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Re: Investigative Judgment #12910
04/01/05 12:36 AM
04/01/05 12:36 AM
C
Charity  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020

4500+ Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
I hope I'm not overstating my concern about the diminished role of the law in your perspectives. We agree then that the law is central to the IJ?

Regarding your quote by EGW, Mike, there are other quotes that put the above quote in context. Ellen White did not mean by that quote to say that none of the cases of the living had been opened before 1911.

Re: Investigative Judgment #12911
04/01/05 01:32 AM
04/01/05 01:32 AM
C
Charity  Offline
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Active Member 2020

4500+ Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
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Regarding a case in the OT of someone being placed before the bar of God, see the fascinating story of the demise of King Ahab. Here is part of the story when the prophet tells the King what he had just seen in a vision:

quote:
18:18 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and [on] his left.
18:19 And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.
18:20 Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?
18:21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And [the LORD] said, Thou shalt entice [him], and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do [even] so.
18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee. 2 Chor


Re: Investigative Judgment #12912
04/01/05 02:13 AM
04/01/05 02:13 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Mark, I think there's different perspectives through which one can look at things. Some things strike me as "wrong," but in general I'm hesitant to want to judge or label others. I've seen valid points by John and Mike both, but it seems to me that they are to a large extent speaking past one another.

Regarding the role of the law in the IJ, I think that's one way of looking at it. However, if we consider that the law is simply a transcript of God's character, I don't know that it's necessary to see it in terms of the law. I think it's certainly useful to understand the issues in terms of the law, because that's the way that many people think of it, so if you want to be able to communicate with people who think that way, you have to be able to speak in terms of the law.

Re: Investigative Judgment #12913
04/01/05 02:26 AM
04/01/05 02:26 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
The Ahab story is one of the clearest examples of the principle that God is often presented in Scripture as doing that which He permits.

Re: Investigative Judgment #12914
04/01/05 02:50 AM
04/01/05 02:50 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Am I the only one on this forum that believes the IJ hadn't begun for the living as of 1911? If so, then when did it begin for the living? For that matter, when did it begin for the dead? Or, am I the only one who believes it didn't begin until 1844?

Re: Investigative Judgment #12915
04/02/05 01:09 AM
04/02/05 01:09 AM
M
myarsman  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 186
North Carolina
I have read through this thread concerning the IJ which has raised some questions in my mind......

Since the traditional SDA understanding of the IJ is based primarily upon the fulfillment of the Jewish sanctuary services, particularly the Day of Atonement service, I was wondering if someone could provide some answers to these questions....

1. What portion of the DOA demonstrated a distinction between the "judgment of the living and the dead"?

2. For that matter, is the term "judgment" even used in the Biblical descrition of the DOA?

3. What portion of the DOA demonstrates a "review" of the records of all sinners, repentant and non-repentent?

I would appreciate an "Biblical" references that can provide answers to these questions.

Re: Investigative Judgment #12916
04/02/05 06:29 AM
04/02/05 06:29 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Regarding judgment being involved, Daniel 7 comes to mind. Books being examined suggest the possibility of names being considered, since the books are often referred to as having names written in them.

These are just a couple of quick thoughts.

Re: Investigative Judgment #12917
04/02/05 01:45 PM
04/02/05 01:45 PM
Cheri Fritz  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 278
Gloversville, NY, USA
Greetings Brother Bob D,

Your Question:

quote:
"1. What portion of the DOA demonstrated a distinction between the "judgment of the living and the dead"?"

Great question!

Lets return to the earthly sanctuary example:

During the whole year, the sins of people were typically forgiven through the priestly ministration in the holy place. But the day of atonement is the cleansing of all sin; it was the ceremony of blotting out sins. God showed through this example that although sins were forgiven throughout the year, that on the great Day of Atonement their sins could be blotted out.


"Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement." Leviticus 23:27.

"Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat: And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness." Leviticus 16:15, 16.


My answer:

"All are now deciding their eternal destiny. Men need to be aroused to realize the solemnity of the time, the nearness of the day when human probation shall be ended. Decided efforts should be made to bring the message for this time prominently before the people. The third angel is to go forth with great power. Let none ignore this work or treat it as of little importance." Vol. 6 Testimonies for the Church p 16:4.

