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Isaiah 45:7 #189411
05/18/19 01:24 AM
05/18/19 01:24 AM
APL  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
ISAIAH 45:7
 
Some of the verses in the bible are mind boggling. Hebrew words can mean two opposite things. This means translators can choose a meaning that is according to their belief system. For instance, take the verse that says:
 
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create calamity: I the LORD do all these things.
 
The word "create" before the words "darkness" and "calamity" is the same word--bara'; this word means "to create," but it also means "to cut down." If we rewrote the verse with this new meaning, the text changes considerably:
 
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light and cut down darkness, I make peace and cut down calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.'
 
EGW
 
It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth {COL 415.3}
 
The mystery of the cross explains all other mysteries. In the light that streams from Calvary, the attributes of God which had filled us with fear and awe appear beautiful and attractive. Mercy, tenderness, and parental love are seen to blend with holiness, justice, and power. While we behold the majesty of his throne, high and lifted up, we see his character in its gracious manifestations, and comprehend, as never before, the significance of that endearing title, our Father. {GC88 652.1}
 
Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted. Whatever attitude he might assume, he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts, and before them accuse Christ’s brethren of being clothed with the garments of blackness and the defilement of sin. The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken. Yet Satan was not then destroyed. THE ANGELS DID NOT EVEN THEN UNDERSTAND ALL THAT WAS INVOLVED IN THE GREAT CONTROVERSY. The principles at stake were to be more fully revealed. And for the sake of man, Satan’s existence must be continued. Man as well as angels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness. He must choose whom he will serve. {DA 761.4}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Isaiah 45:7 [Re: APL] #189425
05/18/19 12:44 PM
05/18/19 12:44 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
ISAIAH 45:7
 
Some of the verses in the bible are mind boggling. Hebrew words can mean two opposite things. This means translators can choose a meaning that is according to their belief system. For instance, take the verse that says:
 
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create calamity: I the LORD do all these things.
 
The word "create" before the words "darkness" and "calamity" is the same word--bara'; this word means "to create," but it also means "to cut down." If we rewrote the verse with this new meaning, the text changes considerably:
 
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light and cut down darkness, I make peace and cut down calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.'
 
EGW
 
It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth {COL 415.3}
 
The mystery of the cross explains all other mysteries. In the light that streams from Calvary, the attributes of God which had filled us with fear and awe appear beautiful and attractive. Mercy, tenderness, and parental love are seen to blend with holiness, justice, and power. While we behold the majesty of his throne, high and lifted up, we see his character in its gracious manifestations, and comprehend, as never before, the significance of that endearing title, our Father. {GC88 652.1}
 
Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted. Whatever attitude he might assume, he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts, and before them accuse Christ’s brethren of being clothed with the garments of blackness and the defilement of sin. The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken. Yet Satan was not then destroyed. THE ANGELS DID NOT EVEN THEN UNDERSTAND ALL THAT WAS INVOLVED IN THE GREAT CONTROVERSY. The principles at stake were to be more fully revealed. And for the sake of man, Satan’s existence must be continued. Man as well as angels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness. He must choose whom he will serve. {DA 761.4}


In The Ministry of Healing Mrs. White quotes the exact words of the Bible on this text: "I form the light, and create darkness" (p. 414, par. 2; cf. PK 315.2). Being a prophet who sometimes informed us of anomalies in the Bible's translation, her silence, when quoting it as written, is significant. She aligned herself with the "create" translation. She chose, in that reference, and perhaps all others, not to highlight the second part of the verse which says "create evil," but in Hebrew the two words translated as "create" are identical, down to their Qatal participle, masculine singular absolute grammatical forms. Both "darkness" and "evil" in that verse are masculine singular, agreeing with these verbs.

When you have learned a little more Hebrew you will see that in this verse the correct translation can only be "create." This is because the verb is of the Qatal form. It only means "cut down" when it occurs in the Piel form. If it's in the Hiphil form it could mean "to make yourselves fat." Obviously, just because in another form the verb can have one of these alternate meanings, it does not follow that it should have one of those meanings here, when it is in neither of those forms.

Hebrew has verb conjugations nearer to Spanish, but even more complex yet. However, even in English we should easily recognize when a word form can denote an entirely different meaning. Consider the sentence: "I could have any woman I please; I just haven't pleased any yet!" The two "please" verbs in that sentence have obviously different meanings.

