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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #111562
04/10/09 09:47 PM
04/10/09 09:47 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
A:Yes, some people look at it that way.

T:It seems Jesus Christ was one of these. When Jesus said of the publican who asked for mercy that "this man went to his house justified," couldn't he have just as well said, "this man went to his house saved"?

A:He could have, but He did not. That would make it seem that there's a difference, despite what some believe.


This is a confusing answer. It looks like, by "He could have" what you mean is "No, He couldn't have," unless you somehow misunderstood my question as asking if Christ was physically able to pronounce these words.

If He really could have, that would make it seem there *isn't* a difference.

Here's a description from "The Desire of Ages" of how one is saved:

Quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.(DA 175)


This looks an awful lot like a description of how one is justified. Couldn't Ellen White have just as easily asked, "How, then, are we to be justified?" If you're answer is, "She could have, but she didn't, so they must be different," please explain how Jesus Christ, in the case of the publican, is describing justification but not salvation, and how Ellen White here is describing salvation but not justification.

Quote:
If any man can merit salvation by anything he may do, then he is in the same position as the Catholic to do penance for his sins. Salvation, then, is partly of debt, that may be earned as wages. If man cannot, by any of his good works, merit salvation, then it must be wholly of grace, received by man as a sinner because he receives and believes in Jesus. It is wholly a free gift. Justification by faith is placed beyond controversy. And all this controversy is ended, as soon as the matter is settled that the merits of fallen man in his good works can never procure eternal life for him.(FW 19)


Here it looks like "justification" and "salvation" are being used interchangeably.

Quote:
Is Waggoner's definition the common definition? I don't think so. If it was, things wouldn't be so muddy.


There are other explanations as to why things are muddy. Perhaps Waggoner's teachings were rejected even though they were messages from God, as the SOP asserts. If this is the case, the "muddiness" could be resolved simply by ceasing the rejection of light.

Quote:
And it would seem that EGW herself contributed to the muddiness, since she made distinctions between justification and sanctification. You can find some of it in SC, published in 1892, 4 years after Waggoner's presentations.


I haven't said a word about distinguishing between justification and salvation.

You know, Ellen White said that Waggoner could teach righteousness by faith better than she could. Given this is true, shouldn't we be considering Waggoner's writings to understand righteousness by faith?

It is a great mystery to me that there are those who are strongly convinced of Ellen White's being a prophet (a good thing) but simultaneously give no heed to Jones or Waggoner, despite her endorsements of their message (e.g. a "message of God to the church of Laodicea.")


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: William] #111575
04/11/09 01:12 AM
04/11/09 01:12 AM
asygo  Offline
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Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: William
If she made distinctions it's only because there are valid distinctions—the old title and fitness nuance—in order for MAN to better comprehend the conditions of salvation.

Indeed, I believe there are important distinctions - one is the condition for salvation, the other the condition of salvation.

Originally Posted By: William
But does this negate the thief's salvific justification?

To answer Elle's earlier question, the thief surely would have sanctified in Christ had he lived. And thus the invitation to immortality.

Whoever God justifies, He also sanctifies. The thief was no exception.

Many people wonder how he could have been sanctified while hanging on the cross, since he was unable to "do good works." There are two facts to look at.

First, he DID do good works. Paul said if we confess with our mouths the Lord Jesus we will be saved. The thief did.

More importantly, some need a paradigm shift. There is a belief that justification is what God does for us, while sanctification is what we do for God. Hence, the thief could not have been sanctified. But I believe that BOTH justification and sanctification are works that God does, and we are the recipients. Justification is what God does FOR us, and sanctification is what God does IN us.

So did the thief receive the promise of eternal life without being sanctified? I believe he was sanctified. The holy purpose for which God used him was so great that we're still talking about those few hours over 2000 years later. In contrast, when I give a sermon, even I don't remember what I said a few hours later. That thief did more work than most Christians ever will. Yes, he was sanctified.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #111576
04/11/09 01:14 AM
04/11/09 01:14 AM
W
William  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 158
London, England
Quote:
It is a great mystery to me that there are those who are strongly convinced of Ellen White's being a prophet (a good thing) but simultaneously give no heed to Jones or Waggoner, despite her endorsements of their message (e.g. a "message of God to the church of Laodicea.")

Why the mystery, mate?

A quick perusal of the recommended Whidden paper should put your angst to rest.

