HOME CHAT ROOM #1 CHAT ROOM #2 Forum Topics Within The Last 7 Days REGISTER ENTER FORUMS BIBLE SCHOOL CONTACT US

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine Christian Family Fellowship Forums
(formerly Maritime SDA OnLine)
Consisting mainly of both members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church
Welcomes and invites other members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church to join us!

Click Here To Read Legal Notice & Disclaimer
Suggested a One Time Yearly $20 or Higher Donation Accepted Here to Help Cover the Yearly Expenses of Operating & Upgrading. We need at least $20 X 10 yearly donations.
Donations accepted: Here
ShoutChat Box
Newest Members
ekoorb1030, jibb555, MBloomfield, Dina, Nelson
1323 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums118
Topics9,189
Posts195,525
Members1,323
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
Seventh-day Adventist Church In Canada Links
Seventh-day Adventist Church in Canada

Newfoundland & Labrador Mission

Maritime Conference

Quebec Conference

Ontario Conference

Manitoba-Saskatchewan Conference

Alberta Conference

British Columbia Conference

7 Top Posters(30 Days)
kland 15
Rick H 15
Daryl 4
March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Member Spotlight
ProdigalOne
ProdigalOne
Alberta, Canada
Posts: 1,168
Joined: June 2015
Show All Member Profiles 
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Live Space Station Tracking
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
Last 7 Pictures From Photo Gallery Forums
He hath set an harvest for thee
Rivers Of Living Water
He Leads Us To Green Pastures
Remember What God Has Done
Remember The Sabbath
"...whiter than snow..."
A Beautiful Spring Day
Who's Online
3 registered members (Karen Y, 2 invisible), 2,970 guests, and 5 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
New Reply
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 32 of 49 1 2 30 31 32 33 34 48 49
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: teresaq] #112769
05/07/09 09:59 PM
05/07/09 09:59 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
This is some of what happened to Jesus, but rather like the tip of the iceberg. There's much more to temptation than simply being tired or hungry.

The Spirit of Prophecy tells us that it was bearing our sins that made Christ's temptations so difficult. In addition to being hungry and tired, Christ bore our sins, and did so in sinful flesh. This whole package combined to make His temptations so difficult.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Reply Quote
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: William] #112771
05/07/09 10:30 PM
05/07/09 10:30 PM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: William
in a weirdly sad way, I feel my time-consuming “work” is at last consummated (thanks, Rog!)—a peculiar mission accomplished.

What! Sniff, Sobb, cry I'm going to miss you William. I enjoyed reading you even tho at times I didn't understand you. Mainly due to that Accident! smile

Again I greatly appreciate the sources, your thoughts, your insight, your sence of humor, your little badness, and most of all your kindness that you left us.

I'm happy to hear about Annie and Bryce. Such a joy it must be for you. Enjoy. Will catch you later.


Blessings
Reply Quote
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #112774
05/07/09 11:49 PM
05/07/09 11:49 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
If you're defining "propensities of disobedience" as "a carnal mind," then Christ wasn't, since Christ didn't have a carnal mind. If you define it as "our sinful nature," then He was, because Christ was born with our sinful nature, which He took upon His sinless nature.

The question is simple. We are born with propensities of disobedience. Was Christ born with them (like us) or not (differently from us)?
Propensities of disobedience are inclinations to disobey the law. Do you define them as a carnal mind or as a sinful nature?
Quote:
R: Since these constitute our strongest temptations, then this means, according to you, that Christ wasn’t tempted in all points as we are.
T: I've pointed out the following many, many times. Christ not only took our flesh, but bore our sins in that flesh.

Bearing sins is bearing the guilt of those sins, understanding how sinful they are, not facing exactly the same temptations. Saying that Christ faced the same temptations of a homosexual, of a prostitute, of an alcoholic, or of a gambler, doesn’t make any sense at all, and is, in fact, blasphemous.

Quote:
Now unless our sorrows and temptations are limited to things like being tired, the logic breaks down. His being tempted in all points as we are is linked to His taking our sinful nature. This is an important point to lay hold of.

If Christ's being tempted as we are tempted simply had to do with broad categories of temptation, which didn't involve His taking our sinful nature, it doesn't make sense to *link* His taking our sinful nature with being tempted in all points as we are.

We have discussed this at length in the past. Of course there are three points on which men are tempted and Christ faced them all. Ellen White says this not just once or twice, but many times.