In conclusion, the Hebrew word in this case is properly translated as "create." It could not be translated with the Piel meaning here because the verb is of the Qatal form.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Isaiah 45:7 [Re: APL] #189427
05/18/19 02:51 PM
05/18/19 02:51 PM
APL  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Actually - EGW understood that meaning. And the added quotes give us ample reason for the alternative reading. But, you are free to believe what you want even it is a lie.
 
God help us to be Bible students. Until you can see the reason for it yourself and a "thus saith the Lord" in the Scriptures, don't trust any living man to interpret the Bible for you. And when you can see this, you know it for yourself, and know it to be the truth of God. You will say, "I have read it, I have seen it, and my own heart takes hold upon it, and it is the truth God has spoken to me from His Word." Now this is what we are to be--individual Christians. We need to have an individual, personal experience. We need to be converted, as did the Jews. If you see a little light, you are not to stand back and say, "I will wait until my brethren have seen it." If you do, you will go on in darkness. {FW 77.3}
 
The argument of the absence of coomment is answered by so much of her writing which cannot be ignored. She also writes:
 
More and more I shall present the message to the people in Scripture language. Then if exception be taken by anyone, his contention must be with the Bible. {Lt244-1906}
 
I'll stick with the picture of God that Jesus revealed, the opposite of Satan. God destroys no man. the inevitable results of sin death, not execution. God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. He removes evil, He does not create it.
 
Thinking of Green:
I am now instructed that I am not to be hindered in my work by those who engage in suppositions regarding its nature, whose minds are struggling with so many intricate problems connected with the supposed work of a prophet. My commission embraces the work of a prophet, but it does not end there. It embraces much more than the minds of those who have been sowing the seeds of unbelief can comprehend. {Lt244-1906}
In response to the enemy’s work on human minds, I am to sow the good seed. When questions suggested by Satan arise, I will remove them if I can. But those who are picking at straws had better be educating mind and heart to take hold of the grand and soul-saving truths that God has given through the humble messenger, in the place of becoming channels through whom Satan can communicate doubt and questioning. {Lt244-1906}
 
To allow images of straw to be created as something to attack is one of the most unprofitable things that one can engage in. It is possible for one to educate himself to become Satan’s agent in passing along his suggestions. As fast as one is cleared away, another will be proffered. {Lt244-1906}
 
I have been instructed to say: “The Lord would not have my mind thus employed. I have written something on the meaning of the words ‘I,’ ‘we,’ and ‘us’ in the testimonies. This point is, as it were, a man of straw, set up in the imagination of some who have been sowing tares.” {Lt244-1906}
 
It would be better for some had they spent in Bible study the time that they have spent in seeking to undermine confidence in the testimonies that God has given. It is time for weak, sinful men to humble themselves in the dust. {Lt244-1906}
 
More and more I shall present the message to the people in Scripture language. Then if exception be taken by anyone, his contention must be with the Bible. {Lt244-1906}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Isaiah 45:7 [Re: APL] #189428
05/18/19 03:41 PM
05/18/19 03:41 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
APL,

I'm a little concerned for you. With the passing of time, you seem less and less able to follow a conversation. Please take care of your health. I hope you get enough vitamin B12.

I have certainly not undermined Ellen White's writings. I referred to them positively in my last post. I'm surprised that you should think as you do here. You should know very well that I respect and believe all that Ellen White has given us. I have equated her writings with those of the Bible on more than one occasion here.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Isaiah 45:7 [Re: APL] #189431
05/18/19 09:41 PM
05/18/19 09:41 PM
dedication  Online Content

Global Moderator
5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,821
Canada
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create calamity: I the LORD do all these things.


Darkness is the absence of light.
One does not create darkness, it's there by default if the light is removed.
There is no source of darkness in this universe. There is only the presence of light and the absence of it.


The verse uses this scientific fact to illustrate peace --
Remove the peace that only the source of peace can shine into our lives, and by default there is no peace only calamity and trouble.

"There is no peace for the wicked." Is. 57:21
And yet even in a world of calamity, those with Christ, the Prince of peace, can have peace that passeth understanding.

" the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Phil. 4:7


Isaiah's context:

45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. ...


45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.


God is LIGHT! In Him is no darkness at all. Without Him nothing would exist. He created all things perfect and GOOD! But God created intelligent beings with the power to forsake righteousness, reject the light and do evil. The ensuing darkness is the result of rejecting God's light. Yet God works through the evil to help us come to the light and value and love the light.



