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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #194411
08/24/21 12:05 PM
08/24/21 12:05 PM
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Karen Y  Offline OP
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There were a few prophets who saw the throne of God in the OT time.
Daniel, Isaiah and Ezekiel described the throne room and what they saw in Daniel 7, Isaiah 6, Ezekiel 1 and 10. We observe the four living creatures and the thousands and ten thousand angels but no description of 24 Elders. I would think that if the 24 Elders have much of the significant role to play in the plan of redemption for humanity-as we see in Revelation, God would have written somewhere in the OT about them as well.

Indeed, a symbol of the 24 Elders which represented in the sanctuary service as a sheaf-wave. The convocation is written in Lev. 23:10-14;

"Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:

And he shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the Lord.

And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the Lord for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.

And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings."

It is so biblical to believe that the 24 Elders are a group of the first-fruits that Jesus "captivity captive" when He ascended to heaven:

Eph. 4:8 "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."

The 24 Elders could not have sat down first before Jesus' ascension. We have to remember that Chap. 4-5 are not supposed to be divided in a historical timeline but should be seen as a whole vision. Apostle John is just describing things one by one as he notices.

The 24 Elders have crowns of gold on their heads.
Biblically, the crowns are promised for overcomers.

Notice, 1) a crown of righteousness
2) a crown of glory
3) a crown of life

2 Tim. 4:8 "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

1 Pet. 5:4 "And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away."

James 1:12 "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him."

King wears crown; king sits on throne; king has his kingdom territory.

Jesus made us kings and priests (Rev. 1:6).

Angels are the ministering spirits for the heirs of salvation, and they never made to sit on the throne. See Heb. 1-2.

Unf?llen beings are sons of God but they were never given a throne. See Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7.

The earth is given to humanity and when the earth restored, we shall reign on the earth. The cursed ground (Gen 3:17) shall become "the throne of God" (Rev. 22:3).

Rev. 22:3, "And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him."

The 24 Elders sing a new song, which is a redemption song:

Rev. 5:9-10, "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

144,000 sing a new song: "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth" (Rev. 14:3).

Only the redeemed ones can sing a new song, which is substantiated by these two texts. If so, the 24 Elders have to be human, not unfallen beings.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #194420
08/28/21 08:52 AM
08/28/21 08:52 AM
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Karen Y  Offline OP
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Jesus promised to those who overcome shall be granted to sit on the throne of God:

Rev. 3:21 "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

When New Jerusalem comes down to earth, the throne of God will be here on the earth, which means the earth will become the center of the universe. The cursed ground from Genesis ( Gen. 3:17) will become the throne of God (Rev. 22:3).

Gen. 3:17b "cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life"
Rev. 22:3 "And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:"

Un-fallen beings are not made to live on the earth "for ever and ever" as God purposed from the creation. They are sons of God in the cosmic world and their home is out there.

In Rev Chap 4-5, the representatives of un-fallen beings, namely every creature (Rev. 5:13; Heb. 12: 23), stand after the rank of the myriads of the angels.

Rev. 5:13 "And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."

Another distinguishing truth I find is that 24 Elders and 144,000 have harps and sing "a new song" of redemption that no one can sing but only redeemed humanity.

Rev. 5:8-10 "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

Rev. 15:2-4 "And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest."

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #194421
08/28/21 11:09 AM
08/28/21 11:09 AM
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TheophilusOne  Online Content
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Stephen Bohr believes that Jesus is not there in Rev 4, but comes in Rev 5 with all of the angels.

1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


Who are mentioned here? ONE on the throne, Spirits of God ,24 Elders and beasts. They are all praising God as Creator, not as Redeemer.

He (Bohr) believes the 24 Elders are representatives of other planets. Those are unfallen worlds, and their reps were given crowns.

When you get Chapter 5, the Lamb is there with the angels.

Rev 5 1-4

"1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon."


At that time, no one, even,in Heaven could open the book.

Then the Lamb appears :

"And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.


And this chapter mentions the angels, thousands and thousands which were not mentioned in chapter 4.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #194422
08/29/21 06:51 PM
08/29/21 06:51 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian

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From my own studying, etc. I am thinking that the 24 Elders are those from this earth that were taken up to heaven, such as, Enoch, Moses, Elijah, and also those who were resurrected when Christ was resurrected and were also taken to heaven with Him. These could all constitute the 24 Elders, as there could have been 21 of them taken to heaven to join the 3 others there to make up the 24 Elders.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #194432
09/01/21 08:13 AM
09/01/21 08:13 AM
K
Karen Y  Offline OP
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Active Member 2022

Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 405
Michigan, US
According to the Scripture, the 24 Elders resurrected when Jesus conquered the death and the hades.

Matt. 27:51-52 "And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

Enoch, Moses, and Elijah were already in heaven before the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The 24 Elders represent "a sheaf of the first-fruits" of the harvest in Lev. 23:9-11, and Jesus took them to heaven to wave the sheaf, in other words, to offer them unto God when He resurrected from the tomb.

Eph. 4:8 "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."

The 24 Elders are "gifts unto men," which means they are in the courts of heaven to represent the humanity where the judgment of us is going on right now.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #194441
09/03/21 10:32 PM
09/03/21 10:32 PM
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TheophilusOne  Online Content
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The scriptures are non specific about the amount of resurrected people.

