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Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Mountain Man] #130272
01/20/11 08:14 PM
01/20/11 08:14 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Tom
If someone is doing good things, that's because the Holy Spirit is involved.

1. The best of believers feed, clothe, and shelter the poor and needy.

2. The worst of unbelievers feed, clothe, and shelter the poor and needy.

Two different groups. Identical "generous actions". According to you, the same "Holy Spirit is involved."

Is there any difference between the two sets of "generous actions"? Or, are both sets the result of the Holy Spirit empowering each group to perform the same "generous actions"?
The worst of both believers and unbelievers "
7Cruel people tell lies--
they do evil things,
and make cruel plans
to destroy the poor and needy,
even when they beg
for justice."


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: vastergotland] #130302
01/21/11 02:59 PM
01/21/11 02:59 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,416
Midland
MM, could you respond to Tom's question about Romans 1?
Quote:
This says that people are without excuse because they know of God because God has revealed this knowledge to them. Or do you understand what this is saying in some other way?

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Mountain Man] #130306
01/21/11 05:16 PM
01/21/11 05:16 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
T: If someone is doing good things, that's because the Holy Spirit is involved.

Originally Posted By: MM
1. The best of believers feed, clothe, and shelter the poor and needy.

2. The worst of unbelievers feed, clothe, and shelter the poor and needy.

Two different groups. Identical "generous actions". According to you, the same "Holy Spirit is involved."

Is there any difference between the two sets of "generous actions"? Or, are both sets the result of the Holy Spirit empowering each group to perform the same "generous actions"?

T: Why do you think the worst of unbelievers would be characterized by such things, as opposed to things like rape, child abuse, etc.? You jump around a lot. I don't think you've addressed the points I've made. You just ask more questions. Many of your questions appear to have as an assumption that a person can be loving and compassionate apart from the Holy Spirit's influence. Is this really what you think?

Yes, I believe the worst of unbelievers are capable of helping the best of believers feed, clothe, and shelter the poor and needy. Such "generous actions" are kind, loving, and compassionate. Ellen wrote:

Quote:
The drunkard is despised and is told that his sin will exclude him from heaven; while pride, selfishness, and covetousness too often go unrebuked. But these are sins that are especially offensive to God; for they are contrary to the benevolence of His character, to that unselfish love which is the very atmosphere of the unfallen universe. He who falls into some of the grosser sins may feel a sense of his shame and poverty and his need of the grace of Christ; but pride feels no need, and so it closes the heart against Christ and the infinite blessings He came to give. {SC 30.1}

It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. By what means, then, shall we determine whose side we are on? {SC 58.1}

The worst of unbelievers, as I understand it, include people who produce "generous actions" "without the renewing power of Christ." I hope this answers your question.

Please answer my question: Is there any difference between the two sets of "generous actions"? Or, are both sets the result of the Holy Spirit empowering each group to perform the same "generous actions"?

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: kland] #130307
01/21/11 05:29 PM
01/21/11 05:29 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: kland
MM, could you respond to Tom's question about Romans 1?
Quote:
This says that people are without excuse because they know of God because God has revealed this knowledge to them. Or do you understand what this is saying in some other way?

Earlier on this thread I made it clear that I'm referring to "people who learned about the Lord in the best light and chose not to believe God exists." Paul referred to such people when he wrote, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

So, yes, the people I'm talking about on this thread are fully aware of the truth and in the best light (as opposed to an unfavorable misrepresentation of God). Nevertheless, for whatever reason, they have concluded that God does not exist. In spite of this, they are capable of performing "generous actions" "without the renewing power of Christ". Assuming, of course, you agree feeding, clothing, and sheltering the poor and needy qualify as kind, loving, and compassionate.

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Mountain Man] #130308
01/21/11 05:31 PM
01/21/11 05:31 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: vastergotland
The worst of both believers and unbelievers "
7Cruel people tell lies--
they do evil things,
and make cruel plans
to destroy the poor and needy,
even when they beg
for justice."

I don't understand your point.

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Mountain Man] #130312
01/21/11 06:10 PM
01/21/11 06:10 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: vastergotland
The worst of both believers and unbelievers "
7Cruel people tell lies--
they do evil things,
and make cruel plans
to destroy the poor and needy,
even when they beg
for justice."

