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Re: Investigative Judgment #12920
04/02/05 07:22 PM
04/02/05 07:22 PM
Cheri Fritz  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 278
Gloversville, NY, USA
Greetings Bob D,

Ok.

I will be studying prayerfully to see if there is anything else that I may produce for answering your questions.

Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri Fritz

Re: Investigative Judgment #12921
04/02/05 11:00 PM
04/02/05 11:00 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Bob D,

You asked
quote:
1. What portion of the DOA demonstrated a distinction between the "judgment of the living and the dead"?
Bob, not all details of a truth could possibly be represented in a ritual.

quote:
2. For that matter, is the term "judgment" even used in the Biblical descrition of the DOA?
No, the term “judgment” is not used, by the idea is clearly implied. The daily service was prominently a MEDIATORIAL service, but the ritual of the DOA was prominently a JUDGMENT service:

“Whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people” (Lev. 23:29).

Besides, the Yom Kippur has always been considered in Judaism a Day of Judgment. Note the following:

“Even the angels, we are told in the Ritual, are seized with fear and trembling; they hurry to and fro and say: ‘Behold the Day of Judgment has come.’ The Day of Atonement is the Day of Judgment” (Paul Isaac Hershon, Treasures of the Talmud [1882], p. 97).

“God, seated on His throne to judge the world, at the same time Judge, Pleader, Expert and Witness, openeth the Book of Records. ... The great trumpet is sounded; a still, small voice is heard, ... saying, This is the day of judgment. ... On New Year’s Day the decree is written; on the Day of Atonement it is sealed who shall live and who are to die” (The Jewish Encyclopedia, vol. 2, p. 286).

quote:
3. What portion of the DOA demonstrates a "review" of the records of all sinners, repentant and non-repentent?
As I said, not all the details of a truth could be represented in a ritual, but in the ritual of the Yom Kippur some things were specially made clear: 1) forgiven sins did not simply “vanish”, but were transferred to the sanctuary; 2) they remained there until the day when the sanctuary was cleansed.
How can our sins be transferred to the heavenly sanctuary except this is referring to a record of these sins, and how can the sanctuary be cleansed except by the removal of these sins from the records?

Re: Investigative Judgment #12922
04/02/05 11:00 PM
04/02/05 11:00 PM
Ronnie Whalon  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 126
USA
Bro. Bob D:

23:27 Also on the tenth [day] of this seventh month [there shall be] a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
23:28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it [is] a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.
23:29 For whatsoever soul [it be] that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.
23:30 And whatsoever soul [it be] that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people. Lev.

Verses 29 and 30 reveal that this was a day when a decision was made [judgment] concerning people. None of the other feast have such language mentioned with them.

8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, [that] thou make all things according to the pattern showed to thee in the mount.
8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Heb.

This sysyem was not the perfect system. One had to grasp by faith from the understanding of the Levitical System the Heavenly. It was given to give a better understanding of the great plan of redemption. At first God taught the plan of redemption to the people by the altar service. Then came the Levitical to give a better understanding and knowledge that once in the end of the world there would come a judgment.

9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment...Hebrews

The Levitical system could not take into the account the dead. If one committed a sin during the year and brought his sacrifice to the preist and the blood was sprinkled [which represented a record of sin], and that person died before the Day of Atonemnet in that year the Levitical system could not judge him but the perfect and better system could [the heavenly] for if this person died living up to the truth as taught by the Levitical system and grasping by faith the more perfet plan their name would come up in time of judgment of the true tabernacle built by God and not man.

This is how righteous Abel was the first to be judge and he was under the altar service [Gen 4:4;Heb.11:4].

As for as sinners under these earthly services one not participating in the Levitical would definetly be cut off - destroyed probably by stoning, therefore his name concerning the more perfect of the Heavenly tabernacle would definetely not be placed with those for judgment who profess faith in the earthly services.

Leviticus chapter 16 gives the insructions for the earthly DOA.

