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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #194640
02/07/22 08:08 PM
02/07/22 08:08 PM
K
Karen Y  Online Content OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 486
Michigan, US
The true worship of God that we must follow after the pattern is revealed in the throne room of Revelation.

Is there a warning about the false worship in the world and to "all that dwell upon the earth"? Yes, Rev. 13 says that the deception is so great that everybody will end up worshipping the beast.

If the implication is enormous, shouldn't there be "a loud voice" from heaven to warn the inhabitants of the world?

The first angel's message in Rev. 14 clearly says, with a loud voice, "Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come; and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

SDA Church has proclaimed the warning over the past 170 plus years already. Please notice the tense in the passage; who "had" and who "worshipped" his image. These are the ones who reject the message of mercy over time.

Rev. 16:2 "And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; ... upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image."

Revelation is clear that those who worship the image of the beast will be "cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone" (Rev. 19:20).

"Whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:15).

"all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8).

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #194650
02/16/22 11:12 AM
02/16/22 11:12 AM
K
Karen Y  Online Content OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 486
Michigan, US
Those who are worshipping the beast's image will receive the seven last plagues.

Rev. 16:2b and 2a NIV "... the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image." "The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly, festering sores broke out on" them.

Rev. 16:2b and 2a KJV "upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image." "And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore" on them.

Notice, "worshipped his image" is past tense, which means "all that dwell upon the earth shall wo isrship him" happened before the first plague of the seven last plagues.

God always gives a time to repent before the punishment. Rev. 2:21 "And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not."
Rev. 2:22 "Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds."

Acts 17:30 NIV "In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent."

What's the antithesis of the worship of the beast's image? It boils down to the fourth commandment of the Sabbath keeping. Has the message of the three angel's gone out to the whole world yet? I believe so, if not, how much more time do we need?

The warning of the first trumpet is, Rev. 8:7, "The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up."

The warning of something "cast upon the earth" fulfills in the first plague: "upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image." "And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore" on them (Rev. 16:2a,2b). It is poured out "upon the earth" because of the worship of the beast's image.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #194676
03/07/22 08:48 AM
03/07/22 08:48 AM
K
Karen Y  Online Content OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 486
Michigan, US
One can perceive a mountain view only in observation from a distance; a close-up view is partial.

Likewise, the book of Revelation needs to be viewed in a bird's-eye-view at one glance first, which provides the reader to keep its interpretation within the overall outlines.

The interconnection through Chapter 1 to Chap. 22 is evident if we approach the overview outlines.

Examine the overview;
Chap. 1 is the counterpart to Chap. 22
Chap. 2-3 ------------------ Chap. 21
Chap. 4-5 ------------------ Chap. 20
Chap. 6-7 ------------------ Chap. 19
Chap. 8-11 ----------------- Chap. 17-18
Chap. 12-14 --------------- Chap. 15-16

Let's look at Chap. 1;
1:1 "which must shortly come to pass" --- "which must shortly be done"

1:2 "the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ" --- Do not add or substract from the prophecy. 22:18-19

1:3 "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand." --- 22:7, 14 blessed the keeper and shall have right to the tree of life.

1:4 "John to the seven churches" --- 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches."

1:5-6 "Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests" --- 22:5 "they shall reign for ever and ever"

1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him" --- 22:20 "Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."

1:8 " I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending" --- 22:13 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last"

Let us study for ourselves in this approach of investigation. We shall see a clear and plain interconnection that jumps out for a comprehensive understanding.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #194700
03/21/22 11:43 AM
03/21/22 11:43 AM
K
Karen Y  Online Content OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 486
Michigan, US
In Revelation, the relevant symmetries in the overview visions introduce a theme that points to a conclusion.

The vision of the Seven Churches (Ch. 1-3) is introduced because the conclusion of the theme tells us that the earthly church is the only gate to New Jerusalem of the holy church in heaven (Ch. 21-22).

The vision of the throne room (Ch. 4-5) is introduced => the saints will review the judgment of God during the millennium in heaven (Ch. 20).

The vision of the Seven Seals (Ch. 6-7) is introduced => only the sealed saints will meet happily the Second Coming of Jesus (Ch. 19).

