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Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Tom] #101703
08/17/08 07:48 PM
08/17/08 07:48 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom
God imputes sin when one willfully does something one knows to be wrong:

 Quote:
Said the angel, "If light comes, and that light is set aside, or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject."(Spiritual Gifts Volume 4b page 3)

And if God does not impute sin, then is the person a sinner?

 Originally Posted By: Tom
 Quote:
(Arnold)No. It is fatal, regardless of one's knowledge or lack thereof.

I'm not understanding this. Before light comes, there is no sin, so how could it be fatal?

Sin is incongruence with God's character, causing incompatibility with God. It causes God's glory to be a consuming fire. Sin is fatal because of it cannot mix with Him who is Life. It's akin to decapitation being fatal, regardless of whether you know it or not. It is an objective fact.

Your quote is speaking of sin as rebellion, which, of course, is subjective. It is speaking of rejecting light, which is different for each person.

 Originally Posted By: Tom
For example, not keeping the Sabbath is contrary to the 4th commandment, but if one knows nothing about it, how is it fatal?

It is fatal in the sense that the sinner fails to live in subjection and gratitude to the Lifegiver. Instead, the sinner depends on himself in order to perpetuate life. Sooner or later, he will discover that he cannot perpetuate life.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: asygo] #101705
08/17/08 09:56 PM
08/17/08 09:56 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
And if God does not impute sin, then is the person a sinner?


It would depend on the definition of "sinner."

 Quote:
Sin is incongruence with God's character, causing incompatibility with God.


The incompatibility with God comes as the result of a willful choice, which the angel quote makes clear. Why should something done innocently make one incompatible with God?

 Quote:
It causes God's glory to be a consuming fire. Sin is fatal because of it cannot mix with Him who is Life. It's akin to decapitation being fatal, regardless of whether you know it or not. It is an objective fact.


It sounds like perhaps you perceive this in a way I would call arbitrary, like a spontaneous combustion that happens if two given chemicals are chosen "just because." (Please note my choice of words "sounds like" and "perhaps. If I've misjudged your intent here, please correct).

I don't see it this way.

I see that the glory of God is His character, and if we choose sin we destroy our own character to the extent that we simply do not desire God's presence, nor those who are like Him, nor His principles, nor anything having to do with Him. "Do not desire" is putting it mildly. As EGW explains in GC 543, it would be "torture." So the unrighteous voluntarily exclude themselves from heaven, because they hate it.

 Quote:
Your quote is speaking of sin as rebellion, which, of course, is subjective. It is speaking of rejecting light, which is different for each person.


Sin as rebellion is subjective? Rebellion is a pretty clear cut thing, isn't it? It involves basically saying "no" to the Holy Spirit.

I agree that the rejection of light is different for each person, since each person has light regarding different things.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Tom] #101719
08/18/08 03:52 AM
08/18/08 03:52 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom
 Quote:
And if God does not impute sin, then is the person a sinner?

It would depend on the definition of "sinner."

So please give the different definitions. I'm interested in how you see the relationship between God's imputing sin and one being a sinner.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: asygo] #101722
08/18/08 02:59 PM
08/18/08 02:59 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I see the imputing of sin as a recognition of a reality. So the relationship is that God imputes sin to those who have sinned, in accordance to the quote cited. That is, sins of ignorance are not imputed as, to quote the angel, "before the light comes there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject."

Some people consider anyone who has a sinful nature to be a sinner. In this case whether or not God imputed sin wouldn't matter.

A "sinner" could be considered as one who has ever sinned. In fact, this is what I would normally consider a sinner to be. So all are sinners, except for Christ, as only He never sinned. In this case also whether or not God imputes sin wouldn't matter as a person would still be a sinner, because of having sinned.

Another possible definition would be a sinner is one who sins in the sense that John speaks of in 1 John 3:9. John says such a one is not born of God. In this case there would be a correspondence between God's imputing of sin and sinners. That is, if one considers a sinner to be those of whom John speaks of in 1 John 3, who are not born again, then those to whom God imputes sin are sinners, and those to whom God does not impute sin are not.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: asygo] #101742
08/19/08 01:54 PM
08/19/08 01:54 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
 Quote:
R: I disagree. If the person is mentally ill, the situation is different. But not all who commit suicide are mentally ill.
A: But since sin is a species of insanity, all sinners are mentally ill.

