I recall the last analogy you used "fell apart" when you eventually realized it contradicted your beliefs, your previous ones did not go well, and so realize analogies are not your strong point. Therefore, I try to remember and don't use them with you.

Why did you think the abortion doctor was an analogy? It is the real deal. If you don't believe me, search for it in the news. It's been frequently in the news in the states.

The reason you give for not answering has "fallen apart". Now that you realize it's not an analogy, can you answer the questions? Otherwise, according to what I understand you to have said previously, we can only conclude that you see nothing wrong with what the killer did nor the abortion doctor did. Unless you can shed more light on your beliefs.

Thank you for the apology. By question I assume you mean the one I asked. I don't see where you asked a question. Here's the question - "Did Jesus ever command someone to kill a sinner when in reality they were like the woman and deserving of forgiveness?"

My answer remains unchanged - "I don't think so." King David is a case in point. According to the law he deserved to die. Instead, Jesus forgave him. True, others died as punishment for his sins. The reverse is also true, that is, every time Jesus commanded someone to kill a sinner it was because they were unlike the woman and undeserving of forgiveness. Do you see what I mean?

Yes, I understand your point. However, do you understand my question? Do you agree Jesus said, “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her”? I’m not asking you to explain what you think He meant; I’m simply asking if you believe He said those words? Or, do you suspect He was misquoted? Also, do you think the rulers thought themselves sinless and worthy to cast the first stone at the woman? If so, what do you think motivated them to abandon their plan and sneak away?


True, it is the goodness of God that leads some sinners to repent and to love and obey Him. And it is also true that Jesus made pardon available; however, I disagree with those who say He in reality pardoned us (wrote “pardon” next to all of our sins) before we repented and asked Him to. My point is Jesus forgave the woman after she repented.


Yes, what Jesus said to the woman was beautiful, but not more beautiful than what Jesus said to King David when he sinned. Jesus was just as loving and beautiful in the OT as He was in the NT. Also, in a different sense, what Jesus commanded Moses to do (kill sinners) was beautiful. “Infinite justice” is a beautiful trait of God’s character. By the way, you didn’t respond to the rest of my post above. I would appreciate it if you would respond to it. Thank you.


Yes, I see similarities; however, teaching a wayward son how to kill animals in a humane manner (something you believe is not a sin) is more dissimilar than similar to Jesus commanding Moses to kill sinners (something you believe is a sin). Do you see what I mean?


You didn’t answer my question. Also, by the way, I agree there is nothing we can do to deserve pardon and salvation. However, when we comply with the conditions of pardon and salvation I believe the Bible makes it clear we are “worthy”. I take it you disagree? If so, how do you interpret the “worthy” passages I posted earlier?


Amen! Jesus chose not to destroy the Samaritans. In the OT there were times when Jesus chose not to destroy sinners and cities. Jesus is the same Lord and Savior in the OT that He is in the NT. However, there were times when circumstances forced Jesus to destroy sinners and cities. For example, Abraham pleaded with Jesus not to destroy S&G. In the end, though, Jesus chose to destroy S&G. He had no other choice. The same thing is true when circumstances forced Jesus to command Moses to kill sinners. My point above is Jesus never commanded someone to kill sinners when they met the conditions for pardon and salvation. The reverse is also true, that is, Jesus only commanded people to kill sinners when they were “worthy”. As it is written, “Thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.” Rev 16:6. Do you see what I mean?

There is no perfect analogy. Even Jesus' analogies were imperfect, if you wish to be critical. The Rich Man and Lazarus -- hell is eternal and burning as we speak; The Good Samaritan -- lacks mention of other classes and races of people; etc. Don't waste words over the definitions of "analogy" and "parable" or even "story." Jesus told the story of the Samaritan as if it were but an example, an analogy, when it had actually happened. We call it a "parable," perhaps because Jesus made an analogy from it, even though it was a true story.

As for any analogy of mine having "fallen apart," what are you talking about? Some analogies may fail to speak to every point, as the Rich Man and Lazarus, but this does not mean the analogy has "fallen apart," does it?


