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Re: 4th Quarter 2022 Future Hope [Re: dedication] #195143
11/03/22 01:04 AM
11/03/22 01:04 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Read 2 Corinthians 5:18-21. If Christ died for the sins of the whole world, why won't everyone be saved? Why does personal choice play the crucial role in determining who will be saved by the cross and who will be lost despite the great sacrifice made in their behalf?

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Re: 4th Quarter 2022 Future Hope [Re: dedication] #195146
11/03/22 09:12 PM
11/03/22 09:12 PM
Kevin H  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 550
New York
In Adventist history we find two different understandings of hell fire; one view, which is often used for evangelism, and thus has been the most well known view: that is the taking the traditional Catholic/Baptist hell of a literal fire of the same nature of what we get when we light a match or from a volcano, and burn people as long as they deserve then they are finally burned up.

The second view was taught by people such as a friend of the White's an elder Fifefield, and later by Lynn Harper Wood and many of his students. In this view the "fire" is the fire of God's love, beauty, character and glory.

God treats everyone the same; the cross has saved all of us. But it is a oneness of salvation and freedom of choice. In this second view, hell fire is not some divine spanking. But where God shows up in person and treats us all the same.

A way how I understand it, God created us so that our deepest desire is to want to be like and with Jesus; and this has been emphasized in the promise of Genesis 3:15. Jesus is the lily of the valley, the one sweeter than honey and the honey comb. The desire of ages, the desire of all nations, the one beloved of women. "When we love the world as Jesus has loved it then for us his mission is accomplished; we are fitted for heaven for we have heaven in our hearts" DA 641

However, with sin we have our sinful nature. I like what Mrs. White wrote in the communion chapter of the Desire of Ages "There is in man a disposition to esteem himself for highly than his breathern to serve self to seek the highest place and often this results in evil surmisings and bitterness of spirit."

I also like how the philosopher/poet Eli Siegel put it: "There is in every person a disposition to think they are for themselves by making less of the outside world."

These two parts of us affect everything we do. Even our best is tainted with selfishness, and even at our worst we are trying to make the world into our picture of what it should be so that we can like it. Even our desire of heaven is tainted with selfishness.

When Satan comes claiming to be Jesus, teaching many of the same truths, doing amazing miracles, and the demons impersonating our loved ones (and as no one can continue to stick their head in the sand, and realize that the same criticisms that have been brought against Mrs. White also applies to the Bible. -- Sadly, too many who claim to be "Bible Believers" actually have a faith built on the human philosophy of "Fundamentalism" Not a faith built on the Bible) The 144000 will feel like that this is indeed Jesus and our loved ones, and they will see that the Bible does not fit Fundamentalism. They will hold to the Bible, despite it not being what the Fundamentalists say it it; and thus the 144,000 will feel like they are going to be lost for rejecting this majestic being, and for holding on to that book. This will be the closest they get to not having selfishness in their choice until they reach glorification.

We are sinners because we have that disposition. Jesus was just like us, except that he did NOT have any selfishness, did not have the disposition to think he was for himself by esteeming himself above others, to serve self to seek the highest place or any other way of making less of the outside world.

At the end of the thousand years, the lost see the city, and like what Hezekiah thought would impress the Babylonians, so the lost will see our "stuff" inside the city, and like the Babylonians, want to conquer and get the stuff: But then "fire comes down from God out of heaven."

This fire is seen in the two options mentioned above. In the second view, the fire that comes down from God out of heaven is where God himself, our Lord Jesus shows up in person. This changes everything. The saved have learned that it is heaven to be in this fire. (Prophets seeing God in vision responded as if they were being burned alive; but came to understand that they could not only survive, but came to thrive in living in this fire and hated to leave it to come back to minister to us.) The saved has allowed God to heal us from the disposition to make less of the outside world. The saved have gotten to know this attitude to where they develop a habit of choosing against it.

The lost have let this disposition take control over their lives. However, Jesus is still their DEEPEST desire. They long to run into his welcoming arms; but they refuse to yield to him. They want to but won't, He is their deepest desire, but as they contrast themselves to his purity, unlike the saved who cast our crowns down and sing "Worthy, worthy, worthy is the Lamb!" the lost are unforgiving people and are unable to comprehend God's forgiveness. Their minds picture what they would do to someone like them if they were the pure and holy God, and yes, He may look all loving and welcoming now, but sooner or later He will learn what I am and will get me for my sins" and they pull back from the only source of life, torturing themselves with what they imagination God should do to them.

But yet, Jesus is their deepest desire. They want to be with him more than they wanted anything ever before.

They see loved ones in the city who they miss and long to be with. But they also remember how they would take advantage of these loved ones and how if they were inside the city, how they would still take advantage of these loved ones; as well as seeing others who they simply abused and would still abuse if they were inside the city; and they know that the one sitting on the throne knows the deepest darkest corners of their lives and heart, and they pull back.

Yet, Jesus is sill their deepest desire.

