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Re: The King of the North [Re: dedication] #195097
10/20/22 10:25 PM
10/20/22 10:25 PM
Kevin H  Offline
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Originally Posted by dedication
As mentioned in another thread, the term "new theology" as generally used by Adventists in the negative sense, is anyone who comes up with a theology (old or new) that weakens or erodes any of the seven pillars of Adventism. (1. Salvation by faith in Christ, 2. the Sabbath, 3. truth about death and the resurrection, 4. the sanctuary where Christ is high Priest and the judgment, 5. nature of Christ's second coming, the millennium, and post millennium events, 6. God as a personal Being - personality of God, 7. The Spirit of Prophecy.)

.


Just a question; since Adventists called Mrs. White's post-1888 writings and lectures as "New Theology" and yes, given in a very negative sense by many, I don't see how her "New Theology" despite it's criticism even to members claiming that she apostatized, did any eroding of the 7 pillars.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Kevin H] #195100
10/21/22 01:31 AM
10/21/22 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Kevin H


Just a question; since Adventists called Mrs. White's post-1888 writings and lectures as "New Theology" and yes, given in a very negative sense by many, I don't see how her "New Theology" despite it's criticism even to members claiming that she apostatized, did any eroding of the 7 pillars.

SOME Adventists (not all by any means) felt she was undermining some of their standard arguments and their influence, and felt threatened . But, No, she didn't erode any of the 7 pillars, though some of her critics thought she did.

There is progressing into deeper understanding of truths which is GOOD. And there is progressing away from truth into stuff that undermines the truth. We need to pray for discernment and the Holy Spirit in order to detect the difference.


Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195101
10/21/22 02:47 AM
10/21/22 02:47 AM
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Back to the King of the North in Daniel 11
We covered verses 1-29 in a previous post,
seeing a continuous flow through history, covering the 70 weeks in verses 1-21.
Then covering the time leading up to 538 in verses 22-29.
Now we enter into 1260 and 1290 years -- the papal years.

30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

After the league Rome made with Christianity in 313, it was the emperor that had considerable authority over the church. Presiding over their councils, etc. But Rome was loosing territory to the barbarians. In verses 25-29 we see the emperor, especially Justinian, making a last attempt to restore the Roman empire -- drive out the Vandals from Africa in the South, and the Ostrogoths from Rome.

But the ships come against him ???
One of the biggest things that stopped Justinian and prevented him from maintaining his new conquests was something that spread rapidly, by ship, trade and the transportation of armies, throughout the Mediterranean territory. A deadly plague killed millions, and Constantinople was heaviest hit. Approximately 40% of the population of Constantinople perished from the plague and about 25% of the empire?s population (50 million) died.

The wars cleared the lands around Rome of barbarian control. Due to the plague, and wars threatening from the east, emperor Justinian left off reconquering and maintaining the original Roman territories and returned to Constantinople. Thus the Roman seat was vacant and ready for papal control.

Intelligence with them that forsake the covenant.
Justinian passed the torch to the pope.
Emperor Justinian published and addressed the Pope of Rome as the acknowledged head of all the churches (not just the Western churches, but ALL the churches), with the authority to uphold church doctrines by force. Since then the Pope has assumed the garb of representative of Jesus Christ on Earth.






Re: The King of the North [Re: dedication] #195106
10/21/22 05:46 PM
10/21/22 05:46 PM
Kevin H  Offline
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New York
Originally Posted by dedication
Originally Posted by Kevin H


Just a question; since Adventists called Mrs. White's post-1888 writings and lectures as "New Theology" and yes, given in a very negative sense by many, I don't see how her "New Theology" despite it's criticism even to members claiming that she apostatized, did any eroding of the 7 pillars.

SOME Adventists (not all by any means) felt she was undermining some of their standard arguments and their influence, and felt threatened . But, No, she didn't erode any of the 7 pillars, though some of her critics thought she did.

There is progressing into deeper understanding of truths which is GOOD. And there is progressing away from truth into stuff that undermines the truth. We need to pray for discernment and the Holy Spirit in order to detect the difference.



