my apologies for prolonging this...i realize that on discussion boards making amends or righting wrongs, as in apologizing in this case, is a relatively unknown concept but i cannot do so until i understand how i have offended.

i do not consider myself as when im in a hurry and sometimes misread or misunderstand the intent of a post

but if the impression given was that i was saying someone else was then i do sincerely apologize.

from what i understand of the counsel given public blunders should be acknowledged publicly and so i do.

I have asked to return to the topic. I will not indulge, nor entertain you.
God Bless,
Will

Is it your understanding is that the wicked will be literally set on fire? For days or hours? And they're set on fire proportionately to their sin?

What does the "such teaching" in the passage refer to?

As for "elements of cruelty" in either view, that's a very subjective judgment. Some people think I'm cruel for not letting my kids run my house. But regardless of what you and I think may be cruel, what God says will happen is what's going to happen. He is not limited by our ideas of right and wrong.

Doesn't your view include torment for the lost? Sure, limited duration, but torment nonetheless.

But, you might say, in your view the torment comes from the sinner's mental anguish upon the realization of his true condition. I say, so what? Is the mental anguish of your view more or less painful than the physical pain of being burned? Furthermore, is the mental anguish of your view more or less painful than just being allowed to remain permanently dead, as opposed to being resurrected and having to see God, the saved, the New Jerusalem, then finally suffering through mental anguish of such magnitude that it proves fatal even to Satan, who was able to survive all these years separated from God?

It seems that while you recoil at the idea of the lost literally burning, you prefer the idea of their brains exploding from the inside out, through a process that makes clear to them the poor choices they have made. Kind of like recounting someone's failures to them until you drive them insane. Cruel? Some would say so.

What did Jesus experience? While we know that He suffered great physical trauma, was His suffering primarily physical?

To this:



At least this, in context, needs to be included, IMO.



I don't think considering setting someone on fire and keeping him burning for hours or days on end is cruel is particularly subjective. It's hard to imagine anyone not considering this to be cruel or Satanic. It sounds exactly like something Satan would do, or inspire one to do. Indeed, in the Middle Ages people tried to do this very thing, to figure out how to prolong a person's life, so they could be burned at the stake for a longer period of time, to make the suffering last longer. Of course, they weren't literally set on fire, which would kill a person very quickly, but the idea is similar.



I don't see God as arbitrarily causing torment to the lost at all, even for a limited duration. The torment they suffer is of their own doing.



So what? You don't perceive a difference between arbitrarily (i.e. by imposition) causing pain to someone else and their suffering pain because of an action they take themselves?



I can think of nothing that would be less painful than being set on fire.



The issue is if God is acting cruelly, and arbitrarily torturing individuals He's selected for such treatment. Regarding my view, it sounds as if you're suggesting that having any judgment at all is cruel on God's part?



Of course. Don't you? This begs the same question Ellen White asked:



Even to be discussing the possibility that a person who professes to love God and believe that He was perfectly revealed by Jesus Christ would set people on fire for hours or days is just dumbfounding to me. I cannot conceive of how a person could think this.



Arnold, you seem intent on thinking that God must act cruelly. Your defense to my suggestion that your view is cruel is that mine is to, and you're suggesting this in a preposterous way: "you prefer the idea of their brains exploding from the inside out". This is certainly not anything I've suggested, which you're, of course, aware of.

I'm suggesting that God does not act cruelly at all. Not even 1%.

In the GC passage pages 541-543 EGW discusses the principles of the judgment. She brings out that the principles of love and mercy are used by God in the judgment. She points out that the judgment of the wicked takes place for their own good. I cannot see how your view cold possibly be construed as God's doing something for their own good. How could setting them on fire for hours or days of the end be for their own good? What possible purpose could there be for burning someone?

I have inferred from your response that you believe God will literally set people on fire for hours or days on end. Before discussing this further, I would like you to confirm that I've understood your response to this point correctly.

Consider taking someone who has irrevocably chosen to be separated from God, such as Lucifer, and making him live with the consequences of that decision for thousands of years before putting him out of his misery. Wouldn't you say that living in opposition to God for millennia causes quite a bit of suffering? Which causes more suffering: physically burn for a few days or live in conscious and constant rebellion against God for 6 thousand years? Which is more "cruel"?

Hold on here. You do agree with me that when the saved are in Heaven during the Millennium, the lost are dead on Earth, yes? Dead, no pain, not knowing anything, right?

Yet, you have them, at some future time, coming back to life and suffering untold mental anguish. Who is able to bring the dead back to life, enabling them to suffer such mental anguish? Only God. I trust you do not disagree.

Whether the suffering is imposed or innate, the fact is that God gives the lost the ability to experience it.

God could just as easily judge them while they are dead. In fact, that's near the top of the to-do list during the Millennium. Once the universe has seen the justice of God's judgment, what's the point of bringing them back? Just so they could suffer the anguish of knowing what they have lost, then die?

I'm not suggesting God acts cruelly. I just try to figure out what He's going to do, and trust that He is good. Unlike Lucifer and Eve, I do not want to give myself the job of judging whether or not God is right. That job has a terrible retirement package.