attended the Andrew?s Memorial Seventh-day Adventist Church with his wife Juliet, who was also elected to parliament; the first time that spouses have served together in the national legislature.
Holness is 43 years of age and previously served as prime minister in 2011-2012. Prior to that he served as education minister of Jamaica. When he was first sworn in as prime minister on October 23, 2011, he was the youngest person to ever hold the top government position in the country.
The Labour Party in Jamaica is a misnomer in terms of most political parties with that label among Commonwealth nations, sources told Adventist Today. It is the more market-oriented, while the People?s National Party is more socialist. Holness has a background in business with a bachelor?s degree in management and a master?s degree in development from the University of the West Indies.
Holness was a protege of former prime minister Edward Seaga, serving as his special assistant from 1996 to 2000. He first became a member of parliament at age 25 and represents a new generation of leadership in Jamaica.
Adventists currently hold both of the top leadership positions in Jamaica. The Governor General, Sir Patrick Allen, is also an Adventist and a graduate of Andrews University. He was the union conference president in Jamaica, the national leader of the Adventist denomination, when he was appointed by Queen Elizabeth II. He resigned from denominational employment to take office but continues to be an Adventist minister.
Holness did not attend Adventist schools or work for the denomination. He often refers to his working class background and describes himself as pro-business and pro-people. He has said in public speeches, ?I love the poor but I hate poverty.?
According to U.S. State Department information, Adventists constitute the second largest denomination in Jamaica with about 11 percent of the population in the most recent census. A Pentecostal denomination, the Church of God of Prophecy has about a quarter of the population. A number of members of parliament are Adventists.
What I have been unable to confirm is that he ever attended Andrews University. According to the article above, it appears he was never a student in an Adventist school.
Nor have I any knowledge as of yet that his decisions regarding Sunday practices were supported by Elder Ted Wilson. It seems quite possible that the truth has been stretched a bit. Until this is supported by something factual, I think I will relegate it to the "rumor" category.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 04/24/2005:15 AM
My apologies, I was mistaken. Although Prime Minister Holness is a Seventh Day Adventist, it was the Attorney General, Sir Patrick Allen who attended Andrews University and led the Jamaica Conference.
"Adventists currently hold both of the top leadership positions in Jamaica. The Governor General, Sir Patrick Allen, is also an Adventist and a graduate of Andrews University. He was the union conference president in Jamaica, the national leader of the Adventist denomination, when he was appointed by Queen Elizabeth II. He resigned from denominational employment to take office but continues to be an Adventist minister."
"Martin and his church received ?more than 100? hate messages, including several threats of violence, he said in an interview." "Families kept six feet apart and came in limited numbers, and the sanctuary was sanitized between services."
"Martin and his church received ?more than 100? hate messages, including several threats of violence, he said in an interview." "Families kept six feet apart and came in limited numbers, and the sanctuary was sanitized between services."
Strange that no one is doxing the patrons of liquor stores or Walmart...
At least they are starting to allow in person church gatherings. Possibly by June 1. That's sooner then what we are facing. The "not more than 50" restriction -- the large churches would still have a problem, but the smaller ones can work with that. A church with less than 100, could have two services -- one in the morning, one in the afternoon -- divide the membership into two groups. Large churches tend to be more spectator, bench warming services, while meetings of 50 or less tend to be more community, everyone gets involved and feels part of the group type of services, which is what (I believe) we miss most in this lock down time.
Basically -- we need to figure out how to worship together in the best way, within the restrictions. Don't let the restriction destroy worshipping together.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 06/09/2003:05 PM
Originally Posted by Rick H
We voted to open our church this Sabbath, but the Conference says have to wait. Cant the church ignore the Conference is my question and open?
The Banner Elk SDA Chuch in North Carolina are planning on opening their church this Sabbath. They had planned to open last Sabbath, but didn't on account of technical issues with their audio-visual equipment.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 06/10/2001:40 PM
That was an interesting read as I went through all the different posts in this link. One thing for sure is that this virus situation has caused a divide between those who hold different views about its seriousness and the proper reaction to dealing with it. There is so much conflicting information and even that changes from day to day so that the stand we take yesterday might be different than the stand we take tomorrow. Who do we believe? As to churches being closed. In some ways this could be a blessing as hopefully it has caused some who rely totally on the pastor and church fellowship for their spiritual food to do some studying of their own. I say hopefully because I am not sure this is the case. Unfortunately the truth may be closer to people being glad they do not have to wake up early on Sabbath to prepare for church and then having the rest of the day to do what they 'really' wanted to do on Sabbath instead of attending church. Sad but true. But for those who are serious about their faith this may have caused them to consider how easily their freedoms can be taken away and whether they are ready to deal with what is coming in the future. I know this is my experience.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 06/12/2002:16 PM
Originally Posted by Daryl
Originally Posted by Rick H
We voted to open our church this Sabbath, but the Conference says have to wait. Cant the church ignore the Conference is my question and open?
