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Re: plagues
[Re: asygo]
#116488
07/22/09 05:11 AM
07/22/09 05:11 AM
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OP
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[quote=teresaq]in other words what specific example of God withholding something given in the bible are you referring to, and how that would resemble withholding food from your son for 2 days in punishment. God withheld rain for 3.5 years. It resembles the "no food for 2 days" because it is very hard to grow food without rain. Especially if the drought lasts 3.5 years. but food was available. no matter what famines there were/are there is always food available somewhere, and if it werent for evil men, could be had by those in need. God withheld rain, but He didnt withhold food. in doing a search im hardput to find where God didnt provide food in times of famine, whether from war or because He had withheld rain, His blessing. the only thing i can find is evil men withholding food, such as in the seiges of jerusalem. but even then if the people had surrendered as they had been told to do.... Oh, you thought I was going to prevent my son from eating? No. I would just withhold food. He would be free to go shopping, cook, beg, whatever he wanted to do. But being 8 years old, he might have some difficulty. But I would guess not as much difficulty as the Israelites would have had in asking for food from the Assyrians, Egyptians, Babylonians, etc. But I think your point is that God was not responsible for any suffering in Israel, since there were so many good neighbors to get food from, so killing off the vegetation in Israel by a 3.5 year drought wasn't really a big deal. I suppose one could look at it that way, but it sounds a little ridiculous. But if I am ever tried for making my 8 year old son scavenge for food to keep from starving, I'll ask my lawyer to make sure you are on the jury.  BTW, if it wasn't for evil men, there would have been no drought in Israel. So I think God knew in advance that Israel would suffer through the drought, and not get any help from evil men. He wasn't caught by surprise that the Egyptians didn't come running with fruit baskets. [/quote] start teresas post: no. actually you have no clue what i think. i just went and did some studying. im sorry but im having a hard time seeing how your answer relates to the points i brought up. as i said i went back and did some study on the 3 year drought and saw nothing regarding some of your statements. could you go back, please, and base your response on what i did say?
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: plagues
[Re: teresaq]
#116492
07/22/09 05:30 AM
07/22/09 05:30 AM
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im sorry but im having a hard time seeing how your answer relates to the points i brought up. as i said i went back and did some study on the 3 year drought and saw nothing regarding some of your statements. I think you're trying to read too much between the lines. What I'm saying is very simple. 1) God withheld rain for 3.5 years. 2) It resulted in no food in Israel. 3) That led to suffering. 4) God was not surprised that this happened. 5) If He didn't want it to happen, He didn't have to wait 3.5 years to send rain. 6) The people, after suffering through drought, learned that Baal cannot provide for them, and were led back to God by Elijah. Simple statements. It shouldn't take too much scholarship to figure out that these happened. It seems to me that Tom is saying that either Satan caused these things to happen or it was just a fortuitous sequence of natural events, resulting in a great spiritual revival. In contrast, I think God should be credited for it. could you go back, please, and base your response on what i did say? Please refresh my memory. I have no idea what points you are talking about. What's the post#?
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: plagues
[Re: asygo]
#116500
07/22/09 12:52 PM
07/22/09 12:52 PM
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asygo, at first I thought you were trying to say Teresa should pick a different analogy. But now, unless I'm mistaken, it appears that you are criticizing her for defending a god who is very much evil.
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Re: plagues
[Re: kland]
#116512
07/22/09 03:56 PM
07/22/09 03:56 PM
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Evil? No, God is good. Very good.
But He chastens whom He loves. That's part of His goodness. If He was evil, He would either just leave us alone to reap what we have sown, or let Satan have his way with us.