Exactly. Sadly, there was a train of thought in Adventism that had become fearful of her later writings and gave warnings about her "apostacy" however, after she died, they sweeped this part of their history under the rug, turned her into a saint who was completely faithful to their view of Adventism.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195131
10/29/22 06:13 AM
10/29/22 06:13 AM
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Danel 11 continued:
vs 20 Birth Christ
vs 21 Dictatorial Emperors, since Rome is no longer a republic now emperors control the Roman Empire
vs 22 Death of Christ and fall of Jerusalem by Rome (Romes destroying "f"lood" affects Christians as well)
vs 23 League is made between Rome and Christianity 312 AD
vs 24 Bishop of Rome given prestige over other bishops and exalted by Rome
25-30 Wars against barbarians. Rooting out three horns -- especially the driving out of the Vandals in northern Africa, (the bread basket of Rome)
Justinian's wars to reunite Roman Empire at first with a measure of success -- falters, -
vs 30 Ships bring plague to Mediterranean lands, further defeating Justinian's plans, driving him back to Constantinople.
Justinian's new code of law includes law in which Pope is head of all churches and sits in the seat of Rome.

Against the holy covenant
We see several references that there is an attack on the COVENANT in these verses. ( vs 28 and 30 )
I see this as an attack on the true gospel of Christ.

Justinian had considerable
intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. He himself was a persecutor of any Christians that did not agree with his version of Christianity. Many fled to Gothic kingdom in Italy. After driving the Goths out of Rome (535?554), Emperor Justinian I forced the Goth appointed Pope Silverius to abdicate and installed Pope Vigilius; Justinian next appointed Pope Pelagius I, to replace Vigilius before allowing the church to select their pope in the future, Thus enforcing his version of religion on the west, as well as giving the pope authority over all churches with the responsibility of enforcing the "accepted" form of Catholisms and persecuting "heritics".

Though the position of the papacy was already growing strong even before Justinian. We are now entering the Papal era in Daniel's prophecy.

Attack on Christ's Daily Ministry


vs 31 An army was given to the papacy. An important point in weaning themselves away from Emperor control.
Damiel 11.31
And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily (Christ's continuous priestly work will be removed from people's understanding) , and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
This corresponds to
Daniel 8:11-12
?And by him the daily was taken away and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily and he cast truth down to the ground.?
Daniel 12:11
?From the time that the daily is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up; there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.?


When the Papal power receives an army, the abomination that makes desolation is set up, and Christ?s heavenly ministry is obscured by force for 1290 day/years.
Yes, the Roman power had helped build up the papacy, but now the papacy was fighting to come out from under the control of the emperor and establish it's supremacy as a higher voice than that of government.
It was the conversion of the Frank king, Clovis,(508) that supplied the Papacy with an army. If it weren?t for the Franks, the Papacy would not have had the power she had during the middle ages.

32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.''

So we see the Pope depending upon the ?sword? of Frankish kings to subdue the people under his ecclesiastical control. Yet he also had great flattering control over the people as they came to believe that the church actually had the power to save or condemn. They began to believe that the pope and his priests really did hold the so called ?keys? to the kingdom. To gain the authority over the kings and people, the papacy used the power of the ?keys?, granting absolutions to sin to those who executed their will, and eternal delights to those who upheld her cause, while damning to everlasting hell ,and excommunicating, thus depriving from the supposed salvic sacraments, those who were against her cause. As well as granting other incentives.

But God still had his people. They weren't silent.





Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195172
11/14/22 01:59 PM
11/14/22 01:59 PM
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The next verses speak of God's true followers throughout the 1260 years and to the end.

11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be helped with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
11:35 And [some] of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.


Who are these people? They are the ones who are hiding in the wilderness for 1260 years as Revelation 12 tells us. They were the Waldenses, the Huguenots, the Albigenses. They were the mighty reformers, who at the peril of their lives stood up to proclaim the errors of the established church and sent the people back to Bible religion.