The vision of the Seven Trumpets (Ch. 8-11) is introduced => thru the warnings of the 7 trumpets the spiritual Babylon will be collapsed (Ch. 17-18).

The vision of the Great Controversy, which unmasks Satan's identity (Ch. 12-14) is introduced => conclusively, those who reject the truth will receive the punishment of the Seven Last Plagues (Ch. 15-16).

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #194724
04/14/22 10:41 AM
04/14/22 10:41 AM
K
Karen Y  Online Content OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 486
Michigan, US
In Revelation, the intended true meaning of the seven churches relation to New Jerusalem is that only people can enter New Jerusalem through the church on earth. In other words, the gate to New Jerusalem is the seven churches. No wonder Jesus said that He testified unto the churches: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." (Rev. 22:16).

Jesus has the seven stars in His right hand, and the messengers(angels) of the seven churches are to tell that He has the keys of hell and of death. So, repent! and be saved!

John was in the spirit on the Lord's day (Rev. 1:10) and saw the Majesty of heaven, Jesus, who has accomplished the redemption of men and sat on the throne of God in heaven.

John was asked to come up to see the throne room where Jesus stands before the bar of God's judgment to claim every repentant sinners' behalf.
For John to see what's going on in the throne room, again, he was in the spirit: "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne." (Rev. 4:2).

It is superlative important that the heavenly assembly must investigate every soul who professes to be a believer and seals them by the blood of Christ Jesus. Naturally, that is what we see after the vision of the seven churches.

Interestingly, John was carried by the spirit to see the harlot woman of Rev. 17: "So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns." (Rev. 17:3).

The same expression is used when John saw New Jerusalem: "And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God," (Rev. 21:10).

I discovered a deeper meaning of what God intended to teach in the four mentioned in the spirit in Revelation. The true church is the Sabbath-keepers according to the commandments of God, and they can truly be filled by the spirit on the Lord's day. To perceive the reality of the heavenly temple and its event, one must be filled with the spirit. The contrast between the harlot and the reality of New Jerusalem is compared for the spirit-filled saints to observe.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #194812
05/23/22 10:23 AM
05/23/22 10:23 AM
K
Karen Y  Online Content OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 486
Michigan, US
The Judgment of God

One of the main theme in the book of Revelation is the judgment of God.

1 John 4:17-18, 20
"Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment:
because as he is, so are we in this world.

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear:
because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar:
for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?"

In bird's eye view, draw in your mind the overview of the book of Revelation first to see the clear theme of God's judgment:
Ch. 1-3 Seven Churches
Ch. 4-5 Investigative Judgment
Ch. 6-7 Seven Seals

Ch. 1-7 messages pertain to the saints.

Ch. 8-11 Seven Trumpets
Ch. 12-14 Satan's Identity Unmasked

Ch. 8-14 messages pertain to the wicked

Ch. 15-16 Seven Plagues
Ch. 17-18 Spiritual Babylon Collapse (iniquities thru religion, politic, economy)
Ch. 19 Jesus' Second Coming

Ch. 15-19 messages pertain to the most wicked

Ch. 20 MilleThere is no need to fear the judgment of God; the heavenly beings summoned to ask the price of the lost humanity for repurchase (Rev. Ch. 4-5), just as sought for a cost in a desire to buy things in the marketplace in an analogy.
The judgment must exist to ratify an admission of repentant sinners to the kingdom of God.
The precious blood of Jesus Christ has made us His inheritance. Thus, the judgment is for the favor of the saints.nnium (reign as kings)
Ch. 21-22 the redeemed saints "shall reign for ever and ever."

Ch. 20-22 messages pertain to the righteous saints.



Ch. 1-7 pertain to the saints....Investigative Judgment
Ch. 8-14 pertain to the wicked....Verdict Judgment
Ch. 15-19 pertain to the most wicked....Execution Judgment
Ch. 20-22 pertain to the righteous saints....Reviewing the Judgment


There is no need to fear the judgment of God; the heavenly beings summoned to ask the price of the lost humanity for repurchase (Rev. Ch. 4-5), just as sought for a cost in a desire to buy things in the marketplace in an analogy.
Logically, the judgment must exist to ratify an admission of repentant sinners to the kingdom of God.
We are made "kings and priests" thru the precious blood of Jesus Christ. Thus, the judgment is for the favor of the saints.

