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Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Green Cochoa] #151480
04/02/13 02:18 PM
04/02/13 02:18 PM
K
kland  Offline
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It sounds like to me you are hanging on, as far as possible, the yeast germs shall be destroyed, to mean that they are NOT destroyed.

Do you mean that yeast dies after 2-3 days?


(one right after another...)

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: kland] #151482
04/02/13 02:28 PM
04/02/13 02:28 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
It sounds like to me you are hanging on, as far as possible, the yeast germs shall be destroyed, to mean that they are NOT destroyed.

Do you mean that yeast dies after 2-3 days?


(one right after another...)

Would you like yeast to be growing in your gut? Are you acquainted with anyone who has had Candida?

It's worth following Mrs. White's counsel. You will notice that her statement focuses on the hazard of eating fresh yeast bread. It does not mention alcohol. So, since this is not really about alcohol, we have strayed... topic

Although yeast is very much related to most alcohol production, let's get back to the subject of the alcohol itself.

Yeast dies without food and moisture. It does not all die instantly. Feel free to reach your own conclusions.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Green Cochoa] #151523
04/03/13 02:58 PM
04/03/13 02:58 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa

Would you like yeast to be growing in your gut? Are you acquainted with anyone who has had Candida?
(And yet another)

Yes I agree this is way off topic from both the thread and in response to me.

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Daryl] #160685
01/21/14 11:56 AM
01/21/14 11:56 AM
A
Alchemy  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Daryl
Reading from another site prompted me to create this topic and ask the following question:

Is it OK for a Christian to drink alcohol?


No. I understand we may need to take medicine because of illness or injury. But, as far as Christian Living is concerned, we should never indulge in alcohol.

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Alchemy] #160686
01/21/14 12:43 PM
01/21/14 12:43 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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One nice thing about drinking alcohol--which I never do, by the way--is that not much lives or grows in it. It might be a safer beverage in some parts of the world than the ice water served at the restaurant.

"Drink a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities," we are told. What does this mean? The Greek word for "wine" was comprehensive of both alcoholic and non-alcoholic forms, so it is simply not possible to state categorically that one or the other was meant.

I do not drink alcohol. Not even a bit of it. I think it would be wrong of me to do so. But my convictions do not necessarily need to be applied to others as a rule of measure for them. May each be convinced in his own mind.

I believe there may well be a "moderate" level of use of such a thing as alcohol. As Alchemy implied, this may include the use of alcohol in medicinal form. (There are a number of medicines which depend upon alcohol as a portion of their ingredients, such as tinctures.) In any case, I do not feel free to judge others in meat or drink. (See 1 Corinthians 10:29.)

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Green Cochoa] #160692
01/21/14 03:34 PM
01/21/14 03:34 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Midland
A "moderate" level of medicinal use?
As opposed to what other levels of medicinal use?

By the way, there's not much that will grow in mercury solutions. Which were popular in years past, but now are just directly injected into people.

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: kland] #160758
01/23/14 05:46 AM
01/23/14 05:46 AM
dedication  Offline
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1 Thess. 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others; but let us watch and be sober.
5:7 For they that sleep, sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: dedication] #160779
01/24/14 03:17 PM
01/24/14 03:17 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,416
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Green, I don't suppose it would be worthwhile to ask you about whether you found the statement you thought existed. I found this:

Bread should be light and sweet. Not the least taint of sourness should be tolerated. The loaves should be small and so thoroughly baked that, so far as possible, the yeast germs shall be destroyed. When hot or new, raised bread of any kind is difficult of digestion. It should never appear on the table. This rule does not, however, apply to unleavened bread. Fresh rolls made of wheaten meal without yeast or leaven, and baked in a well-heated oven, are both wholesome and palatable. {MH 301.2}

Now I suppose you could take it to mean that the alcohol is not the concern but the yeast germs which survive the 350 degree oven! You probably cue in on "so far as possible" and intend it to mean that some are not destroyed. Then you cue in on "made of wheaten meal without yeast" and intend it to mean, see, no yeast germs! But you neglect to read "or leaven", and ignore that without yeast, no alcohol is produced.

If you still insist that yeast can survive 350 degrees, but dies within two days at room temperature, maybe you can apply for a patent for the ethanol fuel industry? It would be a great boon for production at distillation temperatures.

