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Re: Lesson #7 - Grace [Re: Colin] #113424
05/21/09 04:06 AM
05/21/09 04:06 AM
teresaq  Offline
SDA
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Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Colin
Originally Posted By: Tom
I think it would be good to spend a thoughtful hour each day upon the life of Christ, especially the latter scenes.


Has its place, of course. Equally, how many understand how we link to the life of Christ? How many understand what justification by faith is - what the grace behind that justification is, for that is our link to Christ?

Unless we understand and experience that link study is ultimately a dead end.


says the messenger of the Lord:
Quote:
If Joseph and Mary had stayed their minds upon God by meditation and prayer, they would have realized the sacredness of their trust, and would not have lost sight of Jesus. By one day's neglect they lost the Saviour; but it cost them three days of anxious search to find Him. So with us; by idle talk, evilspeaking, or neglect of prayer, we may in one day lose the Saviour's presence, and it may take many days of sorrowful search to find Him, and regain the peace that we have lost. {DA 83.1}
In our association with one another, we should take heed lest we forget Jesus, and pass along unmindful that He is not with us. When we become absorbed in worldly things so that we have no thought for Him in whom our hope of eternal life is centered, we separate ourselves from Jesus and from the heavenly angels. These holy beings cannot remain where the Saviour's presence is not desired, and His absence is not marked. This is why discouragement so often exists among the professed followers of Christ. {DA 83.2}
Many attend religious services, and are refreshed and comforted by the word of God; but through neglect of meditation, watchfulness, and prayer, they lose the blessing, and find themselves more destitute than before they received it. Often they feel that God has dealt hardly with them. They do not see that the fault is their own. By separating themselves from Jesus, they have shut away the light of His presence. {DA 83.3}
It would be well for us to spend a thoughtful hour each day in contemplation of the life of Christ. We should take it point by point, and let the imagination grasp each scene, especially the closing ones. As we thus dwell upon His great sacrifice for us, our confidence in Him will be more constant, our love will be quickened, and we shall be more deeply imbued with His spirit. If we would be saved at last, we must learn the lesson of penitence and humiliation at the foot of the cross. {DA 83.4}
As we associate together, we may be a blessing to one another. If we are Christ's, our sweetest thoughts will be of Him. We shall love to talk of Him; and as we speak to one another of His love, our hearts will be softened by divine influences. Beholding the beauty of His character, we shall be "changed into the same image from glory to glory." 2 Corinthians 3:18. {DA 83.5}


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Lesson #7 - Grace [Re: Colin] #113425
05/21/09 04:21 AM
05/21/09 04:21 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: Colin
Quote:
Originally Posted By: teresaq
Jesus risked eternal separation from the Father so that we might have a place in heaven.


This is amazing, isn't it? I find that many lose the blessing of this concept by not believing that there was an actual risk here (False ideas regarding God's omniscience get in the way here.)


...God's omniscience??...What prevents that enormous risk being understood is misunderstanding God's nature!


In my experience, it's been more a misunderstanding of God's omniscience than anything else that has caused this truth to be misunderstood. Many people think that God's knowledge of the future is fixed, that God sees one specific thing that will happen, and that this one thing will come to pass. Obviously, if one has this idea, a risk being undertaken makes no sense.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #7 - Grace [Re: Colin] #113426
05/21/09 04:23 AM
05/21/09 04:23 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Has its place, of course. Equally, how many understand how we link to the life of Christ? How many understand what justification by faith is - what the grace behind that justification is, for that is our link to Christ?

Unless we understand and experience that link study is ultimately a dead end.


I agree that understanding the link is very important, but surely one can profit from studying Christ's life even without understanding this. Some of the gain will be lost, from the standpoint of applying Christ's experience to ours, but there's an even more important reason to studying Christ's life, which is to understand God's character.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #7 - Grace [Re: Tom] #113429
05/21/09 05:59 AM
05/21/09 05:59 AM
dedication  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,419
Canada
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
Has its place, of course. Equally, how many understand how we link to the life of Christ? How many understand what justification by faith is - what the grace behind that justification is, for that is our link to Christ?

Unless we understand and experience that link study is ultimately a dead end.


I agree that understanding the link is very important, but surely one can profit from studying Christ's life even without understanding this. Some of the gain will be lost, from the standpoint of applying Christ's experience to ours, but there's an even more important reason to studying Christ's life, which is to understand God's character.


I agree we need to "know God and His Son Jesus Christ".
John 17:3 tells us to know God is life eternal.

But care must be taken
the finite mind can never fully understand the infinite.
We see through a glass darkly.

Also, there appears to be a lot of focusing on a few passages and setting them up as the TOTAL and exclusive true view, and forcing all other passages to say something they aren't really saying in order to present the few passages as the TOTALLY AND ONLY right view of God. That can lead to a wrong understanding.

I agree with Colin, that we must understand the salvation issues of justification and sanctification and the relationship between God and man, as an important link.