Quote:
The summer of 2007 has been an interesting time of reflection for me as I have just completed the rough drafts of my forthcoming biography of Ellet Joseph Waggoner. The writing of that work has provided some interesting historical/theological perspective on issues which are still roiling around in the wake of the SDA church’s passage through the stormy waters stirred up by QOD. There is no doubt in my mind that there is a direct line of descent from the theology of Jones and Waggoner to the theology of M. L. Andreasen, Herbert Douglass, Dennis Priebe and Larry Kirkpatrick. Their “Final Generation Vindication,” “Last Generation Theology” (or “LGT”–Kirkpartirck) has been undergirded by their (a) “post-fall” Christology, (b) strong emphasis on a certain variety of total victory over acts of known sin that will lead to some sort of sinless perfection, and (c) a down-grading of emphases on evangelical Protestantism’s traditional accent on the primacy of justification by faith alone (Larry Kirkpatrick is explicit, but in all charity, others who advocate similar ideas might be more practical than theological in their expositions of justification).

Evangelical and Adventist theology, when it's all said and done, has little in common as you can see.

Though understanding the moderate and progressive element in post-QOD Adventism is always helpful when dialoguing with friends. thumbsup

William


:: Harmony not hate leads your opponent's mind to wisdom; beating him there always with tender heart. —Anonymous
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: William] #111579
04/11/09 01:55 AM
04/11/09 01:55 AM
asygo  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: William
How should we responsibly interpret her intended meaning, considering that justification here appears to be not only be legal but transformative?

I posted something on this a while back, but I can't find it. I'll try to repeat it here.

The Greek for "justified" is dikaioo. Strong gives this definition:
Quote:
1) to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

These are the three main meanings I get:
1) to be made holy (Rom 5:1)
2) to show evidence of holiness (Rom 3:20, 4:2)
3) to be declared holy (Rom 3:28)

So EGW can use "justification" as legal (#3) and transformative (#1) and still be within the scope of biblical usage. And of course, #1 inevitably leads to #2, to which James attests. While many claim that Paul contradicted James - one saying that Abraham was justified by works and the other rebutting that Abraham was justified without works - the fact is that they were both correct; just looking at different angles.

I doubt that Paul went around calling James an ignorant legalist. Neither can I imagine James calling Paul a pillar-destroying antinomian. If only we were as charitable and circumspect today, perhaps "primitive godliness" would be practiced more than it is preached. And considering how often it is preached today gives you an idea how much I think it is practiced.

If I may recommend another QOD presentation, check out J. Paulien's stuff.

Last edited by asygo; 04/11/09 02:30 AM.

By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #111580
04/11/09 02:20 AM
04/11/09 02:20 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
A:Yes, some people look at it that way.

T:It seems Jesus Christ was one of these. When Jesus said of the publican who asked for mercy that "this man went to his house justified," couldn't he have just as well said, "this man went to his house saved"?

A:He could have, but He did not. That would make it seem that there's a difference, despite what some believe.

This is a confusing answer. It looks like, by "He could have" what you mean is "No, He couldn't have," unless you somehow misunderstood my question as asking if Christ was physically able to pronounce these words.

If He really could have, that would make it seem there *isn't* a difference.

OK, let me clear it up.

Jesus could have enunciated the word "saved" if that's what He wanted to say. But apparently, He wanted to say something else. If we look later in the chapter, Luke 18:42, we find that Jesus could say "saved" when He wanted to. But it was in the context of healing.

Originally Posted By: Tom
Here it looks like "justification" and "salvation" are being used interchangeably.

They can sometimes be used interchangeably, but that doesn't mean they always mean the same thing. Remember your long-winded debate with R about propensity/tendency? You're sitting in R's chair now.

I'll provide one quote, which is all that's needed to disprove a theory.
Quote:
Those who accept the Saviour, however sincere their conversion, should never be taught to say or to feel that they are saved. {COL 155.1}

Can we replace "saved" with "justified" in this case, and still be true to Bible doctrine?

Originally Posted By: Tom
Perhaps Waggoner's teachings were rejected even though they were messages from God, as the SOP asserts. If this is the case, the "muddiness" could be resolved simply by ceasing the rejection of light.

Yes, they were unjustly rejected. Why? Because they were tearing down "pillars" of our faith that weren't pillars at all. The truths we could have learned as a people if we were more concerned with mining truth than with defending "Adventist beliefs." There is no excuse in thinking that all our doctrines are without error, no matter how long we have held them.

