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Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: asygo] #100516
07/04/08 02:40 PM
07/04/08 02:40 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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The Orient
Tom,

Those quotes of Ellen White notwithstanding, I've always felt that some of these questions are almost forbidden ground. Perhaps we should not be dwelling on them, because our tunnel vision of the subjects will cause us to greatly misinterpret them.

I will admit, that in my finite, limited knowledge, I have seriously questioned why it was that Jesus did not die to save the fallen angels. Why only for us? For those angels, His death was as the final nail in their coffin. But for us, it was the opposite. Why did God not make this supreme sacrifice for them?

My only answer is that Jesus died for us to teach us that of which we were completely ignorant and could not understand in another way. The angels, however, had full knowledge of God and His character, and in full view of the facts, they had made their choice in Heaven prior to being cast out. Jesus had pleaded with them, but they had rejected His offer of restoration. Lucifer was too proud to admit he was wrong--and therefore refused to repent. What they did knowingly, we did in ignorance. Their sin was magnitudes greater, and the cross forever sealed their fate.

Nonetheless, I feel questions like these are too often inspired by the Tempter himself. Satan is the one who has accused God of being unfair from the beginning, and through these questions he puts in our minds, the insinuations of unfairness can grow in our own thinking.

Let us not speak doubts, therefore, but believe and trust Him, who only loves us beyond measure and who died for us.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Green Cochoa] #100523
07/04/08 03:16 PM
07/04/08 03:16 PM
Tom  Offline
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GC, I don't see how it could be forbidden ground, since God has revealed these things to us by way of a prophet. Now if we come up with speculative theories which have no basis in truth, nor from which any benefit can come, that's another story.

 Quote:
My only answer is that Jesus died for us to teach us that of which we were completely ignorant and could not understand in another way.


Amen!

 Quote:
The angels, however, had full knowledge of God and His character, and in full view of the facts, they had made their choice in Heaven prior to being cast out. Jesus had pleaded with them, but they had rejected His offer of restoration. Lucifer was too proud to admit he was wrong--and therefore refused to repent. What they did knowingly, we did in ignorance. Their sin was magnitudes greater, and the cross forever sealed their fate.


Until the cross of Christ, the character of Satan was not totally clear to the angels. Since the GC was between Satan and God, and concerned who was telling the truth, to the extent that Satan was believed, God was being doubted. The cross removed all doubt.

I'm not sure what you have in mind in saying that the cross forever sealed their fate. Wasn't it sealed before this time?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Tom] #100529
07/04/08 03:44 PM
07/04/08 03:44 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Not until the cross.

 Originally Posted By: Ellen White

When Christ hung in agony upon the cross, while evil spirits rejoiced and evil men reviled, then indeed His heel was bruised by Satan. But that very act was crushing the serpent's head. Through death He destroyed "him that had the power of death, that is, the devil." Hebrews 2:14. This act decided the destiny of the rebel chief, and made forever sure the plan of salvation. In death He gained the victory over its power; in rising again, He opened the gates of the grave to all His followers. In that last great contest we see fulfilled the prophecy, "It shall bruise thy head, and thou shall bruise his heel." Genesis 3:15. {PK 701.3}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Green Cochoa] #100540
07/04/08 04:44 PM
07/04/08 04:44 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
The passage you deal s speakng n terms of the Great Controversy. That s, the ideas that Satan were espusng were frever dsprved. However, when he made hs decson t rebel aganst God, hs person fate was set.

 Quote:
Many were disposed to heed this counsel, to repent of their disaffection, and seek to be again received into favor with the Father and His Son. But Lucifer had another deception ready. The mighty revolter now declared that the angels who had united with him had gone too far to return; that he was acquainted with the divine law, and knew that God would not forgive. He declared that all who should submit to the authority of Heaven would be stripped of their honor, degraded from their position. For himself, he was determined never again to acknowledge the authority of Christ. The only course remaining for him and his followers, he said, was to assert their liberty, and gain by force the rights which had not been willingly accorded them.

So far as Satan himself was concerned, it was true that he had now gone too far to return. (PP 40, 41)


Satan had gone too far to return long before the cross.

