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Who are the twenty four elders of Revelation? #195314
01/07/23 09:36 AM
01/07/23 09:36 AM
Rick H  Offline
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We see several text of the twenty four elders in scripture..
Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

So what do these twenty four elders mean and where do they come from. The Levitical priesthood was divided into twenty-four courses and it was there at the time of Jesus. We see its continuance in Zacharias in Luke 1:5-9, when the angel came to tell him while he was in the temple that he would have a son, who was John the Baptist.

"5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
7 And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years.
8 And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest's office before God in the order of his course,
9 According to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord." Luke 1:5-9.

John in Revelation, saw four and twenty elders seated upon four and twenty seats, and they worshiped the Lamb, saying, ?Thou hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; and hast made us unto our God kings and priests.? (Rev. 4:4; 5:8-10) In this we see the antitype of the twenty-four courses of priests. The chiefs, or elders, of each course have seats of honor, and they are kings and priests after the order of Melchizedek. Now we see the following in Matthew 27:50-53..

"50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." Matthew 27:50-53.

We see in Matthew the first fruits of those who rise from the dead after the resurrection of Christ, do they constitute the four and twenty elders? We see in Ephesians a clue: ?Wherefore he saith, When he [Christ] ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.? The marginal reading is, he led a ?multitude of captives.? Eph.4:8. Is there a answer hidden in plain sight?
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Re: Who are the twenty four elders of Revelation? [Re: Rick H] #195324
01/11/23 01:36 AM
01/11/23 01:36 AM
Kevin H  Offline
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I'm sorry Rick, but while this is a very popular speculation, at least among Adventists, at both Atlantic Union College (an Adventist college) and at the Jerusalem Center for Biblical Studies, the professors gave some very strong Biblical arguments that the 24 Elders are how heaven ACTIVELY communicates with the church on earth: The testimony of the 12 tribes and the testimony of the 12 apostles, who's testimony is preserved in the Holy Bible.

Re: Who are the twenty four elders of Revelation? [Re: Rick H] #195331
01/11/23 11:06 PM
01/11/23 11:06 PM
dedication  Offline
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We don't know who the 24 elders are, I would say, both interpretations above are speculation, both based on possible evidence, but still speculative.

The Adventist pioneers, James White, Stephen Haskell, Uriah Smith all seem to agree that the 24 elders are individuals who have been redeemed from earth, and probably ascended with Christ to heaven after Christ's resurrection.

There are others that say the 24 elders are representatives from the unfallen worlds (the Adams of other worlds) who are carefully following the progression of sin and God's dealing with sin on earth.
--All the other worlds were affected by satan's rebellion and charges. All are very interested in how God deals with the issues and see HIS Character being vindicated beyond all their expectations.
This passage from Ellen White is quoted by that group:.
Quote
There is the throne, and around it the rainbow of promise. There are cherubim and seraphim. The commanders of the angel hosts, the sons of God, the representatives of the unfallen worlds, are assembled. The heavenly council before which Lucifer had accused God and His Son, the representatives of those sinless realms over which Satan had thought to establish his dominion,--all are there to welcome the Redeemer. They are eager to celebrate His triumph and to glorify their King. {DA 834.1}


The problem is -- every explanation presented has problems that don't match all the descriptions of the elders.


EGW White calls the 24 elders, ANGELS.

In referring to Rev. 5:5 where one of the elders tells John "weep not", she writes
Quote
John was distressed at the utter inability of any human being or angelic intelligence to read the words, or even to look thereon. His soul was wrought up to such a point of agony and suspense that ONE OF THE STRONG ANGELS had compassion on him, and laying his hand on him assuringly said, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof" (20MR 197.3; Capital Emphasis Added).


And in another passage, dealing with Revelation 7:13-14 where one of the elders asks John, who are these who are dressed in white robes, she writes:
Quote
The ANGEL inquires of John, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? and John answers, Sir, thou knowest. THEN THE ANGEL DECLARES: These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (ST December 22, 1887, par. 7; Capital Emphasis Added).


In Revelation 5:8 the twenty-four elders have censors or vials containing the prayers of the saints.
Some see the following quote as connecting the elders with censors as the highest Angels:

Quote
"Heavenly beings are appointed to answer the prayers of those who are working unselfishly for the interests of the cause of God. THE VERY HIGHEST ANGELS IN THE HEAVENLY COURTS ARE APPOINTED TO WORK OUT THE PRAYERS WHICH ASCEND TO GOD for the advancement of the cause of God. Each angel has his particular post of duty, which he is not permitted to leave for any other place. If he should leave, the powers of darkness would gain an advantage" (LHU 370; Capital Emphasis Added)


However, the term "angels" can have more than one meaning as well.

