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Investigative Judgment #12870
03/27/05 01:15 PM
03/27/05 01:15 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
I have started this thread for the purpose of a clearer understanding of the investigative Judgment and the ministry of Christ in the MHP. On the thread of overcoming sin, I have made the following statements.
quote:

The true investigative judgment, that we need to know all about, has to do with us receiving God’s judgment over ours in genuine faith today. It is only for the living. It is happening right now; and if you are not participating you have no salvation. It is us, in genuine faith, letting God search our hearts and minds, allowing him to teach us in his way. A faith which believes in salvation without the exchange of my righteousness for his does not save. We can only exchange our righteousness for his by receiving his judgment. Genuine faith surrenders our view of things so that it can view all things through his eyes and spirit.

So the investigative judgment is nothing less than us receiving the mind of Christ in every word, thought, and action. It is also nothing more than that. Investigative judgment means nothing less and nothing more than “Not I but Christ” which is genuine faith. It is not God’s magnifier over our conduct. It is God’s salvation of our hearts and minds which bears the peaceable fruit of righteousness. It is a wonderful growing experience of genuine faith. Those who receive it in this way shall never fear any judgment. They have his mind.

While there certainly is more in the framework of this doctrine, I understand the above to be the essence, substance and purpose of it; that if the above is missing the whole doctrine loses its purpose.

Mike has declared: “John's view of the IJ contradicts SDA doctrine.”

I invite all those who have vested interest to present their thoughts here.

Re: Investigative Judgment #12871
03/27/05 05:08 PM
03/27/05 05:08 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
Tom said:
quote:
It seems to me the investigative judgment, and all judgment, is primarily about God. It is His character that was called into question. The whole purpose of Christ's mission was to reveal the Father, and in so doing set and keep men right with God. This must fit into the question somehow, mustn't it?

I likewise think this is pertinent.

Re: Investigative Judgment #12872
03/27/05 06:33 PM
03/27/05 06:33 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
I posted the following on another thread:
quote:
I see the judgment as a fearful thing. The COI were not rejoicing while the high priest was officiating within the MHP. Yes, our salvation is assured in Jesus, but it doesn't totally do away with the fearfulness of judgment. If we do not crucify every sin we shall be cast out with weeping and gnashing of teeth. Overcoming sin is a life and death issue.

Leviticus
16:31 It [shall be] a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.

Matthew
25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

1T 242
Angels are watching the development of character and weighing moral worth. All our words and acts are passing in review before God. It is a fearful, solemn time. The hope of eternal life is not to be taken up upon slight grounds; it must be settled between God and your own soul. {1T 242.2}

GC 489
"He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy." Proverbs 28:13. If those who hide and excuse their faults could see how Satan exults over them, how he taunts Christ and holy angels with their course, they would make haste to confess their sins and to put them away. Through defects in the character, Satan works to gain control of the whole mind, and he knows that if these defects are cherished, he will succeed. Therefore he is constantly seeking to deceive the followers of Christ with his fatal sophistry that it is impossible for them to overcome. But Jesus pleads in their behalf His wounded hands, His bruised body; and He declares to all who would follow Him: "My grace is sufficient for thee." 2 Corinthians 12:9. "Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light." Matthew 11:29, 30. Let none, then, regard their defects as incurable. God will give faith and grace to overcome them. {GC 489.2}

GC 489, 490
We are now living in the great day of atonement. In the typical service, while the high priest was making the atonement for Israel, all were required to afflict their souls by repentance of sin and humiliation before the Lord, lest they be cut off from among the people. In like manner, all who would have their names retained in the book of life should now, in the few remaining days of their probation, afflict their souls before God by sorrow for sin and true repentance. {GC 489.3}

quote:
Thomas, I'm not sure I understand what it means to afflict my soul during the day of atonement, but I suspect it includes many things, one of them being fear. I truly believe if my case were to come before God, right now, for investigation I would pass with flying colors. Why? Jesus is my Advocate and Judge. And, because I am doing everything in my power to cooperate with the Holy Spirit to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling. Think of how all the patriarchs and prophets shook with fear in the presence of God. It seems unavoidable.

Philippians
2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

Hebrews
10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Revelation
14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Ecclesiastes
12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.
12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.

http://www.maritime-sda-online.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000266;p=6

Re: Investigative Judgment #12873
03/27/05 06:34 PM
03/27/05 06:34 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
John posted this on the same thread:
quote:
The dead cannot sin so they needn't overcome any, so likewise they need not worry about having any known defects. The corpses would have a hard time of afflicting their souls, and I do not see why they should unless you believe in purgatory. I also do not know what Christ would be ministering in the MHP about the dead, unless it was some masses or some such. I hope I am not sounding sacrilegious here. In terms of the 144,000, well, they are a special breed which most of us do not qualify since the Sunday laws are not in effect, and that means by the way that none of the living are being judged yet so what is the point of afflicting our souls since God is not paying any attention to us while he is so busy about the dead. And perhaps some will take that to mean that it is alright if they still have some sin; for the time for sinless ness has not arrived. (please do not implicate anything I have said here with EW)

I am sorry Mike; the ministry of Christ in the MHP is for the Living and is the work of Salvation. It is going on right now and it is for you and me. Afflicting your soul will not help very much at all, but receiving his judgment in faith will do wonders.


Re: Investigative Judgment #12874
03/27/05 06:37 PM
03/27/05 06:37 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
I posted this:
quote:
John, your views on the IJ do not agree with the SDA view.