And now, the spiritual descendants of Jones and Waggoner show that they have learned their history well, using against dissenters the same weapons used to destroy their fathers. Satan seems to play with the "remnant" like a cat plays with a ball of yarn. Will we ever learn?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: asygo] #111589
04/11/09 04:48 AM
04/11/09 04:48 AM
teresaq  Offline
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Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo

More importantly, some need a paradigm shift. There is a belief that justification is what God does for us, while sanctification is what we do for God. Hence, the thief could not have been sanctified. But I believe that BOTH justification and sanctification are works that God does, and we are the recipients. Justification is what God does FOR us, and sanctification is what God does IN us.


smile thanks

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted By: Tom
Perhaps Waggoner's teachings were rejected even though they were messages from God, as the SOP asserts. If this is the case, the "muddiness" could be resolved simply by ceasing the rejection of light.

arnold: Yes, they were unjustly rejected. Why? Because they were tearing down "pillars" of our faith that weren't pillars at all. The truths we could have learned as a people if we were more concerned with mining truth than with defending "Adventist beliefs." There is no excuse in thinking that all our doctrines are without error, no matter how long we have held them.

And now, the spiritual descendants of Jones and Waggoner show that they have learned their history well, using against dissenters the same weapons used to destroy their fathers. Satan seems to play with the "remnant" like a cat plays with a ball of yarn. Will we ever learn?

it is so easy to get caught up in the game.......
great thoughts, succinctly stated. smile


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: asygo] #111592
04/11/09 05:07 AM
04/11/09 05:07 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Jesus could have enunciated the word "saved" if that's what He wanted to say. But apparently, He wanted to say something else.


This makes no sense, Arnold. There are many words one can use to convey meaning in a language. The fact that one chooses a word doesn't imply that one purposefully intends not to use another word. It's possible this could be the case, but it's ridiculous to *conclude* this is the case.

For example, you used the word "enunciated." You could have said, "articulated." By your logic I should conclude that apparently you wanted to say something other than "articulated". Similarly you said "apparently" instead of "seemingly." You said "wanted" instead of "wished" or "desired." At every pass, we have to choose among synonyms (unless we want to talk like the Amplified Bible). The fact that we do so does not necessarily mean there's a reason we choose one word instead of another, other than we're constrained to choose something. It *might* mean something significant, but there's certainly no way to conclude that it does simply because we chose one word instead of another.

If we look at the next chapter, in the case of Zacchaeus, Jesus said, "Salvation has come to this house." Are we to conclude that, because Jesus used the word "salvation" instead of "justified", Zacchaeus was not justified when He accepted Christ?

Quote:
They can sometimes be used interchangeably, but that doesn't mean they always mean the same thing.


"Salvation" is a broader term than "justification." There was a context to my question, which was your comment that "sanctification is salvation" whereas justification is a prelude to salvation (These aren't your exact words, but this was what I understood your meaning to be. If you don't think this is sufficiently precise, you can just repost what you said before about justification in the post where you said "sanctification is salvation.")

So my point in asking if "justification is salvation" is using "salvation" in precisely the same way you were; that is, I'm taking your definition for "salvation" in your statement that "sanctification is salvation" and asking if "justification is salvation."

Quote:
T:Perhaps Waggoner's teachings were rejected even though they were messages from God, as the SOP asserts. If this is the case, the "muddiness" could be resolved simply by ceasing the rejection of light.

A:Yes, they were unjustly rejected. Why? Because they were tearing down "pillars" of our faith that weren't pillars at all.

The truths we could have learned as a people if we were more concerned with mining truth than with defending "Adventist beliefs." There is no excuse in thinking that all our doctrines are without error, no matter how long we have held them.

And now, the spiritual descendants of Jones and Waggoner show that they have learned their history well, using against dissenters the same weapons used to destroy their fathers.


This is a good case of indeterminate pronouns. Let's see:
1."They" = postlapsarians.
2."Dissenters" means prelapsarians.
3."Same weapons" = thinking postlapsarian is a pillar and not an error when it isn't a pillar and is an error.
4."Their fathers" = those who were rejecting Jones and Waggoner.

This is the only way that makes sense to me to understand what you're writing, but seems problematic. It would have those who agree with Jones and Waggoner being dissenters of theirs, as well as making the truth which Jones and Waggoner brought into error.

Given that:
1.Jones and Waggoner had the truth of righteousness by faith.
2.Original sin/the human nature of Christ plays a profound part in understanding righteousness by faith.

doesn't it follow that

3.Jones and Waggoner had the truth about original sin/the human nature of Christ?

