Ughhh...

"He doesn't make them vanish without first satisfying His thirst for vengeance." Mike

(Yes: I know. Bible words use the term vengeange. However It also says a sword will come out of His mouth. Also the saints can't all fit "Under the altar" when crying for vengeance {Especially if they are asleep, too})

Gotta read with both eyes fully "eye-salved".)

A torturing blood-thirsty God is what you want us to become "conformed to His image"?? Not me! Not that image...that sounds more like Ol' Scratch, to me.

If we are to "be like Him, as we will see Him as He is", than you may be in for a surprisingly shock on That Day!

Perhaps that's why one can see the tsunami as God's "thirst for blood"...hmmmm. Perhaps that is where the idea of death stopping sinners, killing stopping wars, force used to counter threats, etc. If we see God like that, sooner or later we become like that.

Just as the Protestant Swiss reformers soon took to burning heretics, and using the sword to kill their enemies.

You become, sooner or later,what you admire in God. Therefore a false concept could have eternal consequences.

1. The word natural. That’s one of the things we disagree about. You believe sinners die when they are exposed to the glory of God. I believe they die when God rains fire down upon them.

2. You believe sinners die when they are exposed to the absence of God. I believe they die when God rains fire down upon them.

3. Yes, of course, there are many wonderful things that Jesus’ death accomplishes. We cannot grasp all of them right now. In fact, even eternity isn’t long enough to totally get it. There comes a point when Jesus’ death motivates us to hate sin enough, to love Him enough, that we would rather sweat blood, even die, than to knowingly sin. Of course, this kind of intensity increases over time. But this insight should not overshadow the fact Jesus’ death was necessary to satisfy the death penalty for sin.

4. Yes, sin results in death. Why? Because God will rain fire down upon sinners. That’s the penalty for refusing to abide in Jesus, a penalty established by law and based on the holy, just and loving character of God. Or, according to your idea, death is the result of sin because God pulls the plug. Either way, they die because of something God does to them. And, yes, He does it because they are worthy, not because He is arbitrary or vengeful.

Yes, God has always possessed the legal right to forgive us. Why? Because Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, before we were created. The legal right to forgive us is based on the eternal death of Jesus. God cannot forgive us, apart from the death of Jesus, because without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.

Why? Because that’s the way God set it up. The death penalty is the wages of sin, and God is the One responsible for punishing and destroying sin and sinners in the lake of fire. Is God “subservient” to His own law? Yes, of course. However, I think a better way to express it is that God is true to Himself. Who gave God the legal right to forgive us? God did. The law is the foundation of His authority, and the standard for dealing with the sin problem.

5. The point? God is not “subservient” to the laws of nature. He has the right to alter the natural consequences of our choices. And this God does with wonderful regularity. But you seem to be implying the consequences of our choices always obey the laws of nature. But what about Daniel’s companions and the fiery furnace? They didn’t succumb to natural law.

6. Does the expression “satisfy His thirst for vengeance” sound unChristlike? Listen to what an angel said about it. “The soul that sinneth, it shall die an everlasting death, a death that will last forever, from which there will be no hope of a resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased.” EW 51 and 218 and 1SG 113. Sister White herself made a similar statement in 1SG 193. “Then the wrath of God will be appeased.” God’s desire to avenge the forsaken blood of Jesus is, indeed, a strange act, but an act nonetheless.

7. No, I disagree. It is not the very nature of sin to separate us from God, the source of life. Satan was more than willing to help God make amendments to His law, and to rule as His co-regent. But instead there was war in heaven and Satan was cast out, separated forcibly from the heaven, from the presence of God. The same thing happened to Adam and Eve when they sinned. They were cast out, driven forcibly from the Garden of Eden, from the presence of God. Sin forces God to separate sinners from Himself. Yes, sinners would soon grow tired of living around “straight-laced, narrow minded people”, if admitted into the New Earth, and would choose to relocate. But this is a far different scenario than your idea suggests, namely, that they would die.

8. Amen! The blood of Jesus should motivate us to hate sin and to love righteousness. To this end, I pray daily, without ceasing.

Ikan, please hear what the prophet wrote about the wrath and vengeance of an offended God:

5T 211
Thus "Peace and safety" is the cry from men who will never again lift up their voice like a trumpet to show God's people their transgressions and the house of Jacob their sins. These dumb dogs that would not bark are the ones who feel the just vengeance of an offended God. Men, maidens, and little children all perish together. {5T 211.2}

EW 36
Then I saw that Jesus would not leave the most holy place until every case was decided either for salvation or destruction, and that the wrath of God could not come until Jesus had finished His work in the most holy place, laid off His priestly attire, and clothed Himself with the garments of vengeance. Then Jesus will step out from between the Father and man, and God will keep silence no longer, but pour out His wrath on those who have rejected His truth. {EW 36.1}

FW 33
Men may make what excuse they please for their rejection of God's law; but no excuse will be accepted in the day of judgment. Those who are contending with God and strengthening their guilty souls in transgression must very soon meet the Great Lawgiver over His broken law. {FW 33.2}