Your question:
quote:
"2. For that matter, is the term "judgment" even used in the Biblical descrition of the DOA?"

" For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?1 Peter 4:17.
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil." Ecclesiastes 12:13, 14.



Your question:

quote:
"3. What portion of the DOA demonstrates a "review" of the records of all sinners, repentant and non-repentent?"

"So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God."Romans 14:12.


The judgment of the wicked dead come after the 1,000 years.


"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." Revelation 2-:12,13.

quote:

At the time appointed for the Judgment--the close of the 2300 days, in 1844--began the work of investigation and blotting out of sins. All who have ever taken upon themselves the name of Christ must pass its searching scrutiny. Both the living and the dead are to be judged "out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
The Great Controversy 486.1.(1888)

The severity of our time is so important.

The issue of 144,000 thousand it to help us realize the solemn times in which we are living. "But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Matthew 24:37.

Revelation 14:13 teaches that any who fall to sleep shall have their reward. I believe this and do not doubt there is a special resurrection that Daniel spoke about.

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Dan. 12:2.


I suggest for those that are not well aquainted with this, to read Early Writings, 1881, Spiritual Gifts, Vol. 1, pages 285.1-287.2. You will note there are two types resurrections when Christ returns. One is before the Lord announces the day and hour, and this special resurrection is speaking of Dan.12:2. The second resurrection is later when the sleeping saints are called forth.


quote:
"There was a mighty earthquake. The graves were opened, and those who had died in faith under the third angel's message,keeping the Sabbath, came forth from their dusty beds, glorified, to hear the covenant of peace that God was to make with those who had kept His law." {EW 285.1}
We are living in the most solemn ocassion. We have a blessing though, we may learn to solely rely on the Heavenly Father as Christ Jesus directs, be taught by the Spirit and receive the righteousness of Christ.

Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri Fritz

Re: Investigative Judgment #12918
04/02/05 03:54 PM
04/02/05 03:54 PM
Ronnie Whalon  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 126
USA
CHAPTER XXIII.

"THE HOUR OF HIS JUDGMENT IS COME." The Great Nations of Today, p.243 – 251 by A.T. Jones

Its kind of long but I could not gainsay what he presented concerning the judgment of the living.

ALL that is proposed to be accomplished by this great threefold message is in view of the fact that "the hour" of God's "judgment is come." Therefore the one great object of the Third Angel's Message is to prepare the world for the judgment: to prepare to stand in the judgment all who receive the message; and to ripen the world for the judgment in all who, by refusing the message which will prepare them to stand in the judgment, subject themselves to the judgment itself in all its terror.

The word of this Message itself is that "the hour of His judgment is come," not that it will come, but that it "IS come." To everyone, therefore, who receives this message, the judgment of God becomes an ever-present reality. All these stand always before the judgment seat, and put themselves voluntarily under all the tests of the judgment. This is so in the very nature of belief of the message; for when a message of God declares that "the hour of His judgment is come," what can such a message amount to in the belief of a person to whom it is not a present reality that "the hour of His judgment is come"? And when it is held by the professed believer that it is the truth that "the hour of His judgment is come," what can such a belief amount to if that person does not place himself in the very judgment itself, as a present thing, and does not willingly subject himself to all the searching realities of that judgment?

This is emphasized by the further fact that this message is to make ready a people prepared to meet the Lord when He comes in the clouds of heaven, -- a people who will be alive on the earth when the Lord comes, and who will be translated without seeing death. Rev. 14:4; 15:2, 3;1 Thess. 4: 15-17. And all those who will be ready must be "accounted worthy to escape" all the evils that come upon the earth, and "to stand before the Son of man." Luke 21:36. They must be accounted worthy before that coming occurs, or else they will not be worthy at His coming, and, therefore, can not be saved by Him at His coming. And in this counting of each person worthy, or otherwise, the decisive word is, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Rev. 22:11.