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Re: Lesson #7 - Grace [Re: Tom] #113430
05/21/09 06:41 AM
05/21/09 06:41 AM
dedication  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,419
Canada
Originally Posted By: Tom

In my experience, it's been more a misunderstanding of God's omniscience than anything else that has caused this truth to be misunderstood. Many people think that God's knowledge of the future is fixed, that God sees one specific thing that will happen, and that this one thing will come to pass. Obviously, if one has this idea, a risk being undertaken makes no sense.


Don't you believe that God's omniscience sees the future as if it were the present?
How else could He give prophets visions in which they see, hear, experience events in the future?

God's for-knowledge knows exactly WHAT will happen. But that doesn't FIX or determine how created beings will act, they still make their own choices, and God does not allow His forknowledge to stop Him offering His gift of love and salvation to each one. No one in that judgment day will be able to say -- God wasn't fair to me, all will say "God's ways are righteous and just."

It's true that God offers and provides better alternatives, and knows IF the people would only choose His better way, what conditions would be like for them if they did. God urges people to follow the better way, and reveals to them what could if they did. But that doesn't mean He didn't KNOW what their choice will be.

We must be careful not to put human rational upon God.
Human thoughts tend to be rather narrow. If we know something won't work, we don't try it. If we know something will work, we tend to get careless.
But God's thoughts are not like ours -- even though HE KNOWS exactly what everyone will do, His justice and love offers His creatures better alternatives and calls them and encourages them, to choose the better way. They will have no reason to accuse God of NOT providing the way of salvation for them.

Did God know Christ would be victorious?
I believe He did.
For 4000 years He offered people salvation based on Christ's atoning sacrifice prior to the cross.
Enoch, Elijah, Moses were in heaven, not because they earned their way there, but because God knew Christ's blood "the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth" atones for their sins.

Was it a risk?
Yes!
God's forknowledge didn't lessen the ordeal that had to be lived through. It didn't lessen the temptations and the struggles.

Why question His omniscience? Are we trying to fit Him into our concept of what He should be like?

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Re: Lesson #7 - Grace [Re: dedication] #113436
05/21/09 03:32 PM
05/21/09 03:32 PM
teresaq  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: dedication


Also, there appears to be a lot of focusing on a few passages and setting them up as the TOTAL and exclusive true view, and forcing all other passages to say something they aren't really saying in order to present the few passages as the TOTALLY AND ONLY right view of God. That can lead to a wrong understanding.


what is that based on? what passages of what are being forced to say "something they aren't really saying in order to present the few passages as the TOTALLY AND ONLY right view of God."


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Lesson #7 - Grace [Re: teresaq] #113439
05/21/09 04:19 PM
05/21/09 04:19 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Dedication, I'll just comment briefly. If you'd like to start a thread on this, I'd be happy to participate, and comment in much more detail.

God sees the future as it really is, which is not fixed, like the past, but open. When the SOP said that Christ came at the risk of failure and eternal loss, that means it was possible that this could happen, and this is one of the possibilities God foresaw. We should be careful not to have a view of God's omniscience which makes it logically impossible for there to be more than one possible outcome.

Here's an example of the conflicting logic I was mentioning:

Quote:
Did God know Christ would be victorious?
I believe He did...

Was it a risk?
Yes!


If you know the outcome of an event, then there is no risk. This is why there are laws against insider trading, for example.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #7 - Grace [Re: Tom] #113440
05/21/09 04:38 PM
05/21/09 04:38 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
I agree with Colin, that we must understand the salvation issues of justification and sanctification and the relationship between God and man, as an important link.


I think that what Colin has in mind as the link is the link between Christ's taking our fallen nature and making it possible for us to overcome.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Reply Quote
Re: Lesson #7 - Grace [Re: Tom] #113441
05/21/09 04:40 PM
05/21/09 04:40 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Also, there appears to be a lot of focusing on a few passages and setting them up as the TOTAL and exclusive true view, and forcing all other passages to say something they aren't really saying in order to present the few passages as the TOTALLY AND ONLY right view of God. That can lead to a wrong understanding.


Perhaps what one thinks the "other passages" is saying is not what they are really saying. A view that presents a consistent view of God is laudable.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #7 - Grace [Re: Tom] #113445
05/21/09 06:32 PM
05/21/09 06:32 PM
teresaq  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
dedication: Also, there appears to be a lot of focusing on a few passages and setting them up as the TOTAL and exclusive true view, and forcing all other passages to say something they aren't really saying in order to present the few passages as the TOTALLY AND ONLY right view of God. That can lead to a wrong understanding.


Perhaps what one thinks the "other passages" is saying is not what they are really saying. A view that presents a consistent view of God is laudable.


yes, but what passages? how were they forced to say other than what they say?

one shouldnt throw out accusations without taking the exact texts and showing how they were forced into a wrong direction. otherwise they are just accusations that could be falsely accusing the brethern, in other words breaking the very law one claims to uphold. that seems to me something we should be very careful to avoid.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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