Daniel 7:25 also describes these many days (1260 day/years) when God's saints will fall by the sword and flame, by captivity and blunder...to refine them and purify them until the time of the end, because it is for an appointed time.
And what is the appointed time of this persecution? Daniel 12:7 says it is for a time, times and half a time (1260 years) that the power of the holy people shall be shattered.

?Yet they that understand shall instruct many?
This corresponds with Rev. 11: 3

"I will give power to my two witnesses and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days (1260 day/years) clothed in sackcloth."
During the wilderness condition, God indicated that the true church, though under a long period of strong opposition and persecution would continue to carry the gospel to the world. They had the whole BIBLE both NT and OT and risked their very lives to share its message.

But God is always with His people, even when it seems all forces are against them. The greatest "help" was their trust in God and the knowledge of the hereafter with HIM.

In the twelfth chapter of Revelation we also read that God?s people will be HELPED.
Rev. 12.16
And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Yet flattery did more damage than the persecution. Many a brave reformer who had re-established truths, gained supporters, achieved a ?respectable? standing and stopped advancing. Indeed, many of them, in turn persecuted, or sanctioned the persecution of those who sought fuller truth.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195220
12/03/22 03:09 AM
12/03/22 03:09 AM
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Daniel 11:36 begins with a formula that has been seen three times elsewhere in the chapter, and once in chapter 8.
"He will do as he pleases" "according to his will"

11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvelous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

1. Daniel 8:4 The (Persian) ram "he did according to his will, and became great"

2. Dan 11:3 A mighty king (of Greece) shall stand up and do according to his will

3. Dan 11:16 Another king (Rome) comes against the previous one and "shall do according to his own will"

4. Dan 11:36 "The king (Papal Rome) shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, (Papal Rome)

Four different times that statement is being made.
The first is that the Persian ram would do as he pleased (8:4).
The second is that Alexander the Great would do as he pleased (11:3).
The third is that the Roman power which dislodged the Seleucids would do as it pleased. (11:16). And the fourth is that the Roman Papal power which had been active throughout vss. 30-35 The article implies this king is not new, he has been busy in vss. 30-35 and he would do as it pleased him (11:36).

Each new occurrence of the formula makes a new statement and has
reference to a different historical entity.
And those entities referred to are following the same sequence as the ones in Daniel 2, 7 and 8.
Rome (the last of the world empires) is subdivided, appearing in two distinct phases. The political iron Rome first, then the mixture of iron and clay, papal rome.

Verses 30-35 tell what the papacy does.
Verses 36-39 those verses give us insight into the attitudes which motivate such behavior.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195227
12/06/22 03:13 AM
12/06/22 03:13 AM
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We already know from verse 30 -32 that God's covenant of salvation was under attack by the papal system:
11:30-32 indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily [Christ's continual ministry], and they shall place the abomination [counterfeit worship system] that maketh desolate. And do wickedly against the covenant..


What is God's covenant?

  • *In a nutshell it is God's promise to take away sin and offer eternal life. (Romans 11:27)]
    *Its central point is Christ, the prince of the covenant, His death on the cross, by which He gives forgiveness and cleansing to all who come to Christ. He is ministering for us in the heavenly sanctuary. (1 John 1:9 and 2:1-3)
    *It offers a changed lives -- "For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people. [Hebrews 8:10] *
    *Those who by faith take hold of the covenant, will keep God's commandments, including the Sabbath. (See Rev. 14:12 and Isaiah 56:6)
    *They join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keeps the sabbath from polluting it, and takes hold of my covenant.

    *To turn against God's commandments and willfully continue in sin is an attack on the covenant and deprives those people of the covenant's benefits. (Hebrews 10:26-27]



How did the papacy attack God's covenant?

  • *The papal church basically usurped the continual ministry of Christ. They cast down the place of Christ's heavenly sanctuary. Instead of looking to the heavenly high priest in the heavenly sanctuary, earthly priests administered forgiveness, penance, etc, and even a regular bloodless sacrifice (mass). .