You are making an analogy from the story. You presented it as an analogy, in the same fashion as Jesus' presentation of the Samaritan. This is why I call it, rightly, an analogy. It might be a true story. I have not said it could not be. The truthfulness of it is not in question.

No, the reason has not "fallen apart." Unless you read my prior posts and understand what I have already said on this topic, I suppose you can choose to deny my true position by saying, as you do here, "we can only conclude that...." You will not be able to conclude that if you read my past answer to you on this.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

In what way could I present a real life situation so that it's not an analogy but a real life situation?

I responded by referring to Luke and asked:
So yes, Jesus didn't command someone to kill anyone, but why didn't He as this was a good reason for non-repenting and non-deserving sinners.

I'm saying Jesus didn't command anyone to kill anyone because it's not due to their worthiness of death or deserving of death, but because killing people is not His nature the same as it is not God's nature. Do you believe the 10 commandments are a reflection God's nature?

You're asking me if I think Jesus Christ said the words recorded in John 8? Why are you asking this?



Why would you think I think this?



Obviously not, right?



Why would you think I think something which is obviously false?



Actually it leads everybody to repentance.





Who says this? I no of no one who says this.



Or before, depending upon what aspect of forgiveness you are referring to. In the ordinary sense of the word, He forgave her before she repented. He said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more." This was before she repented. His goodness led her to repentance.



1.Jesus didn't exist as a human being until many years after David.

2.Jesus Christ, as a human being, revealed God's character such as had never been done before. Even angels marveled at the revelation. Until Jesus Christ's life, and death, God had not been understood in His fullness.

3.Nobody really understood the OT God until Jesus Christ came. Then He clearly revealed Him.

4.Your view of the OT God is very different from what Jesus Christ the human being revealed, it seems clear to me. This is a sort of schizophrenic view. Nice in the New, but not to nice in the Old, and not so nice again in the future.

5.The SOP suggests we spend a thoughtful hour each day meditating on the life of Christ. Why do you suppose she suggested this?



I think this is confusion.



It's an analogy. I'm not sure you've ever understood it. It's the best explanation I've seen. This is why I've not really seen much point in going on in this discussion. It's evidently something you're not able to perceive as I do. I've made suggestions that I think would be helpful, such as studying the life of Christ, and forming a theology of God's character based on that first, and then going back later on to the OT. You seem to have no interest in this, but I don't see how rehashing the same OT things over and over again is going to help, especially when you seem unable to understand what I'm trying to say.

I'm not blaming you for this. It could be that I'm just not able to find a way to communicate to you clearly enough at this time. Until that time, assuming I'm able to do so, why not give my suggestion a try?



Sure I did. Your question contained the premise that the woman was deserving of forgiveness. I answered your question by pointing out that she wasn't.



You said you agree that there is nothing we can do to deserve pardon and salvation, but that we can be "worthy." (in quotes). I'm not sure what "worthy" (in quotes) means.

I'd say we are not worthy, but Christ is worthy, and we be grace my receive from His goodness, mercy and love, as unworthy sinners.



I'd have to look.

I did a search on "worthy" on this page and the previous one, and couldn't find anything.

Ok, I went back a bit further and found them:



Here's one to consider:



I would interpret this as saying that God allowed them to have a privilege, and they were thankful for that privilege.

Here's another:



This looks to be saying that being counted worthy of [this] calling means allowing God to fulfill the good pleasure of His goodness, which I would take to mean revealing His character. So we are worthy of His calling if we allow Him to reveal His character in us.

Is this enough?

Was this ever answered? If so, what post?

I don't think the Samaritans were guilty of sinning against God in the same way S&G were guilty of sinning against God. Instead, I believe they were in a similar state as the Amorties when Jesus told Abraham she would not be "utterly destroyed" "until the fourth generation" "for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full". In the same way and for the same reasons Jesus did not give the disciples permission to call down fire upon the Samaritans.

In the case of S&G, however, it was Abraham who pleaded with Jesus not to "utterly destroy" her. But, as you know, Jesus was forced to destroy every man, woman, and child.

Did Jesus violate the law when He rained down fire upon S&G and killed everyone? No, of course not. What sayest the Lord? "God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. . . . Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2}