I don't know if I used the correct term. By "mentally ill" I mean the person who is not accountable for his/her acts. This, of course, cannot apply to all sinners.

Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Daryl] #101771
08/20/08 07:12 PM
08/20/08 07:12 PM
Rick H  Offline

Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,106
Florida, USA
 Originally Posted By: Daryl Fawcett
I read something somewhere else that prompted the following question:

Does God punish suicide?

Here is one response I read in an open forum outside of Maritime to this question:
 Quote:

Suicide is perhaps one of the most cowardly, selfish acts a person can perform. I believe personally that a person has to be mentally ill to do such a thing.

Because of that, I hold the following view.

There are people who get physically sick and die from that illness. God does not judge them for it, nor does He condemn them for it. Why would He do any different because someone is sick in their mind?

Do you agree or disagree with this person's response?


You have to take into account how God sees every person.....

1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

They have been given a body not to misuse it or abuse it but to take care of. So suicide would be a attack against the body even if its by the same person, and being mentally ill does not necessarily release a person from this duty. If through drugs, alcohol or some other abuse they caused their illness, then they will be held responsible for the end result...

Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Rick H] #101822
08/23/08 04:34 PM
08/23/08 04:34 PM
I Am His  Offline
Regular Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 90
United States
Richard ... Along these lines Ellen White stated that it was a sin to be sick.

 Quote:
" It is a sin to be sick, for all sickness is the result of transgression. " Counsels on Health p.37





Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: I Am His] #101833
08/24/08 12:48 AM
08/24/08 12:48 AM
Fran  Offline
Charter Member
Regular Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 74
Anywhere , USA
Could your quote be a taken out of context? That one clip makes one believe just that, but when read in its entirety can have a very different meaning!


 Quote:
Section II - Essentials to Health
A Knowledge of First Principles [HEALTH REFORMER, AUGUST, 1866, VOL. 1, NO. 1.]


Many have inquired of me, "What course shall I take to best preserve my health?" My answer is, Cease to transgress the laws of your being; cease to gratify a depraved appetite; eat simple food; dress healthfully, which will require modest simplicity; work healthfully; and you will not be sick. {CH 37.1}

It is a sin to be sick, for all sickness is the result of transgression. Many are suffering in consequence of the transgression of their parents. They cannot be censured for their parents' sin; but it is nevertheless their duty to ascertain wherein their parents violated the laws of their being, which has entailed upon their offspring so miserable an inheritance; and wherein their parents' habits were wrong, they should change their course, and place themselves by correct habits in a better relation to health. {CH 37.2}


Men and women should inform themselves in regard to the philosophy of health. The minds of rational beings seem shrouded in darkness in regard to their own physical structure, and how to preserve it in a healthy condition. The present generation have trusted their bodies with the doctors and their souls with the ministers. Do they not pay the minister well for studying the Bible for them, that they need not be to the trouble? and is it not his business to tell them what they must believe, and to settle all doubtful questions of theology without special investigation
38
on their part? If they are sick, they send for the doctor--believe whatever he may tell, and swallow anything he may prescribe; for do they not pay him a liberal fee, and is it not his business to understand their physical ailments, and what to prescribe to make them well, without their being troubled with the matter? ... {CH 37.3}

So closely is health related to our happiness, that we cannot have the latter without the former. A practical knowledge of the science of human life is necessary in order to glorify God in our bodies. It is therefore of the highest importance that among the studies selected for childhood, physiology should occupy the first place. How few know anything about the structure and functions of their own bodies and of nature's laws! Many are drifting about without knowledge, like a ship at sea without compass or anchor; and what is more, they are not interested to learn how to keep their bodies in a healthy condition and prevent disease. {CH 38.1}


Self-Denial Essential

The indulgence of animal appetites has degraded and enslaved many. Self-denial and a restraint upon the animal appetites are necessary to elevate and establish an improved condition of health and morals, and purify corrupted society. Every violation of principle in eating and drinking blunts the perceptive faculties, making it impossible for them to appreciate or place the right value upon eternal things. It is of the greatest importance that mankind should not be ignorant in regard to the consequences of excess. Temperance in all things is necessary to health and the development and growth of a good Christian character.
39
{CH 38.2}

