Evidence Of The Bible Regarding Accuracy & Infallibility

Posted By: Daryl

Evidence Of The Bible Regarding Accuracy & Infallibility - 05/29/03 03:14 AM

Does the information in the Bible need to be completely accurate in order for it to be the Infallible Word of God?

Are there any inaccuracies in the Bible?

If yes, what are the inaccuracies?

If yes, do these inaccuracies affect the Infallibility of the Bible?

If there are not any inaccuracies, then the above questions are irrelevant.

Posted By: Learning

Re: Evidence Of The Bible Regarding Accuracy & Infallibility - 05/29/03 04:34 AM

"Some look to us gravely and say, 'Don't you think there might have been some mistake in the copyist or in the translators?' this is all probable [Did Mrs. White actually say that it is probable that there are mistakes in the Bible?!]and the mind that is so narrow that it will hesitate and stumble over this possibility or probability would be just as ready to stumble over the mysteries of the Inspired Word, . . . All the mistakes will not cause trouble to one soul, or cause any feet to stumble, that would not manufacture difficulties from the plainest revealed truth." 1SM16

It sounds to me as if those who say it si impossible for there to be any errors in the Bible reject Mrs. White.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Evidence Of The Bible Regarding Accuracy & Infallibility - 05/29/03 05:33 PM

The Bible contains what I like to call inspired discrepancies. God could have prevented them but He allowed them for a good reason. The salvation truth is infallible, but there are certain minute and minor details that do not agree. For example:

Matthew
26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

Mark
14:30 And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, [even] in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.

Luke
22:34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

John
13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

Posted By: Darius

Re: Evidence Of The Bible Regarding Accuracy & Infallibility - 05/29/03 10:53 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
The Bible contains what I like to call inspired discrepancies. God could have prevented them but He allowed them for a good reason.

Or because the entire nature needs discrepancies to function. Mathematics is probably the most rigid of the sciences yet it contains important "inconsistencies." Think of zero and infinity. These are two illogical concepts. It is no wonder that there are no Roman numerals for them. Zero does not exist. It is an arbitrary point. Infinity does not exist because if you divide infinity by infinity the answer is not 1, as one would expect, but infinity. Yet, without those two ideas much of our understanding of the universe would be lost.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Evidence Of The Bible Regarding Accuracy & Infallibility - 05/30/03 05:18 PM

Are you suggesting biblical inconsistencies are unavoidable? Was God incapable of overseeing the Bible in such a way it contains no discrepancies?

Posted By: Darius

Re: Evidence Of The Bible Regarding Accuracy & Infallibility - 05/31/03 06:22 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Are you suggesting biblical inconsistencies are unavoidable? Was God incapable of overseeing the Bible in such a way it contains no discrepancies?

I'm saying that if He were managing the project there would be no inconsistencies. He did not interfere with the project because it could do no harm. As He has said, "My sheep know my voice." He did not say, "My sheep know where in the Bible to find my instructions."

Posted By: Darius

Re: Evidence Of The Bible Regarding Accuracy & Infallibility - 05/31/03 06:24 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Are you suggesting biblical inconsistencies are unavoidable? Was God incapable of overseeing the Bible in such a way it contains no discrepancies?

More to the point, I am saying that conflict is a part of nature. For example, self-government is an integral part of our nature, yet we can make no marked progress unless we submit to external government.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Evidence Of The Bible Regarding Accuracy & Infallibility - 05/31/03 06:31 AM

One of the fundamental errors by those who refute the Bible is that they usually resort to intellectual, and polemical arguments; and the Bible is not even written from a purely intellectual point of view.

Two Mormon missionaries came to me one day for a sceduled study. They told me they had found a list of errors in the Bible; and thay wanted to enighten me.

I asked them if they would first listen to something I had to say. They agreed.