I don't understand your point.
My point is that the worst of people, believers or unbelievers, do not volunteer their time to serving soup at a homeless shelter, the worst of people do what the worst of people have always done, they make cruel plans to destroy the poor and needy, even in their face when they beg for mercy.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: vastergotland] #130347
01/22/11 02:58 AM
01/22/11 02:58 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: vastergotland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: vastergotland
The worst of both believers and unbelievers "
7Cruel people tell lies--
they do evil things,
and make cruel plans
to destroy the poor and needy,
even when they beg
for justice."

I don't understand your point.
My point is that the worst of people, believers or unbelievers, do not volunteer their time to serving soup at a homeless shelter, the worst of people do what the worst of people have always done, they make cruel plans to destroy the poor and needy, even in their face when they beg for mercy.

Interesting.

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Mountain Man] #130350
01/22/11 08:35 AM
01/22/11 08:35 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Thats why they are the worst of people, rather your pretty nice neighbour who's BBQ parties you go to and who's only fault is that he is agnostic..


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Mountain Man] #130371
01/23/11 04:56 PM
01/23/11 04:56 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
T: If someone is doing good things, that's because the Holy Spirit is involved.

Originally Posted By: MM
1. The best of believers feed, clothe, and shelter the poor and needy.

2. The worst of unbelievers feed, clothe, and shelter the poor and needy.

Two different groups. Identical "generous actions". According to you, the same "Holy Spirit is involved."

Is there any difference between the two sets of "generous actions"? Or, are both sets the result of the Holy Spirit empowering each group to perform the same "generous actions"?

T: Why do you think the worst of unbelievers would be characterized by such things, as opposed to things like rape, child abuse, etc.? You jump around a lot. I don't think you've addressed the points I've made. You just ask more questions. Many of your questions appear to have as an assumption that a person can be loving and compassionate apart from the Holy Spirit's influence. Is this really what you think?

Yes, I believe the worst of unbelievers are capable of helping the best of believers feed, clothe, and shelter the poor and needy. Such "generous actions" are kind, loving, and compassionate. Ellen wrote:

Quote:
The drunkard is despised and is told that his sin will exclude him from heaven; while pride, selfishness, and covetousness too often go unrebuked. But these are sins that are especially offensive to God; for they are contrary to the benevolence of His character, to that unselfish love which is the very atmosphere of the unfallen universe. He who falls into some of the grosser sins may feel a sense of his shame and poverty and his need of the grace of Christ; but pride feels no need, and so it closes the heart against Christ and the infinite blessings He came to give. {SC 30.1}

It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. By what means, then, shall we determine whose side we are on? {SC 58.1}

The worst of unbelievers, as I understand it, include people who produce "generous actions" "without the renewing power of Christ." I hope this answers your question.

Please answer my question: Is there any difference between the two sets of "generous actions"? Or, are both sets the result of the Holy Spirit empowering each group to perform the same "generous actions"?

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Mountain Man] #130406
01/25/11 07:31 PM
01/25/11 07:31 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
T:Many of your questions appear to have as an assumption that a person can be loving and compassionate apart from the Holy Spirit's influence. Is this really what you think?

M:Yes, I believe the worst of unbelievers are capable of helping the best of believers feed, clothe, and shelter the poor and needy. Such "generous actions" are kind, loving, and compassionate.


This is a bit confusing, as you say "Yes," but then go on and talk about something I didn't ask, and present a quote about something I didn't ask about as well. So please let me try again.

Many of your questions appear to have as an assumption that a person can be loving and compassionate apart from the Holy Spirit's influence. Is this really what you think?

Please note that what I'm asking is if a person can *be* loving and compassionate apart from the Holy Spirit.

Quote:
M:The worst of unbelievers, as I understand it, include people who produce "generous actions" "without the renewing power of Christ." I hope this answers your question.


Why do you think this? Again, the "worst of unbelievers" would, in most people's mind, I think, include people who do things like abuse children, not help the homeless and other needy people. Why do you think these actions better define the "worst of unbelievers" as opposed to what would come to most people's minds?

Quote:
Please answer my question: Is there any difference between the two sets of "generous actions"? Or, are both sets the result of the Holy Spirit empowering each group to perform the same "generous actions"?


So far you're asking me things about an empty set, as far as I can tell. It's like me asking you questions about the actions that people on Mars perform. First you'd have to convince me that there are people on Mars.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Page 13 of 40 1 2 11 12 13 14 15 39 40

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