Their inability to comprehend his forgiveness; and even though their deepest desire is to be with Him, they have in life chosen against the pleading of the Holy Spirit to their heart and have allowed the disposition to esteem themselves above others and make less of the outside world control their lives; and they find themselves unable to give up this habit. Instead of choosing the heaven of all reality, they have in life formed their own morbid heaven of the pleasure of conquest, dismissal, complaining, criticizing, despising. the little thrill that we feel even when things go wrong and thus we knew life was out to get us.

But Jesus is still their deepest desire.

The horror of hell is not the oweie of touching a hot stove; the horror of hell is that the deepest part of you sees all you have ever longed for and beyond your dreams right there for the taking, but they have destroyed their will, they are slaves to their feelings, and their feelings picture what God would do to them so they refuse to yield to His beauty; a power that attracts them more than the attraction between the most powerful magnets, but they refuse to yield. This intensity of the attractiveness of the beauty and love and glory of Jesus, and their refusal to submit quite literally rips them apart and destroys them.

The ministry and death of Jesus has reconciled us to God. On God's side of the equation universalism is true; but on the side of the lost; they find living with this God who is so pure, and who they imaging should do all types of things to them for their sins, so they pull away from the only source of life. All they ever wanted, even way beyond their wildest dreams is right there for the accepting; but they just don't. This is even a worst torture than a divine spanking of the flames that is in the traditional Catholic/Baptist hell.

Hell is locked from the inside.

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Re: 4th Quarter 2022 Future Hope [Re: dedication] #195154
11/08/22 03:55 PM
11/08/22 03:55 PM
dedication  Online Content
OP
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Excellent depiction, Kevin, of the emotional agony of the lost, when they see what they lost and realize what Christ had provided for their salvation, but they rejected.
Sadly, their agony is not due to sin, they do not repent, just in agony over what they lost.
They not only see the grandeur of the city, they also see revealed " the final scenes?the patient Sufferer treading the path to Calvary; the Prince of heaven hanging upon the cross; the haughty priests and the jeering rabble deriding His expiring agony; the supernatural darkness; the heaving earth, the rent rocks, the open graves, marking the moment when the world's Redeemer yielded up His life.
As they watch, the sense of God's justice and love overwhelms them, and they acknowledge His justice in leaving them outside the city. But then they turn against Satan and each other in a frenzy of desperation, the turmoil is terrible. The turmoil is ended by the fire. (Some have speculated that they detonate their weapons of mass destruction meant to take the city and that causes the fire, but that is speculation)

I do believe there is a very literal fire, one that ends all sin and totally cleanses the earth in a very literal way.
2 Peter 3:10 (KVJ) ? ?But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.?
GC ?Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.? Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass?a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men??the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion.? Isaiah 34:8.
The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They ?shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts.? Malachi 4:1.

But yes, the emotional agony will be very real for the lost, a quick end may well be a blessing not a curse


But no one needs to be in that crowd!

We read the following this morning from MARANATHA
Quote:
"God has made every provision for the salvation of every person on earth. They just need to respond to His love and come to Him, now.
think of the emotional joy of saved which can be ours!!!

The love of God is without measure, without comparison! It is infinite.... When we contemplate the dignity and glory of Christ we see how great was that love that prompted the sacrifice made upon the cross of Calvary for the redemption of a lost world. This theme will fill the saints with wonder and amazement through eternal ages, and why should we not meditate upon it here in this world? ...

O the mystery of godliness?God manifest in the flesh! This mystery increases as we try to comprehend it. It is incomprehensible, and yet human beings will allow worldly, earthly things to intercept the faint view it is possible for mortals to have of Jesus and His matchless love.... How can we be enthusiastic over earthly, common things and not be stirred with this picture?the cross of Calvary, the love that is revealed in the death of God's dear Son ...?

All this humiliation and anguish were endured to bring back the wanderers, guilty and thankless, to the Father's house. O the home of the blest?I cannot afford to lose it! I shall, if saved in the kingdom of God, be constantly discerning new depths in the plan of salvation. All the redeemed saints will see and appreciate as never before the love of the Father and the Son, and songs of praise will burst forth from immortal tongues. He loved us, He gave His life for us.
With glorified bodies, with enlarged capacities, with hearts made pure, with lips undefiled, we shall sing the riches of redeeming love. There will be no suffering ones in heaven, no skeptics whom we must labor to convince of the reality of eternal things, no prejudices to uproot, but all will be susceptible to that love which passeth knowledge. Rest, thank God, there is a rest for the people of God, where Jesus will lead the redeemed into green pastures, by the streams of living waters which make glad the city of our God. Then the prayer of Jesus to His Father will be answered: ?I will that they also, whom thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am. EGW Maranatha 318

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Re: 4th Quarter 2022 Future Hope [Re: dedication] #195155
11/08/22 04:00 PM
11/08/22 04:00 PM
dedication  Online Content
OP
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This week;s lesson is on the resurrection. Paul mentions in 1 Cor. 15 that if Christ were not resurrected even those who believe and have faith in His life and death would still perish. Why is belief in the resurrection of Christ so important?

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Re: 4th Quarter 2022 Future Hope [Re: dedication] #195160
11/12/22 12:30 AM
11/12/22 12:30 AM
dedication  Online Content
OP
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Why is the resurrection so important?