Quote:
Satan seems to play with the "remnant" like a cat plays with a ball of yarn. Will we ever learn?


I think so. I think some day the message brought by Jones and Waggoner will be accepted.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #111594
04/11/09 05:21 AM
04/11/09 05:21 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Justification is what God does FOR us, and sanctification is what God does IN us.


Justification is something God does in us as well. Here are three quotes which bring this out:

Quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.(DA 175)


Quote:
Without the grace of Christ, the sinner is in a hopeless condition; nothing can be done for him; but through divine grace, supernatural power is imparted to the man and works in mind and heart and character. It is through the impartation of the grace of Christ that sin is discerned in its hateful nature and finally driven from the soul temple.(FW 100;EGW is speaking of justification in the context)


Quote:
By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for every human being to obey God's commandments. When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah. (COL 113)


Here's an argument from Scripture that this is the case:

Quote:
But we will carry the figure a step further and that will relieve the matter of all difficulty. Zech. 3:1-5 furnishes the solution. It reads thus: (Zech.3:1-5 quoted; an excerpt follows)"Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment."

Notice in the above account that the taking away of the filthy garments is the same as causing the iniquity to pass from the person. And so we find that when Christ covers us with the robe of His own righteousness, He does not furnish a cloak for sin but takes the sin away. And this shows that the forgiveness of sins is something more than a mere form, something more than a mere entry in the books of record in heaven, to the effect that the sin has been cancelled. The forgiveness of sins is a reality; it is something tangible, something that vitally affects the individual. It actually clears him from guilt, and if he is cleared from guilt, is justified, made righteous, he has certainly undergone a radical change. He is, indeed, another person, for he obtained this righteousness for the remission of sins, in Christ. It was obtained only by putting on Christ. But "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature." 2 Cor. 5:17. And so the full and free forgiveness of sins carries with it that wonderful and miraculous change known as the new birth, for a man cannot become a new creature except by a new birth. This is the same as having a new, or a clean, heart. (Christ and His Righteousness)


One more:

Quote:
"Justified."

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law," "we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified," said the apostle. The meaning of the word "justified" is "made righteous." This is the exact term that appears in other languages, which are not composed of foreign terms. The Latin word for righteousness is justitia. To be just is to be righteous. Then we add the termination fy, from the Latin word, meaning "to make," and we have the exact equivalent of the simpler term, "make righteous." In an accommodated sense we use the term "justified" of a man who has not done wrong in a thing whereof he is accused. But, strictly speaking, such an one needs no justification, since he is already just; his righteous deed justified him. He was justified in his deed. But since all have sinned, there are none just or righteous before God; therefore they need to be justified, or made righteous, which God does.(The Glad Tidings)


So justification is what God does in a person every bit as much as sanctification is.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #111596
04/11/09 05:31 AM
04/11/09 05:31 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Regarding #111576, William, it would be nice if some SDA historians would write biographies about Jones and Waggoner who didn't disagree with them and weren't set upon proving them "aberant." (This is actually quoting from George Knight, who wrote about A. T. Jones. Not a good starting point for a biography, having the desire to show someone "aberant" from the get go. I know Whidden has no love lost for Waggoner either, speaking from a theological consideration. Rambling on a bit here, which I'm allowed to do, as I'm still within parentheses, I got a kick out of reading Whidden's dissertation, purported on the soteriology of Ellen White. Whenever Ellen White wrote something like Christ took our sinful nature, Whidden described such statements as "problematic.")

However, your comments still don't resolve the mystery for me. I don't understand the belief that Ellen White is a prophet and the simultaneous disbelief in the message of Jones and Waggoner.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #111602
04/11/09 07:44 AM
04/11/09 07:44 AM
asygo  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Justification is something God does in us as well.

I can go for that.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Climate Change and the Sunday Law
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:42 PM
WHAT IS THE VERY END-TIME PROPHECY?
by Rick H. 03/23/24 06:03 PM
Digital Identity Control
by Rick H. 03/23/24 02:08 PM
A.I. - The New God?
by Rick H. 03/23/24 01:59 PM
Christian Nationalism/Sunday/C
limate Change

by ProdigalOne. 03/16/24 08:38 PM
Perils of the Emerging Church Movement
by Rick H. 03/16/24 06:30 PM
Is There A Connection Between WO & LGBTQ?
by Kevin H. 03/12/24 09:20 PM
A Second American Civil War?
by Daryl. 03/04/24 06:14 PM
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