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Re: Why did God command capital punishment? [Re: Mountain Man] #123399
02/18/10 09:46 PM
02/18/10 09:46 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: kland
I took that to mean that if they specifically defined what evolution is, like the universities did, then it could easily be refuted - at least in regards to not being subjected to the scientific method. If you have a moving definition, it is non refutable since it can be changed to fit the present position and needs of argument.


That reminds me of a discussion I had. I was arguing that Lucifer had sinned in heaven, and God offered him forgiveness for his sins, without Christ having had to die. This was an argument to show that Christ's death was not necessary in order to enable God to be legally able to pardon, since God was willing to pardon Lucifer without Christ's having to die. I wrote:

Quote:
You ask for me to show you one quote where she labels it as sin. I don't see how this would make any difference. I've already shown you quotes which say the exact opposite of what you say, and it has no impact on your thinking.

For example, I presented this quote:

The fall of our first parents, with all the woe that has resulted, he charges upon the Creator, leading men to look upon God as the author of sin, and suffering, and death. (DA 24)

to show you were wrong to consider God to be the author of sin, and you simply responded that EGW had a different idea of "author of sin" than you did.

In this current dialog, you have a different idea of what "repentance" and "pardon" means. Why wouldn't you have a different idea of what "sin" means?


This person had been asking for me for a specific quote saying that Lucifer had sinned, not accepting as evidence that fact that God could hardly have offered him pardon for sin if he had not sinned. Also this person had been saying that the SOP was using the words "repentance" and "pardon" in a different sense. Well, another party actually found a quote saying that Lucifer had sinned, which led to this remark:

Quote:
The SOP quote you are referring to employs the word “sin” in a different sense.


which caused my prophesy to come true.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command capital punishment? [Re: kland] #123400
02/18/10 10:00 PM
02/18/10 10:00 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: kland
Tom,

I have spoken before about talking to those who believe in evolution. There was one I was talking to who was saying I was rejecting science since I didn't believe in evolution since evolution was a fact because it happens every day. I asked what their definition of evolution was since it seemed to be different than what was defined on some university web sites: All life descended from a common ancestor. They went on page after page talking about all kinds of stuff. However, they would never specifically define what evolution is. This being so that it can mean change of allele frequencies, it could mean change of color, it could mean selection of existing information, or it could mean man from molecules. It just depended upon the circumstances at the time as to what the best definition would be for their particular argument at the time. If you argue that man to molecules cannot be proven, they argue that moths are changing color all the time. If you argue that changing allele frequencies do not increase information, they argue that given enough time, allele frequencies will increase information.

When I questioned why they couldn't give me a concise definition of what evolution was, they launched into how evolution was much more complex and couldn't really be defined that way. Evolution, which randomly created all life, is so complex that it can't be defined?

I took that to mean that if they specifically defined what evolution is, like the universities did, then it could easily be refuted - at least in regards to not being subjected to the scientific method. If you have a moving definition, it is non refutable since it can be changed to fit the present position and needs of argument.

Do you think a refusal to concisely and specifically distinguish the difference between "murder" and "killing" and between "variableness" and "variety" is relevant to the evolutionist I was speaking to?

kland,

AS A MODERATOR: This post is off topic. Please stick to the topic.

The irony is that this type of "changing the topic" is a tactic frequently used by those who wish to avoid a clear answer--which you are positing has been done here.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Why did God command capital punishment? [Re: Green Cochoa] #123401
02/18/10 10:06 PM
02/18/10 10:06 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Tom,

AS A MODERATOR: You also need to stick to the topic. Let us not stray to evolution, or pardon, or the origin of sin in this thread. This topic is for discussion of "Why did God command capital punishment?"

****************************** MM's questions of "Did God command Moses to stone the Sabbath-breaker?" etc. come to mind.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Last edited by Daryl F; 02/26/10 09:38 PM. Reason: Inappropriate content removed.

We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Why did God command capital punishment? [Re: Tom] #123402
02/18/10 10:18 PM
02/18/10 10:18 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Tom
Is this the post you had in mind, where you explained the difference between killing and murder? Or was it a different one?


