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Re: The Pillars of Faith in Adventism [Re: Mountain Man] #120524
10/15/09 10:05 AM
10/15/09 10:05 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
I think Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Episcopal, Adventist etc each bring something of value to the body of Christ which is necessary for it to function as intended. I do not think people will be translated irrespective of the Truth, but I do think that the Truth upon which translation hinges is Jesus Christ Himself, rather than any specific understanding of theology. Remember that those who toil all day at the field will recieve the same pay as those who only came to work for the last hour in Jesus parable.

Salvation is salvation etc. Being resurrected is not different from being translated in any other sense than that resurrection requires the individual to have tasted death first.
I agree that having the seal of God is essential and so is avoiding the mark of the beast. It is however likely that we disagree on what this seal and this mark are, from our previous conversations on the subject.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: The Pillars of Faith in Adventism [Re: vastergotland] #120525
10/15/09 10:58 AM
10/15/09 10:58 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
http://www.atoday.com/files/Fall%202009%20Feature.pdf
Quote:
Jesus talks about the need for change in his story of the wineskins:
“No one tears a patch from a new garment and sews it on an old
one. If he does, he will have torn the new garment, and the patch
from the new will not match the old. And no one pours new wine
into old wineskins. If he does, the new wine will burst the skins, the
wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, new wine
must be poured into new wineskins” (Luke 5:36-38, NIV).
Howard Synder comments on this passage: “Jesus distinguishes
here between something essential and primary (the wine)
and something secondary but also necessary and useful (the
wineskins). Wineskins would be superfuous without the wine
they were meant to hold.”12
But what do you do when the
wineskins become old and people hang on to them? Church
structure, organization, and policies are for the sake of the gospel,
not the other way around. Te gospel is divine; structure is
human. “Wineskins result when the divine gospel touches human
culture.”13
When Jesus told us that new wine must always be put into new
wineskins, he was telling us that God is always a God of newness.
While the gospel—the good news that Jesus died for our sins and
ofers us salvation absolutely free—never changes, the form that
the gospel takes in presenting itself to the world must constantly
be changing. For the gospel to be relevant and able to reach
all segments of society, the wineskin (organization, methods,
policies) must be constantly changing so that it continues to be
relevant to the society it is trying to reach.
Te church is in crisis in North America, and few seem to
really care. Snyder again states the problem well: “Every age
knows the temptation to forget that the gospel is ever new. We
try to contain the new wine of the gospel in old wineskins—
outmoded traditions, obsolete philosophies, creaking institutions,
old habits. But with time the old wineskins begin to bind the
gospel. Ten they must burst, and the power of the gospel pours
forth once more. Many times this has happened in the history
of the church. Human nature wants to conserve, but the divine
nature is to renew. It seems almost a law that things initially
created to aid the gospel eventually become obstacles—old
wineskins. Ten God has to destroy or abandon them so that the
gospel wine can renew man’s world once again.”14


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: The Pillars of Faith in Adventism [Re: vastergotland] #120530
10/15/09 03:34 PM
10/15/09 03:34 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Thomas, it sounds like you believe the body of Christ includes everyone irrespective of what they believe. I'm curious, do you include non-Christian beliefs? If not, what criteria do you use to determine who is part of the body of Christ and who is not? A related question is - What is the difference between the seal of God and the mark of the beast? Do you agree with the following insights:

The sign, or seal, of God is revealed in the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath, the Lord's memorial of creation. . . . The mark of the beast is the opposite of this--the observance of the first day of the week.--8T 117 (1904).

Sundaykeeping is not yet the mark of the beast, and will not be until the decree goes forth causing men to worship this idol sabbath. The time will come when this day will be the test, but that time has not come yet. 7BC 977 (1899).

While the observance of the false sabbath in compliance with the law of the state, contrary to the fourth commandment, will be an avowal of allegiance to a power that is in opposition to God, the keeping of the true Sabbath, in obedience to God's law, is an evidence of loyalty to the Creator. While one class, by accepting the sign of submission to earthly powers, receive the mark of the beast, the other, choosing the token of allegiance to divine authority, receive the seal of God.--GC 605 (1911).