The Banner Elk SDA Chuch in North Carolina are planning on opening their church this Sabbath. They had planned to open last Sabbath, but didn't on account of technical issues with their audio-visual equipment.
Well its not just that, the Conference called the pastor and others and told them that you basically have to put on a full body suit to clean and sanitize and everyone will have to follow all what they want which includes not allowing anyone with small children, and insurance wont cover the churches for this. So it looks like they really wont let churches meet. There really is no way to meet, you would have get geared up like a hospital or get hazmat protection.
Here is some of the things we are seeing..." Would you come back to an in-person church service starting in July, if...
1. Practice Social Distancing throughout church facility 2. Everyone over the age of 3 is required to wear a mask (our praise team and pastor will not be wearing masks while on platform. They will maintain social distancing throughout the service) 3. Touch-less hand soap dispensers in all restrooms 4. Touch-less hand sanitizers throughout the church facility 5. Temperatures taken with touch-less thermometers while attendees remain in their vehicle 6. Attendants to open doors and sanitize handles throughout the worship service 7. No Sabbath School, Potlucks or Communion until further notice 8. Offering will be collects at the doors upon exiting the service, to avoid passing an offering plate. Other options include dropping your tithe envelope in the secure tithe box in the Narthex (lobby) or using the only giving app Tithe.ly. 9. All carpets have been professionally cleaned recently 10. Church will be sanitized after every service. 11. Smaller rooms will be available (with TV to view service) for those that are high-risk (though we encourage all high-risk attendees to remain at home if they do not feel comfortable being in the main worship service).
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 06/15/2008:56 AM
Isn?t it odd that BLM/Antifa protesters are allowed to gather by the thousands in Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary, even a paid group traveling to small towns such as Innisfail, Alberta protested on Saturday June 13! There was no social distancing! The concerns of local residents about out of town protesters gathering in their town during a supposed government lockdown, were dismissed as racist! But, church services are too dangerous... Do you still believe churches should close because of the pandemic?
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 06/19/2007:00 PM
How about churches which require reservations upon reopening?
Imagine a visitor being met at the door, "I'm sorry sir, I don't find you on the reservation list". Last time they'll come to church! Who would have thought, churches being private clubs. Hmmm.... Maybe many...
Masks aren't required, but requested as a courtesy. "I see you are being non-courteous."
Under Governor Newsom?s latest directive, residents of California can engage in protests and riots, but cannot house a Bible Study with a friend or neighbor.
And yes, there are people whose job is ?to oversee and coordinate the efforts to monitor state and local policies and, if necessary, take action to correct them.? In other words -- a home Bible Study group can find themselves raided by police and possibly thrown in prison, OR pay a hefty fine. Seems we've heard about things like that happening in totalitarians countries -- like the former USSR and China.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 07/21/2008:23 PM
I couldn't see anywhere where you couldn't have a friend over for Bible study.
And as an FYI, your statement "Under Governor Newsom?s latest directive, residents of California can engage in protests and riots, but cannot house a Bible Study with a friend or neighbor." was lifted directly from the article and should have quotation marks around it.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 07/22/2003:57 AM
You're right -- "Under Governor Newsom?s latest directive, residents of California can engage in protests and riots, but cannot house a Bible Study with a friend or neighbor." -- was a statement in the article --
So can't understand why you didn't see this new directive forbids home Bible Study groups, and if someone hosting such a group in that area, can find themselves raided by police and possibly thrown in prison, OR pay a hefty fine.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 07/24/2011:12 AM
This stat is not specific to SDA. However, it is some food for thought as to the fruit of church closures encouraged by our leaders, due to the so called pandemic.
"Researchers from the Barna Group has found that one out of three regular church-goers ceased joining church services since the pandemic forced congregations to forsake in-person gatherings."
Doesn't that mean masks don't work? Either they work or they don't. And that statement means they don't. I can understand the hand washing, but maintaining distance if the mask protects you?
If someone should say, masks AND distance protects others, ask if they think people who have the full blown disease should be allowed out and about as long as they have a mask and maintain distance? That will show what they really think about mask protection.
Quote
Non-medical, fabric masks are being used by many people in public areas, but there has been limited evidence on their effectiveness and WHO does not recommend their widespread use among the public for control of COVID-19. However, for areas of widespread transmission, with limited capacity for implementing control measures and especially in settings where physical distancing of at least 1 metre is not possible ? such as on public transport, in shops or in other confined or crowded environments ? WHO advises governments to encourage the general public to use non-medical fabric masks.
