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Re: Lesson #10 - The Meaning of His DEATH [Re: Rosangela] #100012
06/16/08 02:08 PM
06/16/08 02:08 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Tom, as you can see, not everyone is in agreement with your views regarding the sin debt of death Jesus paid for us on the cross. You have ignored my posts on this thread for the last couple of days. I'm not sure why. The quotes I've been posting clearly reveal what God shared with Sister White about it. They represent God's thoughts on the matter.

God has "bound" Himself by His word, by His law, and by His justice to enforce the execution of the death penalty upon sinners. Whether or not this or that father of past generations understood it in the same light is immaterial. They were either in the throes of the Dark Ages or still coming out of it. God raised up the Remnant Church after the Great Disappointment and revealed His thoughts on the matter through a modern day messenger. Here is what He said:

“By His word God has bound Himself to execute the penalty of the law on all transgressors.” (6BC 1095)

“In the plan of redemption there must be the shedding of blood, for death must come in consequence of man’s sin.” (CON 22)

“Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man’s stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon.” (1SM 340)

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Re: Lesson #10 - The Meaning of His DEATH [Re: Mountain Man] #100022
06/16/08 06:04 PM
06/16/08 06:04 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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I think the legal aspect is important for two reasons.

1) For God to act in harmony with His own character.

God will soon vindicate His justice before the universe. His justice requires that sin shall be punished; His mercy grants that sin shall be pardoned through repentance and confession. Pardon can come only through His only begotten Son; Christ alone can expiate sin--and then only when sin is repented of and forsaken. Man has severed his connection with God, and his soul has become palsied and strengthless by the deadly poison of sin. But there was a time when the proclamation sounded through the heavenly courts, I have found a ransom! A divine life is given as man's ransom; One equal with the Father has become man's substitute. {UL 49.5}

2) Because all Satan’s charges were based on the law. Therefore, God had to find a way to legally pardon man, otherwise Satan would accuse Him of injustice.

“In the opening of the great controversy, Satan had declared that the law of God could not be obeyed, that justice was inconsistent with mercy, and that, should the law be broken, it would be impossible for the sinner to be pardoned. Every sin must meet its punishment, urged Satan; and if God should remit the punishment of sin, He would not be a God of truth and justice. When men broke the law of God, and defied His will, Satan exulted. It was proved, he declared, that the law could not be obeyed; man could not be forgiven. Because he, after his rebellion, had been banished from heaven, Satan claimed that the human race must be forever shut out from God's favor. God could not be just, he urged, and yet show mercy to the sinner.” {DA 761.4}

“By dying in our behalf, he gave an equivalent for our debt. Thus he removed from God all charge of lessening the guilt of sin. By virtue of my oneness with the Father, he says, my suffering and death enable me to pay the penalty of sin. By my death a restraint is removed from his love. His grace can act with unbounded efficiency.” {YI, December 16, 1897 par. 7}

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Re: Lesson #10 - The Meaning of His DEATH [Re: Rosangela] #100028
06/17/08 01:03 AM
06/17/08 01:03 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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"By my death a restraint is removed from his love." I wonder what kind of restraint she is talking about? Do you know?

Here are other places where she speaks of God loving us if we ...

Provision has been made whereby God can love us as He loves His Son, and it is through our oneness with Christ and with each other. {TMK 172.3}

Christ has shown us how much God can love and our Redeemer suffer in order to secure our complete restoration. {UL 191.2}

We are to be one with Christ as He is one with the Father, and the Father will love us as He loves His Son. {AG 259.5}

If we love Jesus we shall become heirs of God, and the Father will love us as He loves His Son Jesus Christ. {HP 254.5}

The Lord then can love fallen man as He does His own Son; and He declares that He will be satisfied with nothing less than this in our behalf. {1MCP 245.4}

This will raise fallen man; for the Lord has promised that if we preserve this unity, God will love us as He loved His Son; the sinner will be saved, and God eternally glorified. {SD 295.4}

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Re: Lesson #10 - The Meaning of His DEATH [Re: Rosangela] #100044
06/17/08 06:21 PM
06/17/08 06:21 PM
Tom  Offline
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Debbie, when one is accustomed to seeing something in a certain way, it's difficult to see things in a different way. For example, the Jews were accustomed to seeing Jesus as a conquering Messiah, and indeed, there are many, many texts which present this idea. So because they were accustomed to looking at things in a certain way, they missed some things.

Here are some "what if" questions I quoted a couple of posts previously:

What if the Fall of Genesis is not about the violation of a law, necessitating punishment. Perhaps it is about the venom of deception concerning God’s character and this led (and leads) humankind to partake of the poison fruit (anything from hedonism to moralism), requiring healing?