Those who transgress the laws of God in their physical organism will not be less slow to violate the law of God spoken from Sinai. Those who will not, after the light has come to them, eat and drink from principle instead of being controlled by appetite, will not be tenacious in regard to being governed by principle in other things. The agitation of the subject of reform in eating and drinking will develop character and will unerringly bring to light those who make a "god of their bellies." {CH 39.1}


Responsibility of Parents

Parents should arouse and in the fear of God inquire, What is truth? A tremendous responsibility rests upon them. They should be practical physiologists, that they may know what are and what are not correct physical habits, and be enabled thereby to instruct their children. The great mass are as ignorant and indifferent in regard to the physical and moral education of their children as the animal creation. And yet they dare assume the responsibilities of parents. {CH 39.2}

Every mother should acquaint herself with the laws that govern physical life. She should teach her children that the indulgence of animal appetites produces a morbid action in the system and weakens their moral sensibilities. Parents should seek for light and truth, as for hid treasures. To parents is committed the sacred charge of forming the characters of their children in childhood. They should be to their children both teacher and physician. They should understand nature's wants and nature's laws. A careful conformity to the laws God has implanted in our being will ensure health, and there will not be a
40
breaking of the constitution which will tempt the afflicted to call for a physician to patch them up again. {CH 39.3}

Many seem to think they have a right to treat their own bodies as they please, but they forget that their bodies are not their own. Their Creator, who formed them, has claims upon them that they cannot rightly throw off. Every needless transgression of the laws which God has established in our being is virtually a violation of the law of God, and is as great a sin in the sight of Heaven as to break the Ten Commandments. Ignorance upon this important subject is sin; the light is now beaming upon us, and we are without excuse if we do not cherish the light and become intelligent in regard to these things, which it is our highest earthly interest to understand. {CH 40.1}


The Wisdom of God's Works

Lead the people to study the manifestation of God's love and wisdom in the works of nature. Lead them to study the marvelous organism, the human system, and the laws by which it is governed. Those who perceive the evidences of God's love, who understand something of the wisdom and beneficence of His laws and the results of obedience, will come to regard their duties and obligations from an altogether different point of view. Instead of looking upon an observance of the laws of health as a matter of sacrifice or self-denial, they will regard it, as it really is, as an inestimable blessing. {CH 40.2}

Every gospel worker should feel that the giving of instruction in the principles of healthful living is a part of his appointed work. Of this work there is great need, and the world is open for it.--The Ministry of Healing, page 147 (1905).


The greatest want of the world is the want of men; men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall. {Ed 57.3}
Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Daryl] #101847
08/24/08 03:13 PM
08/24/08 03:13 PM
C
crater  Offline
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 989
United States
 Originally Posted By: Daryl Fawcett
Do we also have some Scripture regarding this?


There appears to be accounts of two suicides recorded in scripture. That of King Saul, who fell upon his own sword rather then to be taken prisoner by his enemy, where he may have been tortured and humiliated. I don't recall scriptural comment over Saul choosing this type of death?

The other account is that of Samson. An account of his death is given in Judges 16: 25-31.

Reading Hebrews 11 and in particular vs 32, Samson appears to be listed "among the saints".

In the story of Samson there is nothing to indicate that he had a "good character". So perhaps he had a conversion experience at the grinding mill. Was he moved by the spirit of God to pull over the pagan temple? It appears that God gave him the strength to do so.

Text that I have found that are used in the condemnation of suicide are: Ex. 20:13; Deut. 5:17. Rom. 6:16,12, Matthew 22:39, Ephesians 5:29, I Corinthians 13:5, I Tim. 5:8. Revelation 21:8.

Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: crater] #101855
08/24/08 03:56 PM
08/24/08 03:56 PM
Daryl  Offline
OP
Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,121
Nova Scotia, Canada
There is also yet another account of suicide in Scripture of Judas Iscariot going out and hanging himself, or did we already cover that one in my short memory here. \:D


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

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