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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #130616
02/04/11 07:54 PM
02/04/11 07:54 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline

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The Orient
Originally Posted By: Tom
Returning to MM's request that I lead the study as I see fit, based on the revelation of Jesus Christ, who said, "When you've seen Me, you've see the Father," what can we conclude that God is like?


One characteristic that I much admire about God is that He is FAIR. He is just. He will "reward every man as his work shall be."

I like the way God puts it through the pen of Ellen White in Christ's Object Lessons.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
By these angel messengers a faithful record is kept of the words and deeds of the children of men. Every act of cruelty or injustice toward God's people, all they are caused to suffer through the power of evil workers, is registered in heaven. {COL 177.1}
"Shall not God avenge His own elect, which cry day and night unto Him, though He bear long with them? I tell you that He will avenge them speedily." {COL 177.2}
"Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and He that shall come will come, and will not tarry." Hebrews 10:35-37. "Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts; for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh." James 5:7, 8. {COL 177.3}
The long-suffering of God is wonderful. Long does justice wait while mercy pleads with the sinner. But "righteousness and judgment are the establishment of His throne." Psalm 97:2, margin. "The Lord is slow to anger;" but He is "great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the Lord hath His way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of His feet." Nahum 1:3. {COL 177.4}
The world has become bold in transgression of God's law. Because of His long forbearance, men have trampled upon His authority. They have strengthened one another in oppression and cruelty toward His heritage, saying, "How doth God know? and is there knowledge in the Most High?" Psalm 73:11. But there is a line beyond which they cannot pass. The time is near when they will have reached the prescribed limit. Even now they have almost exceeded the bounds of the long-suffering of God, the limits of His grace, the limits of His mercy. The Lord will interpose to vindicate His own honor, to deliver His people, and to repress the swellings of unrighteousness. {COL 177.5}
In Noah's day, men had disregarded the law of God until almost all remembrance of the Creator had passed away from the earth. Their iniquity reached so great a height that the Lord brought a flood of waters upon the earth, and swept away its wicked inhabitants. {COL 178.1}
From age to age the Lord has made known the manner of His working. When a crisis has come, He has revealed Himself, and has interposed to hinder the working out of Satan's plans. With nations, with families, and with individuals, He has often permitted matters to come to a crisis, that His interference might become marked. Then He has made manifest that there is a God in Israel who will maintain His law and vindicate His people. {COL 178.2}


1. Every evil act is registered in heaven, just as good acts are registered.
2. Jesus announced that these evil acts will be avenged by God.
3. God's long-suffering is wonderful, and long, but has a limit.
4. God is "slow to anger." The text does not say that God will never be angry. There is a limit to His forbearance.
5. God "will not at all acquit the wicked."
6. God hinders the work of Satan. Amen!
7. God will vindicate His people. Amen!

Regarding hindering the work of Satan, there are some notable examples in the Bible which Ellen White alluded to in this passage and which I may elaborate on in another post.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong. -- Thomas Jefferson

Error is never harmless. It never sanctifies, but always brings confusion and dissension. -- Ellen White

The Bible, and the Bible alone, is to be our creed, the sole bond of union; all who bow to this Holy Word will be in harmony. ...Let us meet all opposition as did our Master, saying, "It is written." -- Ellen White
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #130678
02/07/11 09:52 PM
02/07/11 09:52 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
T:Returning to MM's request that I lead the study as I see fit, based on the revelation of Jesus Christ, who said, "When you've seen Me, you've see the Father," what can we conclude that God is like?

M:The Father's character includes at least the following:

Exouds
34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear [the guilty]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth [generation].

Galatians
5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


Really hard to follow the logic here. How does a quote from Exodus explain what God is like, based on Christ's revelation of Him while here in the flesh?

I agree that God is like these things, of course, and the same for the Galatians quote, but don't see the connection. I was expecting some sort of summary of what Christ was like, and then the conclusion that, based on Christ's statement, the Father is like that too.

Originally Posted By: MM
Tom, how does knowing and believing the Father and the Son are merciful and gracious help us understand why God commanded godly people to kill ungodly people? If you're not ready to explain why, that's okay. If so, please continue to build your case. Thank you.


I think we need to be careful not to get the cart before the horse. What is God like? That should be our first question. Otherwise we're bound to interpret what's happening in the OT incorrectly.