17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.
if Christ has not been raised from the dead, he would not be the victorious Saviour. If He is still in the grave, the penalty of sin has laid claim upon Him, showing He did not live a sinless life. He would not have conquered sin; sin would have conquered him (15-17). Those who died believing in Christ would likewise have been for ever conquered by sin and death, they are not forgiven, for Christ could not forgive them. And if He didn?t rise again, neither would anyone else. As for those believers still living, they are to be pitied for putting up with hardship in the hope of a better life to come.

A pretty dismal picture if Christ had not risen! The cross would not have achieved anything.

BUT

Christ is risen!
He did live a sinless life.
The grave could not hold Him.
He conquered sin and the grave.
And because He lives we can have glorious future in Him!
Amen!

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Re: 4th Quarter 2022 Future Hope [Re: dedication] #195161
11/12/22 07:47 AM
11/12/22 07:47 AM
Daryl  Offline

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Posts: 25,010
Nova Scotia, Canada
From today's reading in Maranatha:

Eye Hath Not Seen, Nor Ear Heard

Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 1Corinthians 2:9.


Those who truly love God will desire so to improve the talents that He has given them, that they may be a blessing to others. And by and by the gates of heaven will be thrown wide open to admit them, and from the lips of the King of Glory the benediction will fall upon their ear like richest music, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matthew 25:34). Thus the redeemed will be welcomed to the mansions that Jesus is preparing for them. There their companions will not be the vile of earth, but those who through divine aid have formed perfect characters. Every sinful tendency, every imperfection, has been removed by the blood of Christ; and the excellence and brightness of His glory, far exceeding the brightness of the sun in its meridian splendor, is imparted to them. And the moral beauty, the perfection of His character, shines through them in worth far exceeding this outward splendor. They are without fault before the great white throne, sharing the dignity and privileges of the angels.

"Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." In view of the glorious inheritance which may be his, "What shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" (Matthew 16:26). He may be poor; yet he possesses in himself a wealth and dignity that the world could never bestow. The soul, redeemed and cleansed from sin, with all its noble powers dedicated to the service of God, is of surpassing worth.

To dwell forever in this home of the blest, to bear in soul, body, and spirit, not the dark traces of sin and curse, but the perfect likeness of our Creator, and through ceaseless ages to advance in wisdom, in knowledge, and in holiness, ever exploring new fields of thought, ever finding new wonders and new glories, ever increasing in capacity to know and to enjoy and to love, and knowing that there is still beyond us joy and love and wisdom infinite--such is the object to which the Christian's hope is pointing.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: 4th Quarter 2022 Future Hope [Re: dedication] #195162
11/12/22 07:49 AM
11/12/22 07:49 AM
Daryl  Offline

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A pretty wonderful picture because Christ has risen!


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: 4th Quarter 2022 Future Hope [Re: dedication] #195164
11/12/22 08:18 PM
11/12/22 08:18 PM
Kevin H  Offline
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Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 550
New York
The events in Gethsemane and the cross shows what sin does to us. Mrs. White gives details that the Bible implies, on how the separation from his Father was so intense that he barely felt the physical pain of the beatings, flogging and cross.

Same with the lost, many people want there to be some sort of literal fire of the same nature that we get when lighting a match or visiting a volcano; However the intensity of their attraction to Christ, yet their refusal to yield to this drawing power is just what the trinity went through as our sins separated them from each other. If God were to add some kind of divine spanking to inflect physical pain as Nebuchadnezzar tried with the worthy three, or what was done to people such as Jon Huss and Joan of Arc; the pain of the flames or any other physical hurting to punish that God could inflect would be hardly noticed. It would be like tossing a lit match into what is already a raging forest fire.

While in the passion we see what sin does to us, in the resurrection we are shown that if we choose to be with God, just as the members of the trinity choose to be with each other; all the sins of the world could not separate us from the loving arms of God.

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Re: 4th Quarter 2022 Future Hope [Re: dedication] #195165
11/12/22 08:30 PM
11/12/22 08:30 PM
Kevin H  Offline
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Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 550
New York
It would be wise to collect (they are free on the internet) and read in one seating

Why was sin permitted, from Patriarchs and Prophets (the first sentence answers the question, the rest is expansion of the first sentence.

The origin of Evil from The Great Controversy

God made manifest in Christ from Signs of the Times January 20, 1890

Gethsemane from the Desire of Ages

And these lays a foundation to the crown jewel that came from Mrs. White's pen: It is Finished from the Desire of Ages.


After reading these in one sitting and allow thoughts of them to take root and sprout in your mind; then you can look at other things such as the other chapters and articles on the passion, and the chapter He is Risen from Desire of Ages, and the descriptions of hell in Great Controversy, where Mrs. White quotes many of the fire texts; but then turns from them as she makes a concrete application in the statement "The glory of Him that is love will consume the wicked."

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Re: 4th Quarter 2022 Future Hope [Re: dedication] #195186
11/18/22 08:12 PM
11/18/22 08:12 PM
dedication  Online Content
OP
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"How might we be able to help someone caught up in the idea of the secret rapture to see why this teaching is wrong?"
What difference does it make?

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