What if, rather than separating us from the love of God, the Fall triggered God’s great quest to descend into the chasm to seek and find the lost where they had stumbled? What if where sin abounds, grace abounds much more?

What if forgiveness is not something that is earned through sacrifices or punishment but is freely offered as antivenin to all who will look to the Crucified One after the pattern of the bronze serpent?

What if God was not punishing Jesus on the Cross, but rather, God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself?


I'd be interested in your thoughts regarding these questions.

Regarding Jesus' teaching, the particular point I have been taking issue with is that Jesus' death is necessary in order for God to be able to legally pardon us. Jesus did not teach this. His teachings represent God as freely forgiving us, not because a price was paid. For example, in the parable of the prodigal son, the wayward son couldn't even get out his rehearsed speech, the father was so happy to see him. Another example is in the parable of the 10,000 talents, the king (representing God) freely forgave the debt. In Jesus' own life, we see Him freely forgiving, which represents God's freely forgiving, since when we see Jesus, we see the Father.

Regarding the question regarding the fathers, my point is a bit indirect. I'm asking if the penal substitution theory is indeed Biblical, why did no one express it before Calvin? We (as SDA's) have doctrines which are unusual considering mainstream Protestantism, such as the Sabbath, the state of the dead, not eating unclean meat to name a couple, but these ideas can all be found in the writings of Christians shortly after Christ.

Something as fundamental as the meaning of Christ's death (assuming penal substitution is it) is something one would have expected to have been explained by Jesus Christ Himself, and written about sometime before 16 centuries after His death.

One further comment, you wrote:

 Quote:
In Isaiah 53 we see the suffering servant who's stripes were to heal us.


This is exactly what I believe. We are healed by Christ's death. Healing is exactly what we need. Not penal substitution, but healing.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #10 - The Meaning of His DEATH [Re: Rosangela] #100045
06/17/08 07:04 PM
06/17/08 07:04 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
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 Quote:
T: “The Eastern Orthodox church does not accept Anslem's idea of satisfaction. Why not? Because they split off from the Catholic church before Anselm penned it. Their principle reason for rejecting the view is precisely because it doesn't appear in either the Scriptures or the writings of the fathers.”
R: You don’t seem to be understanding that the idea of satisfaction and the idea of a debt owed to God that had to be paid are one and the same thing.
T: This isn't true. I previously quoted from C. S. Lewis who agrees with the idea of a debt being paid, but not with the idea of satisfaction, which should be sufficient to establish this point.

R:The difference is in the nature of the debt.


You wrote that I don't seem to be understanding that the idea of satisfaction and the idea of a debt owed to God that has to be paid are one and the same thing. They aren't one and the same thing. Satisfaction is of necessity a debt owed to God, but a debt owed to God is not of necessity satisfaction. Therefore they are not one and the same thing.

I appreciate the comments regarding patristic literature. I'll comment later.

Regarding something we were discussing earlier, I'm a bit unclear regarding whether you view God to be treating the wicked and the righteous differently. I wrote:

 Quote:
Let's go back a moment to the question of why the wicked did in the end. It the sin is removed, then they will be OK because, to use my phrasing, the revelation of God's character will cause them no harm, since they are not clinging to sin (to use your phrasing, God's abhorrence of sin will cause them no harm). So the problem is simply one of their not clinging to sin. If a person does not cling to sin, that person will be fine.


Rosangela, I didn't see your post #100022, which may be addressing this last point.

Last edited by Tom Ewall; 06/17/08 07:42 PM. Reason: missed post

Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #10 - The Meaning of His DEATH [Re: Rosangela] #100047
06/17/08 07:07 PM
06/17/08 07:07 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Tom, ignoring Colin's and my comments is not going to make them go away. Eventually you'll have to address them.

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Re: Lesson #10 - The Meaning of His DEATH [Re: Mountain Man] #100061
06/18/08 01:13 AM
06/18/08 01:13 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Tom, you do err by missing the facts for the logic which you cite in the letter of the texts of Christian literature. Equally, you do not recognise the opposite explanation when stated in excerpts quoted for you: that Justin Martyr dialogue a case in point.


Are you talking about this?

 Quote:
Justin [Martyr]'s answer to Trypho is an unequivocal affirmation of penal substitution. He asks why, if Christ bore not his own but our curse, Trypho resists: 'If, then, the Father of all wished his Christ for the whole human family to take upon him the curses of all, knowing that, after he had been crucified and was dead, he would raise him up, why do you argue about him, who submitted to suffer these things according to the Father's will, as if he were accursed, and do not rather bewail yourselves?'