A top-rated and competent attorney is known for overturning impossible cases into a triumphant success.

Jesus is our excellent Advocate in the context of Zechariah 3:1-5.

The high priest, Joshua, stood before the Lord, and the adversary Satan resisted him at his side. The Lord rebuked Satan, "I have even chosen Jerusalem; isn't Joshua a brand plucked out of the fire?"
The abomination in Jerusalem is not near a comparison with Joshua's sin. On the very spot of Mt. Moriah that Abraham offered Isaac, Solomon built the temple of God. Satan suspected the significance that made bringing abominable idolatries of all kinds into that place. However, God still didn't forsake the corrupted place but made it possible to build the temple. He will not give up! God has demonstrated His great love through the cross of Calvary, where His only begotten Son Jesus offered up the life.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #194860
06/16/22 01:34 AM
06/16/22 01:34 AM
Kevin H  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 625
New York
Originally Posted by Karen Y
What do we know about the four living creatures in relation to the 24 Elders?

The four living creatures formed the innermost circle with the 24 Elders and angelic host forming the outer circles surrounding the throne of God in Rev. 4:6-7.

We find in Ezek. 1 and Isa. 6 that the four living creatures appear to be the leaders of the heavenly court. And we see them throughout Revelation that they have their function: they guide heavenly worship in 5:6-7;
sent out the four horsemen of the Apocalypse in 6:1-8,
and participate in worship in 7:11.
One of the four living creatures gives the golden bowl to the seven angels in 15:7.

Their final appearance is in 19:4 in that they fall before God and cry out "Amen, hallelujah," together with the 24 Elders.

In conclusion, the 24 Elders are the wave sheaf that Jesus took from the earth as a firstfruit of harvest for the redemption of man. (See Lev. 23:10-12 for reference). They are saying, "Amen, hallelujah" since they are there first before we get there.

"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." (Rev. 22:21).


I had two professors who gave a different understanding of the 24 Elders. For two different reasons, they both ended up with the same conclusion. One was a professor at Atlantic Union College, the other is a Methodist who I studied with at the Jerusalem Center for Biblical Studies, in Jerusalem Israel. I find each professors evidence compelling in and of themselves, and the combination of the two makes it stronger still.

Our tradition of the 24 Elders being those who Jesus took with him to heaven a bit guessing, and makes Revelation 4 and 5 a selfie of John's vacation in heaven that we can caption "wish you were here".

Both of these professors came to the conclusion that the 24 Elders is the testimony of the 12 tribes and the 12 apostles, or the Old and New Testament. The one professor points out how Revelation and Ezekiel are the way the Hebrews traveled and camped during the exodus. It is a mixture of human and a reflection of the heavenly. In Revelation they replace the priests from the camping of the exodus. In the exodus you had the sanctuary in the middle, the priests and Levites around the sanctuary brining messages from the throne of God to God's people in the exodus. Just as Revelation starts out with the angels connected for the churches, the 4 beasts in the exodus represent the 4 sides of the tribes camping around the sanctuary with the priests and Levites between them. In Ezekiel these same images represent that God was not sending out his people and saying "good radiance" to them, but that he was going into exile with them as he traveled with them in the exodus.

Thus in Revelation 4 and 5 the four beasts again represent God's people in exodus/exile, traveling home but not home. We do not have the physical tabernacle that Moses had, but in Revelation God's throne is in heaven. The 24 elders are in the position of the priests, between God's throne in heaven and we, his beloved people on earth in our exodus/exile, not home. And that God is directly communicating with his church/the 4 beasts through the 24 Elders, the testimony of the tribes and the apostles, the word of God. That instead of Revelation being a selfie of a vacation in heaven, that Revelation is teaching us that God is directly communicating with his church on earth through the word of God. That the Bible is not just some book, but an active conduit directly from God's throne in heaven to us his people on earth.

