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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Rosangela] #110230
03/19/09 07:24 PM
03/19/09 07:24 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
T:This is what you believe, isn't it?

R:No, this isn’t the totality of what I believe about this subject.


Well, I just quoted a small paragraph, so, of course, I wasn't asking if it was the totality of what you believed. I was asking if you agreed with what it said. I think you do.

Quote:
T: She speaks about Christ's sharing in our sorrows and temptations:

R:Yes, but what does she mean by that?


Let's look at what she said:

Quote:
It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. (DA 49)


She speaks of taking man's nature, accepting humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. So that sounds like she's saying taking the same nature that man had after 4,000 years.

Then she says that "like every child of Adam, He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity." This sounds like genetically Christ's human nature was the same as every other human being. As we receive our human nature, so Christ received His, by means of genes and chromosomes.

Then she says, "What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors." Here she speaks of the results being shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. A common SDA formula of the time was to bring out that Christ's ancestors included prostitutes, and others of low repute. The "results being shown in the history of His earthly ancestors" could hardly be speaking of their being hungry and tired. No one would read what she wrote her that way.

Quote:
R:What she means is made clear in another passage:

“For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity. Only thus could He rescue man from the lowest depths of degradation.” {ST, December 3, 1902 par. 7}


I think it's made clearly in the passage itself. This passage makes some similar points. It brings out the humiliation aspect more clearly, but not that Christ accepted the law of heredity like every other child of Adam. It would be quite odd to think that "the lowest depths of degradation" would be referring to hunger and fatigue.

Quote:
Matthew 5:28 "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”
Looking to lust is an act of the will. He didn't say looking at a woman was a sin, but looking to lust.

[quote]The verb “to lust” here is epithumeo, of the same root as the word “lust” (epithumea) in James 1:14: “But every man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust and enticed.” You said that the word in James didn't express a sin. However, you admit it expresses a sin in Matthew 5:28.


In Matthew 5:28, looking to lust is an act of the will. In James, "is tempted" is not an act of the will. Sin is only conceived when an act of the will takes place, acceding to the temptation. Doesn't that make sense? Or do you think merely having the temptation is a sin?

Sorry to ask this again, if you already answered it. Do you think Christ was ever tempted sexually? Did He ever feel a desire to have sex?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #110287
03/20/09 03:34 PM
03/20/09 03:34 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Then she says that "like every child of Adam, He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity." This sounds like genetically Christ's human nature was the same as every other human being. As we receive our human nature, so Christ received His, by means of genes and chromosomes.

Then she says, "What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors." Here she speaks of the results being shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. A common SDA formula of the time was to bring out that Christ's ancestors included prostitutes, and others of low repute. The "results being shown in the history of His earthly ancestors" could hardly be speaking of their being hungry and tired. No one would read what she wrote her that way.

Are you saying that Jesus received "prostituteness" as part of "the working of the great law of heredity"?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: asygo] #110291
03/20/09 03:40 PM
03/20/09 03:40 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
He received the genetically passed hereditary inclinations of His ancestors. The results of the working of the law of heredity (the working out of these hereditary inclinations) is shown in these ancestors.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #110324
03/21/09 11:48 AM
03/21/09 11:48 AM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Salut all, Rosangela you said "our sinful nature" does not include the moral or spiritual nature and it wasn't physical.

However, the moral decision or will comes from our brain frontal processing which can be label as our moral faculty. But our moral faculty needs to be married to a "spirit". So I agree with you that the spiritual nature is the basis of sin.

Isn't the essence of sin --> Rebellion?

I think we can't prove to what extend Christ was human with genetics because of His conception was not like ours. He could of been fully human, but we all know that He was Christ incarnate, so He was fully God at the same time.

Can God be Rebellious to God?

Quote:
“For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity. Only thus could He rescue man from the lowest depths of degradation.” {ST, December 3, 1902 par. 7}

I think it is interesting the wording EGW used to describe Christ moral inheritance. She said He inherited moral decreased in "worth". Not in powers or nor strenght.

I like to compare man as a hi-tech computer with hardware and software that enables to use the 5 sences, but with wheels. So imagine a hi-tech computerized car. However, the car needs to have a driver. You can choose to put your car on automation, however, it has limitation. And ideally whether you realize it or not, you need a driver.

Jesus makes clear that we cannot serve two masters. So the car can only be driven by One driver, either by God or by evil spirits.

Quote:
Jer 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man [is] not in himself: [it is] not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

These scriptures makes clear to me that man needs a driver and he is driven by a "Spirit". Christ clearly made us aware, that He had a driver and it was the Father.


Blessings
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Elle] #110339
03/21/09 04:03 PM
03/21/09 04:03 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
I think we can't prove to what extend Christ was human with genetics because of His conception was not like ours.


Why not? He began life, as a human being, as a zygote, just like another other human. One could have seen Him as a single-celled organism. It blows the mind that God could do that, but there you are.

The SOP tells us that like every child of Adam, He accepted the workings of the great law of heredity.

Quote:
He could have been fully human, but we all know that He was Christ incarnate, so He was fully God at the same time.

Can God be Rebellious to God?


