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Re: What must I do to be saved? #10058
05/21/06 09:12 PM
05/21/06 09:12 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I'm not understanding your point, Thomas. How would an unknown sin bar one from heaven? The only way I can see that happening is if the sin becomes known, and one refuses to respond to the new light.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What must I do to be saved? #10059
05/21/06 09:56 PM
05/21/06 09:56 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
I see that I was not clear enough on what I meant. I read what you wrote as quoted below and became confused, where you trying to say that a person who is not aware of all their sin cannot be forgiven of those sins that they are unaware of? I am not asserting anything of the like that there would be such a scenario, I was trying to find out wether you believed there was such a scenario.

Quote:

In order for a sin to be forgiven, it must be known, from the perspective of the person who committed the sin. That is, if I commit a sin in ignorance, I cannot be forgiven of it, unless I am made known of it. Forgiveness is not something which happens unilaterally.

From the standpoint of our personally receiving forgiveness, which involved repentance and reconciliation, we must know of the sin, as how can one repent or an unknown sin, or why would one need reconciliation for such?




Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: What must I do to be saved? #10060
05/21/06 10:03 PM
05/21/06 10:03 PM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,010
Nova Scotia, Canada
What about those, Thomas, who died believing that they day had been changed from abbath (Saturday) to Sunday?

They were sinning in ignorance, were they not?

And yet their sins of ignorance will have been forgiven, and they will be saved, will they not?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: What must I do to be saved? #10061
05/22/06 12:24 AM
05/22/06 12:24 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
No Thomas, I wasn't suggesting that scenario. What I was saying is there are two ways of looking at forgiveness. There is forgiveness from the standpoint of the one offering the forgiveness, and the one receiving the forgiveness. If you committ an offense against me, it is possible for me to forgive you, even though you are unaware that you have offended me. I can set it in my heart to not lay this offense against you. This is exactly what Stephen did to those who were stoning him, and also what Christ did as He was being crucified. This attitude will be reflected in any true follower of Christ. This is how God's attitude is towards the world.

There is also forgiveness from the standpoint of the one who committed the offense. In order for forgiveness for an offense to be received from the standpoint of the one who committed the offense, the offending party must be aware of the offense he has committed. Then he can receive forgiveness from the party he has offended.

From God's perspective, He is not holding anything against us, as it says in 2 Cor. 5:19:

Quote:

namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. (NASB)




God does not count our sins against us. However, in order for us to be forgiven, from out perspective (that is, to feel forgiven, and experience forgiveness; to be reconciled to God in our experience) we must know of how we have offended God and repent of that deed. If we don't know what we've done, we cannot receive forgiveness for that deed, even though God, from His perspective, has already forgiven us.

Since a sin of ignorance is one by definition that we are not aware of, there is no way we could have experienced forgiveness for it. But it won't bar us from heaven, because only light which has been rejected can do that.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What must I do to be saved? #10062
05/22/06 03:06 AM
05/22/06 03:06 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Quoted from Daryl post:

If a person doesn't know about it, it is still a sin; however, if that person is living up to the truth that they know, then I believe that this sin is forgiven by the Lord.

If a person, however, knows about the 7th day Sabbath, and rejects it because it is not a convenient day for worship, then it is a known sin to that person that needs to be repented of in order for it to be forgiven by the Lord.

Salvation requires repentance from all known sin and from any other sin that the Holy Spirit reveals to them and convicts them of.

Unquote.

If this person reject it because his study of the bible ensure him that Sabbath observation no longer required, is this a sin to him? How could he know the truth if no one come to teach him? How could he know the truth if the people that came to him teaching of the Sabbath was defeated because of their lack of knowledge of the Scripture or they could not express it well?

I knew that these events happened many times, so, whose fault is it? Is it his fault of rejecting the truth of the Sabbath, or is it the fault of the messenger that came to him but defeated?

In His love

James S

Re: What must I do to be saved? #10063
05/22/06 05:23 AM
05/22/06 05:23 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Quote:

1 John 1 5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.



Is this simmilar to what you are explaining Tom?

Quote:

Romans 14 22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.



Daryl, doesnt this text cover the example you gave? I also think James made a good point.
Though, Romans 14 talks more about judging (or not) the choises others make in at least these areas.

/Thomas


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: What must I do to be saved? #10064
05/22/06 01:13 PM
05/22/06 01:13 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
James, here a point to ponder:

6T 371
The Lord does not now work to bring many souls into the truth, because of the church members who have never been converted and those who were once converted but who have backslidden. What influence would these unconsecrated members have on new converts? Would they not make of no effect the God-given message which His people are to bear? {6T 370.3}

Re: What must I do to be saved? #10065
05/22/06 02:28 PM
05/22/06 02:28 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:

I knew that these events happened many times, so, whose fault is it? Is it his fault of rejecting the truth of the Sabbath, or is it the fault of the messenger that came to him but defeated?




We can be thankful that God is so kind and gracious that He takes all these things into consideration! We are quick to judge another as unworthy, especially if they disagree with us (those who agree with us automatically seem more worthy), but the Lord looks not at outward appearance, but at the heart. Also we should remember that God is not trying to keep people out of heaven, but get them in!

Anyway, your point is well-taken. It may be that a person who from our perspective has rejected truth, from the Lord's perspective has not done so. William Miller, for example, did not accept the Sabbath truth, yet EGW was shown he will be in heaven.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What must I do to be saved? #10066
05/22/06 02:36 PM
05/22/06 02:36 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Yes, Thomas, that fits in. I was originally responding to Daryl's comment that God forgives sins done in ignorance. I was pointing out that in the sense that God forgives sins of ignorance, God forgives all sin. Known sin is treated differently because of us, not God (with the privisal that our situation necessarily requires God take that into account.)

To make an analogy. Say you offend me, but you don't know you have offended me. I have a choice to make. I can hold that offense against you, and wait for you to ask for forgiveness, or do whatever acts of pennance I think I am entitled to require of you before I forgive you, or I can freely forgive you, even before you ask. This latter option is the Spirit of Christ, and represents God's attitude.

As far as our receiving forgiveness, or experiencing it, we need to know of the offense. We cannot repent of, or be restored in relation to, an offense we do not know we are committing.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What must I do to be saved? #10067
05/23/06 02:52 AM
05/23/06 02:52 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Quote:
Anyway, your point is well-taken.
- - - - - - - - - -

Yes, it is important to master the knowledge and technique of preaching the Gospel to people, fellow Christian’s non Sabbath observance.

I have seen and followed my pastor view years ago to preach the Gospel and share the Sabbath truth to a Pentecost member, and when my pastor talked and preached this guy, he countered back so good that my pastor was speechless. What a shame! And worse, my pastor never comeback to share again the gospel to this guy.

Many people don’t know how to share the Gospel of Christ in such a way that might take interest of people, and when confronted they lack of knowledge and defeated.

The result is; the soul that we want to share the Sabbath truth becomes more confidence of his righteousness.

Whose fault is it? It is our fault.

Therefore, I always try my best to know and understand the Scripture before I go and preach people and share about the Sabbath truth. I must master any topic regarding justification by faith, sanctification, redemption, origin of sin, the Law, etc. So, when I faced a dedicated and educated non Sabbath observance, I know how to speak and how to counter his defenses and counter attack with the Scripture.

In His love

James S

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