The other professor points out that when studying ancient Judaism that the Sanhedrin consisted of three groups of 23 Elders (the word "Sanhedrin" is Greek. The Hebrew/Aramaic word is "Elders") with the high priest for 24 Elders. Any of these groups of 23 Elders plus the high priest were considered a quorum and that you did not need all 70 Elders but a group of 24 could still be considered the "whole Sanhedrin"

The Pharisees belonged to different schools, had different arguments and tried to be more or less somewhat fair. Because of this 23 priestly Sadduceen Elders with the high priest would get together without any Pharisees. They did not even pretend to be a fair trial. They would purposely have witnesses disagree with each other. They would then either take their victim out and stone them to death, unless their victim was really popular, in which case, the people understood Deuteronomy 21:22-23 to mean that if anyone was hung on a tree that they were not a true follower of God. Hanging on a tree would ruin someone's reputation just as if they were found cheating on their wife or stealing the church's funds. So for popular teachers the 24 Priestly Elders of a Sadduceen court would turn their victim over to Rome to hang them on a tree.

The role of the priests was to give the true witness of Jesus. Their guardian angels could have well been angels who guided the Bible writers. They were trying to influence these 24 Elders to give the true witness of Jesus, as per their calling. But they instead choose to give a false witness of Jesus. Their heavenly counterparts, the heavenly 24 Elders are giving the true testimony of Jesus through the testimony of the 12 tribes and the 12 apostles, the testimony that the 24 Sadducee Priestly Elders refused to give, or the word of God to proclaim the truth about Jesus to the world.

Please look at these and I hope you find them useful.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #194861
06/16/22 01:35 AM
06/16/22 01:35 AM
Kevin H  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 625
New York
The 24 Elders in Revelation

The setting of Revelation 4 and 5, the 24 elders:
In Ezekiel chapter we find God?s people sent to exile in Babylon. But we don?t find God saying ?Good Riddance? but that God leaves to go into exile with his people. We find a movable throne of God were we find the 4 beasts representing angels. In Revelation we read about the angels of the churches, and Prophets talk about mighty angels that work with them. In Daniel 10: 12-13, we are told how the angel was working on the heart of the prince of Persia, who resisted him for 21 days, thus delaying his coming to Daniel with the answer Daniel was concerned about.

As the Hebrews marched from Egypt to the promised land they camped as a square with the sanctuary in the middle, the Levites, including the priests, who taught the people messages from God camped in a square around the tabernacle, living between the Sanctuary and the other tribes which were camped again as a square. The middle tribe on each of the four sides of this square had animals that represented them. Ephraim the ox, Dan the Eagle, Judah the lion, and Ruben the man. These symbols also represented all the tribes on that side of the tabernacle. The stones on the high priest?s breastplate was not in the tic-tac-toe shape we have it in our pictures, but they were laid out around the heart of the high priest. The high priest?s heart was where the sanctuary was, and an open square and the 12 stones were a square around the heart as the Hebrews camped around the sanctuary. This symbolized the high priest carrying God?s people on his heart. This symbolized Jesus carrying us on his heart.








Naphtali Eagle
Dan Asher
Manasseh Levites/Priests Zeblum
Ox
Ephraim Levites/Priests Tabernacle Levites/Priests Lion
Judah
Benjaman Levites/Priests Issachar
Simeon Rubin
Man Gad


This is the structure of Revelation 4 and 5, the picture of the Hebrews, God?s people traveling in the exodus from Egypt to the promised land. We have in the middle were the sanctuary was, in Revelation we find God?s throne with phrases referring God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Then you have 24 elders who has replaces the Levites/priests, and we naturally find the 4 beasts, just as the camp of the exodus had these 4 beasts representing the 4 sides of God?s people traveling from Egypt to the promised land, and is symbolized in Ezekiel that God?s people in exile are not abandoned. Just as each church in Revelation has it?s angel, so each side of God?s people in exodus from Egypt but not yet in the promised land, and as the angels for these four sides of God?s people out of the promised land during the Babylonian exile.

