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Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Tom] #119325
09/17/09 02:26 AM
09/17/09 02:26 AM
asygo  Offline
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Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
I have inferred from your response that you believe God will literally set people on fire for hours or days on end. Before discussing this further, I would like you to confirm that I've understood your response to this point correctly.

I can't say for sure that He will or He won't, but I'm leaning toward He will. When it is actually happening, I'll know for sure. But either way, I believe the physical suffering will be insignificant.
Quote:
But now with the terrible weight of guilt He bears, He cannot see the Father's reconciling face. The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. So great was this agony that His physical pain was hardly felt. {DA 753.1}

When the lost experience the final and permanent withdrawal of God's countenance, whatever may be happening to their bodies will be hardly felt.

That's why I asked you about Christ's experience. It gives us an idea about what the lost will experience. It also reveals to us God's character, what He is willing to do to address sin.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: asygo] #119331
09/17/09 03:12 AM
09/17/09 03:12 AM
Tom  Offline
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Lawrence, Kansas
I do think the wicked's experience will be similar to Christ's. However, I don't believe it's possible to be physically set on fire and be able to think about anything at all, other than the excruciating pain you're feeling.

In order for a person to be set on fire, and continue to burn for hours or days, God would have to be supernaturally intervening, in order to permit the person to suffer excruciating pain without dying, correct? What would be the purpose of God's doing this to someone? This fits with your concept of God?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: asygo] #119332
09/17/09 03:24 AM
09/17/09 03:24 AM
Tom  Offline
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
T:Consider taking someone who has irrevocably chosen to be separated from God, such as Lucifer, and making him live with the consequences of that decision for thousands of years before putting him out of his misery. Wouldn't you say that living in opposition to God for millennia causes quite a bit of suffering? Which causes more suffering: physically burn for a few days or live in conscious and constant rebellion against God for 6 thousand years? Which is more "cruel"?


Setting someone on fire is more cruel. God is not cruel at all. He does nothing cruel. Cruelty is Satanic.

Quote:
T:The issue is if God is acting cruelly, and arbitrarily torturing individuals He's selected for such treatment. Regarding my view, it sounds as if you're suggesting that having any judgment at all is cruel on God's part?

A:Hold on here. You do agree with me that when the saved are in Heaven during the Millennium, the lost are dead on Earth, yes? Dead, no pain, not knowing anything, right?

Yet, you have them, at some future time, coming back to life and suffering untold mental anguish. Who is able to bring the dead back to life, enabling them to suffer such mental anguish? Only God. I trust you do not disagree.

Whether the suffering is imposed or innate, the fact is that God gives the lost the ability to experience it.

God could just as easily judge them while they are dead.


GC 541-543 points out the judgment is for the good of the wicked. This implies they must be a part of it (i.e. conscious).

Quote:
In fact, that's near the top of the to-do list during the Millennium. Once the universe has seen the justice of God's judgment, what's the point of bringing them back? Just so they could suffer the anguish of knowing what they have lost, then die?


No, not just for this (or for this at all). The question as to why God resurrects the wicked is a good question, worthy of a topic of its own. If you'd like to start one, I'll participate. I don't think a brief answer here does the question justice.

Quote:
I'm not suggesting God acts cruelly.


Suggesting He will set people on fire for hours or days is certainly doing so.

Quote:
I just try to figure out what He's going to do, and trust that He is good. Unlike Lucifer and Eve, I do not want to give myself the job of judging whether or not God is right. That job has a terrible retirement package.


God invites us to reason together. He has put Himself on judgment. He invites us to examine Him, and lays out His case for us to examine. This is from Maxwell. I don't think one could rightly claim to be favorably inclined towards Maxwell's ideas and reject this one. I understand one would not need to agree with everything Maxwell said (I don't either) but I don't think one could disagree on this point and still claim to view his ideas favorably, as this idea is the key idea upon which his entire theology revolves.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Tom] #119374
09/17/09 03:26 PM
09/17/09 03:26 PM
asygo  Offline
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I'll respond to the other points later...

Originally Posted By: Tom
Setting someone on fire is more cruel.

More cruel than living in conscious separation from God? I disagree. I'd prefer to be set on fire than to live apart from God.

Either fire is worse than I think, or separation from God is worse than you think. But I'm thinking separation from God is very, very bad.

What if you were in the place of the martyrs? If you had to choose between denying God and being set on fire, you would prefer to avoid the fire? I hope not. Be thou faithful unto death...