Thus, by the very nature of the decision of the judgment in the cases of these living ones, in the time of the message that "the hour of His judgment is come," it is evident that there is no long process of examination and of balancing of accounts one against another; but that it is simply the recognition of the condition of each person, according as that condition is by his own choice. Just what he is at the moment when the crisis of the decision in his case is reached, that he forever remains. If he is righteous, the judgment recognizes it, and pronounces the word, "Let him be righteous still." And this word is so pronounced at that moment simply because he already is what this says that he shall be "still." If he is unjust, then the word of the judgment is, "Let him be unjust still." And this is so said simply because that is what he is at the moment, whether the judgment were pronounced or not; and the crisis of the judgment, coming to his case just at that moment, finds it so, recognizes it, and says, "Let him be unjust still."

And why should it not be thus? Here is a message of God, proclaimed to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying to all, "Fear God, and give glory to Him," especially because "the hour of His judgment is come." On one hand, here are the people who have received the message. That message has in it all the divine power of the everlasting gospel, fully to fit them for the judgment; and their very acceptance of the message is a confession that they recognize the fact that "the hour of His judgment is come," and that they are in this "hour." And if, in spite of this, any of them lives as if he were not in "the hour of God's judgment" and so shall be unprepared for the blessed word to be pronounced, "Let him be righteous still," and is prepared for the awful word, "Let him be unjust still," surely, none but himself can be in any wise to blame for that. The decision is as it is because of his disregard of the very thing that he professed to hold, and the very thing that had called him to the profession which he holds.

On the other hand, here is a message, proclaimed to all the world, -- to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice: "Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come." And here are vast multitudes of people who refuse to believe and there is any truth in the statement that "the hour of His judgment is come." They, therefore, go on in their way, utterly regardless of the truth that they are in the presence of the judgment. Then, when the case of any individual among these is reached, and the word must be, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still," this also is simply because of his own decision; the judgment pronounced is simply a recognition of the condition in which he is, and which he himself has fixed by his disregard of the message that would have altogether changed his condition, and fitted him for that other word, "He that is righteous, let him be righteous still."

Often, people ask, Shall we know when the time of the judgment shall have come? Shall we be able to know when the judgment shall have come to the living? The great threefold message -- the Third Angel's Message -- gives the answer. Does not that very message itself say plainly, as plainly as the Lord can speak, "The hour of His judgment is come"? Has not this message said the same thing to every man who has ever heard it? and has not that message continued to say this to him from the day that he first heard it?

This being so, is it possible that anyone who has heard that message, and above all anyone who professes to believe that message, has not yet learned that "the hour of his judgment is come ," when that very word is what he heard, and what he has professed to believe, from the day he heard it? And if any professed believer of the Third Angel's Message does not believe this word of God, which, all this time, he has professed to believe, when it tells him that the hour of God's judgment is come, then would he believe it if the Lord should tell him again? Is it possible that anyone has lived under a profession of belief of this message, even for a day, and yet has not placed himself in the presence of the judgment, and has not subjected himself to all the searching tests of the judgment? Is it possible that any one of these professing to believe the word that "the hour of His judgment is come," has not believed it at all, and has been acting all the time as he would not act if he did believe in reality that "the hour of His judgment is come"?

So far as concerns every believer of the Third Angel's Message, each individual has fixed it that, with himself, the judgment has begun upon the living; for he is alive, and has accepted a message from God which declares to him that the hour of God's judgment is come. Being alive, and having accepted such a message from God, by the very force of his profession, simply by the virtue of his belief, he enters alive, hourly into the judgment. He lives in presence of the judgment. He opens his life to all the searching tests of the judgment. And this being so with him, to him the question is answered, Shall we be able to know when the judgment has begun upon the living?

The third Angel's Message -- this great threefold message -- is in every feature present truth. And when in its own words it is shown that this message is given in view of the fact that the hour of God's judgment "is come," and knowing that now is the time of that message, it is only present truth thoroughly to believe that in very truth "the hour of His judgment is come."

Indeed, that this message were ever given at all would be evidence in itself that the hour of His judgment is come; for no message of God can ever be given before the time. Therefore whenever this message shall be found sounding to the world, it will be then true that the hour of God's judgment is come. And the word of the message that says so will be only the announcement of the fact that the hour of His judgment is come. And everyone believing the message will believe that this is the fact: he will have to believe it, to be a believer of the message; because the very word of the message that he professes to believe says that this is so. And as certainly as he believes this, he will enter hourly into God's judgment, and will constantly hold himself subject to all the tests of that judgment.