"Eph. 4:8 "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men." I think the gifts are the spiritual
gifts. The 24 elders do not need to represent us. Christ does that.

! think the point Bohr makes about Christ not present in Rev 4 and returning in Revelation 5 has a lot of validity


.
Only one on the throne being worshiped as Creator. The redeemer appears in 5 and opens the scroll.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #194445
09/04/21 06:02 PM
09/04/21 06:02 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian

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Nova Scotia, Canada
The following is from the book, "Daniel and the Revelation" by Uriah Smith regarding the four and twenty elders:

The Four and Twenty Elders. - The question once proposed to John concerning a certain company, has frequently arisen concerning these four and twenty elders: "Who are these? and whence came they?" It will be observed that they are clothed in white raiment, and have on their heads crowns of gold, which are tokens both of a conflict completed and a victory gained. From this we conclude that they were once participants in the Christian warfare, once trod, in common with all saints, this earthly pilgrimage, but have overcome; and for some good purpose, in advance of the great multitude of the redeemed, are wearing their victor crowns in the heavenly world.

Indeed, they plainly tell us as much as this in the song of praise which they, in connection with the four living beings, ascribe to the Lamb, in the 9th verse of the following chapter: "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation."

This song is sung before any of the events in the prophecy of the seven seals transpire; for it is sung to set forth the worthiness of the Lamb to take the book and to open the seals, on the ground of what he had already accomplished, which was their redemption. It is not, therefore, thrown in here by anticipation, having its application in the future; but it expresses an absolute and finished fact in the history of those who sang it.

These, then, were a class of redeemed persons, - redeemed from this earth, redeemed as all others must be redeemed, by the precious blood of Christ.

Do we in any other place read of such a class of redeemed ones? - We think Paul refers to the same company when he writes to the Ephesians thus: "Wherefore he saith, When he [Christ} ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men." The marginal reading is, he led a "multitude of captives." Eph.4:8.

Going back to the events that occurred in connection with the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ, we read: "And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." Matt.27:52,53.

Thus the answer to our question comes back, gathered unmistakably from the sacred page. These are some of those who came out of their graves at the resurrection of Christ, and who were numbered with the illustrious multitude which he led up from the captivity of Death's dark domain when he ascended in triumph on high.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #194454
09/07/21 03:08 PM
09/07/21 03:08 PM
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TheophilusOne  Online Content
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Daryl,
The problem with that is that in Revelation 4, God is being praised as Creator, not redeemer.
If you look at rev 5, that is while Jesus and the angels appear. They are not spoken about in Rev 4. God is alone on His throne.

It could have been these, who may have been excited for Jesus return.
Job 1:6 "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord."
i still believe the gifts to men refers to the outpouring of the Spirit, and the gifts given to assist the gospel being preached to men.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #194456
09/09/21 10:11 AM
09/09/21 10:11 AM
K
Karen Y  Offline OP
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The 24 Elders sing a new song:

"...we shall reign on the earth" (Rev. 5:10).
If they are not the group of redeemed saints as a first-fruit (Lev. 23:17), they have no right to say or sing that "we shall reign on the earth."

This earth is given to humanity in God's creation, never for any un-fallen being in the universe. They have no right to sit on the throne of God, but we, who are redeemed by the blood of Christ, shall be granted to sit on the throne as Jesus overcame and sat on the throne of his Father (Rev. 3:21).

According to Ezek. 8:16, twenty-four men plus a high priest (25 men) are mentioned in the inner court of the Lord's house. They are performing abominable things in the temple of the Lord, for they worshipping the sun.

"And he brought me into the inner court of the Lord's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.

Nonetheless, the 24 Elders plus Jesus in the heavenly courts stand before the throne of God, which parallels, the twenty-five men, dealing with our case "which must be," necessarily, to occur as a pre-advent judgment event.

While the judgment on humanity in the heavenly courts goes on, the 24 Elders are present on behalf of us that they will make sure it is a fair trial in favor of us. I believe, therefore, as the Scripture testifies, the captivity of captives by Jesus at His ascension-namely the 24 Elders, is truly a gift for men (Eph. 4:8).

The 24 Elders ascended to heaven on the day of Jesus' resurrection, as portrayed in the wave-sheaf festival of the OT (Lev. 23:15, 17). The outpouring of the Holy Spirit came after Jesus spent forty days plus ten more days, which we know is called pentecostal day (Lev. 23:16; Acts 1:2-3; 2:1-2). In other words, the gift of the Holy Spirit manifested after the fifty days, rather than on the day of resurrection of Jesus as declared that the captivity of captives are a gift for men.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #194458
09/10/21 09:41 PM
09/10/21 09:41 PM
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TheophilusOne  Online Content
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Karen, God love you, I am totally unconvinced. I still don't see how the 24 elders are a gift to men. I think that's a stretchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. They are the reprresentatives of unfallen worlds, I believe.

How do you know there were only 24 resurrected?

Quote
While the judgment on humanity in the heavenly courts goes on, the 24 Elders are present on behalf of us that they will make sure it is a fair trial in favor of us


I don't think the elders are there to make sure our judgement is fair. so are they judging God's judgement? Nope. That is just silly



And I still don't think Christ was in heaven in Rev 4.Bohr's reasoning is sound.

Maybe we've reached an impasse

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