Fabric masks don't work, but it's all we've got so do so anyway. Vaccines don't work, but it's all we've got so do so anyway.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 07/24/2003:52 PM
Originally Posted by dedication
You're right -- "Under Governor Newsom?s latest directive, residents of California can engage in protests and riots, but cannot house a Bible Study with a friend or neighbor." -- was a statement in the article --
So can't understand why you didn't see this new directive forbids home Bible Study groups, and if someone hosting such a group in that area, can find themselves raided by police and possibly thrown in prison, OR pay a hefty fine.
Because the person who wrote the article did. The Gov says it nowhere. However, there is a limit to the number of people in a group. That's fine.
Doesn't that mean masks don't work? Either they work or they don't. And that statement means they don't. I can understand the hand washing, but maintaining distance if the mask protects you?
If someone should say, masks AND distance protects others, ask if they think people who have the full blown disease should be allowed out and about as long as they have a mask and maintain distance? That will show what they really think about mask protection.
Quote
Non-medical, fabric masks are being used by many people in public areas, but there has been limited evidence on their effectiveness and WHO does not recommend their widespread use among the public for control of COVID-19. However, for areas of widespread transmission, with limited capacity for implementing control measures and especially in settings where physical distancing of at least 1 metre is not possible ? such as on public transport, in shops or in other confined or crowded environments ? WHO advises governments to encourage the general public to use non-medical fabric masks.
Fabric masks don't work, but it's all we've got so do so anyway. Vaccines don't work, but it's all we've got so do so anyway.
"Rarely" is no more justification for mandatory masking of an entire population, than is "cannot".
I believe all of the waffling self contradictory claims by the WHO are simply intended to contribute to the general Babylonian state of confusion. A constant state of confusion weakens reasoning abilities and makes the population far easier to manipulate.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 08/21/2002:23 AM
Here is some food for thought in answer to the question asked in the title of this thread:
"If churches agree that they should close down now, it is inevitable that this will happen over and over again as new issues arise in which there is a hint of "emergency." Rather than having a recognized autonomy, churches that silently acquiesce are in danger of submitting themselves to the pleasure of the state. Those churches that shut down, and there may be good reason for them to choose to remain closed, must make it clear that it is their own congregational choice to do so ? not one that was imposed by state regulators. Church governing bodies, such as boards of directors, should vote on the matter and make the decision to close for themselves ? not leave it up to the government. It should never progress to the place where churches are fined and pastors arrested for practicing their faith because they allowed the state to tell them what religious practices are "legitimate" or "permissible." Although churches may reach the same conclusions regarding closing for now, it is their decision and theirs alone, not the choice of politicians who have long salivated over the prospect of bringing churches under their control and submission."
This is religious persecution--- plain and simple! His crime is holding worship services. Placed in highly guarded prison where the worst of criminals are kept No parole unless he promises to stop having church services.
Where is this? China? NO -- this is Canada, Edmonton, Alberta.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 02/20/2104:52 AM
The concept of separation between church and state is said to be still in place, but it is rationalized.
Primer Kenny announced that this is not restricting religion. He said preachers can preach all they want and people can meet in church, BUT they have to meet the health guidelines, if they don't they are liable for state enacted penalties.
However those guidelines say only 15% of church capacity can attend. That means a 400 member church, probably less than 60 of those members could attend. What about the other 340 members who aren't allowed to meet for worship? Who is going say which members can come and which have to stay home, and what do you tell visitors?
Our little church is limited to 12 people. So people stay home to avoid covid, or "to allow room for others" Often only 4 or 5 actually show up. Our church service is a far cry from what used to be.
We are not free to meet in church for services in the true sense of the word.
James Coatas and his staff, didn't turn people away that arrived at church --every week they were way over the 15% capacity the health guidelines mandated.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 02/20/2112:03 PM
We are allowed up to 50% in Nova Scotia, which means we can have up to 56 people, which isn't a problem, as our average attendance before Covid-19 was between 25-30.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 03/13/2103:00 PM
Open? Well yes, but in Canada they limit and control capacity limits. Which means most of the churches are still closed by choice, because most people aren't allowed to attend if the "limit" is observed. The pastor of an evangelical church who defied the capacity law is still in jail in Edmonton, (Alberta set a 15% capacity limit) because he said he won't enforce the capacity law in his church with has a large active membership. His church continued to meet without him, so now they are summoned to court as well.
Is a church really "open" if only a fraction of the members are allowed in?
Some churches with huge buildings and tiny congregations don't have a big problem as their membership is already below the building's capacity, some with slightly larger membership are coping by having two services and dividing the members between the two services, but many of the churches with larger membership are still closed because turning away members once capacity is reached is too problematic.