    *The papal church set itself over God's commandments, They removed the second commandment altogether, and openly and forcefully pushed out the seventh day Sabbath of the fourth commandment to set up their own Sunday in its place.


Other texts in Daniel speaking of the same power:
7:25 speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws
8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily [Christ's continual ministry] was taken away, and the place [not the sanctuary itself but the place] of his sanctuary was cast down. [/color]

The next texts in Daniel 11 reveal character of this power.

11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvelous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

This description is repeated in several places and points to the papal self exaltation.[/color]
Paul foretells the same thing:
2 Thess. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day, [the day of Christ's coming, shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
1 Thess 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.



And Daniel is repeating the same characteristics in an earlier chapter

Daniel 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes;


The Reformers recognized these passages to refer to the papacy, who has place placed himself in the place of God to people.
The members of the papal system who are elevated to positions of ecclesiastical power are supposedly above the normal "desire" to have a relationship with a woman. Celibacy is considered a virtue of superior godliness,


11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

Honour the power of state armies:
Compare the phrase "God of forces" with a previous phrase. "his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power". The papacy relied on the state armies to enforce it's dogmas. Once the nations refused to use their armies to enforce religious dogmas, the papacy lost it's might. However that wound heals in the last days, thus we see in Revelation this same power, called spiritual Babylon, rises again in the time of the end, but it will come to its end..

Honor with gold, silver and precious things"
To gain the support of the kings and their armies, favors were granted, bribes were paid . The popes crowned emperors, while archbishops crowned kings.
Note in Revelation when, in the future, spiritual Babylon falls, how it affects the the monetary world. Obviously this system was honouring them with gold, silver, and precious things.
Rev. 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
18:12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,



11:39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge [and] increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
Papal influence and power over the nations

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195249
12/15/22 03:47 AM
12/15/22 03:47 AM
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In verse 40 we come to the time of the end. The final conflicts.
Treading of unfilled prophecy isn't easy. But as it is being fulfilled we will say, "This is it" God knew all along.

Daniel 11:40 ?At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through.
41 He shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many countries shall be overthrown; but these shall escape from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon.
42 He shall stretch out his hand against the countries, and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
43 He shall have power over the treasures of gold and silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt; also the Libyans and Ethiopians shall follow at his heels.
44 But news from the east and the north shall trouble him; therefore he shall go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many.
45 And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him.

12:1 ?At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.




Much conjecture has taken place concerning these verse.
Is it a literal battle, or just a spiritual battle?
Everything else in chapter 11 has been about literal events The activities, battles, and treatment of God's people, can all be traced in history.

The king of the north has followed the line established in Daniel's other visions. Thus the king of the North would stay in that line up (though he probably has many allies), the papacy, all through history gets it's political strength by working through kings, and emperors.

Who is the king of the south? Daniel's other visions don't seem to have any king of the south. In Daniel 11 the king of the south always seems to be of the same type as the king of the North, but still with its own authority in governing, and opposing the Northern King.

First there were the Ptolemy vs Seleucids, (Both Greek kingdoms} Rome conquered the king of the south, so there was no king of the South, for awhile, |
The next king of the south then refers to the Vandals, a group of supposedly Christian, in Northern Africa, against Rome. Then the king of the south disappears again.
Finally we see the king of the south active again in these last 6 verses.
Today we see Muslims totally covering the lands of the first king of the South; all across northern Africa, Egypt, Arabia and more. There are considerable similarities between the Muslims and the Christians, yet these two are opposed to each other. Though the papacy is trying to bring them together and according to the prophecy Egypt, Libyans, Ethiopians will eventually changing sides to support the king of the north.

The messages from the east and the north (not the king of the north for the king of the north gets frantic when he hears their plan)s, bring interesting thoughts as to their identity, especially in light of alliances forming right now




Last edited by dedication; 12/15/22 04:00 AM.
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195278
12/26/22 01:50 PM
12/26/22 01:50 PM
Daryl  Offline

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Don't stop now, as there must be more to this than that.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

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