"

Re: Who are the twenty four elders of Revelation? [Re: Kevin H] #195332
01/12/23 08:29 AM
01/12/23 08:29 AM
Rick H  Offline
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Florida, USA
Originally Posted by Kevin H
I'm sorry Rick, but while this is a very popular speculation, at least among Adventists, at both Atlantic Union College (an Adventist college) and at the Jerusalem Center for Biblical Studies, the professors gave some very strong Biblical arguments that the 24 Elders are how heaven ACTIVELY communicates with the church on earth: The testimony of the 12 tribes and the testimony of the 12 apostles, who's testimony is preserved in the Holy Bible.

I have many friends from AUC, and never came across that.

Re: Who are the twenty four elders of Revelation? [Re: dedication] #195333
01/12/23 08:44 AM
01/12/23 08:44 AM
Rick H  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,100
Florida, USA
Originally Posted by dedication
We don't know who the 24 elders are, I would say, both interpretations above are speculation, both based on possible evidence, but still speculative.

The Adventist pioneers, James White, Stephen Haskell, Uriah Smith all seem to agree that the 24 elders are individuals who have been redeemed from earth, and probably ascended with Christ to heaven after Christ's resurrection.

There are others that say the 24 elders are representatives from the unfallen worlds (the Adams of other worlds) who are carefully following the progression of sin and God's dealing with sin on earth.
--All the other worlds were affected by satan's rebellion and charges. All are very interested in how God deals with the issues and see HIS Character being vindicated beyond all their expectations.
This passage from Ellen White is quoted by that group:.
Quote
There is the throne, and around it the rainbow of promise. There are cherubim and seraphim. The commanders of the angel hosts, the sons of God, the representatives of the unfallen worlds, are assembled. The heavenly council before which Lucifer had accused God and His Son, the representatives of those sinless realms over which Satan had thought to establish his dominion,--all are there to welcome the Redeemer. They are eager to celebrate His triumph and to glorify their King. {DA 834.1}


The problem is -- every explanation presented has problems that don't match all the descriptions of the elders.


EGW White calls the 24 elders, ANGELS.

In referring to Rev. 5:5 where one of the elders tells John "weep not", she writes
Quote
John was distressed at the utter inability of any human being or angelic intelligence to read the words, or even to look thereon. His soul was wrought up to such a point of agony and suspense that ONE OF THE STRONG ANGELS had compassion on him, and laying his hand on him assuringly said, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof" (20MR 197.3; Capital Emphasis Added).


And in another passage, dealing with Revelation 7:13-14 where one of the elders asks John, who are these who are dressed in white robes, she writes:
Quote
The ANGEL inquires of John, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? and John answers, Sir, thou knowest. THEN THE ANGEL DECLARES: These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (ST December 22, 1887, par. 7; Capital Emphasis Added).


In Revelation 5:8 the twenty-four elders have censors or vials containing the prayers of the saints.
Some see the following quote as connecting the elders with censors as the highest Angels:

Quote
"Heavenly beings are appointed to answer the prayers of those who are working unselfishly for the interests of the cause of God. THE VERY HIGHEST ANGELS IN THE HEAVENLY COURTS ARE APPOINTED TO WORK OUT THE PRAYERS WHICH ASCEND TO GOD for the advancement of the cause of God. Each angel has his particular post of duty, which he is not permitted to leave for any other place. If he should leave, the powers of darkness would gain an advantage" (LHU 370; Capital Emphasis Added)


However, the term "angels" can have more than one meaning as well.



Well, much like the sanctuary in the wilderness was patterned according to a heavenly model, it could be the 24 elders were according to what was already in heaven. Will have to research further...

Re: Who are the twenty four elders of Revelation? [Re: Rick H] #195334
01/12/23 11:07 AM
01/12/23 11:07 AM
Daryl  Offline

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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
Originally Posted by dedication
The Adventist pioneers, James White, Stephen Haskell, Uriah Smith all seem to agree that the 24 elders are individuals who have been redeemed from earth, and probably ascended with Christ to heaven after Christ's resurrection.

As this is also how I think I understand it, we also need to research further into that.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Who are the twenty four elders of Revelation? [Re: Rick H] #195336
01/12/23 05:58 PM
01/12/23 05:58 PM
dedication  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,411
Canada
Questions raised on each interpretation:

24 elders are the resurrected saints that ascended with Christ
This view has many strong points. But questions are raised:

1. Both the 24 elders AND the four living creatures voice the praise song, "You were slain and have redeemed US to God by Your blood".
Comparing the living creatures to Ezekiel's depictions, these are cherubim or seraphim (angels) not redeemed people. If the four living creatures were not included as singing the song, it would be a strong indication the 24 elders are redeemed.
Some Greek students say the word "us" can be "them" and is thus translated in several Bible versions.

2. Crowns and white robes, and harps, all things promised to those who overcome and are redeemed, they are strong points for this interpretation. But one can argue that angels also have these. Especially in the book "Early Writings" by Ellen White we read: "The news of man's fall spread through heaven. Every harp was hushed. The angels cast their crowns from their heads in sorrow" EW 148 and several other similar paragraphs in that book.