Re: The Pillars of Faith in Adventism [Re: Mountain Man] #120531
10/15/09 03:52 PM
10/15/09 03:52 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
"While the gospel — the good news that Jesus died for our sins and offers us salvation absolutely free — never changes, the form that the gospel takes in presenting itself to the world must constantly be changing."

I disagree with this summary of the gospel. The good news is - Jesus earned the right on the cross to pardon the penitent and to empower them to cease sinning and to mature daily in the fruits of the Spirit.

Re: The Pillars of Faith in Adventism [Re: Mountain Man] #120535
10/15/09 06:08 PM
10/15/09 06:08 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Thomas, it sounds like you believe the body of Christ includes everyone irrespective of what they believe. I'm curious, do you include non-Christian beliefs? If not, what criteria do you use to determine who is part of the body of Christ and who is not? A related question is - What is the difference between the seal of God and the mark of the beast? Do you agree with the following insights:
No, I dont go that far. Paul wrote:

9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

This does not include any understandings on state of the dead or sanctuaries or sabbath, even though it certainly does not exclude it either.
Quote:

The sign, or seal, of God is revealed in the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath, the Lord's memorial of creation. . . . The mark of the beast is the opposite of this--the observance of the first day of the week.--8T 117 (1904).

Sundaykeeping is not yet the mark of the beast, and will not be until the decree goes forth causing men to worship this idol sabbath. The time will come when this day will be the test, but that time has not come yet. 7BC 977 (1899).

While the observance of the false sabbath in compliance with the law of the state, contrary to the fourth commandment, will be an avowal of allegiance to a power that is in opposition to God, the keeping of the true Sabbath, in obedience to God's law, is an evidence of loyalty to the Creator. While one class, by accepting the sign of submission to earthly powers, receive the mark of the beast, the other, choosing the token of allegiance to divine authority, receive the seal of God.--GC 605 (1911).
To believe this would require that I accept this doctrine as true despite not being able to show so from the scripture. I fail to see that it would hold up were you to support your point without reference to Ellens writings.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: The Pillars of Faith in Adventism [Re: Mountain Man] #120536
10/15/09 06:35 PM
10/15/09 06:35 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
"While the gospel — the good news that Jesus died for our sins and offers us salvation absolutely free — never changes, the form that the gospel takes in presenting itself to the world must constantly be changing."

I disagree with this summary of the gospel. The good news is - Jesus earned the right on the cross to pardon the penitent and to empower them to cease sinning and to mature daily in the fruits of the Spirit.

I can take "Jesus died for our sins and offers us salvation absolutely free" as a good summary, if we agree that salvation includes salvation from spiritual bondage (sin) as well as from physical bondage (death).


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: The Pillars of Faith in Adventism [Re: vastergotland] #120537
10/15/09 06:38 PM
10/15/09 06:38 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: västergötland
I fail to see that it would hold up were you to support your point without reference to Ellens writings.

But it could be shown from Scripture that the seal of God is His character. We might be better off focusing on that. And it would emphasize the fact that beyond information, we need transformation.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: The Pillars of Faith in Adventism [Re: asygo] #120539
10/15/09 06:47 PM
10/15/09 06:47 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: västergötland
I fail to see that it would hold up were you to support your point without reference to Ellens writings.

But it could be shown from Scripture that the seal of God is His character. We might be better off focusing on that. And it would emphasize the fact that beyond information, we need transformation.
Yes, though it is perhaps an even better case that the seal of God is the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the life of a believer.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: The Pillars of Faith in Adventism [Re: vastergotland] #120540
10/15/09 07:02 PM
10/15/09 07:02 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: västergötland
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: västergötland
I fail to see that it would hold up were you to support your point without reference to Ellens writings.

But it could be shown from Scripture that the seal of God is His character. We might be better off focusing on that. And it would emphasize the fact that beyond information, we need transformation.
Yes, though it is perhaps an even better case that the seal of God is the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the life of a believer.

I can go for that, too. I see them as equivalent.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: The Pillars of Faith in Adventism [Re: asygo] #120541
10/15/09 07:22 PM
10/15/09 07:22 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Which then suggests the mark of the beast is unopposed ministry by the devil in the life of the unbeliever.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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