In the wilderness of temptation Christ met the great leading temptations that would assail man. There He encountered, singlehanded, the wily, subtle foe, and overcame him. The first great temptation was upon appetite; the second, presumption; the third, love of the world. ... His manifold temptations grow out of these three great leading points. {4T 44.2}

With this terrible weight of guilt upon Him because of our sins He withstood the fearful test upon appetite, and upon love of the world and of honor, and pride of display which leads to presumption. Christ endured these three great leading temptations and overcame in behalf of man, working out for him a righteous character, because He knew man could not do this of himself. He knew that upon these three points Satan was to assail the race. He had overcome Adam, and he designed to carry forward his work till he completed the ruin of man. Christ entered the field in man's behalf to conquer Satan for him because He saw that man could not overcome on his own account. {3T 372.1}

Now where, in the EGW writings, is this *link* you are speaking about? What passages do you have in mind?

Reply Quote
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Rosangela] #112777
05/08/09 02:16 AM
05/08/09 02:16 AM
teresaq  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
[quote
R: Since these constitute our strongest temptations, then this means, according to you, that Christ wasn’t tempted in all points as we are.
T: I've pointed out the following many, many times. Christ not only took our flesh, but bore our sins in that flesh.

Bearing sins is bearing the guilt of those sins, understanding how sinful they are, not facing exactly the same temptations. Saying that Christ faced the same temptations of a homosexual, of a prostitute, of an alcoholic, or of a gambler, doesn’t make any sense at all, and is, in fact, blasphemous. [/quote]

i think i get your point with these two and similar addictions: "of an alcoholic, or of a gambler", since Christ never became addicted to anything.

but what is the prostitute or homosexual addicted to? but as for the homosexual, as blasphemous as it might sound, i can see Jesus being tempted because a thought popping into the mind, planted by satan, i would understand, is not sin but a temptation which can be accepted or refused.

not sure how the prostitute would fit in as a temptation tho. but we need to understand how prostitutes become prostitutes. and for my homosexual brethern we need to understand that also.

Quote:
The first great temptation was upon appetite; the second, presumption; the third, love of the world. ... His manifold temptations grow out of these three great leading points.{4T 44.2}


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Reply Quote
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Rosangela] #112780
05/08/09 03:06 AM
05/08/09 03:06 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
T:If you're defining "propensities of disobedience" as "a carnal mind," then Christ wasn't, since Christ didn't have a carnal mind. If you define it as "our sinful nature," then He was, because Christ was born with our sinful nature, which He took upon His sinless nature.

R:The question is simple. We are born with propensities of disobedience. Was Christ born with them (like us) or not (differently from us)?


Same answer. If you define "propensities of disobedience" as a carnal mind, Christ was not born with that. If you define it as a "sinful nature," then Christ was (in the sense that He assume "our sinful nature."

Quote:
Propensities of disobedience are inclinations to disobey the law.


If hereditary (genetically passed), then Christ had them, as we all do. If something else, then He didn't.

Quote:
Do you define them as a carnal mind or as a sinful nature?


It would depend on the context. It's not a common phrase.

Quote:
Bearing sins is bearing the guilt of those sins, understanding how sinful they are, not facing exactly the same temptations.


The Scriptures say Christ was tempted in all points as we are.

Quote:
Saying that Christ faced the same temptations of a homosexual, of a prostitute, of an alcoholic, or of a gambler, doesn’t make any sense at all, and is, in fact, blasphemous.


The Scriptures say Christ was tempted in all points as we are. Denying this is blasphemous.

Quote:
3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.(1 John 4:3)


If Christ were not tempted as the homosexual, or the prostitute, or the alcoholic or the gambler, then these have no Savior. This idea is a "holier than thou" attitude, that Christ was only tempted to do "good sins" like I do, not the bad sins that the bad people do.

Quote:
T:If Christ's being tempted as we are tempted simply had to do with broad categories of temptation, which didn't involve His taking our sinful nature, it doesn't make sense to *link* His taking our sinful nature with being tempted in all points as we are.

R:We have discussed this at length in the past. Of course there are three points on which men are tempted and Christ faced them all. Ellen White says this not just once or twice, but many times.


Christ was tempted in "all points" as we are. I don't understand how this can be interpreted as completely differently than we are. You see Christ's temptations as totally foreign to ours.