Perhaps we're saying the same thing here. The cross determined Satan's fate in the sense that he had n chance of winning the Great Controversy. However, once he decided to rebel against God, that he would eventually die was certain.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Tom] #100554
07/04/08 06:49 PM
07/04/08 06:49 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
MM:If explaining that the Son of God would one day pay our sin debt of death on the cross was sufficient to safeguard Enoch, Moses, and Elijah for eternity

TE:Why are you making this assumption?

MM:Because they received eternal life in heaven without witnessing the actual life and death of Jesus.

TE: So do we. My point was the we, no less than Enoch, Moses and Elijah, receive eternal life without having witnessed the actual life and death of Jesus.

The difference is that they received it before Jesus died on the cross. They were in heaven for hundreds of years before Jesus died on the cross. If Jesus had failed on the cross, the human race would have ended at that point. My question then is - What would have happened to Enoch, Moses, and Elijah?

 Quote:
1. "Without the cross they would be no more secure against evil than were the angels before the fall of Satan." 2. "Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds."

TE: Remember there are two principles involved in the Great Controversy. To believe one is to have doubts about the other. To the extent that the angels were not sure about Satan's character, they were unsure about God's. This quote makes clear their minds weren't settled in regards to Satan until the cross.

The first quote cannot mean angels were at a disadvantage before rebellion broke out. They were secure in God's law and love before rebellion broke and before Jesus died on the cross. Jesus' death on the cross confirmed their confidence; it did not establish it.

Also, the second quote simply says the loyal FMAs finally saw through Satan's deceptions. It cannot mean they were insecure in the law and love of God until Jesus died on the cross. They were convinced God is right and Satan is wrong from the moment they chose to side with God and not with Satan. The cross confirmed their faith; it did not establish it.

 Quote:
MM: What if God had decided not to implement the plan of salvation? What would have happened to the loyal angels and loyal FMAs? Did God have to go through with the plan of salvation in order to prevent the loyal beings from rebelling, too?

TE: The above quotes make it clear that the Plan of Salvation benefited them just as it benefited us.

There are significant differences, though. The loyal FMAs were not in the same boat as us. They made the choice not to side with Satan long before Jesus died on the cross. So, even if Jesus and the Father had decided against implementing the plan of salvation, which means Jesus would not have died on the cross, the loyal FMAs were already secure and confident in His law and love. It would have changed nothing so far as their love and allegiance was concerned.

Of course, God would have had to deal with the fallen evils in some other satisfactory way, which, no doubt, He would have. Even in this case, it would have served to confirm their security and confidence in God's law and love - not establish it. Do you see what I mean?

You seem to be saying their loyalties were tentative before the cross, that their security and confidence were conditional, dependent upon Satan's final downfall - as if they were saying, "We'll love and serve you for the time being, but if you cannot eventually disprove Satan's accusations, we're going to rebel, too."

Is this what you believe?

Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Mountain Man] #100567
07/04/08 08:44 PM
07/04/08 08:44 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
[MM:Because they received eternal life in heaven without witnessing the actual life and death of Jesus.

TE: So do we. My point was the we, no less than Enoch, Moses and Elijah, receive eternal life without having witnessed the actual life and death of Jesus.

The difference is that they received it before Jesus died on the cross.


It doesn't matter. We didn't witness Christ's death any more than they did. You wrote "Because they received eternal life in heaven without witnessing the actual life and death of Jesus." I pointed out that we didn't either.

 Quote:
They were in heaven for hundreds of years before Jesus died on the cross.


Therefore the timing doesn't matter, but the revelation of Christ.

 Quote:
If Jesus had failed on the cross, the human race would have ended at that point. My question then is - What would have happened to Enoch, Moses, and Elijah?


There would have been far greater problems than this. God swore by Himself that Christ would succeed.

 Quote:
Also, the second quote simply says the loyal FMAs finally saw through Satan's deceptions. It cannot mean they were insecure in the law and love of God until Jesus died on the cross. They were convinced God is right and Satan is wrong from the moment they chose to side with God and not with Satan. The cross confirmed their faith; it did not establish it.


We're falling into a pattern here. I've presented the evidence that the angels were made secure by the cross, a clear statement which says this. I've asked you for evidence for your statements. Rather than produce any evidence, you just repeat yourself.

 Quote:
The angels ascribe honor and glory to Christ, for even they are not secure except by looking to the sufferings of the Son of God.