Originally Posted By: Tom
God invites us to reason together. He has put Himself on judgment. He invites us to examine Him, and lays out His case for us to examine.

And this is one of AGM's points that I think is very important. What I reject is the idea that in the few years on earth you have studied the subject, you can feel qualified to make a verdict on God's actions (or inactions) when God has allotted 1000 years in heaven to do it. Furthermore, you seem confident that you have all the relevant evidence available to you now.

Based on your study, you have determined that God will not burn anyone, despite all the texts about burning, fire, stubble, fervent heat, etc. In contrast, I'll just take whatever God sees fit to give, and I'll take advantage of the 1000 years to examine all the evidence. In the meantime, I'll trust that God knows what He's doing.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: asygo] #119390
09/17/09 09:29 PM
09/17/09 09:29 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Arnold, you don't look to be speaking of the same thing I am. I am speaking of committing cruel acts. I am asserting that God does not do cruel things. I am asserting that setting someone on fire for hours or days at a time is cruel.

Quote:
Based on your study, you have determined that God will not burn anyone, despite all the texts about burning, fire, stubble, fervent heat, etc. In contrast, I'll just take whatever God sees fit to give, and I'll take advantage of the 1000 years to examine all the evidence. In the meantime, I'll trust that God knows what He's doing.


It's really not hard at all to come to the conclusion that God won't set anyone on fire to suffering excruciating pain for many hours or days. It's absolutely incredulous to me that one who knows God, and believes he is like Jesus Christ, could seriously consider this is an option. Just the concept that cruelty is Satanic should be enough to immediately reject such an idea.

Just consider what God would have to do to set one on fire and keep them on fire so they could suffer. First of all, a person being set on fire would die in a few seconds. So God would have to act supernaturally to prevent the person from dying. Secondly, fire consumes matter. So God would have to do something supernatural to keep the fire from consuming a person, so the fire would burn the person, but not consume the person, its only purpose being, apparently, to cause the person excruciating pain.

In all the history of man, there was never a torture even a fraction as cruel as the one you are suggesting. I simply cannot understand how a person who believes in Christ could possibly entertain the notion for more than a few milleseconds that God might do something like this. Is this is what God is like?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Tom] #119405
09/18/09 07:40 AM
09/18/09 07:40 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
What do you think of the following passage(s) describing a portion of those final moments of sin?

(Note that I have linked the Bible verses to Bible Gateway for convenience, but the references were in the original document as-is.)

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations; and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground. I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee." "I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." [ Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19.] {GC88 672.1}
"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked he shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." [ Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; 11:6 (MARGIN).] Fire comes down from God out of Heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. [ Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10.] The earth's surface seems one molten mass,--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men,--
673
"The day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." [Isaiah 34:8; Proverbs 11:31.] {GC88 672.2}
The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. [Isaiah 34:8; Proverbs 11:31.] They "shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts."[Malachi 4:1.] Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch,--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and Heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC88 673.1}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Green Cochoa] #119407
09/18/09 11:17 AM
09/18/09 11:17 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Here's a parallel passage:

Quote:
Then the end will come. God will vindicate His law and deliver His people. Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Mal. 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; . . . I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Then "the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be;" "they shall be as though they had not been." Ezek. 28:6-19; Ps. 37:10; Obadiah 16.

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 763,764)


We can see that the same event is being discussed; even the same Scriptures are quotes. We note that she points out that the destruction of the wicked is NOT due to an imposed act of power on the part of God, but is the result of their own choice. 9 times in a row she makes the point that the destruction of the wicked is due to their own choice. They so ruin their characters that the mere presence of God is a consuming fire to them.

Principles of the judgment are also explained in GC 541-543. She points out that in the judgment of the wicked that the same principles of kindness, love and mercy which God has been using to operate His government are being used, that the judgment of the wicked is for their own good. She points out that the exclusion of the wicked is voluntary with themselves.

Also, apart from these quotes simply a little thought should be sufficient to reject the idea that God will set people on fire for hours or days at a time. God simply isn't like that. This should be clear to anyone who knows Christ, whose purpose was to reveal the Father.

When Christ was urged to have fire come down from heaven to destroy the Samaritans, who were not open to receiving Him because He had "set His face to go to Jerusalem" He replied that they knew not what spirit they were of.