I don't know what tq is defending. She says she agrees with me, then she doesn't. She is right; I have no clue what she thinks.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: plagues
[Re: asygo]
#116521
07/22/09 06:09 PM
07/22/09 06:09 PM
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im sorry but im having a hard time seeing how your answer relates to the points i brought up. as i said i went back and did some study on the 3 year drought and saw nothing regarding some of your statements. I think you're trying to read too much between the lines. What I'm saying is very simple. 1) God withheld rain for 3.5 years. 2) It resulted in no food in Israel. 3) That led to suffering. 4) God was not surprised that this happened. 5) If He didn't want it to happen, He didn't have to wait 3.5 years to send rain. 6) The people, after suffering through drought, learned that Baal cannot provide for them, and were led back to God by Elijah. Simple statements. It shouldn't take too much scholarship to figure out that these happened. It seems to me that Tom is saying that either Satan caused these things to happen or it was just a fortuitous sequence of natural events, resulting in a great spiritual revival. In contrast, I think God should be credited for it. could you go back, please, and base your response on what i did say? Please refresh my memory. I have no idea what points you are talking about. What's the post#? im not sure where the confusion is. you posted some thoughts that did not seem to have anything to do with what i said. post 116448 immediately preceding your response above: [quote=asygo][quote=teresaq]in other words what specific example of God withholding something given in the bible are you referring to, and how that would resemble withholding food from your son for 2 days in punishment. God withheld rain for 3.5 years. It resembles the "no food for 2 days" because it is very hard to grow food without rain. Especially if the drought lasts 3.5 years. but food was available. no matter what famines there were/are there is always food available somewhere, and if it werent for evil men, could be had by those in need. God withheld rain, but He didnt withhold food. in doing a search im hardput to find where God didnt provide food in times of famine, whether from war or because He had withheld rain, His blessing. the only thing i can find is evil men withholding food, such as in the seiges of jerusalem. but even then if the people had surrendered as they had been told to do.... Oh, you thought I was going to prevent my son from eating? No. I would just withhold food. He would be free to go shopping, cook, beg, whatever he wanted to do. But being 8 years old, he might have some difficulty. But I would guess not as much difficulty as the Israelites would have had in asking for food from the Assyrians, Egyptians, Babylonians, etc. But I think your point is that God was not responsible for any suffering in Israel, since there were so many good neighbors to get food from, so killing off the vegetation in Israel by a 3.5 year drought wasn't really a big deal. I suppose one could look at it that way, but it sounds a little ridiculous. But if I am ever tried for making my 8 year old son scavenge for food to keep from starving, I'll ask my lawyer to make sure you are on the jury. BTW, if it wasn't for evil men, there would have been no drought in Israel. So I think God knew in advance that Israel would suffer through the drought, and not get any help from evil men. He wasn't caught by surprise that the Egyptians didn't come running with fruit baskets. [/quote] start teresas post: no. actually you have no clue what i think. i just went and did some studying. im sorry but im having a hard time seeing how your answer relates to the points i brought up. as i said i went back and did some study on the 3 year drought and saw nothing regarding some of your statements. could you go back, please, and base your response on what i did say? [/quote] i will just deal with them one point at a time.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: plagues
[Re: teresaq]
#116522
07/22/09 06:13 PM
07/22/09 06:13 PM
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is that how people in the church study?  from #116360 exploring the plagues, one by one, not generally.
im more interested in what happened in each plague, Gods reason and His purpose. in other words im more interested in getting to know God better. i can send you a link, if you like, that will show you what i mean. it might set your fears to rest, if you have them, that i have no "secret" agenda, but am honestly studying and searching. Bummer! By nature, I'm a people pleaser; and I hate it when my attempts fail. Sorry. Better luck next time.