 Quote:
Historical literature has value for showing development and aberration, but you fail to grapple with the totality of up-to-date literature of the published SOP view points on the atonement.


What are you referring to here?

 Quote:
MM and Rosangela have provided the evidence, but you hold to logic so tenuously you fail to understand the facts around you on this thread or in your library at home. You aren't ignoring these facts as non-existent are you?


What are you referring to here?

 Quote:
A debt is a penalty owed - that is linguistics and common sense.


No, this isn’t correct. A great majority of debts have nothing to do with penalty. A debt is simply something owed.

 Quote:
Death for sin is both natural and defined beforehand by the law!! Animal sacrifices REPLACED this death due us sinners, starting with Adam, premised on the promise of the Saviour: the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ was seen by faith by every believer since Adam - though Cain learned this lesson the hard way...! HAVING offered another life instead of his own, the sinner was personally "freely" pardoned, since the debt of giving a life - the penalty for every sinning yet "living soul"!! - bought pardon for mortal life to continue, and immortal life to follow.


If Jesus had not died, we would have died. God gave us Christ so that we need not die. Christ’s death substitutes for us because without it we would have suffered His death. I believe one can rightly infer this from the sacrificial system. So I basically agree with this paragraph, although I see the penalty as not an arbitrary or imposed one, but simply as the result of sin (that is, the law pronounces death as the result of sin because those who sin die; even if the law did not pronounce this, it would still be true).


 Quote:
This supported by Bible and SOP: it's not systematic theology - as someone might think themes congregate, it's "Biblical theology" as the spirit of the text expands the context from beginning to end and from any text to and from any text. I learned this from those I consider the best Bible teachers of our church, past and present.

You don't like violence, do you?


You do?

 Quote:
God CAN'T be VIOLENT?!! - can he? Nevermind the plagues of Egypt and the time of trouble to come; let alone the licence the Devil gets to wreak havoc and destruction, and misery: That WAS WAR in heaven, and the Son of God himself "repented" of making man, in holy indignation: God personally unleashed the forces of nature against man and beast. It wasn't God 'Letting go control' of nature, or even just withdrawing his protection, for that doesn't fit God's methods or ends of judging, as that constitutes the 'luck of anarchy', and God is not anarchic! Judgement is deliberate, lawful and the death penalty for sin IS destructive...! Saving the world from judgement of guilt for sin requires a legally recognised Saviour from guilt, sin and death.


It seems clear to me that Jesus was non-violent, and demonstrated that God is non-violent, as the whole purpose of Jesus’ mission was the revelation of God. He told us, “When you’ve seen Me, you’ve seen the Father.“ His teachings on the Sermon on the Mount I think are particularly clear regarding Jesus’ ideas in regards to violence.

Regarding the war in heaven, from the SOP we know:

a.Force is not a principle of God’s government.
b.Compelling force is not to be found in God’s government, only in Satan’s.
c.Force is the last resort of every false religion.

From “The Desire of Ages“

 Quote:
Christ bowed His head and died, but He held fast His faith and His submission to God. "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." Rev. 12:10.
Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted. Whatever attitude he might assume, he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts, and before them accuse Christ's brethren of being clothed with the garments of blackness and the defilement of sin. The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken. (DA 761)

Satan was vanquished not by force, but by revelation. He was “cast down” by way of Jesus Christ’s revealing Satan’s true character. The Great Controversy is not a war of force or violence, but of ideas.

 Quote:
Death is needed to take away sin, not so, but being pardoned the paying of a penalty/debt for sin and guilt without the substitute payment - that is arbitrary, for having no basis in God's law or his justice, and fails to save from the judgement of death against sin.


I have no idea what you’re trying to say here.

 Quote:
Jesus saves us from sin AND death...!!

Agreed!! Saving us from sin is *how* He saves us from death.

 Quote:
If you do not understand our (joint) explanation of salvation on this thread - also saved from guilt (which is what is pardoned, y'know!...:-)) - by Jesus' death (his life and resurrection, too...), then you need specialist help with your logical fallacies, since you remain with a flawed theology of an incomplete Gospel, which is a grave issue.:-)

You know, I can hardly think of 3 people who have more *different* views of salvation than you, MM and Rosangela. I find it odd indeed you’re wanting to joint your theology with theirs. To illustrate the point, it would be really interesting to have you, MM and Rosangela write out what you understand Romans 5:12-18, and Romans 7:13-Romans 8:4 means. I trust you would agree that these passages are vital insofar as one's understanding of salvation is concerned, yet if you were to do as I suggested, you would see that your viewpoints vary greatly. You would also find that my point of view is closest to your own.