I said: "I needed help; and I found it in Jesus." (8T 321)

I told them how this happened; (briefly!), and then I said: "I found the Bible to be the voice of God to my soul." (8T321)

"In Christ, the hunger of my soul has been satisfied," (8T 321), and that "I believe in Jesus, because he is to me a divine Savior." (8T 321). When we, as a people, or as individuals can thus connect Christ to the Scriptures, it is pretty hard to argue against.

Incidentally, both of those young men left my place with copies of The Great Controversy in their hands.

The Bible challenges the intellect by "faith," and by "divine revelation." "Intellect" is going to lose everytime. [Smile]

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Evidence Of The Bible Regarding Accuracy & Infallibility - 05/31/03 06:39 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
I'm saying that if He were managing the project there would be no inconsistencies. He did not interfere with the project because it could do no harm. As He has said, "My sheep know my voice." He did not say, "My sheep know where in the Bible to find my instructions." [/QB]

Darius

You have stated several things about God's Word, that seem geared to disproving it; and yet, you have made some statements about God, that seem "authoritative." May I ask where you get your authority from? How do you personally decide what to believe about God? What source/s do you use to reach your conclusions?

Jesus actually does say that His sheep know where in the Bible to find His instructions; and i will be happy to show you where, next post. [Smile]

Posted By: Darius

Re: Evidence Of The Bible Regarding Accuracy & Infallibility - 05/31/03 06:42 AM

quote:
Originally posted by DavidTBattler:
One of the fundamental errors by those who refute the Bible is that they usually resort to intellectual, and polemical arguments; and the Bible is not even written from a purely intellectual point of view.

One of the fundamentaly errors made by many is to set up strawmen then knock them down. Will you please identify the individual or individuals here who are refuting the Bible? Further, I am disappointed that you think such a selective sample means anything. Have you heard of those who read the Bible and led many to premature deaths? The Bible is useful because of God, not the other way around.

Posted By: Darius

Re: Evidence Of The Bible Regarding Accuracy & Infallibility - 05/31/03 06:45 AM

quote:
Originally posted by DavidTBattler:
Darius

You have stated several things about God's Word, that seem geared to disproving it; and yet, you have made some statements about God, that seem "authoritative." May I ask where you get your authority from? How do you personally decide what to believe about God? What source/s do you use to reach your conclusions?

It should tell you something that when I write I continue to express my faith in the authority of the Bible, yet your kneejerk reaction is to see a seeming attempt to disprove it. Why is that? Could it be that you have raised the Bible to the level of deity? The Bible is not a God. It is an instrument.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Evidence Of The Bible Regarding Accuracy & Infallibility - 05/31/03 12:47 AM

Darius, good point. I did a WOP for a SDA academy last year and I held up a Bible and asked, If Jesus was standing next to me in person right now which one would you say is Jesus - the Bible or Jesus Himself? Fortunately the majority answered Jesus, but there was a minority who insisted both are Jesus. It really disturbed them that a pastor would suggest the Bible isn't Jesus itself (himself).

Here's an interesting thought to ponder - The Bible teaches that the former things of sin will not enter our minds in the New Earth. This suggests that the Bible will undergo some serious editing so that the Bible as we now know it will cease to exist. I wonder if the inspired discrepancies will be corrected???

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Evidence Of The Bible Regarding Accuracy & Infallibility - 05/31/03 04:41 AM

"yet your kneejerk reaction is to see a seeming attempt to disprove it"

Darius [Thank You]

This is a legitimate concern; yet, I wonder how you see such motive out of a one time, and short post from someone you never met?

I have no way of knowing if you are personally trying to disprove the Bible; and I have no desire to find out, one way or the other. [Smile]

I hope we can bear with one another here, and remember that what is written here would be different, if we were in person. I do not see where you have yet come right out and told us where you get your authority from, in determining, and proclaiming who God is; and what he is about. While you did say a generalized statement regarding how your posts were "supportive" of the Bible; you have not really answered that question directly.

