Tom, I am reposting this for your convenience:

mm, i am reposting this for your convenience. last page
117085 and thank you very for rewording this more to this topic. that is highly appreciated!

"lice came out of dust" Tom, it sounds like you're suggesting that the lice was in or on the dust and that God simply withdrew His protection and permitted the lice to do what they would naturally do were it not for God preventing it, namely, to infest and harass the people.

The following passages say that the plague of lice was "produced", that the dust was "caused" to become lice, that the dust "became" lice, that the dust would "turn into" lice. The magicians attempted to do what you seem to be suggesting but were unable "to bring forth lice". Are you suggesting God was incapable of turning dust into lice? Or, are you saying it is unlike God to do such a thing?

Exodus
8:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Stretch out thy rod, and smite the dust of the land, that it may become lice throughout all the land of Egypt.
8:17 And they did so; for Aaron stretched out his hand with his rod, and smote the dust of the earth, and it became lice in man, and in beast; all the dust of the land became lice throughout all the land of Egypt.
8:18 And the magicians did so with their enchantments to bring forth lice, but they could not: so there were lice upon man, and upon beast.
8:19 Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This [is] the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

3SG 209
The Lord listened to the entreaties of Moses, and stayed the plague of the frogs. When the king was relieved of his immediate distress, he again stubbornly refused to let Israel go. Moses and Aaron, at the commandment of the Lord, caused the dust of the land to become lice throughout all the land of Egypt. Pharaoh called the magicians to stand before him to do the same with their enchantments, but they could not. Moses and Aaron, the servants of God, at his command, produced the plague of the lice. The magicians, the servants of Satan, at his command tried to produce the same with their enchantments, but could not. The work of God was shown superior to the power of Satan; for the magicians with their enchantments could perform but a few things. When the magicians saw that they could not produce the lice, they said unto Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God. And Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them, as the Lord had said." {3SG 209.1}

(ASV) And Jehovah said unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Stretch out thy rod, and smite the dust of the earth, that it may become lice throughout all the land of Egypt.

(CEV) The LORD said to Moses, "Command Aaron to strike the ground with his walking stick, and everywhere in Egypt the dust will turn into gnats."

(KJVA) And the LORD said unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Stretch out thy rod, and smite the dust of the land, that it may become lice throughout all the land of Egypt.

(LITV) And Jehovah said to Moses, Say to Aaron, Stretch out your staff and strike the dust of the earth, and let it become lice in all the land of Egypt.

(MKJV) And Jehovah said to Moses, Say to Aaron: Stretch out your rod, and strike the dust of the land, so that it may become lice throughout all the land of Egypt.

(RV) And the LORD said unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Stretch out thy rod, and smite the dust of the earth, that it may become lice throughout all the land of Egypt.

(YLT) And Jehovah saith unto Moses, `Say unto Aaron, Stretch out thy rod, and smite the dust of the land, and it hath become gnats in all the land of Egypt.'

I addressed this MM. I said:



Scripture says God sent fiery serpents upon the Israelites.

(KJV)And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

(NASB)The LORD sent fiery serpents among the people and (H)they bit the people, so that (I)many people of Israel died.

(CEV)Then the LORD sent poisonous snakes that bit and killed many of them.

(RSV)And Jehovah sendeth among the people the burning serpents, and they bite the people, and much people of Israel die;

Tom, I don't see the similarities between God turning dust into lice and God permitting the snakes in the area to bite the COI. Are you suggesting God did something like turn sticks into snakes? Or, are you saying God permitted the lice in the area to bite the Egyptians? If so, what is the difference between God creating lice out of dust and then permitting them to bite the people?

Remember, don't forget, I am in agreement that there are times when God employs the "withdraw and permit" principle in allowing death and destruction to happen. We are only discussing those times I believe He actually caused it Himself or commanded holy angels to do it.

Did you read teresa's post, right before mine? (where she posted what I had written before, and highlighted certain portions)



MM, please, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't do this. I've pointed out on several occasions that I would prefer the language the SOP uses, that God was caused to remove His protection. So why not write "I am in agreement that there are times when God is caused to remove His protection"? I've explained why I think your choice of words is inferior. From my point of view, it assumes a false premise (or could be easily construed that way).

The problem here is you write "I am in agreement," and then follow that with something *you* agree with, rather than something *I* agree with. That's where the false assumption comes in. If you wish to write "I am in agreement ..." then you need to follow that with something I actually agree with!

You claim you are only discussing cases where God "actually caused it Himself." I claim you are discussing cases where God's protection was caused to be removed.

