HOME CHAT ROOM #1 CHAT ROOM #2 Forum Topics Within The Last 7 Days REGISTER ENTER FORUMS BIBLE SCHOOL CONTACT US

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine Christian Family Fellowship Forums
(formerly Maritime SDA OnLine)
Consisting mainly of both members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church
Welcomes and invites other members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church to join us!

Click Here To Read Legal Notice & Disclaimer
Suggested a One Time Yearly $20 or Higher Donation Accepted Here to Help Cover the Yearly Expenses of Operating & Upgrading. We need at least $20 X 10 yearly donations.
Donations accepted: Here
ShoutChat Box
Newest Members
ekoorb1030, jibb555, MBloomfield, Dina, Nelson
1323 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums118
Topics9,189
Posts195,525
Members1,323
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
Seventh-day Adventist Church In Canada Links
Seventh-day Adventist Church in Canada

Newfoundland & Labrador Mission

Maritime Conference

Quebec Conference

Ontario Conference

Manitoba-Saskatchewan Conference

Alberta Conference

British Columbia Conference

7 Top Posters(30 Days)
Rick H 16
kland 15
Daryl 4
March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Member Spotlight
Kevin H
Kevin H
New York
Posts: 625
Joined: November 2004
Show All Member Profiles 
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Live Space Station Tracking
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
Last 7 Pictures From Photo Gallery Forums
He hath set an harvest for thee
Rivers Of Living Water
He Leads Us To Green Pastures
Remember What God Has Done
Remember The Sabbath
"...whiter than snow..."
A Beautiful Spring Day
Who's Online
3 registered members (Karen Y, 2 invisible), 2,795 guests, and 4 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 11 of 36 1 2 9 10 11 12 13 35 36
Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... [Re: Tom] #101321
08/04/08 09:46 PM
08/04/08 09:46 PM
S
scott  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 442
Wyoming, USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom
 Quote:
Jesus never suffered the emotion of the eternally lost because He knew His Father’s love.


I think He did suffer it. What got Him through the experience was His knowledge of His Father's love. He chose faith over feelings, but His feelings were those of the lost; all black clouds, with no hope of sun. Many Psalms bring out the despair Christ felt on the cross. To name just 3, 22, 69, 88. They speak of His crying so much that He ran out of tears. His was a one-of-a-kind suffering.

There is comfort for us in His suffering. When sin causes pain in our lives, such as taking a loved one away, we can feel so alone, that there is no one who understands our pain and loneliness; but there is One! We can sojourn to the garden, or to the cross, with Him. He had to tread the path alone, so that we can be comforted.


 Quote:
by scott: He only had his past fellowship with the Father to get Him through. He had an intimate loving trust for His Father.


Hi Tom,
I think we are saying the same thing. That Christ was stripped of all physical, mental, and emotional touchstones and left only with His trust in God and love for us to keep Him on the cross!

My definition of faith is "intimate loving trust", but I am thinking about changing it to "an intimate love of goodness" or "an intimate love of righteousness".

scott

Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... [Re: asygo] #101323
08/04/08 10:04 PM
08/04/08 10:04 PM
C
Colin  Offline
Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
 Originally Posted By: asygo
 Originally Posted By: Tom
I understood that my opinion was different than yours.

But it's not. That's the misunderstanding.
After your discussion over this, I don't think you agree.

The lost's beliefs about sin cannot essentially be correct, since they don't agree with God's truth: they think they're right. They're wrong, but their fate is right(eous), so annihilation of the wicked is God's correcting judgement - not their deluded perception of themselves. They only agree to stay away from heaven & God after they realise they were wrong. Their sinful beliefs cannot be the independent reason for their eternal death.

Belief has nothing to do with the end of sin & sinners, since they're wrong and their fate isn't. Once God has corrected their viewpoint, they agree he is right and their penalty for averting grace is divine.

Belief has nothing to do with judgement, so you don't agree.

Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... [Re: Colin] #101324
08/04/08 10:06 PM
08/04/08 10:06 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Scott, I thought we might be saying the same thing too.

Robert Wieland defines faith as "a heart appreciation of the love of God, especially as revealed on the cross."

How do you like that one?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... [Re: Tom] #101325
08/04/08 10:17 PM
08/04/08 10:17 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
The lost's beliefs about sin cannot essentially be correct, since they don't agree with God's truth: they think they're right. They're wrong, but their fate is right(eous), so annihilation of the wicked is God's correcting judgement - not their deluded perception of themselves. They only agree to stay away from heaven & God after they realise they were wrong.