We are tempted from within, which you don't believe is the case for Christ. We have inclinations to sin. You don't believe Christ felt any such inclinations, in spite of its being said that He took "our sinful nature" and was made to be sin for us. You believe that Christ's "temptations" were simply along the lines of being tricked and nothing else. Our temptations do not consist of simply being tricked. You believe Christ could overcome temptation simply by following His own inclinations. He had no self to be denied in the sense that we do. In order to sin Christ would actually have to do something which He found repulsive. Why would He do that? How could this possibly be conceived of as being difficult? (I don't believe I've misrepresented your thoughts here. If so, I'm sorry, and ask you to please correct.)

Quote:
Now where, in the EGW writings, is this *link* you are speaking about? What passages do you have in mind?


I said where. In DA 24. She says Christ shared in our heredity in order to share in our sorrows and temptations. This makes no sense in your view. One would have to limit our temptations to being tricked, to being tempted to do good sins, and trivialize His identity with us to being able to become hungry and tired.

Haskell quoted from "The Desire of Ages" and stated that Christ took fallen humanity with its hereditary inclinations to sin. I don't understand why you think you understand Ellen White's theology better than Haskell or Prescott or Jones or Waggoner.

Ellen White endorsed Prescott's sermon "The Word Became Flesh." You claimed you believe every word of this sermon. I pointed out you could only make this claim by not being familiar with Prescott's beliefs, and quoted a parallel passage of Prescott to prove this. Ellen White was familiar with Prescott's beliefs.

Ellen White endorsed Jones and Waggoner's message of righteousness by faith over a thousand times. Their message was tied into their belief regarding Christ's humanity. They themselves said so, both of them. One cannot deny the tie between one's belief on Original Sin and righteousness by faith. How could it be possible that Jones and Waggoner would be correct in regards to righteousness by faith while at the same time wrong in regards to Christ's human nature? Have you read their ideas on righteousness by faith?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Reply Quote
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #112786
05/08/09 03:25 AM
05/08/09 03:25 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
T:There's more to it than this.

A:Surely you don't expect me to be comprehensive in a few paragraphs, do you?

I could expect you to mention the salient point.

The point was the God had difficulty doing the right thing. If you want to enumerate more examples, feel free. I don't have the time.

My position is that doing the right thing, even if one was the very definition of right, could be very difficult. It was so for God in Heaven, it was so for God incarnate. Difficulty in doing the right thing does not require sinful flesh.

It is invalid to argue that:
1) Jesus had difficulty doing right,
2) sinful flesh has difficulty doing right,
3) therefore, Jesus had sinful flesh.

Difficulty in doing right is not limited to sinful flesh.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Reply Quote
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: asygo] #112790
05/08/09 04:29 AM
05/08/09 04:29 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
The point was the God had difficulty doing the right thing.


Why?

Quote:
If you want to enumerate more examples, feel free. I don't have the time.


More examples aren't needed. An explanation of the one you gave would be fine.

Quote:
My position is that doing the right thing, even if one was the very definition of right, could be very difficult.


What do you mean by the right thing? Why would it be difficult for God to do the right thing? You mean God was vacillating between doing the right thing and the wrong thing, and then after a lot of effort God finally decided to do the right thing?

Quote:
It was so for God in Heaven, it was so for God incarnate.


I don't see why one would think it would be difficult for God to do the right thing. The whole concept of God doing something wrong doesn't make sense to me, let alone it's being difficult for God to avoid doing so.

Quote:
Difficulty in doing the right thing does not require sinful flesh.


I think it does. Why wouldn't it?

Quote:

It is invalid to argue that:
1) Jesus had difficulty doing right,
2) sinful flesh has difficulty doing right,
3) therefore, Jesus had sinful flesh.

Difficulty in doing right is not limited to sinful flesh.


You're just asserting this. You're not providing any evidence or argument as to why this should be the case.

Do you think it was difficult for Adam and Eve not to eat the forbidden fruit? The SOP tells us specifically this was the easiest of tests God could give, that it was not difficult. Their natures were sinless. Why would it be difficult for them to do right?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Reply Quote
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Rosangela] #112791
05/08/09 04:46 AM
05/08/09 04:46 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Arnold, I realize I wrote a lot of posts in response to your post a little while back, so no problem not addressing all of them, but please address this one: #112745.