This is religious persecution--- plain and simple! His crime is holding worship services. Placed in highly guarded prison where the worst of criminals are kept No parole unless he promises to stop having church services.
Where is this? China? NO -- this is Canada, Edmonton, Alberta.
Posted the above earlier concerning the GraceLife Church in Edmonton, which refused to follow the 15% capacity limit of people allowed to worship in their church.
Story is getting interesting.
First -- authorities thought they could stop the church members from meeting by imprisoning the pastor. BUT The church members simply met without their pastor and had their church service (still going well above the 15% allowed by my health officials to enter the church)
So the pastor was released (with fines) And the church was physically barricaded and shut down by police. Last Sunday there was a big protest.
This strong resistance is rather unusual compared to Alberta's general compliance to all the mandates. But obviously resistance is growing!
Alberta is going back to PHASE ONE of Covid restrictions, and yes, so many are crushed by the news. Even some people in government protested. After the province announced last week that it would reinstate harsher pandemic restrictions, 16 MLAs signed a letter of protest. They are under heavy pressure to "recant".
The plan: "Enforce the rules so that even if people aren't agreeing with them, they have a reason to obey them."
And yes, a relative of mine crossed the border from the USA into Canada -- and "oh my" it's crazy !!!!
Detained at the border for one day till Covid test results arrive. He was lucky it was only one day! (The test results were negative) Told to quarantine at home for 14 days. (Which was expected) Has to report EVERY DAY, throughout those 14 days to authorities. Has to take the Covid test again after 7 days, and again after the 14 days. Threatened, if he doesn't do all these things the fine is $75,000.00
Ya, that's right -- 75 THOUSAND dollars.
His chances of getting covid (which were about nil) went up exponentially with this crazy regime,
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 04/16/2111:22 AM
Originally Posted by dedication
Open? Well yes, but in Canada they limit and control capacity limits. Which means most of the churches are still closed by choice, because most people aren't allowed to attend if the "limit" is observed. The pastor of an evangelical church who defied the capacity law is still in jail in Edmonton, (Alberta set a 15% capacity limit) because he said he won't enforce the capacity law in his church with has a large active membership. His church continued to meet without him, so now they are summoned to court as well.
Is a church really "open" if only a fraction of the members are allowed in?
Some churches with huge buildings and tiny congregations don't have a big problem as their membership is already below the building's capacity, some with slightly larger membership are coping by having two services and dividing the members between the two services, but many of the churches with larger membership are still closed because turning away members once capacity is reached is too problematic.
Did you catch the framing in the government funded CBC article? The first line accuses protestors of trespassing on First Nation land! ?GraceLife church states its congregants were not at the rally as protesters trespass on adjacent First Nation?. Never mind the 3 acre property of the church being triple fenced off by RCMP!
For a less biased information source than any of the government funded Canadian MSM, people should take a look at Rebel News. https://youtu.be/-L0DKFOTops
Dedication, your relative is fortunate not to have been detained at one of the infamous quarantine hotels.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 05/05/2101:11 PM
Some states in the USA may be getting more relaxed but up in Canada the lock downs are tightening. According to the news we are in the grips of huge spike (though I don't know anyone who has covid)
Children are reported to be getting the sickness -- But I wonder if it isn't the mask wearing that is causing that. Kids wearing masks all day in school. They constantly touch that mask transferring all the germs their hands pick up into the mask and then breathing that polluted air into their lungs all day while access to good fresh air is with held.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 05/07/2105:36 PM
Oh, but the new restrictions make perfect sense!!! (NOT)
Inside church gatherings are now limited to 15 people. Unless one of them is dead and then it is limited to 10 people. And outdoor gatherings (where its actually the safest) is limited to 5 people!
Schools are all closed just days before Mother's Day. Want to make sure all mother's are made fully aware they are mothers?
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 05/07/2111:49 PM
Interesting, this coronavirus. It only spreads in gatherings above 15 people, but if one is dead, then it spreads above 10! And now it's changed to spreading more so outdoors than indoors.
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 05/08/2112:32 PM
Originally Posted by dedication
Oh, but the new restrictions make perfect sense!!! (NOT)
Inside church gatherings are now limited to 15 people. Unless one of them is dead and then it is limited to 10 people. And outdoor gatherings (where its actually the safest) is limited to 5 people!
Schools are all closed just days before Mother's Day. Want to make sure all mother's are made fully aware they are mothers?
Re: Should Churches Close Because Of Pandemic? - 05/14/2102:07 PM
That's in Canada. There was a bit of a "spike" and they announced stiffer lockdowns with heavier fines till the end of May. Now the push is on for everyone to get the vaccine.