I don't believe God can *ever* be caused to act contrary to His character, and that God's character was fully, perfectly, and completely revealed by Jesus Christ. Given that it was, you'd have to show me somewhere in Jesus Christ's life in His humanity where He directly caused death and destruction. If you can't do this, then I don't see how it's even possible that God could have done so elsewhere.

for me, mm, the difference is whether God is showing how He has been protecting everyone, good and evil, all along,

or whether Hes like us and getting vengence, or punitive.

would that make sense?

by the way, i can go either way. either the eggs were there all along and God had been controlling the lice population or that He created them. until i wrote this, i could. now it seems to me He was showing how He had been protecting them.

A story is told of a young girl sitting on a park bench reading a Christian paper. As an atheist approaches, she cries out "Praise the Lord!" The atheist comes over to see what the excitement is about and learns that the girl had just read how God had opened up a path through the Red Sea for the children of Israel to go through. The atheist proceeds to carefully explain how the Red Sea is called the "Reed Sea" in modern times, and that its water is only a few inches deep. With a smug smile, the atheist goes on his way, only to hear shrieks of delight and more "Praise the Lord!" calls from the girl. He turns back to find out what the matter is. The girl says "God just drowned the entire Egyptian army in only a few inches of water!"

I see the plagues in a very similar light. God's actions cannot be explained away under the guise of "natural phenomena," nor can they be said to be merely God having withdrawn His protection and passively allowing the events described to take place. Nevertheless, if we were to suppose for a moment that God DID merely withdraw His protection....what might it have been like?

With that thought in mind, I have tried to explain the plagues, as follows.

NOTE: I do not espouse the interpretations that follow, I merely consider them here in a semi-serious, light-hearted way.

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According to the "withdraw and permit" principle, the following (or similar explanation) must needs be true:

Ten Plagues (with history slightly updated)

1. God had been purifying the polluted water of the Egyptians all along so that they would have something to drink. Now, God stops protecting the water, and lets it become blood. (But after one week, He protects it again so that it will be water.)
2. Now, even while the river was unprotected, and bloody, God still protected all of the frogs' eggs which He had been shielding from both the pollution and the blood, and had been maintaining dormant as a mercy to the poor Egyptians. Now, God withdraws His protection so that the Egyptians can taste the reality of frogs--everywhere!
3. The dust upon which the Egyptians walked was teeming with lice eggs, but God protected them from the eggs. God did not even allow the magicians to find those eggs when trying to repeat Moses' "trick", and this was after God had already withdrawn His protection so that lice covered the land of Egypt like dust.
4. While those frogs lay in stinking heaps, God was building up His army of flies! Now, by "permitting" them to come, He "allows" the flies to swarm out in unison...except for in Goshen. The frogs in Goshen had not drawn flies, so they still stank without nature's remedy.
5. Now, the flies had distributed an infectious disease among all of the cattle. So when the plague of murain came, it was actually just a natural outbreak with serendipitous timing.
6. The boils came from the same plague of the murain, which managed to infect the poor Egyptians as they buried their dead cattle. God was unmerciful in not protecting them.
7. God had been protecting the Egyptians from the scourge of hail all along, and so the upper atmosphere had such a weight of hail that when God withdrew His protection, it became such a hailstorm as they had never known before. If only God had not protected them so much, perhaps the hail would have come down a little at a time and caused no damage. But by withdrawing His protection now, He would prove He was God. Had He not predicted it?
8. The army of locusts had been around all along too, but God had been preventing the winds from blowing them toward Egypt. Now, it was but a simple matter to withdraw that protection so that the locusts would devour the remnant of the Egyptian crops.
9. This miracle is amazing! God has been protecting the entire earth all along from the power of a "black hole" which would eat up our sunshine. However, just to prove to the Egyptians who He was, He withdrew that protection for three days...ONLY for the part of the land where the Egyptians lived!
10. The last plague was easy, of course. God always preserves our lives. The only part that makes me wonder is why He must preserve us from His own holy angels, who would kill us otherwise? But, I guess God preserved Balaam from His angel with the sword too, and Moses' life was preserved when similarly met in the wilderness by an angel with drawn sword. So God must have withdrawn His protection from His destroying angel for those poor firstborn.

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Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Tom and Teresa,

Believing what the Bible says about God causing the plagues in no way means that I believe God is vengeful and vindictive. Though He does say "vengeance is mine," that is to keep me from harboring unforgiveness in the face of a very unfair world in which justice is frequently lacking. That is God's way of reassuring me that He will settle accounts later, and that I need not concern myself with it, but that I may simply trust Him, forgive others, and remember it no more. God knows I will be happier this way, so He takes the duty for vengeance Himself, and releases me of its burden.

God is merciful. Yet there are limits to His mercy. Those limits are also merciful.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.