Now that you have brought it up tho, some of your statements here do seem as tho they are casting doubt on the inspiration/and/or authority of Scripture. And, you are right, some of your statements do the opposite.

I am stating my opinions only on what you write & how it is written; and not on your motives here.

I am willing to take your word that you are not trying to discredit the Bible, and my statements here have been to say what I think, when I see someone trying to cast doubt on the Bible, as this seems to be the topic of discussion here.

There have been many "studies" and "debates" regarding whether Jesus is actually the Word; and I personally see such discussions as unnecessary to Christianity. If one really knew the Bible, I am not sure why such a question would even occur.

If someone expresses trust in the Bible; and a resulting faith in Jesus Christ;I see it as a very narrow view, to say that such a person is "deifying" the Bible. [Heart]

The way we learn to know God from the Bible differs from all other methods of acquiring knowledge. We cannot place ourselves above God and treat Him as an object to be analyzed and quantified. In our search for a knowledge of God we must submit to the authority of His self-revelation--the Bible. Since the Bible is its own
interpreter, we must subject ourselves to the principles and methods it provides. Without these Biblical guidelines we cannot know God.

Why did so many of the people of Jesus' day fail to see God's self-revelation in Jesus? Because they refused to subject themselves to the guidance of the Holy Spirit through the Scriptures, they misinterpreted God's message and crucified their Saviour.

Their problem was not one of intellect. It was their closed hearts that darkened their minds, resulting in eternal loss.

[ May 31, 2003, 05:02 AM: Message edited by: DavidTBattler ]

Posted By: djconklin

Re: Evidence Of The Bible Regarding Accuracy & Infallibility - 06/07/03 04:28 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Darius:

quote:
Originally posted by DavidTBattler:
One of the fundamental errors by those who refute the Bible is that they usually resort to intellectual, and polemical arguments; and the Bible is not even written from a purely intellectual point of view.
One of the fundamentaly errors made by many is to set up strawmen then knock them down. Will you please identify the individual or individuals here who are refuting the Bible? Further, I am disappointed that you think such a selective sample means anything. Have you heard of those who read the Bible and led many to premature deaths? The Bible is useful because of God, not the other way around.

There are literally dozens of forums on which one can find Bible critics. I spent a couple of years on one at AOL. On another forum when the critic started to lose the argument (which was fairly quickly) he resorted to swearing as tactic.

It was from being on those forums that I learned (for the first time!) that the Bible teaches that unicorns exist, that PI=3, and that turtles have a voice.

Posted By: StanMcCluskey

Re: Evidence Of The Bible Regarding Accuracy & Infallibility - 06/07/03 05:37 PM

quote:
"Man is fallible, but God's word is infallible." EGW in RH 12-15-1885.

As a people, we have always followed the basic guideline of comparing scripture with scripture, in the same way NT writers have done in their references to the OT.

Why? Because our INfallible God spoke to fallible people through fallible men who used their own words to express the thoughts and visions given to them by God.

It is the Bible in its entirety that is infallible.

quote:
"For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little." Isaiah 28:10.

This is not to belittle specific verses. Jesus obviously thought highly of specific OT statements, when He said such things as,

quote:
"but that the scripture may be fulfilled" and "the scripture cannot be broken." John 13:18; 6:35.

It's usually man's wrong interpretations of scripture that causes problems:

quote:
"We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed." EGW in RH 7-26-1892.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Evidence Of The Bible Regarding Accuracy & Infallibility - 06/08/03 06:34 AM

Inspired fallible people wrote the Bible and spoke the words of God. There is a huge difference between fallible people and inspired fallible people. They were not confused or uncertain when they recorded the inspired thoughts of God. The Scriptures accurately reflect the salvation truth as it is in Jesus.