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Re: plagues
[Re: teresaq]
#116523
07/22/09 06:46 PM
07/22/09 06:46 PM
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OP
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taking your post #116466 one point at a time while keeping the context, #116454 in other words what specific example of God withholding something given in the bible are you referring to, and how that would resemble withholding food from your son for 2 days in punishment. God withheld rain for 3.5 years. It resembles the "no food for 2 days" because it is very hard to grow food without rain. Especially if the drought lasts 3.5 years. but food was available. no matter what famines there were/are there is always food available somewhere, and if it werent for evil men, could be had by those in need. God withheld rain, but He didnt withhold food. in doing a search im hardput to find where God didnt provide food in times of famine, whether from war or because He had withheld rain, His blessing. the only thing i can find is evil men withholding food, such as in the seiges of jerusalem. but even then if the people had surrendered as they had been told to do.... your response #116466 Oh, you thought I was going to prevent my son from eating? No. I would just withhold food. He would be free to go shopping, cook, beg, whatever he wanted to do. But being 8 years old, he might have some difficulty. But I would guess not as much difficulty as the Israelites would have had in asking for food from the Assyrians, Egyptians, Babylonians, etc. But I think your point is that God was not responsible for any suffering in Israel, since there were so many good neighbors to get food from, so killing off the vegetation in Israel by a 3.5 year drought wasn't really a big deal. I suppose one could look at it that way, but it sounds a little ridiculous. But if I am ever tried for making my 8 year old son scavenge for food to keep from starving, I'll ask my lawyer to make sure you are on the jury. BTW, if it wasn't for evil men, there would have been no drought in Israel. So I think God knew in advance that Israel would suffer through the drought, and not get any help from evil men. He wasn't caught by surprise that the Egyptians didn't come running with fruit baskets. first point that you stated: Oh, you thought I was going to prevent my son from eating? No. I would just withhold food. He would be free to go shopping, cook, beg, whatever he wanted to do. But being 8 years old, he might have some difficulty. not to be rude but, huh?! i mean i dont understand where you saw "prevent"...my point was that yes, God did withhold His blessing by withholding the rain, but in reviewing the incident i didnt see where anyone starved to death, hence my comments. it isnt recorded. several similar incidences come to mind. so, for me, withholding the rain was not withholding food from the people. if it had been global, then yes, as the food ran out globally God would, indirectly, have been withholding food.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: plagues
[Re: teresaq]
#116524
07/22/09 06:54 PM
07/22/09 06:54 PM
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OP
SDA
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
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taking your post #116466 one point at a time while keeping the context, #116454 in other words what specific example of God withholding something given in the bible are you referring to, and how that would resemble withholding food from your son for 2 days in punishment. God withheld rain for 3.5 years. It resembles the "no food for 2 days" because it is very hard to grow food without rain. Especially if the drought lasts 3.5 years. but food was available. no matter what famines there were/are there is always food available somewhere, and if it werent for evil men, could be had by those in need. God withheld rain, but He didnt withhold food. in doing a search im hardput to find where God didnt provide food in times of famine, whether from war or because He had withheld rain, His blessing. the only thing i can find is evil men withholding food, such as in the seiges of jerusalem. but even then if the people had surrendered as they had been told to do.... your response #116466 Oh, you thought I was going to prevent my son from eating? No. I would just withhold food. He would be free to go shopping, cook, beg, whatever he wanted to do. But being 8 years old, he might have some difficulty. But I would guess not as much difficulty as the Israelites would have had in asking for food from the Assyrians, Egyptians, Babylonians, etc. But I think your point is that God was not responsible for any suffering in Israel, since there were so many good neighbors to get food from, so killing off the vegetation in Israel by a 3.5 year drought wasn't really a big deal. I suppose one could look at it that way, but it sounds a little ridiculous. But if I am ever tried for making my 8 year old son scavenge for food to keep from starving, I'll ask my lawyer to make sure you are on the jury. BTW, if it wasn't for evil men, there would have been no drought in Israel. So I think God knew in advance that Israel would suffer through the drought, and not get any help from evil men. He wasn't caught by surprise that the Egyptians didn't come running with fruit baskets. second point: But I would guess not as much difficulty as the Israelites would have had in asking for food from the Assyrians, Egyptians, Babylonians, etc. they wouldnt have been able to buy food from their neighbors? they didnt have alliances and trade? is there any biblical/sop basis for that assumption?
