M: Abraham obeyed God based on trust not based on the content of the command. God didn't provide him with reasons why, and yet his obedience was not considered slavish. That's the point.

T: I disagree. If the command had been for Abraham to have had sex with his son, he wouldn't have done that, right? If so, then Abraham's obedience did take into account the content of the command.

T: When I asked you how would you know if you were following God's voice or not in response to a command, you said you would take into account God's will and His law, an excellent answer. Wouldn't Abraham have done the same?

T: You speak of trust, but how do you know it's God you're trusting and not the enemy?

M: God will not command me to do something that contradicts His will and law.

T: Which is exactly the point! This is precisely what I've been pointing out, and exactly what I've been saying, which just slightly different language (e.g. knowing God's character, the principles of His government).

If you know God's will and law, the foundation upon which you determine whether a command you receive is from God or not, then you're obey on the basis of understanding, and if you love the law, then from intelligent appreciation. I'll think I'll stop here, since this has been my whole point.

M: God does not have to explain the reasons why He expects us to obey when he commands us to - Go and sacrifice your son. Obeying Him simply because He said so is based on trust and is more than sufficient.

T: It's not sufficient. Using your own guidelines, it's necessary to know God's will and His law. His law is a transcript of His character, so knowing His law means knowing His character.

T: Again, consider the question of if Abraham had been commanded to have sex with his son. Would he have done that?

T: How about you? Certainly there are things you would refuse to do on the basis of their being immoral, even if you thought it was an angel or God telling you to do so. Indeed, wouldn't you reject the idea that it was an angel or God telling you to do something if it were something you knew to be contrary to His will or law?

M: And, such obedience is not slavish.

T: You're sort of talking out of both sides of your mouth. An obedience which did not take anything into account, such as the content of the command, would be slavish. That's what "slavish obedience" means. It's simply "yes, sir" without any thought whatsoever of what one is doing, whether such a thing is immoral, what the consequences of such an action would, etc.

T: However, the obedience you're suggesting, based on an understanding of God's will and His law, is not slavish obedience.

Yeah, that's what I said.


That's why I said it has more to do with Jesus' perspective.


Again, it's Jesus perspective. Just because he called someone friend it did not mean they were as informed and knowledgeable as He was.


They never really behaved as friends until after the Pentecost.

M: Abraham obeyed God based on trust not based on the content of the command. God didn't provide him with reasons why, and yet his obedience was not considered slavish. That's the point.

T: I disagree. If the command had been for Abraham to have had sex with his son, he wouldn't have done that, right? If so, then Abraham's obedience did take into account the content of the command.

M:Do you think God commanded Abraham to have sex with his son?

T: When I asked you how would you know if you were following God's voice or not in response to a command, you said you would take into account God's will and His law, an excellent answer. Wouldn't Abraham have done the same?

M:The law says, Thou shalt not murder.

M: God does not have to explain the reasons why He expects us to obey when he commands us to - Go and sacrifice your son. Obeying Him simply because He said so is based on trust and is more than sufficient.

T: It's not sufficient. Using your own guidelines, it's necessary to know God's will and His law. His law is a transcript of His character, so knowing His law means knowing His character.

R:Most of the law simply says, Thou shalt not, it does not provide reasons why.

T: Again, consider the question of if Abraham had been commanded to have sex with his son. Would he have done that?

M:Do you think God commanded Abraham to have sex with his son?

T: How about you? Certainly there are things you would refuse to do on the basis of their being immoral, even if you thought it was an angel or God telling you to do so. Indeed, wouldn't you reject the idea that it was an angel or God telling you to do something if it were something you knew to be contrary to His will or law?

M:Like Abraham, I would obey God even if the command was - Go and sacrifice your son. Would you?

T: You're sort of talking out of both sides of your mouth. An obedience which did not take anything into account, such as the content of the command, would be slavish. That's what "slavish obedience" means. It's simply "yes, sir" without any thought whatsoever of what one is doing, whether such a thing is immoral, what the consequences of such an action would, etc.

M:Do you think taking God at His word is slavish? Would you go and sacrifice your son if God told you to? Or, would you require God to explain why?

It sounds like you're simply asking me if I agree with what I said, as you're saying the same thing, aren't you? If so, I agree. If you're saying something different, you'll have to point it out to me.

M: Nevertheless, for reasons that made sense to Jesus, He viewed them as friends in spite of the fact He knew they didn't understand everything He told them and that they were going to betray Him in just a little while.

T: He called Judas "friend" as well. He did so because He loved him.

M: Obviously Jesus was using a different criteria for friends than you are.

T: Your basing this comment on the basis of their behavior, it looks like. I think it's obvious you've made the wrong conclusion. You should have concluded they didn't behave as friends.

Again, it's Jesus perspective. Just because he called someone friend it did not mean they were as informed and knowledgeable as He was.

Abraham's test was the most severe that could come to a human being. Had he failed under it, he would never have been registered as the father of the faithful. Had he deviated from God's command, the world would have lost an inspiring example of unquestioning faith and obedience. {1BC 1094.4}

Abraham's unquestioning obedience was one of the most striking instances of faith and reliance upon God to be found in the Sacred Record. . . . Just such faith and confidence as Abraham had the messengers of God need today. {AG 133.6} We cannot overestimate the value of simple faith and unquestioning obedience. It is by following in the path of obedience in simple faith that the character obtains perfection. {LHU 139.6} When we are in right relation to God, we shall recognize Christ's authority to direct us and His claim to our unquestioning obedience. {2MCP 782.4}

"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went." Hebrews 11:8. Abraham's unquestioning obedience is one of the most striking evidences of faith to be found in all the Bible. To him, faith was "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Verse 1. Relying upon the divine promise, without the least outward assurance of its fulfillment, he abandoned home and kindred and native land, and went forth, he knew not whither, to follow where God should lead. "By faith he became a sojourner in the land of promise, as in a land not his own, dwelling in tents, with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise." Hebrews 11:9, R.V. {PP 126.2}

In a vision of the night the divine Voice was again heard. "Fear not, Abram," were the words of the Prince of princes; "I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward." But his mind was so oppressed by forebodings that he could not now grasp the promise with unquestioning confidence as heretofore. He prayed for some tangible evidence that it would be fulfilled. And how was the covenant promise to be realized, while the gift of a son was withheld? "What wilt thou give me," he said, "seeing I go childless?" "And, lo, one born in my house is mine heir." He proposed to make his trusty servant Eliezer his son by adoption, and the inheritor of his possessions. But he was assured that a child of his own was to be his heir. Then he was led outside his tent, and told to look up to the unnumbered stars glittering in the heavens; and as he did so, the words were spoken, "So shall thy seed be." "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." Romans 4:3. {PP 136.3}

15: Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.(John 15)