Verse 25 says - And the fat of the sin offering shall he burn upon the altar. Lev.

37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD [shall be] as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. Psalms

This burning of the fat taught the judgment of the wicked on the Earthly DOA.

Hope this helps.

Re: Investigative Judgment #12923
04/02/05 11:30 PM
04/02/05 11:30 PM
M
myarsman  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 186
North Carolina
quote:
Originally posted by Ronnie Whalon:
Bro. Bob D:

23:27 Also on the tenth [day] of this seventh month [there shall be] a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
23:28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it [is] a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.
23:29 For whatsoever soul [it be] that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.
23:30 And whatsoever soul [it be] that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people. Lev.

Verses 29 and 30 reveal that this was a day when a decision was made [judgment] concerning people. None of the other feast have such language mentioned with them.


Ronnie,

Verse 28 clearly states that this service was for the purposes of "Atonement" not "Judgment".

Atonement means to be made "One" with God.

Verses 29,30 only states that all participants are to "afflict their souls" or to humble themselves before God. They were also to refrain from doing any work on this day. In other words, this day was considered to be a holy day or Sabbath. Anyone who did not obey this command would suffer consequences.

Again, there is no direct or indirect reference to a "Judgment" taking place.

Judgment is used to determine the guilt or innocence of the accused. In OT times this would have been done prior to the Day of Atonement.

God gave specific commands that if an Israelite committed a sin, they were to offer a personal sacrifice so that they would be released from the guilt of the sin. This would take place on a daily basis.

The purpose of the DOA was to offer the atoning sacrifice which would "cleanse" the sanctuary of all recorded sins from previous daily sacrifices.

Also, the confessed sins of the people would be placed upon the head of the Scapegoat that would then be lead out into the wilderness and set free.

Again, no judgment is inferred in this service.

If any Jew had failed to offer a sacrifice for their sins prior to the DOA, they would have suffered the consequences prior to the DOA. Judgment would have been pronounced upon them prior to the DOA service.

Re: Investigative Judgment #12924
04/03/05 10:38 AM
04/03/05 10:38 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
quote:
Again, there is no direct or indirect reference to a "Judgment" taking place.
Bob,

I think you must have overlooked my post, just above Ronnie's. If there was no direct or indirect reference to a "judgment" taking place, how is it that the Jews came up with this idea?

Re: Investigative Judgment #12925
04/03/05 01:21 PM
04/03/05 01:21 PM
Ronnie Whalon  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 126
USA
Judgment 1 a : a formal utterance of an authoritative opinion b : an opinion so pronounced
2 a : a formal decision given by a court b (1) : an obligation (as a debt) created by the decree of a court (2) : a certificate evidencing such a decree
3 a capitalized : the final judging of mankind by God b : a divine sentence or decision; specifically : a calamity held to be sent by God
4 a : the process of forming an opinion or evaluation by discerning and comparing b : an opinion or estimate so formed
5 a : the capacity for judging : DISCERNMENT b : the exercise of this capacity
6 : a proposition stating something believed or asserted

On the DOA the services were brought into the present of God , the Shekinah Glory. This was to truly determine who was at one with God for now one who could read the thoughts and motives set on the mercy seat. One may have brought their sacrifice for the forgivensess of sin during the daily administration but the DOA was to teach them this spiritual truth. That the only way that they could be at one with God was to have entered truly into his rest – ceasing from sin not by their works but by God working in them to keep his Law and the Law being spiritual also their thoughts and motives were to be brought into account on this day. This is what Christ had to remind them in the Sermon on the Mount.