Quote:
Thank you, kland, for helping to bring us back into the more central focus of this topic.

As you have correctly stated, the Bible says "Thou shalt not murder." This command is stated twice--once in Exodus, and once in Deuteronomy--as an express command of God.

The Bible also has the following express commands from God:

And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. (Leviticus 20:16)

Deuteronomy
13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
13:4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
13:5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
13:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. (Deuteronomy 13:9)

---------------------------

Several points can be noted from these scriptures.

1. There is a time to kill (or, at least there was).
2. God commanded capital punishment as a means of keeping the people pure, lest they be led astray by the wicked among them.
3. The Hebrew word here is different from the word used in "Thou shalt not murder."

Thus, a distinction is made between improper and proper. Murder is never acceptable, but always sinful. Killing was acceptable as an act of war and as a means of maintaining the purity of the people by removing the wicked (capital punishment--but the focus was more on the preservation of the righteous). Killing in either of these senses was a duty, not a liberty. Soldiers had a duty to protect and serve their country. Citizens had a duty to uphold the laws of their theocracy. These ordinances were given by God in order to weed out the bad apples before they could spoil the barrel.

We do the same today. We put our worst criminals to death. If we did not, they would but be a menace to others and to themselves. Society is better off without them. Those who are especially recalcitrant, particularly to God's authority, are better off meeting an early demise than to have the greater opportunity to bring guilt upon themselves which must be met in the Judgment. Jesus also spoke along these lines when referring to some which would be better off having a millstone hung around their necks and being cast into the sea.

Murder is always killing. But killing is not always murder. Just like swans are always birds, but birds are not always swans. In this latter example, note that swans are unclean, but quail, chickens, and doves are clean. It behooves us, therefore, to keep a careful distinction between even similar things--for God also distinguishes them and puts great importance into the distinction (sacred versus common fire, as another example).

As for your rumination on the distinction between thoughts and acts, did not Jesus tell us that sinful thoughts carry a similar guilt to bodily acts? Jesus gave two separate examples of this: hatred -> murder; and lust -> adultery.

However, acts of faith are physical acts. Abraham put his son upon the altar, as opposed to merely consenting in his mind to such an act. This act on his part put him in the "hall of faith," and was counted unto him for righteousness.

Tom,

I already told you the post I had in mind. My refusal to answer a question a second or third time, when I had answered very clearly once already, now makes both you and kland try to posit that I am "avoiding a clear answer?" Sigh. As you wish. My answer was in the post I indicated. However, I also predicted that you would not be able to comprehend it on account of your misinterpretations regarding the difference between thoughts and acts and their relationship. If you cannot grasp the concept, it does not follow that I have not clearly explained. The Bible is clear. I was clear. Here is the quote from that post:

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
kland, This is why I was taking such pains to define the relationship between willful thoughts and acts. If you do not accept that a thought can be right or wrong, or that it would constitute an act, one which can be judged as right or wrong, then you will not see any difference between murder and killing.

The difference is made clear in the Bible: motive. What is your reason for killing? That makes all the difference. If one reads carefully regarding the system of "avenging" the death of a kinsman, the duty fell upon the nearest male kin to the one who was killed (note, even accidental deaths were grounds for avenging--thus murder is not required here). The one who executed the duty, however, was required to do so without hate.


If I hate and I kill, it is murder. If I kill in obedience to the law and without hate, it is but killing. It is not murder.

Can I say it more clearly than that?

If you feel that hate is not an "act" and therefore not "disobedience," or not a problem--if you view it as merely an acceptable natural emotion and/or a not-yet-sin portion of "temptation," then you will never understand the difference between "murder" and "killing."

Courts of the world understand the difference to a case where there is "hate" and "premeditation" versus where there isn't--that's why they spend so much time to lay out the "motive" for the case. God also recognizes the same distinctions. Should this surprise us?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Why did God command capital punishment? [Re: Mountain Man] #123403
02/18/10 10:25 PM
02/18/10 10:25 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
1. Do you believe Jesus used the OT to explain the final judgment? If so, which scriptures did He use?