Jesus' own words:

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
3:20 For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
3:21 But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

3:36 He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.


Re: Isaiah 45:7 [Re: APL] #189438
05/19/19 01:00 AM
05/19/19 01:00 AM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
amen dedication.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Isaiah 45:7 [Re: APL] #189442
05/19/19 04:49 AM
05/19/19 04:49 AM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: APL
ISAIAH 45:7
 
Some of the verses in the bible are mind boggling. Hebrew words can mean two opposite things. This means translators can choose a meaning that is according to their belief system. For instance, take the verse that says:
 
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create calamity: I the LORD do all these things.
 
The word "create" before the words "darkness" and "calamity" is the same word--bara'; this word means "to create," but it also means "to cut down." If we rewrote the verse with this new meaning, the text changes considerably:
 
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light and cut down darkness, I make peace and cut down calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.'
 

When God says that He forms light and creates darkness, He means what He says. We know this because in Genesis (1:3), it says that He "divided the light from the darkness". Think of a room full of light and you flipping the switch. What ensues would be your own creation: darkness. You would have plunged the occupants of the room into darkness causing many to ask, "WHO DID THAT?" You. You would be the one who had actively and deliberately created that darkness.

Now look at God's word Is. 45:2-3,

"I [God] will go before you [Cyrus]
And make the crooked places straight;
I will break in pieces the gates of bronze
And cut the bars of iron.
I will give you the treasures of darkness
And hidden riches of secret places,
That you may know that I, the Lord,
Who call you by your name,
Am the God of Israel."


In short, ALL things belong to God. He created things in the open that we see and things in the dark that we don't see. And whatever it is that we don't see is because he Himself shrouded those things in darkness of His own making -- until such time as He chooses to reveal them.

///

Re: Isaiah 45:7 [Re: APL] #189444
05/20/19 10:04 AM
05/20/19 10:04 AM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
John 8:12 Then spoke Jesus again to them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

James 1:13-17 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man: (14) But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. (15) Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death. (16) Do not err, my beloved brothers. (17) Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom is no ficklenss, neither shadow of turning.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. No, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, You shall not covet.

1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

1 John 4:8 He that loves not knows not God; for God is love.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Isaiah 45:7 [Re: APL] #189447
05/20/19 02:34 PM
05/20/19 02:34 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
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If we measure darkness in degrees of light it implies there is always some darkness. First day light and fourth day light are different forms of light - not different degrees of darkness. First day light is not dependent on the sun or the revolution of the Earth. When A&E rebelled in Eden, Jesus withdrew the first day light. In its absence there are certain things we cannot see with the naked eye - angels, for one.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." This is truth in the same sense Jesus hardens the hearts of impenitent people. Peace happens when people live in harmony with God's will, and evil happens when people choose to rebel against God's will. In a manner of speaking, therefore, Jesus creates peace and evil.

Re: Isaiah 45:7 [Re: Mountain Man] #189448
05/20/19 11:54 PM
05/20/19 11:54 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
If we measure darkness in degrees of light it implies there is always some darkness. First day light and fourth day light are different forms of light - not different degrees of darkness. First day light is not dependent on the sun or the revolution of the Earth. When A&E rebelled in Eden, Jesus withdrew the first day light. In its absence there are certain things we cannot see with the naked eye - angels, for one.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." This is truth in the same sense Jesus hardens the hearts of impenitent people. Peace happens when people live in harmony with God's will, and evil happens when people choose to rebel against God's will. In a manner of speaking, therefore, Jesus creates peace and evil.

  • Here, wear these spectacles and you'll see (Is. 45:2-3):

    "I [God] will go before you [Cyrus]
    And make the crooked places straight;
    I will break in pieces the gates of bronze
    And cut the bars of iron.

    I will give you the treasures of darkness
    And hidden riches of secret places,
    That you may know that I, the Lord,
    Who call you by your name,
    Am the God of Israel."


    God actively created darkness, evil, misery and pain in His judgment against Babylon.
     
  • In the exodus, He Himself separated the camps of Israel and Egypt this way:

    "And the Angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud went from before them and stood behind them. So it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel. Thus it was a cloud and darkness to the one, and it gave light by night to the other, so that the one did not come near the other all that night." Exodus 14:9-20

    God formed the light for His people and created darkness over all their enemy. This is NOT about the physics of the electromagnetic spectrum, but about God actively doing things: staying and destroying one in preserving the other.
     
  • But APL is suffering from Hemianopsia



///

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