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Re: Why is rejection of the SOP happening? [Re: Alchemy] #175904
08/06/15 01:37 PM
08/06/15 01:37 PM
J
JAK  Offline
FORMER-SDA
Active Member 2018
Banned
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 663
Canada
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Originally Posted By: JAK
There are certain of the FB that I would like clarification on, such as but not limited to #12 as per our PM discussion, but the closer one examines the SDA belief system the more one realizes that the answers are shoddy and superficial.

(bold emphasis mine)

Such as JAK? Could you elaborate?

Originally Posted By: Elle

I agree with Jak. Would like to hear Jak's answer,

So, as a brief warm-up exercise, let's try FB#12, which contains the phrase "The church is God’s family; adopted by Him as children, its members live on the basis of the new covenant." (page 134 in the old Seventh-day Adventists Believe...27, R&H, 1988)

1) What is the "new covenant"?
2) what was the "old covenant"?
3) What conditions and/or requirements are in the NC?
4) What conditions and/or requirements are no longer valid from the OC?
5) Why did we need a new one?

If we "live on the basis of the new covenant", we should know this.

I thought this would be a dead simple clarification. Turns out there are as many answers as people I ask.


"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
Re: Why is rejection of the SOP happening? [Re: JAK] #175908
08/06/15 07:59 PM
08/06/15 07:59 PM
A
Alchemy  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2018

Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
Blessings JAK,

You have far more questions than answers. You need to study out a lot of these questions for yourself.

As far as the covenants, God's people have always lived under the New Covenant! Many of God's professed people insisted on doing things their way and that is the Old Covenant. This God allowed as a test to prove to all humanity that created beings can not help or save themselves and needed God for everything in life. God ended the test at Calvary.

Re: Why is rejection of the SOP happening? [Re: Alchemy] #175910
08/06/15 09:31 PM
08/06/15 09:31 PM
J
JAK  Offline
FORMER-SDA
Active Member 2018
Banned
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 663
Canada
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Blessings JAK,

You have far more questions than answers. You need to study out a lot of these questions for yourself.


Where the hell do ya think those questions came from, idiot.
From studying.

Don't tell me to go "study it for myself". I did. Now I'm asking the questions, which, by the way, no one can answer. Including you.

One scrawny paragraph with not a Biblical references or support material does not constitute an answer.


"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
Re: Why is rejection of the SOP happening? [Re: JAK] #175911
08/07/15 01:53 AM
08/07/15 01:53 AM
J
James Peterson  Offline
NON-SDA
Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: JAK
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Originally Posted By: JAK
There are certain of the FB that I would like clarification on, such as but not limited to #12 as per our PM discussion, but the closer one examines the SDA belief system the more one realizes that the answers are shoddy and superficial.

(bold emphasis mine)

Such as JAK? Could you elaborate?

Originally Posted By: Elle

I agree with Jak. Would like to hear Jak's answer,

So, as a brief warm-up exercise, let's try FB#12, which contains the phrase "The church is God’s family; adopted by Him as children, its members live on the basis of the new covenant." (page 134 in the old Seventh-day Adventists Believe...27, R&H, 1988)

1) What is the "new covenant"?
2) what was the "old covenant"?
3) What conditions and/or requirements are in the NC?
4) What conditions and/or requirements are no longer valid from the OC?
5) Why did we need a new one?

If we "live on the basis of the new covenant", we should know this.

I thought this would be a dead simple clarification. Turns out there are as many answers as people I ask.

Paul says the first covenant was growing old and ready to vanish because God, "finding fault with [the Jews]", deemed it necessary to renew it.

///

Re: Why is rejection of the SOP happening? [Re: JAK] #175914
08/07/15 08:27 AM
08/07/15 08:27 AM
A
Alchemy  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2018

Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
Originally Posted By: JAK
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Blessings JAK,

You have far more questions than answers. You need to study out a lot of these questions for yourself.


Where the hell do ya think those questions came from, idiot.
From studying.

Don't tell me to go "study it for myself". I did. Now I'm asking the questions, which, by the way, no one can answer. Including you.

One scrawny paragraph with not a Biblical references or support material does not constitute an answer.
(bold emphasis mine)

Blessings JAK,

Well, you obviously didn't study well enough!

Exodus 20:18-21; And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off. And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die. And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not. And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was. (bold emphasis mine)

This is the beginning of the Old Covenant! The people told Moses to tell them what God said and they would do it. Impossible! But, God allowed this to test Israel and teach them that they can't do it. They can't obey and honor God without direct help from God Himself.

Where Moses went into the darkness where God was, the people stood afar off. God wanted a direct personal relationship with His people, but they completely missed the point. This test ended at Calvary with Israel failing to get the point.

I hope and pray we don't make the same mistake.

Last edited by Alchemy; 08/07/15 08:28 AM.
Re: Why is rejection of the SOP happening? [Re: JAK] #175915
08/07/15 11:21 AM
08/07/15 11:21 AM
ProdigalOne  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2022

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,043
Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By: JAK
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Blessings JAK,

You have far more questions than answers. You need to study out a lot of these questions for yourself.


Where the hell do ya think those questions came from, idiot.
From studying.

Don't tell me to go "study it for myself". I did. Now I'm asking the questions, which, by the way, no one can answer. Including you.