If they realize they are wrong, then they are being judged in a way they recognize as correct, which would have to be according to the standard of judgment they themselves have, or else they wouldn't recognize the validity of the judgment.

 Quote:
Their sinful beliefs cannot be the independent reason for their eternal death.


This can't be the case. The root of sin is unbelief. The inevitable result of sin is death. Their belief, or, more precisely unbelief, is precisely that which results in their death.

 Quote:
Belief has nothing to do with the end of sin & sinners, since they're wrong and their fate isn't. Once God has corrected their viewpoint, they agree he is right and their penalty for averting grace is divine.


It's not just that they agree that He is right, but they want to have nothing to do with Him. They do no like God, nor His principles, nor those who love God and His principles, and choose to have nothing to do with Him or His followers. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. It is not something forced upon them against their will, but what they choose. They wouldn't make such a poor choice if it weren't for their beliefs, primarily their beliefs about God and righteousness.

 Quote:
Belief has nothing to do with judgement, so you don't agree.


Well, I don't agree with you, but Arnold said:

 Quote:
Tom:I understood that my opinion was different than yours.

Arnold:But it's not. That's the misunderstanding.


So if Arnold says I was mistaken in understanding that our opinions were different, I have to accept what he says, don't I?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... [Re: Tom] #101328
08/05/08 01:38 AM
08/05/08 01:38 AM
S
scott  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 442
Wyoming, USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom
Scott, I thought we might be saying the same thing too.

Robert Wieland defines faith as "a heart appreciation of the love of God, especially as revealed on the cross."

How do you like that one?


I love it!

Since the cross is God's ultimate revelation of love it make sense that our appreciation for the cross would cause us to love Him and long to be like Him. The law written on the heart!

scott

Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... [Re: scott] #101330
08/05/08 11:59 AM
08/05/08 11:59 AM
Rick H  Offline
OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,100
Florida, USA

Here is a good understanding of how Christ was confronted by the 2nd death...
"...In Christ's death is no hint of the Saviour's effort to win the favor of the Father. With that favor already in hand, His confidence carried Him to Calvary, despite a shuddering of His human frame. Only on the cross, confronted by withdrawal of His Father's presence in revulsion against sin, did the stark break become clear. As the veil of our guilt fell over Him, there was expressed from His lips an agonizing cry, "Why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46).
With this He slipped into the pit of the second death carrying the burden of rejection for rebellion against God. At that point He is in our place. His is the despair of lost sinners staring into a black hole of oblivion, devoid of hope. Standing in our place, "The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. (The Desire of Ages, p. 753). Death overtook Him as the abandoned sinner, alone, in the place where each of us really belongs....."

From:Why Did Jesus Die?
How God Saves Us
by George W. Reid, Former Director
Biblical Research Institute

Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... [Re: Rick H] #101332
08/05/08 02:31 PM
08/05/08 02:31 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Only on the cross, confronted by withdrawal of His Father's presence in revulsion against sin, did the stark break become clear.


I don't think this part works. God did not withdraw His presence from Christ! To the contrary, God drew near to Christ:

 Quote:
In that thick darkness God's presence was hidden. He makes darkness His pavilion, and conceals His glory from human eyes. God and His holy angels were beside the cross. The Father was with His Son. (DA 753)


The statement that "He makes darkness His pavilion" is a reverence to Psalm 18.

 Quote:
4The sorrows of death compassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid.

5The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.

6In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.

7Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.

8There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

9He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.

10And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.

11He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.


This is a little known psalm of the cross. He poetically depicts God's leaving heaven to be with His Son. The Desire of Ages passage cited gives some more detail.

Many people think that God abandoned Christ, but He didn't. God was right there with Christ. The following speaks of Christ's experience:

 Quote:
It was not the dread of death that weighed upon Him. It was not the pain and ignominy of the cross that caused His inexpressible agony. Christ was the prince of sufferers; but His suffering was from a sense of the malignity of sin, a knowledge that through familiarity with evil, man had become blinded to its enormity. Christ saw how deep is the hold of sin upon the human heart, how few would be willing to break from its power. He knew that without help from God, humanity must perish, and He saw multitudes perishing within reach of abundant help. (DA 752)


