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Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Tom] #123304
02/10/10 03:46 AM
02/10/10 03:46 AM
RLH  Offline
Active Member 2010
Posting New Member
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 16
North Carolina, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
This seems clear to me. The destiny of the wicked is fixed "by their own choice." Their exclusion from heaven is "voluntary with themselves." Not "would be" but "is."


She used the word "would" not "is". If you could be more succinct with your point, it would be very helpful. I could post half of the Great Controversy too, but I know that nobody would read it.

Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Tom] #123305
02/10/10 03:51 AM
02/10/10 03:51 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: Richard
This doesn't say Jesus died of heart failure. It simply says that the sense of sin and the Father's wrath, is what made the cup so bitter, and broke his heart. It doesn't say that's what killed him.


Read in context, it seems clear that this is what caused Christ's death. In the chapter on Gethsemane we see something similar:

Quote:
The guilt of fallen humanity He must bear. Upon Him who knew no sin must be laid the iniquity of us all. So dreadful does sin appear to Him, so great is the weight of guilt which He must bear, that He is tempted to fear it will shut Him out forever from His Father's love. Feeling how terrible is the wrath of God against transgression, He exclaims, "My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death." {DA 685.2}


If not for God's sending an angel to strengthen Christ, He would have died in Gethsemane.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Tom] #123306
02/10/10 03:57 AM
02/10/10 03:57 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: RLH
T:This seems clear to me. The destiny of the wicked is fixed "by their own choice." Their exclusion from heaven is "voluntary with themselves." Not "would be" but "is."

R:She used the word "would" not "is".


???

Quote:
Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.


Quote:
If you could be more succinct with your point, it would be very helpful. I could post half of the Great Controversy too, but I know that nobody would read it.


When I was succinct, you claimed I was taking the quote out of context. So I provided the context. It wasn't taken out of context.

Here's an explanation. This chapter of "The Great Controversy" is dealing with the deception of the immortality of the soul. She starts out talking about the idea that the wicked will be burned for eternity, and explains what a terrible idea this is, that setting people on fire forever would be "unceasing tortures" and so forth. She says that many reject God because of this teaching, and that some react against it by going to the other extreme, teaching that none will be lost in the final judgment. She's explaining why this teaching is wrong in GC 541-543.

She says that God would make the lost happy if He could, but it's not possible to do so because they have fixed their characters in such a way that God's presence is to them a consuming fire. She explains that heaven would be a place of torture to them, and their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Tom] #123307
02/10/10 03:59 AM
02/10/10 03:59 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I have several times brought up the fact that Tom's favorite quotes on the judgment were taken out of context, but regardless, those quotes keep appearing here.


GC 541-543 is taken out of context? Just what do you think this is talking about if not the judgment?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Tom] #123308
02/10/10 04:01 AM
02/10/10 04:01 AM
RLH  Offline
Active Member 2010
Posting New Member
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 16
North Carolina, USA
Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc
This doesn't really work if we consider other places where the prophet speaks about this subject.


It works just fine pnatt. I'm not going to argue with you pnattmbc. It's a waste of precious time. I hope you get over your confusion.

Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Tom] #123310
02/10/10 05:23 AM
02/10/10 05:23 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Tom
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I have several times brought up the fact that Tom's favorite quotes on the judgment were taken out of context, but regardless, those quotes keep appearing here.


GC 541-543 is taken out of context? Just what do you think this is talking about if not the judgment?
Of course, Tom, you are welcome to change your favorite quotes whenever you like. smile

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Green Cochoa] #123327
02/12/10 04:50 AM
02/12/10 04:50 AM
RLH  Offline
Active Member 2010
Posting New Member
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 16
North Carolina, USA
I don't know GC, he sure does like that quote. Whether it applies or not.

Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: RLH] #123329
02/12/10 05:50 AM
02/12/10 05:50 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Here's the quote:

Quote:
The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." God
executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. He would make them happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character. He surrounds them with the tokens of His love, He grants them a knowledge of His law, and follows them with the offers of His mercy; but they despise His love, make void His law, and reject His mercy. While constantly receiving His gifts, they dishonor the Giver; they hate God because they know that He abhors their sins. The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will? {GC 541.4}

Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests? {GC 542.1}

Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. {GC 542.2}


Neither of you guys thinks this is dealing with the final judgment? Really? If not, what do you think this is talking about?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: RLH] #123331
02/12/10 03:18 PM
02/12/10 03:18 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
Originally Posted By: RLH
I don't know GC, he sure does like that quote. Whether it applies or not.

Is there something wrong with him liking this quote?
Does it apply towards the judgment?

Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: kland] #123333
02/12/10 05:22 PM
02/12/10 05:22 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
This is a great quote. It had a profound impact on me. Just before what's quoted it says:

Quote:
God does not force the will or judgment of any. He takes no pleasure in a slavish obedience. He desires that the creatures of His hands shall love Him because He is worthy of love. He would have them obey Him because they have an intelligent appreciation of His wisdom, justice, and benevolence. And all who have a just conception of these qualities will love Him because they are drawn toward Him in admiration of His attributes. {GC 541.3}


I first read this many years ago, and it thrilled me to think that God was like this.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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