And I think this is the big problem. I think you're understanding what happened in the OT incorrectly and then ask questions based on that understanding, using that as the foundation of everything else. I think that's the wrong foundation. The foundation should be Jesus Christ. What did He reveal about God? Then ask what happened, and why.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #130679
02/07/11 10:15 PM
02/07/11 10:15 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: GC
1. Every evil act is registered in heaven, just as good acts are registered.
2. Jesus announced that these evil acts will be avenged by God.
3. God's long-suffering is wonderful, and long, but has a limit.
4. God is "slow to anger." The text does not say that God will never be angry. There is a limit to His forbearance.
5. God "will not at all acquit the wicked."
6. God hinders the work of Satan. Amen!
7. God will vindicate His people. Amen!


In regards to vengeance, the following comes to mind:

Quote:
19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.(Romans 12)


Here we see how vengeance is obtained: By doing good to those who do evil! It sounds backwards to our way of thinking, but this is the way of God's kingdom.

If your enemy is in need, what do you do? You attend to his need. This is the way of vengeance. And this is God's way of vengeance as well. Overcoming evil with good.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #130718
02/09/11 01:38 AM
02/09/11 01:38 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Originally Posted By: MM
T:Returning to MM's request that I lead the study as I see fit, based on the revelation of Jesus Christ, who said, "When you've seen Me, you've see the Father," what can we conclude that God is like?

M:The Father's character includes at least the following:

Exouds
34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear [the guilty]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth [generation].

Galatians
5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


Really hard to follow the logic here. How does a quote from Exodus explain what God is like, based on Christ's revelation of Him while here in the flesh?

I agree that God is like these things, of course, and the same for the Galatians quote, but don't see the connection. I was expecting some sort of summary of what Christ was like, and then the conclusion that, based on Christ's statement, the Father is like that too.

Originally Posted By: MM
Tom, how does knowing and believing the Father and the Son are merciful and gracious help us understand why God commanded godly people to kill ungodly people? If you're not ready to explain why, that's okay. If so, please continue to build your case. Thank you.


I think we need to be careful not to get the cart before the horse. What is God like? That should be our first question. Otherwise we're bound to interpret what's happening in the OT incorrectly.

And I think this is the big problem. I think you're understanding what happened in the OT incorrectly and then ask questions based on that understanding, using that as the foundation of everything else. I think that's the wrong foundation. The foundation should be Jesus Christ. What did He reveal about God? Then ask what happened, and why.

Please lead the study. Provide answers.

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #130736
02/09/11 04:33 PM
02/09/11 04:33 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
How did Jesus deal with this enemies? I suppose, a good first question would be, who were Jesus' enemies?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #130753
02/10/11 05:48 PM
02/10/11 05:48 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, would you mind simply stating the truth? Perhaps summarizing your view would be beneficial.

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #130758
02/10/11 10:04 PM
02/10/11 10:04 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I think Jesus treated His enemies by returning good for evil, kindness for violence.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #130762
02/11/11 01:01 AM
02/11/11 01:01 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Amen! Do you have more, or does this summarize your study?

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #130766
02/11/11 08:58 AM
02/11/11 08:58 AM
NJK Project  Offline
Banned Member
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,098
Laval, Quebec
I personally, theologically think that in the context of a most-supposed to be righteous society of God, who had heard God proclaim His Law with their own ears, such capital judgements were to serve as a tangible object lesson to Israel of what Hell Judgement will be, where people will both suffer and then (eternally) die for, then any and every sin. This ordained judgement also had a practical purpose to help maintain the religious community of Israel. If we just trace the ultimate end result due to the committing of each of these capital crimes, i.e., if everybody did them, as seen in our degenerate societies today, then we can see the ultimate end result of death. Thus the justified, pre-emptive and most deterring, death penalty for them. God is all-wise and just in what He, always judiciously, allows to be done!


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #130880
02/14/11 05:30 PM
02/14/11 05:30 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
Amen! Do you have more, or does this summarize your study?


I could try to summarize where I perceive our chief difference lies. I see my paradigm as being characterized by, "Let determine what God is like by considering the revelation of Jesus Christ while He was here in the flesh. This provides a complete revelation of God's character, which is not lacking in any particular."

I see you paradigm as being characterized by, "Considering the revelation of Jesus Christ while here in the flesh is certainly a good thing to do, but it's not enough. We also need to consider other revelations God has given us in regards to His character."


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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