God cannot be tempted (James tells us this). But man can be. As man, Christ was tempted as man is tempted, and was able to fall, just as anyone else.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #110349
03/21/09 07:01 PM
03/21/09 07:01 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
From another thread:

Quote:
It is what Andreasen calls the third phase of the atonement that became the focal point of his theology. Utilizing the widely held concept that Christ had sinful human nature just like Adam possessed after the fall (that is, a sinful nature with tendencies to sin), Andreasen formulated his understanding of “last generation” theology with Christ being an example of what could be accomplished in the lives of His followers. That theology is most clearly set forth in the chapter entitled “The Last Generation” in The Sanctuary Service (1937, 1947). That book specifically states that Satan was not defeated at the cross, but would be defeated by the last generation in their demonstration that an entire generation of people could live a sinlessly perfect life. Christ, having taken their human nature with all its problems, had proven that it could be done. They could live the same sinlessly perfect life that He did with the same help as He had had. Through the last generation God “defeats Satan and wins His case,” “in the remnant Satan will meet his defeat,” “through them God will stand vindicated.” At that point Christ can come.

With that theology in mind, it is easy to understand why Andreasen became upset with the idea of a completed atonement on the cross and the teaching that Christ was not just like other human beings in His human nature. A completed atonement would have undermined his understanding of Adventist theology. Thus the passion of his reaction to Froom and the evangelical conferees, which he saw as a betrayal of Adventist theology for evangelical recognition. Such a price was too high. It represented in the eyes of Andreasen nothing less than apostasy.


This is another instance making clear that assuming a sinful nature means a human nature with tendencies to sin.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #110350
03/21/09 08:31 PM
03/21/09 08:31 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
He received the genetically passed hereditary inclinations of His ancestors. The results of the working of the law of heredity (the working out of these hereditary inclinations) is shown in these ancestors.

We've gone over this ground before, but I'm still not sure what you are asserting.

"He received the genetically passed hereditary inclinations of His ancestors."

I say, and I believe R agrees, that your quote means Jesus was weak and infirm, as all fallen people are - He suffered from the amoral frailties of man. You agree with that, but say that it goes further.

I'm not sure exactly what you are asserting on this point. You've said what you said many times, but it is vague every time. Are you saying that Jesus "received the genetically passed hereditary inclinations of His ancestors" to be a harlot?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: asygo] #110354
03/22/09 02:52 AM
03/22/09 02:52 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Regarding DA 49, the quote cannot simply be asserting that Jesus was able to become hungry and tired. Nobody doubts this (that Jesus became hungry and tired).

The quote says that Christ accepted the working of the law of heredity, like every child of Adam; that He accepted human nature after 4,000 years of sin. We all know what this human nature is like, as we all have it. She's asserting that Christ took the human nature we have, in the same we take it, and says that the results of this nature are evident in His ancestors.

No one looks at His ancestors and says, "Oh, David got hungry and tired, just like I do."

He received the genetically passed hereditary inclinations of His ancestors.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #110368
03/22/09 03:12 PM
03/22/09 03:12 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
From another thread:

Quote:
It is what Andreasen calls the third phase of the atonement that became the focal point of his theology. Utilizing the widely held concept that Christ had sinful human nature just like Adam possessed after the fall (that is, a sinful nature with tendencies to sin), Andreasen formulated his understanding of “last generation” theology with Christ being an example of what could be accomplished in the lives of His followers....

This is another instance making clear that assuming a sinful nature means a human nature with tendencies to sin.

Here is an excerpt from M. L. Andreasen's chapter, The Last Generation: "There are few Christians who have not gained the mastery over some sin that formerly greatly annoyed them and overcame them. Many a man who has been a slave to the tobacco habit has gained the victory over the habit and rejoices in his victory. Tobacco has ceased to be a temptation. It attracts him no more. He has the victory. On that point he is sanctified. As he has been victorious over one besetment, so he is to become victorious over every sin. When the work is completed, when he has gained the victory over pride, ambition, love of the world-over all evil-he is ready for translation."

His description of victory/sanctification includes a point in the Christian's experience when each temptation "has ceased to be a temptation. It attracts him no more."


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #110369
03/22/09 03:19 PM
03/22/09 03:19 PM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
E: I think we can't prove to what extend Christ was human with genetics because of His conception was not like ours.

T: Why not? He began life, as a human being, as a zygote, just like another other human. One could have seen Him as a single-celled organism. It blows the mind that God could do that, but there you are.

A zygote requires two cells from two individuals. Typically a man and a woman. The egg of a woman alone is incomplete. Let's assume God took all of Mary's genetics, then by taking one cell, you create a "Clone". That is what cloning is all about-- an exact replica. Jesus was not a clone of Mary. First he was male and second, I'm sure He was different than Mary in many ways, since the Bible never said that Jesus was like Mary. So His other half of His genetics came from God. Which will make Him totally different from you and me and anyone else on earth including Adam.

Originally Posted By: Tom
God cannot be tempted (James tells us this). But man can be. As man, Christ was tempted as man is tempted, and was able to fall, just as anyone else.

There's a difference between being tempted and being Rebellious. I brought out the point that the essence of sin and the nature of man is Rebellion to God. Is there Bible text or SOP that says that Jesus was Rebellious?


Blessings
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