It also strikes me as odd that someone who holds such a non-mainline view in regards to the Godhead that you hold who take the overall stance that you take. Regarding your statement that guilt is what is pardoned, I am reminded of the following by E. J. Waggoner:

 Quote:
Notice in the above account that the taking away of the filthy garments is the same as causing the iniquity to pass from the person. And so we find that when Christ covers us with the robe of His own righteousness, He does not furnish a cloak for sin but takes the sin away. And this shows that the forgiveness of sins is something more than a mere form, something more than a mere entry in the books of record in heaven, to the effect that the sin has been cancelled. The forgiveness of sins is a reality; it is something tangible, something that vitally affects the individual. It actually clears him from guilt, and if he is cleared from guilt, is justified, made righteous, he has certainly undergone a radical change. He is, indeed, another person, for he obtained this righteousness for the remission of sins, in Christ. It was obtained only by putting on Christ. But "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature." 2 Cor. 5:17. And so the full and free forgiveness of sins carries with it that wonderful and miraculous change known as the new birth, for a man cannot become a new creature except by a new birth. This is the same as having a new, or a clean, heart. (Christ and His Righteousness)


Do you agree with Waggoner's points here?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #10 - The Meaning of His DEATH [Re: Tom] #100070
06/18/08 12:47 PM
06/18/08 12:47 PM
C
Colin  Offline
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Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
Is this the basis of your definition of arbitrary punishment?
 Quote:
Established by a court or judge rather than by a specific law or statute: an arbitrary penalty. (Free online dictionary)

depending on individual discretion (as of a judge) and not fixed by law <the manner of punishment is arbitrary> (Merriam-Webster's online)


How is Christ's substitution for our death not according to law, fixed by law?

What do you say to Rosangela & MM's SOP and classic quotes on justice and death penalty??

God judges with violence, including retribution for rejection of grace: that's clear from Biblical theology - drawing on all instances, like Jericho and Saul saving that king from his nation's massacre. That is true alongside "Gospel peace".

MM, Rosangela and I differ on the fine points of principles like Christ's substitution and Christ's humanity, but we agree on principles! What do you say to the proofs of the principle? Without these principles there is in fact no Gospel, since revelation of love is part of the whole but never saves by itself: implied principles are necessary.

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Re: Lesson #10 - The Meaning of His DEATH [Re: Colin] #100071
06/18/08 01:02 PM
06/18/08 01:02 PM
Tom  Offline
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Posts: 14,795
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 Quote:
MM, Rosangela and I differ on the fine points of principles like Christ's substitution and Christ's humanity, but we agree on principles! What do you say to the proofs of the principle? Without these principles there is in fact no Gospel, since revelation of love is part of the whole but never saves by itself: implied principles are necessary.


I'll respond to just this for now, and the rest as I get opportunity. Neither MM nor Rosangela have the concept of solidarity in regards to their concept of salvation that you have (at least, that I think you have). For example, they would both (I think) interpret Romans 5:18 completely differently than you would. Do you not see Romans 5:18 as important in regards to a correct understanding of the Gospel?

I am by no means alone in my understanding of the atonement among 1888 fans (by fans, I mean 1888 MSC, which I assume you have some sort of ties with; by ties, I mean, you've read their literature and by and large agreed with it; please correct me if I'm wrong about this). Also my view of the judgment is similar to many of theirs (although, to be fair, many disagree as well).

It seems to me that you may be throwing out the bath with the bath water. But I may be way off base here, so let me ask a clarifying question. Are you basically in agreement with the message that Wieland presents? (excepting questions relating to the Godhead)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #10 - The Meaning of His DEATH [Re: Tom] #100072
06/18/08 01:49 PM
06/18/08 01:49 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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God has "bound" Himself by His word, by His law, and by His justice to enforce the execution of the death penalty upon sinners. Whether or not this or that father of past generations understood it in the same light is immaterial. They were either in the throes of the Dark Ages or still coming out of it. God raised up the Remnant Church after the Great Disappointment and revealed His thoughts on the matter through a modern day messenger - Ellen White.

Tom, what do you think she meant by each of the following insights? Do they support your idea that Jesus died to influence us to respond to God's love and choose salvation, that He didn't also have to die to satisfy a legal requirement?

“By His word God has bound Himself to execute the penalty of the law on all transgressors.” (6BC 1095)

“In the plan of redemption there must be the shedding of blood, for death must come in consequence of man’s sin.” (CON 22)

“Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man’s stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon.” (1SM 340)

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