Thanks.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Reply Quote
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Elle] #112792
05/08/09 05:30 AM
05/08/09 05:30 AM
W
William  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 158
London, England
Quote:
What! Sniff, Sobb, cry I'm going to miss you William. I enjoyed reading you even tho at times I didn't understand you. Mainly due to that Accident! smile Again I greatly appreciate the sources, your thoughts, your insight, your sence of humor, your little badness, and most of all your kindness that you left us. I'm happy to hear about Annie and Bryce. Such a joy it must be for you. Enjoy. Will catch you later.

Likewise, dear Elle, likewise. (Thanks, Rosa and Arnold!) Thanks so, so much for your sweet remembrance, Elle, I will cherish it always. My experience here was unquestionably bittersweet: Sweet being here, bitter leaving here. Can't wait until there won't be any more sorrow in parting. Sigh. (Love your style, Tommy!)

Knowing I would return one last time, I thought long and hard what I should leave behind for a lasting impression; for a true spiritual blessing for my short-lived acquaintances. Or should I have said friends? I finally decided as my last labor of love to leave you a powerbloodyful sermon I outlined from a young evangelist's audio recording. Enjoy: Nicolaitans

Catch you later, too, Elle. God forever bless each one of you!

Always,

Will


:: Harmony not hate leads your opponent's mind to wisdom; beating him there always with tender heart. —Anonymous
Reply Quote
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #112798
05/08/09 10:10 AM
05/08/09 10:10 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
The point was the God had difficulty doing the right thing.

Why?

Because becoming sin is not palatable to a holy God?

You've read the EW passages about God's decision to send Jesus down. You've quoted it before. So it should be no surprise to you that implementing the plan of salvation was no walk in the park for the Godhead.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Reply Quote
Page 32 of 49 1 2 30 31 32 33 34 48 49
Quick Reply

Options
HTML is disabled
UBBCode is enabled
CAPTCHA Verification



Sabbath School Lesson Study Material Link
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
Most Recent Posts From Selected Public Forums
Seven Trumpets reconsidered
by Karen Y. 03/27/24 09:35 AM
Are the words in the Bible "imperfect"?
by Kevin H. 03/24/24 09:02 PM
The Story of David and Goliath
by ProdigalOne. 03/23/24 08:06 PM
Global Warming Farce
by kland. 03/22/24 10:17 AM
Carbon Dioxide What's so Bad about It?
by kland. 03/21/24 12:34 PM
The Value of Bible Types
by TruthinTypes. 03/17/24 06:22 PM
Orion Which Every One on the Globe Can See
by Rick H. 03/16/24 06:26 PM
'Prophet' Summons UFOs
by ProdigalOne. 03/16/24 02:19 AM
Will You Take The Wuhan Virus Vaccine?
by dedication. 03/11/24 06:31 PM
Get That Razor Wire Up!
by kland. 03/05/24 12:49 PM
Messages for This Time
by ProdigalOne. 03/04/24 05:54 AM
The Lake of Fire is Hell
by Rick H. 03/02/24 05:01 PM
Adventist Agriculture
by kland. 02/29/24 12:33 PM
Most Recent Posts From Selected Private Forums of MSDAOL
The Wound Is Healed! The Mark Is Forming!
by Rick H. 03/27/24 10:36 PM
Are we seeing a outpouring of the Holy Spirit?
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:50 PM
Time Is Short!
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:45 PM
Climate Change and the Sunday Law
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:42 PM
WHAT IS THE VERY END-TIME PROPHECY?
by Rick H. 03/23/24 06:03 PM
Digital Identity Control
by Rick H. 03/23/24 02:08 PM
A.I. - The New God?
by Rick H. 03/23/24 01:59 PM
Christian Nationalism/Sunday/C
limate Change

by ProdigalOne. 03/16/24 08:38 PM
Perils of the Emerging Church Movement
by Rick H. 03/16/24 06:30 PM
Is There A Connection Between WO & LGBTQ?
by Kevin H. 03/12/24 09:20 PM
A Second American Civil War?
by Daryl. 03/04/24 06:14 PM
Forum Announcements
Visitors by Country Since February 11, 2013
Flag Counter
Google Maritime SDA OnLine Public Forums Site Search & Google Translation Service
Google
 
Web www.maritime-sda-online.com

Copyright 2000-Present
Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine).

LEGAL NOTICE:
The views expressed in this forum are those of individuals
and do not necessarily represent those of Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine,
as well as the Seventh-day Adventist Church
from the local church level to the General Conference level.

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine) is also a self-supporting ministry
and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland
or any of its subsidiaries.

"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1