3. Some regard Revelation 5 as Christ's triumphal entry into heaven as conqueror over sin and death at His ascension. The great sadness of John because no one could open the scroll, signifying that up to that point the whole plan of salvation was not yet ratified until the one slain for mankind's redemption appeared. The 24 elders being already among the heavenly hosts waiting eagerly to welcome Him as He now begins His work as the mediator of the covenant, would not be just arriving.

The 24 elders are representatives of other worlds.

1. This view is rather weak. It's based on one quote from EGW stating that the "sons of God" were present in the heavenly assemble welcoming Christ when He ascended to heaven, and coupling that thought with the gathering of the sons of God in Job 1 and 2 where satan joined as the representative from this earth.
2. Would Representatives from other worlds be engaged in the work outlined for the 24 elders in Revelation, having censors with the prayers of the saints, or explaining things to prophets like John?
3. They are not really permanent residents in the heavenly throne room, their work would be connecting and representing their own world with heaven.
The Bible speaks very little of them.

The 24 elders are symbolic of heaven's communication system with earth through Old and New Testament, etc.

I'm not really knowledgeable on this view. It's one that was more popular in non-Adventist circles, but is now creeping in to Adventist circles, as Kevin pointed out.

In Revelation 11 we have the two witnesses who are symbolic of the Old and New Testament, so the concept is not totally unfamiliar. Yet the difference between the two witness and the 24 elders is quite large.
All the actions of the two witnesses can be traced in Biblical stories or events. Their witness is linked to Bible stories. The clues in their description are strong these two witnesses represent the Bible.

On the other hand, the 24 elders are far more personal. They explain things to John, they interact with him on a personal level. They react and interact with things happening in heaven.
They are NOT just symbols, they are beings going about their work.
I'm not comfortable in spiritualizing them away, even if we don't understand everything about them.

The earthly priesthood as a type of things in heaven

This includes the idea of a special group of high angels that are the antitype of the 24 chief priests over the 24 courses of priests in the earthly sanctuary.
In Chron. 24 we find there were 24 common courses of priests and there were twenty-four chief men sometimes called governors of the sanctuary, over these these courses of priests.

The 24 elders have censors "golden vials full of odors which are the prayers of the saints".
They work with Christ in His priestly ministry in an intercessory capacity.

This view is often also attributed to redeemed saints as filling this role as well. But EGW does call the elder talking with John, a "strong angel" thus a special group of strong angels could be the antitype of the 24 chief governors or priests in the earthly sanctuary.

The objections to this view"
1. Jesus is our high priest, we don't need any more priests in heaven.








Re: Who are the twenty four elders of Revelation? [Re: Rick H] #195340
01/13/23 01:25 PM
01/13/23 01:25 PM
Daryl  Offline

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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
Then what can be considered the correct view?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Who are the twenty four elders of Revelation? [Re: Daryl] #195342
01/13/23 04:11 PM
01/13/23 04:11 PM
dedication  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,411
Canada
Originally Posted by Daryl
Then what can be considered the correct view?

Some things we, as finite beings, don't fully understand. Therefore it's rather pointless to become dogmatic about these things. One thing we do know, is that God has a great plan of salvation at work for us, which involves a lot more than we realize. There are 24 elders with censors containing our prayers, we can be sure our prayers all reach heaven.
Heaven is extremely interested in saving us!

However, the main objection to the first interpretation to the 24 elders being resurrected saints, my be resolved by going back to chapter 4 in Revelation

The four living Creatures, who are definitely seraphim, may just be LEADING the outburst of praise , while 24 elders respond.

Quote
Revelation 4 Verses 8-11. And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth forever and ever, the four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


Though in chapter 5, it does say they all fall down before him.


Re: Who are the twenty four elders of Revelation? [Re: dedication] #195344
01/13/23 09:31 PM
01/13/23 09:31 PM
Rick H  Offline
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Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,100
Florida, USA
Originally Posted by dedication
Originally Posted by Daryl
Then what can be considered the correct view?

Some things we, as finite beings, don't fully understand. Therefore it's rather pointless to become dogmatic about these things. One thing we do know, is that God has a great plan of salvation at work for us, which involves a lot more than we realize. There are 24 elders with censors containing our prayers, we can be sure our prayers all reach heaven.
Heaven is extremely interested in saving us!

However, the main objection to the first interpretation to the 24 elders being resurrected saints, my be resolved by going back to chapter 4 in Revelation

The four living Creatures, who are definitely seraphim, may just be LEADING the outburst of praise , while 24 elders respond.

Quote
Revelation 4 Verses 8-11. And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth forever and ever, the four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


Though in chapter 5, it does say they all fall down before him.




Notice the part " and cast their crowns before the throne", that is very telling..

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