Quote:
It is no part of Christ's mission to compel men to receive Him. It is Satan, and men actuated by his spirit, that seek to compel the conscience. Under a pretense of zeal for righteousness, men who are confederate with evil angels bring suffering upon their fellow men, in order to convert them to their ideas of religion; but Christ is ever showing mercy, ever seeking to win by the revealing of His love. He can admit no rival in the soul, nor accept of partial service; but He desires only voluntary service, the willing surrender of the heart under the constraint of love. There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas. (DA 487)


God is disposed to save, not to destroy, even in judgment. It is not God's will that any be lost. The wicked are lost against the wishes of God. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves. They choose against heaven, because they want no part of it or of God, because their characters have been settled with principles that are contrary to the principles of God's kingdom.

But God is still God, and the principles of kindness, mercy and love rule. It would hardly be possible to say that God was using the principles of kindness (GC 541) in the judgment if He were setting people on fire and keeping them alive so they could suffer excruciating pain for many hours or many days.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Tom] #119409
09/18/09 11:50 AM
09/18/09 11:50 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Tom,

You said this:

Originally Posted By: Tom
We can see that the same event is being discussed; even the same Scriptures are quotes. We note that she points out that the destruction of the wicked is NOT due to an imposed act of power on the part of God, but is the result of their own choice. 9 times in a row she makes the point that the destruction of the wicked is due to their own choice. They so ruin their characters that the mere presence of God is a consuming fire to them.


Allow me to make several points:

1) You have altered her meaning. She is very clear what KIND of power God exerts. It is not arbitrary. But she does NOT indicate that this is "NOT due to an imposed act of power on the part of God". Where do you get this idea? Mrs. White never says God has not used His power in this situation. Far from it. She merely qualifies the sort of power that it is, and gives the reason for God's exercise of this power.

2) Yes, the wicked have made their choice against God. By choosing to rebel against His law, they have fitted themselves for destruction. The responsibility for their choice is on their own heads. But their just reward is executed by God Himself. Note that Mrs. White says "Fire comes down from God out of Heaven." She does not say "the wicked light themselves on fire."

3) Yes, God's presence is a consuming fire--always, and not just to them. His presence and glory cannot co-exist with sin. Any sin must be consumed in His presence, and if a sinner has not first cleansed himself before seeing God, he must be consumed along with his sin.

Originally Posted By: Tom
They choose against heaven, because they want no part of it or of God, because their characters have been settled with principles that are contrary to the principles of God's kingdom.


I think this shifts a little bit away from the pure truth. Reason and logic can almost be persuaded to agree with it, except for a few clarifying statements.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Desires for goodness and holiness are right as far as they go; but if you stop here, they will avail nothing. Many will be lost while hoping and desiring to be Christians. They do not come to the point of yielding the will to God. They do not now choose to be Christians. {SC 47.2}

Desires for goodness and true holiness are right so far as they go; but if you stop here, they will avail nothing. Good purposes are right, but will prove of no avail unless resolutely carried out. Many will be lost while hoping and desiring to be Christians; but they made no earnest effort, therefore they will be weighed in the balances and found wanting. The will must be exercised in the right direction. I will be a wholehearted Christian. I will know the length and breadth, the height and depth, of perfect love. Listen to the words of Jesus: "Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled." Ample provisions are made by Christ to satisfy the soul that hungers and thirsts for righteousness. {2T 265.2}


In other words, not all will have chosen "against heaven, because they want no part of it or of God."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Green Cochoa] #119413
09/18/09 02:01 PM
09/18/09 02:01 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Tom, you quoted - "The glory of Him who is love will destroy them." Then you wrote, "They so ruin their characters that the mere presence of God is a consuming fire to them." In other words, if God kept His distance, if He continued to shield them from the presence of His glorious light - they would not suffer and die. Also, the consuming fire that will destroy the rubble of earth is the same fire that will cause the wicked to suffer and die. Using your definition, their punishment will be arbitrary, that is, it is not sin or the results of sinning that will cause them to suffer and die. The unshielded presence of God will be necessary for the wicked to suffer and die; otherwise, it wouldn't happen.

Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Mountain Man] #119414
09/18/09 02:05 PM
09/18/09 02:05 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Tom, you wrote, "She points out that the exclusion of the wicked is voluntary with themselves." But if they could rid heaven of its inhabitants, and have it to themselves, they would. They would march in and mow them down taking heaven by force. Their great desire is to live - not to die.

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