The day of God's vengeance cometh--the day of the fierceness of His wrath. Who will abide the day of His coming? Men have hardened their hearts against the Spirit of God, but the arrows of His wrath will pierce where the arrows of conviction could not. God will not far hence arise to deal with the sinner. {FW 33.3}

PP 138, 139
Abraham had seen in his guests only three tired wayfarers, little thinking that among them was One whom he might worship without sin. But the true character of the heavenly messengers was now revealed. Though they were on their way as ministers of wrath, yet to Abraham, the man of faith, they spoke first of blessings. Though God is strict to mark iniquity and to punish transgression, He takes no delight in vengeance. The work of destruction is a "strange work" to Him who is infinite in love. {PP 138.4}

1SM 313
The love of a holy God is an amazing principle, which can stir the universe in our behalf during the hours of our probation and trial. But after the season of our probation, if we are found transgressors of God's law, the God of love will be found a minister of vengeance. God makes no compromise with sin. The disobedient will be punished. {1SM 313.1}

2BC 1005
God is slow to anger. He gave the wicked nations a time of probation that they might become acquainted with Him and His character. According to the light given was their condemnation for refusing to receive the light and choosing their own ways rather than God's ways. God gave the reason why He did not at once dispossess the Canaanites. The iniquity of the Amorites was not full. Through their iniquity they were gradually bringing themselves to the point where God's forbearance could no longer be exercised and they would be exterminated. Until the point was reached and their iniquity was full, the vengeance of God would be delayed. All nations had a period of probation. Those who made void God's law would advance from one degree of wickedness to another. Children would inherit the rebellious spirit of their parents and do worse than their fathers before them until God's wrath would fall upon them. The punishment was not less because deferred (MS 58, 1900). {2BC 1005.6}

2T 454
He has sold himself to work wickedness. What will be the wages of such a man? The indignation and wrath of God will punish him for sin. The vengeance of God will be aroused against all those whose lustful passions have been concealed under a ministerial cloak. {2T 454.2}

5T 207, 208
Jesus is about to leave the mercy seat of the heavenly sanctuary to put on garments of vengeance and pour out His wrath in judgments upon those who have not responded to the light God has given them. "Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil." Instead of being softened by the patience and long forbearance that the Lord has exercised toward them, those who fear not God and love not the truth strengthen their hearts in their evil course. But there are limits even to the forbearance of God, and many are exceeding these boundaries. They have overrun the limits of grace, and therefore God must interfere and vindicate His own honor. {5T 207.4}

Mike, you have what appears to me to be a blood-thirsty view of God. Is this how you see God? Or am I misreading your intent? Do you see Jesus as blood-thirsty as well? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but these are the words you seem to be using.

You seem only able to see the quotes that talk about God reigning fire from heaven, but the quotes which say that the glory of God destroys the wicked, or that the wicked are destroyed because they cut themselves off from God who is the source of life you completely ignore. Why is that?


Mike: 5. The point? God is not “subservient” to the laws of nature. He has the right to alter the natural consequences of our choices. And this God does with wonderful regularity. But you seem to be implying the consequences of our choices always obey the laws of nature. But what about Daniel’s companions and the fiery furnace? They didn’t succumb to natural law.

Tom: Of course God is not subservient to the laws of nature. Why would you think that based on anything I wrote? I have said nothing about the laws of nature. In fact, I have asked you to refrain from using the word "naturally" for the very purpose of avoiding any such ambiguity of such. Again, what did I write that has prompted you to write what you have.

What I have written is that sin prompts us to act selfishly, to cut ourselves off from God, which is suicidal. I have written that the fact that death is the consequence of sin is not an arbitrary act of power of God, but due to the very nature of sin itself. Selfishness is not a viable principle. It must lead to death. The death would have occured immediately if God had not intervened by His grace. (FW 21, 22)

Tom, I do not look at the Scriptures describing the wrath and vengeance of God as blood-thirsty. I just accept them as is, that it is a strange act of God. I’m not ignoring anything. I just interpret them differently than you do. You mentioned the laws of gravity and cancer awhile ago, that’s why I said God isn’t obliged to obey them, even if we fall off a cliff or get cancer.

Why did Jesus have to die? Because without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. Your view seems to understate, if not outright undermine, this answer. There are other reasons, but they are actually results (i.e., His death motivates us to hate sin and to love righteousness). God demands punishment and death for sin, and if Jesus had not stepped in on our behalf, the human race would not have survived the punishment and death of Adam and Eve.

Why does God demand punishment and death for sin? Because, in His omniscience, He understands all things and knows what is holy, just and good. The floods, the fires, the quakes, the epidemics, and the many other ways God has punished and killed sinners since the beginning of time, all speak to the fairness of God’s end time, strange act, the punishment and destruction of sin and sinners in a literal lake of fire and brimstone. The wrath of God is love. There’s nothing arbitrary or capricious about it.

Since this has been referenced to the Sabbath School study for this quarter, I have moved this topic in the Adult Sabbath School forum.