I haven't said anything about this. Any Scripture He would have quoted would have been the OT, of course. I'd have to think to answer this question, and don't see the point, so I'll save my brain cells for the time being. Why are you asking this?

Quote:
2. Do you believe Jesus added insights about the final judgment that are not recorded in the OT? If so, please name them.


Same answer.

Quote:
3. Do you believe Jesus was hoping the Father would truly, actually pardon the sinners who crucified Him? If so, do you think they will be in heaven?


He was expressing His personal desire that their sin against Him not be held against them. The SOP says the whole world was taken in by that prayer, but unless we each individually repent, we will perish.

I've explained this in detail already.

Quote:
4. Do you believe the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer Moses stoned to death will be in heaven? If not, why not?


I've answered this.

Quote:
5. Do you believe Jesus would have pardoned the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer had He been here in person?


I believe He would have treated them as He taught the woman caught in adultery. You need to be more precise in regards to what you're talking about in regards to pardon for me to answer your question. As I explained, there are two aspects to pardon. Which one are you talking about?

Quote:
6. Do you believe Jesus misrepresented the Father in the OT? If not, do you believe commanding Moses to kill the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer was representative of the Father?


God was constrained in the OT, because of the hardness of hearts of the people. He was not able to reveal Himself as He could, and did, through Christ.

Quote:
7. Do you believe Jesus misrepresented the Father when He told the Jews to stone the adulteress to death? If not, do you think stoning sinners to death is representative of the Father?


God sent His Son for the specific purpose of revealing Himself, because the world was dark in misapprehension of God's character. This is despite the fact that the OT existed. Unbelief and the traditions of man, caused misunderstandings. This wasn't a problem of Christ, but of the people.

If we wish to see Christ's unfettered representation of God, we have but to look to Jesus Christ Himself.

As I've repeatedly said, this methodology of trying to figure things out by looking chiefly, or only, at the OT is flawed, I believe. I believe the proper methodology would be to first form a theology of God's character, based on Christ's revelation while here in the flesh, and have that as a foundation before considering the OT accounts.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command capital punishment? [Re: Tom] #123405
02/18/10 10:33 PM
02/18/10 10:33 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Tom,

Do you see any differences between the sins of the woman caught in adultery and that of the Sabbath-breaker who was stoned?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Why did God command capital punishment? [Re: Tom] #123411
02/19/10 12:11 AM
02/19/10 12:11 AM
S
StewartC  Offline
Active Member 2011
Posting New Member
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 28
Arizona , USA
I agree Tom. Perhaps the divorce laws were not the ONLY laws given to the people because of the hardness of their hearts.

Re: Why did God command capital punishment? [Re: StewartC] #123414
02/19/10 12:28 AM
02/19/10 12:28 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: StewartC
I agree Tom. Perhaps the divorce laws were not the ONLY laws given to the people because of the hardness of their hearts.

I also agree with this. For example, the law of tithing. That is given because of the hardness of our hearts.

God Himself has said He doesn't need our offerings (Ps. 50:8-23). Therefore, He doesn't need our tithes. Why does He ask us to pay tithe? So that our hearts will be softened and made less selfish as we learn to share and to recognize that God owns all of our substance, and not we ourselves.

However, we must be careful about judging God's laws. If we say "such and such law was given only for the hardness of their hearts," we appear to say that "I don't need to follow that law," perhaps since my heart is not so hard. Or, on the other hand, we imply that it was a bad law. A bad law would imply that God was wrong to make it or to give it.

I would propose two things: 1) our hearts are still hard; and 2) God's laws are all good.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Why did God command capital punishment? [Re: Green Cochoa] #123415
02/19/10 02:31 AM
02/19/10 02:31 AM
S
StewartC  Offline
Active Member 2011
Posting New Member
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 28
Arizona , USA
I can basically accept your comments on tithe payments.
In fact the whole field of Divine worship is all for our good.
I do not believe that God is an attention-seeker --not for a moment -- but for our sakes He frequently says "look to Me".


Re: Why did God command capital punishment? [Re: StewartC] #123418
02/19/10 03:53 AM
02/19/10 03:53 AM
G
gordonb1  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Veteran Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec

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