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: kland] #160836
01/26/14 05:23 AM
01/26/14 05:23 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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kland,

This continues to be off-topic. topic

It appears you found one of the better Ellen White statements on the subject. You are right that yeast would not last long at 350 degrees Fahrenheit. The problem is, you are mistaken about the temperature which the yeast actually endures. The core temperature of the bread likely never exceeds the boiling temperature of water. If it did, your bread would come out awfully dry. Do you know what zwieback is? It is a very dry form of bread. If you made zwieback out of your fresh bread, I don't think anyone would fault you for eating it on day one--fresh from the oven. I'm quite sure the yeast would be killed in that case. But the kind of fresh bread most people like is still soft and moist. In such a condition, the core temperature of the bread never exceeded the boiling temperature of water--else the water would have been boiled out already, and gone.

To use another illustration, people can survive boiling temperatures just fine. Read the excerpted material below. [NOTE: I added the bracketed Fahrenheit temperatures.]

Quote:
Sitting in a room with temperatures hot enough to make water boil may sound crazy but that is exactly what participants at Finland's World Sauna Championships have been doing for more than a decade.

Five-time champion Timo Kaukonen had become adept at enduring the tournament's 110C (230F) heat, lasting over 16 minutes in 2003.

...

Most sauna users stick to temperatures of around 80C [176F] for periods of five to six minutes, according to Finnish Sauna Society chief executive Kristian Miettinen.

However, a self-confessed "sauna freak", he usually heats the room to 100C [212F], while others regularly prefer short three to four-minute bursts at 130 to 140C [266 to 284F].

...people have safely enjoyed heat at 160C [320F].

[The full article, which speaks of sauna deaths and competitions as well, can be found HERE.]

If people can withstand 230 degree temperatures for more than a quarter of an hour, what makes you think yeast could not?

Mrs. White's statement is clear that it is because of the yeast that people should not eat fresh bread. One should eat the bread after a day to reduce the risk of yeast "germs" growing in the gut.

Again, alcohol boils at 160 degrees Fahrenheit. All the alcohol must be boiled away before the temperature can rise to its next plateau at 212 degrees, water's boiling temperature. The core temperature of the bread likely never rises much above this temperature. So, yes, the concern with fresh bread is the yeast, not the alcohol. Mrs. White never mentions any issue with alcohol in the bread--not a word. She does expressly name the yeast, and speaks of its "germs" not its "alcohol." She does not mention drunkenness. She mentions "digestion."

From the cook's corner (see article HERE):

Quote:
How can you tell if something is done if you can't take a peek inside? When it comes to bread, there are actually a few ways to make sure your lovely loaf is perfectly baked, every time!1. Visually - The more you bake, the more you'll be able to gauge how a loaf of bread should look when it's nearing doneness. For the most part, the crust should be dry, very firm, and a deep golden brown color with darker spots here and there. If the crust is very pale, give it a few more minutes. Recipes usually describe how the bread should look at the end of cooking (the good recipes, anyway!), so you can use that as a guide until you're more familiar with the loaf.

...

3. Take the Internal Temperature - Insert an instant read thermometer into center of the loaf. (If you go at an angle and through the side or bottom, you can minimize the visual evidence!) Most breads are finished baking at about 190°. Breads enriched with butter, eggs, or milk are finished when the internal temperature is closer to 200°.

If you're ever in doubt, it's better to cook the loaf a little longer than to undercook it. An extra five minutes isn't going to burn the crust, and the worst that will happen is that your bread will be a bit on the dry side. But better dry than un-baked!

back

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Last edited by Green Cochoa; 01/26/14 05:55 AM. Reason: Added cook's corner

We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Green Cochoa] #160849
01/26/14 05:22 PM
01/26/14 05:22 PM
G
Gregory  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,364
USA
For more on sauna heat:

Quote:
If their body temperature rose to dangerous levels, this could have proven fatal, according to John Brewer, professor of sport at the University of Bedfordshire.

While the core body temperature is between 37 and 38C, a rise of just four degrees could cause hyperthermia (overheating), collapse and coma, he says.

"The main defence mechanism is sweating - the loss of that latent heat into the environment from evaporation of sweat that causes the body to stay cool," says Prof Brewer.

During exercise, for example, sweating helps to regulate the body temperature below dangerous levels at about 39C.


The source is the article that Green cited.


Gregory
May God's will be done.
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