JAK, my personal situation is such that I no longer attend organized church and there are no home based churches where I live. I joined this forum a short time ago in order to have some form of interaction and fellowship with brothers and sisters who share a similar worldview.

I see this site as a place where we can help one and other grow toward the Light: a place to safely discuss that which the outside world does not comprehend; at times a place of passionate, even heated discussion, perhaps. Still, a place where we can reach past our differences and learn to see the Spirit of our Lord hard at work, perfecting each precious soul. It is in this Spirit of fellowship and love that I reach out to you now.

My Gandolfian friend, observing many of your posts has led me to believe that you are highly intelligent and extremely observant, but also quite bitter and filled with anger...
Though, your frustration is directed at members of this site, I wonder if it might be the image of God in their hearts that you are truely upset with?

As one who has been forced to deal with anger and its consequences all of my life, I recognize that spirit and know the hold of its stubborn grip all too well. You are not alone! I urge you with all of my heart, my Brother, do not give up the battle. Cast yourself upon the Rock. Broken, you will find Peace and realize at last you have brothers and sisters who understand and care...


"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."
Galations 5:22-23

"Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples."
John 15:8



How incompatible these two spirits are!



"But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca', (vain, empty, worthless) is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."
Matthew 5:22



By the way, here is the answer to all of the questions you asked Alchemy:


"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."
Jeremiah 31:31-33


No one, whose conscience is not seared, can fail to be moved at the sight of the innocent Lamb of God, The Face of Infinite Love made flesh, writhing in agony on the cross to tear us from the rising flames. It is in this moment of Love and Pain, that the crude reflection of animals and altars vanishes, and we come face to face with the true meaning of Sacrifice.

At that moment of awsome insight, the crushing weight of sin and the terrible import of the Law are written by the Father's finger, not in cold dead stone, but within our warm, beating, heart. And at last we know that He is our Savior, He is our God.



Now JAK, I have one question for you.
It is the most important question you will ever be asked.
How do you and those around you, know that you follow Christ?







"By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."
John 13:35






"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: Why is rejection of the SOP happening? [Re: JAK] #175919
08/07/15 03:41 PM
08/07/15 03:41 PM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: jak
So, as a brief warm-up exercise, let's try FB#12, which contains the phrase "The church is God’s family; adopted by Him as children, its members live on the basis of the new covenant." (page 134 in the old Seventh-day Adventists Believe...27, R&H, 1988)

1) What is the "new covenant"?
2) what was the "old covenant"?
3) What conditions and/or requirements are in the NC?
4) What conditions and/or requirements are no longer valid from the OC?
5) Why did we need a new one?

If we "live on the basis of the new covenant", we should know this.

I thought this would be a dead simple clarification. Turns out there are as many answers as people I ask.

This is a good example and I agree with you that SDA's answer to these questions is very superficial and lacking.

From your questions I can see where your study brought you. These are very important questions. These question I have faced many time as I study the law(OC) and trying to understand the NC application of it. If anyone in this forum wants to further discuss this topic, I certainly would be interested in knowing what you (JAK or others) have understood. I would be interested to also share what would be my understanding of this up to now. As any man cannot claim, I do not claim that my understanding is complete or full. That's why its good to discuss here and see what the Lord has taught others.

Besides FB#12 relating to the new covenant; can you give me two other example to sustaintiate your statement that SDAs doctrines are "shoddy and superficial". I'm only curious but it's not necessary that I know.

Originally Posted By: Jak
Where the hell do ya think those questions came from, idiot.
From studying.

I second Prodigalone reply to this. Let us be patient towards one another.


Blessings
Re: Why is rejection of the SOP happening? [Re: JAK] #175920
08/07/15 04:13 PM
08/07/15 04:13 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,153
Brazil
Quote:
So, as a brief warm-up exercise, let's try FB#12, which contains the phrase "The church is God’s family; adopted by Him as children, its members live on the basis of the new covenant." (page 134 in the old Seventh-day Adventists Believe...27, R&H, 1988)

1) What is the "new covenant"?
2) what was the "old covenant"?
3) What conditions and/or requirements are in the NC?
4) What conditions and/or requirements are no longer valid from the OC?
5) Why did we need a new one?

If we "live on the basis of the new covenant", we should know this.

I thought this would be a dead simple clarification. Turns out there are as many answers as people I ask.

JAK, there is no reason to involve FB #12 in this. Whatever the view one holds about the OC/NC, it is unquestionable that all those who are under Christ's blood are under the NC. The Bible is clear about that:

Luke_22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

1 Cor_11:25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."

2 Cor_3:6 who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Heb_12:24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant...

So, if the Bible view or the position of the SDA Church about the OC/NC is not yet clear to you, please start a specific thread about this, where the subject can be discussed at length.

Re: Why is rejection of the SOP happening? [Re: Rick H] #175921
08/07/15 04:23 PM
08/07/15 04:23 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,153
Brazil
Thank you to all those who aluded to Christian courtesy. This is a virtue especially necessary in forum discussions.

Re: Why is rejection of the SOP happening? [Re: Rick H] #176035
08/13/15 06:05 PM
08/13/15 06:05 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
It is unfortunate insult and slander are slung around so freely on this forum. I'm surprised more effort isn't devoted to policing this forum. Especially is it offensive when members bash people for sharing fundamental SDA beliefs. The rules of the forum forbid it. This is a SDA community site. Nobody here should feel attacked for believing the 28FB.

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