One may have brought the sacrifice during the daily administration and confessed his sin over the victim and the priest sprinkled the blood no further than the second veil or sometimes ate the sacrifice to fulfill the requirements of the Levitical Law for forgiveness and this was the work they were commanded to do; but when the yearly DOA came the scrutiny came closer. The motives and thoughts were to be judged because the blood was sprinkled in the Most Holy and only if one had a clean heart [ thoughts and motives pure] could they be at one with God; and God is the only one who can discern the thoughts and motives of the heart. The motives and thoughts were called into account on the DOA for the blood [a record of the sin] was now sprinkled in the presence of God. When the blood was bought in his presence he would determine not only if I kept the letter of the Law but the spirituality of the Law. One may have never killed but if he hated his brother in his heart he was not at one with God. The DOA taught this spiritual truth which we being in the antitypical DOA must not forget. Most of the Jews forgot it but the truth was taught to them yearly by the DOA.

3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 2 Cor.

The day of atonement, the cleansing of the earthly sanctuary, was and is still understood by the Jews to be a day of judgment. And even now, in their scattered condition, though they cannot have all the service of the ancient time that was connected with that solemn day, it is observed as a day of judgment. In proof of this we will first quote from a Jewish paper published in San Francisco, California, called The Jewish Exponent, the organ of the orthodox Jews west of the Rocky Mountains. In the issue for September, 1892, was the announcement that before the issuing of the next number, the seventh month and day of atonement would come. Their name for the seventh month is Tishree, and that of the sixth is Ellul; so the paper stated, "The month of Ellul is here, and the monitory sounds of the Shofar [the trumpet that was to be blown from the first to the tenth day of the seventh month, Ps. 81:3, 4] are to be heard every morning in the orthodox synagogues, advising preparation for the day of memorial, and the final judgement of Yom Kippur." As they were in the close of Ellul, the sixth month, and Tishree, the seventh month, was about to open, they would, every morning for ten days, hear the trumpet announcing the final judgment of the year in that typical system.

Testimony of a Jewish Rabbi
Again, in the year 1902, Rabbi Isidore Myer, of a large congregation of Jews in San Francisco, Cal., in announcing the day of atonement, said: "While crossing the threshold of time from one year to another, the Israelite is forcibly reminded of the creation and of the universal sovereignty of the Creator, and is called upon to celebrate, with blast of trumpet, the anniversary, so to speak, of the birth of time and of the coronation of the great King. He is also sum- by the voice of the same trumpet, or Shofar, to scrutinize retrospectively his action of the past year while he stands tremblingly before the all-seeing eye of Eternal Justice sitting on the throne of judgment."

The Jewish people of this day who carefully study their service understand the type, at least. That this is so is seen both in their sayings and in their writings. As proof, your attention is called to the following circumstance: In September, 1869, during a series of meetings held at Healdsburg, Cal., a well-educated Jew who resided in that place became much interested in the meetings. Being a man who was very diligent in his mercantile business, it was a matter of great surprise that he should leave his store to attend a meeting in mid-week, and in the daytime. At the close of the meeting, one of the ministers questioned him regarding the matter. He replied, with seriousness: "Why, elder, a Jew who broke every Sabbath in the year would not dare to work to-day. This is the day of atonement, the tenth day of the Jewish seventh month." The minister then asked, "What is the most solemn name your people have for this day?" With a most devout and reverential look, and in a tremulous tone of voice, he replied, "To-day is the day of judgment." By JN Loughborough

Re: Investigative Judgment #12926
04/04/05 03:57 AM
04/04/05 03:57 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
It seems clear to me in Daniel 7 that judgment is involved.

Re: Investigative Judgment #12927
04/03/05 08:49 PM
04/03/05 08:49 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Yes, Tom, but Bob's question was "How do the Jewish Sanctuary Services demonstrate 'judgment'?"

Re: Investigative Judgment #12928
04/04/05 04:35 AM
04/04/05 04:35 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Can you separate Daniel 7 from the sanctuary services? It doesn't seem to me that you can, any more than you could separate Hebrews or Revelation. The sanctuary services were given to illustrate truths. These truths are explicated in Daniel (as well as other books).

Re: Investigative Judgment #12929
04/04/05 11:56 AM
04/04/05 11:56 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
OK, Tom, it's just that Daniel 7 doesn't mention explicitly the sanctuary.

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