Eagle
24 Elders



Ox


24 Elders God?s throne, symbols of the trinity: 7 Spirits (or perfect Spirit, the Holy Spirit) the lamb


24 Elders


Lion
24 Elders
Man


The gospels has 24 Sadduceen Elders giving a false testimony about Jesus. In Revelation we find the heavenly counterpart of these 24 men. Instead of the 24 false witnesses telling lies about Jesus, in Revelation we find 24 Elders who gives the true witness of Jesus, and just as the Levites/priests brought the message from the sanctuary to the 4 creatures, God?s people in exodus, freed from Egypt but not yet in the promised land, so the 24 elders communicate what is happening in heaven to the 4 creatures who again represent both the angels for the 4 sides and the people these angels minister to of God?s people either in exodus or exile.

The job of the 24 Sadducee elders, 24 priests, was to present the truth about God to the people, but instead of doing their job they instead gave a false testimony about Jesus. In Revelation we find a their heavenly counter parts, 24 elders camped between God?s throne and the 4 beasts who represent God?s people in exodus between Egypt and the promised land. but these 24 elders are giving God?s people in the exodus the true testimony about Jesus. We thus see one significant reason for there to be 24 elders If the John of Revelation is the same John of the gospel, these 24 elders would have a special significance as he saw the 24 elders giving the false witness of Jesus. Just as the 7 churches have their angel, and the 4 sides of God?s people when they were either in transit from Egypt to the promised land, or outside of the promised land in exile, so we see a oneness of 24 mighty angels who worked with prophets throughout history, especially the prophets who wrote the Bible. But we also see these 24 mighty angels trying to work with the hearts of the 24 Sadducees to proclaim the truth about Jesus instead of telling the lies about Jesus that they choose to let come out of their lips.

We have two sets of 12 in the Bible, the one is the witness of the 12 tribes and second, the witness of the 12 Apostles. We have saved the record of their witness in the Old and New Testaments, and through the Bible we get the truth about Jesus and how heaven communicates with us on earth. We thus have in Revelation 4 and 5 God?s throne, the 24 elders replacing the Levites and priests, the testimony of the 12 tribes and 12 apostles, the word of God, to the 4 living creatures which is God?s people who have been delivered from sin but on our way to the promised land. The 24 elders is simply God communicating to his church through the scriptures.

There is sadness in heaven because no one can open the scroll. But then one of the elders tells John what is happening. When all looks hopeless, the Bible tells us what Jesus has done and is doing. The Bible teaches that all is not lost, the elder tells John that the lion of Judah, is able to open the scroll. When John looks up to see this great powerful hero, what greets his eyes is the lamb that was slain by violence. The false elder cried ?Crucify him!? the true witness tells us the implications of Jesus? crucifixion. The true elder points John to the true lion hero, a lamb killed by violence, only he is able to open the seals and the scroll. The scroll appears to be history. Had Jesus not died for us there would be no more history, but Jesus is able to open the scrolls and history continues. If Jesus did not die, it would have shown that God had some selfishness in him and was unworthy of our love and worship. His life giving relationship would have been worthless. If he had not died, in heaven Enoch, Moses and Elijah would not have faced a firing squad of angels and the rest of the universe just move on as earth is destroyed. If selfishness, sin, was found in God it would have destroyed the entire universe. But the lamb killed by violence has won the victory! Because of him and this event, history can continue. The great lion hero, the lamb killed by violence is worthy to break open the seals and unroll the scroll.

Now just because history goes on, does not mean that what follows would be peaceful. Like the Hebrews in the wilderness, and the exile, we are delivered from sin and death, but not yet home. Different commentaries can teach different aspects and applications of the seals. Some apply the seals as a description of the church through history, others point out that it can also apply to hardships in general, as we go through cycles of warfare, bloodshed, famine and death. We can learn from both. The 4 living creatures say ?Come? because it is God?s people who are going through these things, including martyrdom. Sides will be chosen as to whether we will follow God or not. But also, our knowledge of truth is progressive. At different times in history there is present truth. We learn the truth from the Bible, the 24 elders. Even if there is a message from prophets, they are to base their authority and message from the Bible. The Bible is not like, say the story of Goldilocks and the 3 bears where we read the story and know the story and it ends there. The Bible is the living word of God, who brings to the church what God actually wants the church to know at that time in history. Thus we always need to study the Bible as we will always be learning more. When it is time for heaven to send us a new message, the Holy Spirit will point it out to different people here and there who are studying the pages of scripture.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #194862
06/16/22 01:36 AM
06/16/22 01:36 AM
Kevin H  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 625
New York
Death of Jesus and the Jews: The 24 Elders, Sanhedren