GC 483
Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. {GC 483.1}

GC 485
The work of the investigative judgment and the blotting out of sins is to be accomplished before the second advent of the Lord. Since the dead are to be judged out of the things written in the books, it is impossible that the sins of men should be blotted out until after the judgment at which their cases are to be investigated. {GC 485.2}

GC 486
Both the living and the dead are to be judged "out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." {GC 486.1}

GC 488
The subject of the sanctuary and the investigative judgment should be clearly understood by the people of God. All need a knowledge for themselves of the position and work of their great High Priest. Otherwise it will be impossible for them to exercise the faith which is essential at this time or to occupy the position which God designs them to fill. {GC 488.2}

GC 489, 490
In like manner, all who would have their names retained in the book of life should now, in the few remaining days of their probation, afflict their souls before God by sorrow for sin and true repentance. {GC 489.3}

GC 490
Soon--none know how soon--it will pass to the cases of the living. {GC 490.1}

quote:
John, what you say about the work of God in our lives now is good and true, but it isn't what the IJ is all about. The work you are referring to is not the annual day of atonement, not according to SDA theology. Jesus' work in the MHP involves blotting out the record and memory of sin, or blotting out names from the Book of Life. This began for the righteous dead in 1844, and will include the living when the sunday laws are enforced. It hasn't started for the living yet.

The way the IJ of the dead and the living relates to this thread is we must first overcome all of our defective traits of character, otherwise, our names, instead of our sins, will be blotted out of the Book of Life. Whether our case comes before God for review and investigation after we die or while we are still alive the same thing applies - our defective traits of character must be overcome. In this regard there is no difference between the dead and the living. The 144,000 are no more or no less victorious over their defective traits of character than anyone else who makes it to heaven.


Re: Investigative Judgment #12875
03/27/05 07:07 PM
03/27/05 07:07 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
I repost this from another thread to complete what Mike reposted above.
quote:
Mike: I see the judgment as a fearful thing. The COI were not rejoicing while the high priest was officiating within the MHP. Yes, our salvation is assured in Jesus, but it doesn't totally do away with the fearfulness of judgment. If we do not crucify every sin we shall be cast out with weeping and gnashing of teeth. Overcoming sin is a life and death issue.
Mike: I see the judgment as a fearful thing.

John: When I first turned to seek the Lord I was afraid; afraid of what he might do to me or ask of me. Sinful nature is sinfully afraid of God. This is how Satan keeps us away from God; through fear of death. But, there was something that said: if he died for me, why would he want to harm me? I “risked” against my fear, and discovered a wonderful Savior. I rejoice daily in his judgments – they are life everlasting.

Mike: The COI were not rejoicing while the high priest was officiating within the MHP.

John: They had no faith.

Mike: Yes, our salvation is assured in Jesus,

John: That sounds abstract and theoretical.

Mike: but it doesn't totally do away with the fearfulness of judgment.

John: The fearfulness cannot be done away with, until you receive the judgment. The fearfulness increases the longer you delay. It is your privilege and salvation to receive it now. He is calling you now. Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Mike: If we do not crucify every sin we shall be cast out with weeping and gnashing of teeth.

John: How will you do it? It is his judgment that does it. That is how sin is crucified and overcome. Sin knows it and that is why it is afraid of the judgment. Take hold by faith of him that died for you. Let him judge you. Do not let him go till he bless you. Sin will be crucified and you will live.

Mike: Overcoming sin is a life and death issue.

John: Indeed it is. If you receive his judgment now, sin will be crucified and overthrown, and you will live in the joy of the Lord. If you do not receive his judgment, sin will continue to live and you shall remain in torment, fear, and death.

2Co 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
2Co 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

Re: Investigative Judgment #12876
03/27/05 07:09 PM
03/27/05 07:09 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
I think we can now continue the discussion here

Re: Investigative Judgment #12877
03/27/05 07:30 PM
03/27/05 07:30 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
quote:
John, what you say about the work of God in our lives now is good and true, but it isn't what the IJ is all about. The work you are referring to is not the annual day of atonement, not according to SDA theology. Jesus' work in the MHP involves blotting out the record and memory of sin, or blotting out names from the Book of Life. This began for the righteous dead in 1844, and will include the living when the sunday laws are enforced. It hasn't started for the living yet.
Mike: Jesus' work in the MHP involves blotting out the record and memory of sin, or blotting out names from the Book of Life.

John: Is this supposed to contradict what I have said?

Since Jesus’ work in the MHP involves the blotting out of the record and memory of sin – isn’t that on the living, and the living only? I am not aware of the dead having any memory. So the only ones whose record and memory of sin can be blotted out would be the living and it can only be while they are living. How is this accomplished? By the ministry of Christ in the MHP who is ministering to us his judgments, which we can receive as I have stated in above posts.

Mike: This began for the righteous dead in 1844, and will include the living when the sunday laws are enforced. It hasn't started for the living yet.


John: You propose that the ministry to the living will not happen until the Sunday laws have been enforced. I say that is an erroneous understanding.

If Christ is not ministering to the living today, even now, then we are orphans, and have no living Saviour. Your consideration of the IJ to the exclusion of his ministry to the living now, makes the whole of the doctrine amiss. It is only in consideration and purpose of his ministry to living, that the other considerations of the IJ have any purpose, value, and meaning.

Re: Investigative Judgment #12878
03/27/05 08:31 PM
03/27/05 08:31 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
John, your dispute is not with me, it is with the Spirit of Prophecy. The burden to disprove what she wrote above, in my last post containing quotes from the SOP, rests with you. Please, for the record, explain why what she wrote cannot possibly be true. Thank you.

Re: Investigative Judgment #12879
03/27/05 11:56 PM
03/27/05 11:56 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
I did not declare a dispute. In fact I think she quite readily agrees with me.

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