That message is now due in the world. It is being given to the world. For years this has been so. Therefore for years it has been, and it now is, present truth that the hour of God's judgment is come. Thousands upon thousands of persons profess to believe that message. Therefore the principle is that this whole people of that message are entered hourly into God's judgment, and, as constantly as they live, do subject themselves to all the searching tests of that judgment. All these, therefore, know that as for themselves, each individually, the judgment has begun upon the living; for they are living. To them the message of God has come that "the hour of His judgment is come;" they have accepted that message, and accordingly have entered into that judgment, and so they live constantly in the presence of that awful fact. Consequently we say again that with these there is no room for any such question as to "whether the judgment has begun upon the living."

And if there be any who profess to believe this message, and yet are living as they would not live if they knew that the judgment had come; and would make a revolution in their lives if only they knew that the judgment had come upon the living, but would not make this revolution if they could be certain that the judgment had not come; then to what purpose to them could be a message, even if it were sent directly from heaven to them personally, that the judgment had begun upon the living? In such case, any change that would be sought or made, would have no virtue whatever; and these persons would be no more prepared for the decision of the judgment than if they had heard nothing about it. The only change that would be made in such a life would be altogether out of fear of the consequences, and not out of any love of righteousness. Therefore, in the nature of things, in such a case the word could not be, He is righteous, "let him be righteous still;" because he is not righteous: he has not in his heart any love of righteousness. This is demonstrated by the fact that, under the very profession of this judgment-message, he lived without regard to the judgment: he indulged evil things in his life, -- things which he knew could not pass the judgment, -- and he continued to indulge them until the startling word came to him personally that the judgment was come to him. Then, all at once, and only that he may pass the judgment, and escape the consequences of the evil things that, in spite of righteousness, he has indulged, he sets forth to make a grand revolution in his life!

But no such thing as that will ever work in the judgment of God. Whoever will pass in righteousness the judgment of God, will do so only because he has "loved righteousness, and hated iniquity," whether the judgment was begun upon him or not. He loves righteousness because it is righteousness, and he hates iniquity because it is iniquity; and he will no more indulge iniquity in his life with the judgment a thousand years away than with the judgment only a minute away.

There is, therefore, no room whatever for any professed believer of the Third Angel's Message, ever to ask whether the judgment has begun upon the living. Every true believer of the Third Angel's Message KNOWS, because the Word of God says it, and has said it for years, that "the hour of His judgment is come."

And to whomsoever in all the world this message shall come, even though he believe it not, to him it will be true, and he may know it, that the time of judgment has come to him. Whether he will recognize it or ignore it, is for him alone to say; but to him it will be the truth that the hour of God's judgment "is come."

"The hour of His judgment is come." It is here: it is a present thing as certainly as the world is here. And, knowing this, every true believer of this message lives accordingly: he puts himself alive into the judgment; he reins himself up hourly before the judgment seat; because "the hour of His judgment is come." To the true believer of the Third Angel's Message this is a fact; it is living truth.

And how shall he ever give this message to the world otherwise? can he, with any force of truth at all, preach to another man that the hour of God's judgment "is come," when he himself does not believe at all that it "is come," but only that it will come? Who is there in the world that does not believe that God's judgment will come? But the Third Angel's Message is not that the judgment will come; but that the very time, the "hour, of his judgment IS COME."

Since this judgment, in its decision when pronounced, is but a recognition and declaration of a condition that already exists, and is, therefore, practically instantaneous, it follows that the means of preparation for this awful decision shall be such that it shall be able to effect that preparation also instantaneously. And precisely this provision is that which is offered by the Lord in this great, glorious Third Angel's Message; for it carries the "everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people." And this everlasting gospel is "the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth." "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith."

Re: Investigative Judgment #12919
04/02/05 06:02 PM
04/02/05 06:02 PM
M
myarsman  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 186
North Carolina
Cheri/Tom

With all do respect, I do not believe that you have been able to answer my questions.

How do the Jewish Sanctuary Services demonstrate "judgment"?

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