Every spring there is a recall of the passion of Jesus. Sermons, plays, movies recall the story, Jesus ate the last supper with his disciples, went to the garden of Gethsemane, was arrested, had inquiries by the sanhedren, taken before Pilate, Pilate sent to Herod, back to Pilate where Pilate offered a choice between Barabbas or Jesus. Barabbas was freed, Jesus was then flogged and crucified. Mrs. White tells us that we should spend a thoughtful hour each day considering the life of Jesus, especially the closing chapters.

Since this is so crucial, we should not be surprised that Satan throws in traditions to distort our thinking of this event. May I offer some recommendations for removing these traditions and to come closer to the most important events. First may I recommend that you read in order the chapters ?The Origin of Evil? from Patriarchs and Prophets, ?Why was Sin Permitted? in Great Controversy, ?Gethsemane? in the Desire of Ages, and the crowning chapter in all of Mrs. White?s writings ?It is Finished? in the Desire of Ages. For commentary on these chapters if you can get it please read the 3 chapters found in the original printing of the book ?Sanctuary and the Atonement? titled ?The Mighty Opposites: the Atonement in the writings of Ellen G. White? parts 1 and 2, and ?We Must All Appear: The Investigative Judgment in the writings of Ellen G. White?, and the book ?Ellen White Under Fire: What her critics get wrong. And to help remove the false traditions that has developed over the centuries.

Please add to the above ?Drinking at the Sources? by Jacques Doukhan, and the lecture workbooks on the crucifixion and Holy week, especially his message ?The death of Jesus and the Jews? and the workbook ?Acts: New Discoveries of the Ancient Church? by Methodist Archaeologist Jim Fleming. After reading though these once, go back and reread allowing what you learned as you read through the first time, deepen your insights as you read them through the second time. This is a good cycle to repeat through out your life, but I cannot emphasize the importance of these resources. You will find such deeper meaning in what Jesus did for us, and the lecture workbook on Acts will clear up many traditions that are used against both the Jews, as well as against our love for the Sabbath. I hope I am being fair to these teachers and writers in my words below.

The Sanhedrin was a group of 70 and consisted of Sadducees and representatives of different schools of Pharisees. The Pharisees held different views that they would argue. In the story of Jesus going through the grain fields and the disciples plucked and ate; this was a point of disagreement among the Pharisees. Some, as the ones encountered by Jesus, believed this act was work and thus broke the Sabbath. But they would argue this with Pharisees from other schools did not see this action as work and therefore was not breaking the sabbath and they would argue how it was not work. Jesus gave a different answer than the typical arguments trying to explain how it was not work. Jesus agreed with them that it was work but made a difference between common labor, that the commandment prohibited and the works of God in sustaining the universe and ministry which can be done no matter what day or time it is, and that God is always doing this work and we are free to do this same style of work.

Pharisees differed over many different topics, how far to walk on Sabbath, they even argued over whether or not women should be ordained as rabbis; with the more conservative supporting the practice and the more liberals rejecting the practice. In Acts, when Paul saw that there were Pharisees present he was able to bring up a topic that they would argue over and thus prolonged his life. Besides different schools of views on the topics, the Pharisees ran the whole spectrum from those who honestly had a relationship with God and would follow according to their conscience to their best understanding, others wanted to be like them, and would copy the actions, but not have the experience and tried to reach the experience through their actions, while others were hypocrites who liked the prestige and thus the admiration and the power over others by appearing religious. Jesus had both enemies and friends among the pharisees, In Luke 13:31 a group of pharisees risked their very lives to warn Jesus that Herod was after him, which appears to have given Jesus the chance to leave Galilee to Caesarea Philippi.

