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Re: Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command? [Re: Claudia Thompson] #110669
03/28/09 08:55 PM
03/28/09 08:55 PM
teresaq  Offline
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,918
CA, USA
maybe we are discussing the spirit of questioning more than actual questioning?

i mean, some cavil at everything-one spirit.

others want to know the reasoning-another spirit.

that may not have been the best way to say it, but i hope all got the point.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command? [Re: Claudia Thompson] #110672
03/28/09 11:05 PM
03/28/09 11:05 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
It should be really easy to see that being called a friend has to do with understanding, and being called a servant has to do with not understanding.

But Jesus' disciples didn't understand. They were totally clueless. They abandoned Him. One denied Him thrice.

The point is - It is possible to obey Jesus before understanding His reasons for giving the command. Such obedience is not slavish.

Again, Abraham obeyed God unquestioningly. He took God at His word without questioning why or withholding obedience until sufficient reasons were given. There is nothing slavish about such obedience. Listen:

Quote:
Abraham's test was the most severe that could come to a human being. Had he failed under it, he would never have been registered as the father of the faithful. Had he deviated from God's command, the world would have lost an inspiring example of unquestioning faith and obedience. {1BC 1094.4}

Abraham's unquestioning obedience was one of the most striking instances of faith and reliance upon God to be found in the Sacred Record. . . . Just such faith and confidence as Abraham had the messengers of God need today. {AG 133.6} We cannot overestimate the value of simple faith and unquestioning obedience. It is by following in the path of obedience in simple faith that the character obtains perfection. {LHU 139.6} When we are in right relation to God, we shall recognize Christ's authority to direct us and His claim to our unquestioning obedience. {2MCP 782.4}

"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went." Hebrews 11:8. Abraham's unquestioning obedience is one of the most striking evidences of faith to be found in all the Bible. To him, faith was "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Verse 1. Relying upon the divine promise, without the least outward assurance of its fulfillment, he abandoned home and kindred and native land, and went forth, he knew not whither, to follow where God should lead. "By faith he became a sojourner in the land of promise, as in a land not his own, dwelling in tents, with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise." Hebrews 11:9, R.V. {PP 126.2}

You seem to be saying such unquestioning obedience is slavish. Is that what you're saying? BTW, Abraham didn't always obey unquestioningly. Sometimes he asked questions. Listen:

Quote:
In a vision of the night the divine Voice was again heard. "Fear not, Abram," were the words of the Prince of princes; "I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward." But his mind was so oppressed by forebodings that he could not now grasp the promise with unquestioning confidence as heretofore. He prayed for some tangible evidence that it would be fulfilled. And how was the covenant promise to be realized, while the gift of a son was withheld? "What wilt thou give me," he said, "seeing I go childless?" "And, lo, one born in my house is mine heir." He proposed to make his trusty servant Eliezer his son by adoption, and the inheritor of his possessions. But he was assured that a child of his own was to be his heir. Then he was led outside his tent, and told to look up to the unnumbered stars glittering in the heavens; and as he did so, the words were spoken, "So shall thy seed be." "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." Romans 4:3. {PP 136.3}

Re: Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command? [Re: Claudia Thompson] #110697
03/29/09 04:39 AM
03/29/09 04:39 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
So I dont think that because sometimes we question something ... it necessarily means we arent God's friend or even that we dont have faith. I think God understands.


God seems to appreciate honest questions very much. This seems very evident in the way Jesus dealt with those who asked questions.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command? [Re: Claudia Thompson] #110698
03/29/09 04:41 AM
03/29/09 04:41 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM, I don't know what to say other than repeat what I said. What Jesus said is very simple.

Quote:

15: Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.(John 15)


I don't understand the difficulty you're having with this. There's no need to parse the word "friend," or wonder if it's better to be a friend than to be a servant, or whether one continues to be a servant after being a friend, or any of these things. These are not necessary considerations to understand what Jesus said, which is very simple.

1.Now I am call you friends, as opposed to servants, as I have been doing up until now.
2.Why? Because a servant does not know what the one whom he is serving does. (This should be understood as encompassing motives, reasons and principles; not simply the act itself).
3.But all things I've heard from my Father I've made known to you.

Ellen White makes clear that Jesus Christ did not make them know to them simply by telling them, but that He revealed in His life what He had received from His Father.

Ok, that's it. It should be really easy to see that being called a friend has to do with understanding, and being called a servant has to do with not understanding.

This seems very clear from the text. I don't see how else one could interpret this.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command? [Re: Tom] #110699
03/29/09 04:43 AM
03/29/09 04:43 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
The point is - It is possible to obey Jesus before understanding His reasons for giving the command. Such obedience is not slavish.


MM, I asked you how you would know if you heard a voice commanding you to do something if it was of God or not. You said by knowing Him and knowing His law. This was my whole point. I don't know why we're still discussing this.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command? [Re: Tom] #110831
03/30/09 02:45 PM
03/30/09 02:45 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Abraham is an example of someone who obeyed God "unquestioningly" and it was not considered slavish. Do you agree?

PS - See quotes posted above.

Re: Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command? [Re: Mountain Man] #110837
03/30/09 03:45 PM
03/30/09 03:45 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I believe that God wants us to obey Him intelligently, and that His commands are presume that we will obey on the basis of a well reasoned faith. The Boreans were more noble because they searched the Scriptures to see if the things Paul was saying were true.

I asked you what you would do if you heard a voice, how you would know if it were God or not. You said by considering if the command were in agreement with God's law and will. This is what I had been saying.

So that pretty much settles the issue, doesn't it?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command? [Re: Tom] #110880
03/30/09 08:43 PM
03/30/09 08:43 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Not the issue regarding the example of Abraham. He obeyed God without questioning why. Do you think his obedience in those cases was slavish?

Re: Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command? [Re: Mountain Man] #110893
03/30/09 10:31 PM
03/30/09 10:31 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
You already asked this. I already commented regarding this. You can see the comments earlier in the thread.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command? [Re: Tom] #111021
03/31/09 11:33 PM
03/31/09 11:33 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
I went back I couldn't find where you talked about Abraham's "unquestioning" obedience. Do you know which post it is? Also, I found this interesting comment:

God informed Satan, that to His Son alone He would reveal His secret purposes, and He required all the family in heaven, even Satan, to yield Him implicit, unquestioned obedience; but that he (Satan) had proved himself unworthy of a place in heaven. Then Satan exultingly pointed to his sympathizers, comprising nearly one half of all the angels, and exclaimed, "These are with me! Will you expel these also, and make such a void in heaven?" He then declared that he was prepared to resist the authority of Christ and to defend his place in heaven by force of might, strength against strength. {SR 18.1}

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