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: plagues
[Re: teresaq]
#116526
07/22/09 07:16 PM
07/22/09 07:16 PM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2024
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
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taking your post #116466 one point at a time while keeping the context, #116454 in other words what specific example of God withholding something given in the bible are you referring to, and how that would resemble withholding food from your son for 2 days in punishment. God withheld rain for 3.5 years. It resembles the "no food for 2 days" because it is very hard to grow food without rain. Especially if the drought lasts 3.5 years. but food was available. no matter what famines there were/are there is always food available somewhere, and if it werent for evil men, could be had by those in need. God withheld rain, but He didnt withhold food. in doing a search im hardput to find where God didnt provide food in times of famine, whether from war or because He had withheld rain, His blessing. the only thing i can find is evil men withholding food, such as in the seiges of jerusalem. but even then if the people had surrendered as they had been told to do.... your response #116466 Oh, you thought I was going to prevent my son from eating? No. I would just withhold food. He would be free to go shopping, cook, beg, whatever he wanted to do. But being 8 years old, he might have some difficulty. But I would guess not as much difficulty as the Israelites would have had in asking for food from the Assyrians, Egyptians, Babylonians, etc. But I think your point is that God was not responsible for any suffering in Israel, since there were so many good neighbors to get food from, so killing off the vegetation in Israel by a 3.5 year drought wasn't really a big deal. I suppose one could look at it that way, but it sounds a little ridiculous. But if I am ever tried for making my 8 year old son scavenge for food to keep from starving, I'll ask my lawyer to make sure you are on the jury. BTW, if it wasn't for evil men, there would have been no drought in Israel. So I think God knew in advance that Israel would suffer through the drought, and not get any help from evil men. He wasn't caught by surprise that the Egyptians didn't come running with fruit baskets. third point: But I think your point is that God was not responsible for any suffering in Israel, since there were so many good neighbors to get food from, so killing off the vegetation in Israel by a 3.5 year drought wasn't really a big deal. thats an interesting assumption, but i cant see where its based on anything i have said.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: plagues
[Re: teresaq]
#116527
07/22/09 07:22 PM
07/22/09 07:22 PM
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OP
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taking your post #116466 one point at a time while keeping the context, #116454 in other words what specific example of God withholding something given in the bible are you referring to, and how that would resemble withholding food from your son for 2 days in punishment. God withheld rain for 3.5 years. It resembles the "no food for 2 days" because it is very hard to grow food without rain. Especially if the drought lasts 3.5 years. but food was available. no matter what famines there were/are there is always food available somewhere, and if it werent for evil men, could be had by those in need. God withheld rain, but He didnt withhold food. in doing a search im hardput to find where God didnt provide food in times of famine, whether from war or because He had withheld rain, His blessing. the only thing i can find is evil men withholding food, such as in the seiges of jerusalem. but even then if the people had surrendered as they had been told to do.... your response #116466 Oh, you thought I was going to prevent my son from eating? No. I would just withhold food. He would be free to go shopping, cook, beg, whatever he wanted to do. But being 8 years old, he might have some difficulty. But I would guess not as much difficulty as the Israelites would have had in asking for food from the Assyrians, Egyptians, Babylonians, etc. But I think your point is that God was not responsible for any suffering in Israel, since there were so many good neighbors to get food from, so killing off the vegetation in Israel by a 3.5 year drought wasn't really a big deal. I suppose one could look at it that way, but it sounds a little ridiculous. But if I am ever tried for making my 8 year old son scavenge for food to keep from starving, I'll ask my lawyer to make sure you are on the jury. BTW, if it wasn't for evil men, there would have been no drought in Israel. So I think God knew in advance that Israel would suffer through the drought, and not get any help from evil men. He wasn't caught by surprise that the Egyptians didn't come running with fruit baskets. fourth point: so i cant see in all this how a parent withholding food from their child for two days in punishment for something equates to God withholding rain for three years. i guess it all has to do with ones perspective. withholding food from my child, or any child, for two days for any reason, other than illness, is beyond my comprehension. whereas God withholding rain i see as a wakeup call, not punitive. Now there is an opportunity for apostate Ahab and pagan Jezebel to test the power of their gods, and to prove the word of Elijah false. Jezebel's prophets are numbered by hundreds. Against them all, stands Elijah, alone. His word has locked heaven. If Baal can give dew and rain, and cause the vegetation to flourish, if he can cause the brooks and streams of water to flow on as usual, independent of the treasures of heaven, in the showers of rain, then let the king of Israel worship him, and the people say he is God. {RH, September 23, 1873 par. 21}
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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