The Sadducees, on the other hand, were corrupt puppets of Rome. The house of Annas was very corrupt. The money from the money changers in the temple went straight to Pilate as a bribe to keep the house of Annas in power. Jesus cleaned the temple of these money changers at least once, probably twice, but each time they eventually returned. But a few years after Jesus a pharisee cleaned the temple again and this time it was permanent. (What he did was quite simple: Instead of coming to the temple with a sacrifice for each child, that families would wait until the mother reached menopause and give just the one sacrifice to cover all the children. The prices of sacrifices plummeted and the money changers were no longer to charge their exorbitant prices. Could Jesus? cleaning of the temple have inspired that pharisee to clean the temple? The money changers returned after Jesus sent them out, did their return cause this pharisee to think about how to not only send them out but also think about what could happen to keep them out? The act of cleaning the temple was very upsetting to the sadducees and to Caiaphas and Pilate as the money raised went right to Pilate as a bribe to keep them in power.)

A big job description of both the governor and the sanhedren was to keep the peace. Thus there were two court systems, one dealing with secular, political issues the other dealing with religious issues. Rome had several ways of punishing as well as several ways of putting people to death. The sanhedren had lighter punishments and only one form of putting someone to death, stoning them. Sometimes in our retelling the story of the cross we picture the sanhedren as unable to put people to death. Since they were unable to crucify someone. There was a big reason why they wanted to crucify him and why they not be satisfied by simply stoning him.

When someone became popular among the people, that person would come to the attention of the political and religious leaders. The governor?s office and high priest would decide if they should bring the person before the civil authorities or if there were religious concerns they would come before the sanhedren. If they were taken before the sanhedren, often the sanhedren frequently would make no headway as the pharisees would for the most part try to be at least somewhat fair, and the different views among the pharisees would often lead to arguments. To prevent this the house of Annis set up a court system within the sanhedren. The sanhedren, while having 70 members, they could meet with a quorum of 23, considered to be a ?full sanhedren?. Annas and later Caiaphas would meet with 23 sadducees, their cronies. No pharisees allowed. All through the middle ages the Jews has a phrase ?Sadduceen court? which had the same meaning as the phrase ?Kangaroo court?. If you were dragged before the sanhedren and found instead of 70, but only the 23 sadducees and the high priest, your goose was cooked. They did not even pretend to have a fair trial. They mocked the judicial system. They would bring in witnesses who would purposely contradict each other, then there victim would be dragged out to be stoned.

Now, if the person was very popular among the people, the sadducees did not want to stone them to death. Stoning could make the person a martyr and his followers continue the message. The sadducees had a way of destroying both the person and the message. At the time Deuteronomy 21:23 was understood people in that culture that only God?s cursed enemies would hang on a tree. Thus if they were turned over to the secular authorities and crucified, people would see this through the context of what they believed the Bible taught in Deuteronomy 21:23. This would ruin the teacher?s reputation just as much as if he was caught having an affair or gambling with the church?s funds or any other action a pastor/teacher could do to ruin his reputation. As he hanged there his followers would be turning to Deuteronomy 21:23 and have a sick feeling in their gut. They would wonder ?How could I have been so deceived? He sounded so good, but according to Deuteronomy 21:23 he was God?s enemy, a follower and teacher of the Satan.? and from that misunderstanding of their ?proof text? they would distance themselves from their former teacher. Thus both the teacher and the teaching would die.

The descriptions we have of Jesus' hearing before the sanhedren fits the description of the 23 sadduceen priests and the high priest. 24 people. And Jesus was so popular that they did not want to make him a martyr by stoning him to death, but wanted to ruin his reputation by turning him over to the civil authorities to hang him on a tree. Now the word "Sanhedren" is a Greek word, not what this council would actually be called. Archaeological discoveries have found that what in Greek is called the "Sanhedren" was to the people in Jerusalem "The Elders"

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #194865
06/17/22 11:54 PM
06/17/22 11:54 PM
Kevin H  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 625
New York
Can't find where to click for edit, but the last above sentence should read:

Archaeological discoveries have found that what in Greek is called the "Sanhedrin" was to the people in Jerusalem "The Elders"

So in summery, Revelation 4 and 5 is telling us that God is not leaving us here on earth as orphans, but instead of human priests Heaven actively communicates to his people in exodus/exile (the 4 creatures) through the writings from the 12 tribes (the Old Testament) and the writings of the 12 Apostles (the New Testament). The Bible is the 24 elders who have replaced the human priests for active communication between heaven and earth.

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