Christ's experience is similar to the wickeds' in that in neither case does God forsake either the One or the other. It is the "sense of sin" that causes one to *feel* abandoned by God. Sin causes us to believe things that aren't true, which is part of what makes it lethal. The difference between Christ and the wicked is that Christ knew His Father's true character, and was able to work out by faith alone, apart from His senses, His feelings, all that was happening around Him, what was really happening. By faith, He knew God had *not* abandoned Him, and He died triumphantly, committing Himself to God. The wicked, not knowing God, will simply be overwhelmed by sin.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... [Re: Tammy Roesch] #101335
08/05/08 03:41 PM
08/05/08 03:41 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Tammy Roesch
 Quote:
Suddenly the gloom lifted from the cross, and in clear, trumpetlike tones, that seemed to resound throughout creation, Jesus cried, "It is finished." "Father, into Thy hands I commend My spirit." A light encircled the cross, and the face of the Saviour shone with a glory like the sun. He then bowed His head upon His breast, and died. {DA 756.2}
Does this sound like the description of those who die the 2nd Death?

No. But neither does it sound like the 1st death. What it sounds like is the death of a faithful person.

However, THIS sounds like the 2nd death:
 Quote:
The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror... {DA 753.2}

When the faithful die the 1st death, they go down knowing that they will be raised conquerors. They can see through the portals of the tomb. This was not Christ's experience.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... [Re: Rick H] #101336
08/05/08 04:05 PM
08/05/08 04:05 PM
S
scott  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 442
Wyoming, USA
 Originally Posted By: Richard

Here is a good understanding of how Christ was confronted by the 2nd death...
"...In Christ's death is no hint of the Saviour's effort to win the favor of the Father. With that favor already in hand, His confidence carried Him to Calvary, despite a shuddering of His human frame. Only on the cross, confronted by withdrawal of His Father's presence in revulsion against sin, did the stark break become clear. As the veil of our guilt fell over Him, there was expressed from His lips an agonizing cry, "Why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46).
With this He slipped into the pit of the second death carrying the burden of rejection for rebellion against God. At that point He is in our place. His is the despair of lost sinners staring into a black hole of oblivion, devoid of hope. Standing in our place, "The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. (The Desire of Ages, p. 753). Death overtook Him as the abandoned sinner, alone, in the place where each of us really belongs....."

From:Why Did Jesus Die?
How God Saves Us
by George W. Reid, Former Director
Biblical Research Institute



Hi Richard,

G.W. Ried obviously believes that Christ died the second death, but does that make it so? I really like Ellen statement that he quoted. Notice how she says that it is "the veil of our guilt" that fell over Him.

Guilt is something we all carry simply because we sin and we are guilty, but most of us run from our guilt. We don’t face up to it, but find any way we can to avoid discussing it with others or even facing it alone.

There are two ways that I know of to face one’s guilt. The first is to admit we are guilty, confess to those we’ve harmed, and be willing to make amends. The second is to run until we are caught and forced to admit we are guilty. Courts are good at finding the truth.

Our guilt is in the fact that we sin. Adam might have started this whole mess, but I know that I’ve joined in his rebellion many times and done it willingly. So I’m guilty. But what is sin? It is to harm others and hurt God and others out of selfishness. It is to put “me” first at the cost of others. Jesus’ was not guilty, but placed Himself in the hands of pious murderers. Because we are guilty of sin we deserve to be left in the hands of sin and sinners. Our fate is to be destroyed by sin.

The wages of sin is death and sin pays the ultimate wage. Death by our own insane sin or death by the insanity of others. Jesus suffered the death caused by the insanity of others. He took our guilt in that He didn’t deserve any of this, but because He loves us He determined to experience the whole realm of humanity which included death. He did it so that we could relate to Him knowing that He understands our plight and has empathy and compassion. But most of all He died to give us the assurance of a resurrection.

Had Christ not been resurrected we would be most miserable. Our hope is in the fact that there is a resurrection and Christ promised all would be resurrected. In order to give us this hope . . . Jesus died willingly. Thus our guilt drove Him, out of love, to experience our death so that we could have the hope of the resurrection.

This idea that Jesus was a sin capacitor who somehow collected the whole of human guilt and responsibility is ridiculous. Sin happens in the mind and is expressed in our words and deeds. Jesus couldn’t take our literal sins on Himself. So now some say He didn’t take our sins, but the condemnation for our sins was laid on Him.

What kind of justice system, what kind of jury, what kind of public would accept the innocent being punished in the place of the guilty???? Jesus became sin for us in taking on the whole human experience. In the incarnation He experienced the human birth and a life of woe, betrayal, loneliness, and emotional pain. In His death He experienced our death, but the grave couldn’t hold Him and in His resurrection He gave us the hope of eternal life. Now He sits on His throne in the human glorified body for eternity as our representative and King, our divine substitute.

scott

Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... [Re: Tom] #101337
08/05/08 04:55 PM
08/05/08 04:55 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom
I agree with the "that's the way it is" part, but it seems to me your conclusion as to who the death depends on is not correct.

 Quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.(DA 764)

This brings out that the death of the wicked is *not* dependent upon God's actions, but dependent upon the actions of the wicked. She makes this point half a dozen times in these paragraphs. This is why God is innocent of the charges Satan brought upon God. If God had "left" Satan and his followers to reap the full result of their sin, it would not have appeared that this was what? The "inevitable result of sin." It would have appeared, instead, that this was something which was a result of God's actions as opposed to their own. The death of Christ revealed the truth about sin and God. Sin causes death, not God.

 Quote:
The bottom line is that God and sin cannot coexist. But sin and death always go together, just like God and life always go together. One must choose which one he wants to cling to.

This is true. But given that it is the wicked, and not God, who choose what they cling to, why would the death of the wicked depend upon God's actions? If death is the inevitable result of sin, and they choose sin, doesn't it follow that they are choosing death? God's actions are simply to allow the wicked to have what they have chosen.

Actually, it would have been closer to what I was thinking if I had said that the death of the wicked is dependent on God's nature. Things are the way they are because God is the way He is.

But let's explore God's actions for a moment. (Yes, God's actions are determined by His nature, but amuse me for now. ;\) )

Can God keep someone alive who has irrevocably chosen to separate from Him? Yes, He can. He has done it with Satan.

Let's say that sinners, if left to themselves, will kill each other. How could God prevent them from dying off? He could quarantine everyone from everyone else. So, you have a universe full of sinners who are separated from each other, and God keeps alive even if they are separated from Him. Thus, everyone stays alive.

Is that scenario possible?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Page 11 of 36 1 2 9 10 11 12 13 35 36

Moderator  dedication, Rick H 

Sabbath School Lesson Study Material Link
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
Most Recent Posts From Selected Public Forums
Seven Trumpets reconsidered
by Karen Y. 03/27/24 09:35 AM
Are the words in the Bible "imperfect"?
by Kevin H. 03/24/24 09:02 PM
The Story of David and Goliath
by ProdigalOne. 03/23/24 08:06 PM
Global Warming Farce
by kland. 03/22/24 10:17 AM
Carbon Dioxide What's so Bad about It?
by kland. 03/21/24 12:34 PM
The Value of Bible Types
by TruthinTypes. 03/17/24 06:22 PM
Orion Which Every One on the Globe Can See
by Rick H. 03/16/24 06:26 PM
'Prophet' Summons UFOs
by ProdigalOne. 03/16/24 02:19 AM
Will You Take The Wuhan Virus Vaccine?
by dedication. 03/11/24 06:31 PM
Get That Razor Wire Up!
by kland. 03/05/24 12:49 PM
Messages for This Time
by ProdigalOne. 03/04/24 05:54 AM
The Lake of Fire is Hell
by Rick H. 03/02/24 05:01 PM
Adventist Agriculture
by kland. 02/29/24 12:33 PM
Most Recent Posts From Selected Private Forums of MSDAOL
The Wound Is Healed! The Mark Is Forming!
by Rick H. 03/27/24 10:36 PM
Are we seeing a outpouring of the Holy Spirit?
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:50 PM
Time Is Short!
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:45 PM
Climate Change and the Sunday Law
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:42 PM
WHAT IS THE VERY END-TIME PROPHECY?
by Rick H. 03/23/24 06:03 PM
Digital Identity Control
by Rick H. 03/23/24 02:08 PM
A.I. - The New God?
by Rick H. 03/23/24 01:59 PM
Christian Nationalism/Sunday/C
limate Change

by ProdigalOne. 03/16/24 08:38 PM
Perils of the Emerging Church Movement
by Rick H. 03/16/24 06:30 PM
Is There A Connection Between WO & LGBTQ?
by Kevin H. 03/12/24 09:20 PM
A Second American Civil War?
by Daryl. 03/04/24 06:14 PM
Forum Announcements
Visitors by Country Since February 11, 2013
Flag Counter
Google Maritime SDA OnLine Public Forums Site Search & Google Translation Service
Google
 
Web www.maritime-sda-online.com

Copyright 2000-Present
Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine).

LEGAL NOTICE:
The views expressed in this forum are those of individuals
and do not necessarily represent those of Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine,
as well as the Seventh-day Adventist Church
from the local church level to the General Conference level.

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine) is also a self-supporting ministry
and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland
or any of its subsidiaries.

"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1