Mark
13:11 But when they shall lead [you], and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians
14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Galatians
1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

2 Peter
1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Revelation
22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

Posted By: StanMcCluskey

Re: Evidence Of The Bible Regarding Accuracy & Infallibility - 06/08/03 07:30 AM

Mike,

I find it necessary to "compare scripture with scripture" in order to find meaning in the following verses written nearly 2,000 years ago:

quote:
1 John 2
18 Little children, IT IS THE LAST TIME: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby WE KNOW THAT IT IS THE LAST TIME.

Hebrews 1
2 Hath IN THESE LAST DAYS spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.

1 Peter 1
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest IN THESE LAST TIMES for you.

Posted By: StanMcCluskey

Re: Evidence Of The Bible Regarding Accuracy & Infallibility - 06/08/03 07:05 PM

Christ called John the Baptist a great prophet; but look at what John said to those who came to hear his message:

quote:
Luke 3:15-17 niv
The people were waiting expectantly and were all wondering in their hearts if John might possibly be the Christ.
John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

But John "DID NOT UNDERSTAND the nature of Christ's kingdom. HE EXPECTED Jesus to take the throne of David," so "HE HAD DECLARED to the people" WRONG INFORMATION:

quote:
Like the Saviour's disciples, John the Baptist DID NOT UNDERSTAND the nature of Christ's kingdom. HE EXPECTED Jesus to take the throne of David; and as time passed, and the Saviour made no claim to kingly authority, John became perplexed and troubled. HE HAD DECLARED to the people that IN ORDER FOR THE WAY TO BE PREPARED before the Lord, THE PROPHECY OF ISAIAH MUST BE FULFILLED (repeat: "MUST BE FULFILLED"); THE MOUNTAINS AND HILLS MUST BE BROUGHT LOW, THE CROOKED MADE STRAIGHT, AND THE ROUGH PLACES PLAIN. HE HAD LOOKED FOR THE HIGH PLACES OF HUMAN PRIDE AND POWER TO BE CAST DOWN. HE HAD POINTED TO THE MESSIAH AS THE ONE WHOSE FAN WAS IN HIS HAND, AND WHO WOULD THOROUGHLY PURGE HIS FLOOR, who would gather the wheat into His garner, AND BURN UP THE CHAFF WITH UNQUENCHABLE FIRE. Like the prophet Elijah, in whose spirit and power he had come to Israel, HE LOOKED FOR THE LORD TO REVEAL HIMSELF AS A GOD THAT ANSWERETH BY FIRE.
Ellen G. White in Desire of Ages, p. 215.

Note that this fallible prophet was inspired by our INfallible God. Yet he "DID NOT UNDERSTAND," so WHAT "HE EXPECTED" WAS IN ERROR and (this is important) THE INFORMATION HE "HAD DECLARED to the people" WAS IN ERROR.

And that is precisely why we must look at the Bible IN ITS ENTIRETY when we say that it is THE INFALLIBLE WORD OF GOD. This is why the instruction in Isaiah 28:10 is so important for us as we seek to understand God's Word:

quote:
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little. Isaiah 28:10.

What John the Baptist expected at Christ's FIRST coming will be fulfilled in our day:

quote:
The days of purification of the church are hastening on space. God will have a people pure and true. In the mighty sifting soon to take place, we shall be better able to measure the strength of Israel. The signs reveal that the time is near when the Lord will manifest that his fan is in his hand, and that he soon will thoroughly purge his floor.
EGW in RH 1-11-1887.

Compare with Christ's own helpful explanation in Matthew 13:36-43.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Evidence Of The Bible Regarding Accuracy & Infallibility - 06/14/03 08:59 PM

Stan, the Bible accurately records the message John proclaimed. There was no error in recording the wrong message John preached. The same can be said of the Millerite Movement as recorded in Rev 10.

But I agree with you that the Bible contains inspired discrepancies. God could have prevented them, but He did not. The discrepancies concern certain insignificant details and do not in any way effect the salvation truth as it is in Jesus. On this I'm sure we agree. Thank you Jesus.