MM, it says "for even they *are not secure*" except for the cross.

I don't understand why you keep affirming they were already secure. Even now they aren't secure, except for the cross. Notice "for even they *are not secure*." except for the cross.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Tom] #100579
07/05/08 04:23 AM
07/05/08 04:23 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, your view leads one to conclude that the loyal angels were not secure in God's law and love until after Jesus died on the cross. If this is true, then it means their allegiance was conditional. In essence they were saying - "We'll serve you for the time being, but if Jesus fails on the cross we're going to rebel against you."

Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Mountain Man] #100659
07/06/08 10:52 PM
07/06/08 10:52 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I'm just repeating what Ellen White wrote, MM. I don't know why you are calling it my view. I would know nothing about this if it weren't for what she wrote.

Anyway, if you read the quote, I think her point is clear enough.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Tom] #100728
07/09/08 07:11 PM
07/09/08 07:11 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
TE: Anyway, if you read the quote, I think her point is clear enough.

MM: Here's the quote again:

 Quote:
The death of Christ upon the cross made sure the destruction of him who has the power of death, who was the originator of sin. When Satan is destroyed, there will be none to tempt to evil; the atonement will never need to be repeated; and there will be no danger of another rebellion in the universe of God. That which alone can effectually restrain from sin in this world of darkness, will prevent sin in heaven. The significance of the death of Christ will be seen by saints and angels. Fallen men could not have a home in the paradise of God without the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Shall we not then exalt the cross of Christ? The angels ascribe honor and glory to Christ, for even they are not secure except by looking to the sufferings of the Son of God. It is through the efficacy of the cross that the angels of heaven are guarded from apostasy. Without the cross they would be no more secure against evil than were the angels before the fall of Satan. Angelic perfection failed in heaven. Human perfection failed in Eden, the paradise of bliss. All who wish for security in earth or heaven must look to the Lamb of God. {5BC 1132.8}

The plan of salvation, making manifest the justice and love of God, provides an eternal safeguard against defection in unfallen worlds, as well as among those who shall be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. Our only hope is perfect trust in the blood of Him who can save to the uttermost all that come unto God by Him. The death of Christ on the cross of Calvary is our only hope in this world, and it will be our theme in the world to come. Oh, we do not comprehend the value of the atonement! If we did, we would talk more about it. The gift of God in His beloved Son was the expression of an incomprehensible love. It was the utmost that God could do to preserve the honor of His law, and still save the transgressor. Why should man not study the theme of redemption? It is the greatest subject that can engage the human mind. If men would contemplate the love of Christ, displayed in the cross, their faith would be strengthened to appropriate the merits of His shed blood, and they would be cleansed and saved from sin (ST Dec. 30, 1889). {5BC 1132.9}

Yes, her point is clear - "It was the utmost that God could do to preserve the honor of His law, and still save the transgressor." Jesus preserved the honor of God's law by dying on the cross. Law and justice demand death for sin. Jesus died our death so that we can life His life. Jesus saved the law so He could save sinners. The security of the unfallen beings depends upon the honor and integrity of God's law.

Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Mountain Man] #100754
07/10/08 01:00 AM
07/10/08 01:00 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
That which alone can effectually restrain from sin in this world of darkness, will prevent sin in heaven. The significance of the death of Christ will be seen by saints and angels. Fallen men could not have a home in the paradise of God without the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Shall we not then exalt the cross of Christ? The angels ascribe honor and glory to Christ, for even they are not secure except by looking to the sufferings of the Son of God. It is through the efficacy of the cross that the angels of heaven are guarded from apostasy. Without the cross they would be no more secure against evil than were the angels before the fall of Satan. Angelic perfection failed in heaven. Human perfection failed in Eden, the paradise of bliss. All who wish for security in earth or heaven must look to the Lamb of God.


I think you missed the point!

1.That which alone can effectually restrain from sin in this world of darkness, will prevent sin in heaven.

2. The significance of the death of Christ will be seen by saints and angels.

3.It is through the efficacy of the cross that the angels of heaven are guarded from apostasy.

4.Without the cross they would be no more secure against evil than were the angels before the fall of Satan.

5.All who wish for security in earth or heaven must look to the Lamb of God.

Especially point 4. You keep saying that the angels were already secure, without the cross, but point 4 says no, they weren't.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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