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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #131349
03/02/11 01:45 PM
03/02/11 01:45 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
NJK:Indeed, as shown in this post, some of the things that EGW state and seem to be extra-biblical are proven to be concretely in the Bible through a deeper exegesis. However, naturally, this ability is necessary for exegetical issues, such as the Syntax of Biblical Languages.


I agree with this, although I would change the "some of the things" to "many of the things" in regards to EGW. That is, a great deal of what she writes can be found in Scripture, if one has a discerning eye.

While working with Biblical languages is important, it seems to me a far greater deficiency is a lack of familiarity with the culture and history, the "milieu," which leads to many fanciful interpretations for which there may appear to be a linguistic support, but which, taking into account the historical setting, would be impossible. Perhaps the State of the Dead is an example of this.

Quote:
I agree with your assertion that foundational passages are being misunderstood or indifferently ignored in this discussion. You seem to be working from an already self-established view that sin is not organic,...


I actually got this view from ready what God said in Gen 2:17b & 3:22-24, as confirmed by the SOP in PP 60.3. That is indeed what anchored my viewed on this subject and I, in a deductive approach, study all other Bible and also SOP passages in that clearest light.


It seems really odd to me that you would consider these passages to be foundational when it comes to the question of eternal life and eternal death. Why wouldn't a passage like John 3:16, for example, be more foundational? Or Romans 6:23? Or the many passages in John where life is linked to Christ? Is it really possible that the message of Scripture is that life comes from a tree, as opposed to from Jesus Christ, who said, "I am the resurrection and the life," and of whom it is said, "He who has the Son has life; He who has not the Son has not life"?

Quote:
I would like to see a listing of those specific passages because I (off the top of my head) only recall the passage in Ezek 18:4 where God says: the soul (i.e., living person) that sins shall die. Which actually is meaning, the person who has himself sinned in that case will die. However even if this is understand as ‘sin leads to death’, which I do not see that it is exegetically/contextually concerned with, I still see that the 2 statements in Genesis have already, foundationally, defined/described why death was the consequence/result of having sinned.


Assuming the words of Jesus Christ count as words coming directly from the mouth of God, there are many passages where Christ explains the causes of life and death, including faith in Him and obedience. Since I'm sure you're familiar with them, I won't quote them, but wouldn't you agree that Christ taught that obedience/faith in Him leads to eternal life, whereas disobedience/unbelief leads to eternal death?

Quote:
T:Indeed, the Bible is a spiritual book, which is spiritually discerned. It seems to me if we view death as only/primarily physical, we're missing the whole point. If this were the case, what would be special about the cross? Certainly from a physical standpoint, there have been many more impressive deaths than Christ's.

NJK:I appreciate your right to express your personal point of view, but I think it would be better at this foundational level of this discussion if we do not now focus on what would “seem to be right for us” or ‘what should be’ but rather on what the Bible is literally saying, as revealed through proper and indepth exegesis. So if I make such personal suppositions, do not hesitate to point them out to me.


Here are points made in the above paragraph, to which you are responding:

1.The Bible is a spiritual book.
2.It is spiritually discerned.
3.If we view death as primarily/only physical, we miss the point.
4.If physical death is the primary/only thing that matters, then there are other deaths more impressive than Christ's.

You didn't respond to any of these points, other than to make a general statement regarding what the Bible "literally" says is what's important. Do you disagree with any of these assertions? If you do, please state so, and state why.

Also, when you speak of what the Bible "literally" says, what do you mean by this? The Bible, being a spiritual book, is spiritually discerned. We need the Holy Spirit to understand it. Our willingness to respond to Him, our willingness to understand and to do God's will are critical to our ability to correctly understand Scripture. Do you disagree?

Quote:
T:Gen. 2:17 is one of the most debated passages in Scripture. Why do you think this is the case?

NJK:That is the first time I hear of this,


There are opinions as to whether this meant physically die on that very day, spiritually die on that very day, or begin to die on that day. Aren't you aware of this?

Quote:
but be it as it may, that still does not mean that it cannot be understood through proper exegesis.


My point wasn't that it can't be understood, but that it's a highly controverted passage. I asked you why you think this is the case. I'll venture to suggest it's because it's a difficult passage to understand.

Quote:
(I know from many, many past experiences that such a surface, non-substantive objection to studying out a passage has never proven to be the incontrovertible obstacle that it had been claimed to be.) So let’s deal with the text here, rather than what people claim about it, even if more substantively than this objection. As a trained seminarian, I presume that analysing the crucial syntax here of the last statement in that verse should not be a problem here. So, seriously speaking, let’s concretely deal with it already!


I think if it were this simple, there would be widespread agreement as to its meaning.

Quote:
T:I find your statement here rather incredible. Certainly there is the implication that Ellen White's writings are inferior to those of Scripture because:

1.She was not inerrant (whereas Bible writers weren't).
2.Her writings were greatly dependent upon how she understood some things, whereas those of the Bible writers were not.

Is this correctly representing your thought? Do you really think that the writings of Scripture were not greatly dependent upon how the Bible writers understood things?

NJK:First of all, that is not a personal opinion but a factual one.


This isn't a reasonable assertion. First of all, it pits personal opinion against factual opinion, which doesn't make sense. You are expressing an opinion, which is yours, so it is certainly a personal opinion. It may or may not be true.

Secondly, what's the point in such an assertion? I can just as readily say that what I'm writing to you are not personal opinions, but are facts. How would that be helpful?

Quote:
The writings of EGW are indeed the Lesser, and actually not indispensable, Light while the Bible is the Greater and indispensable light.


This is a reference to the Sanctuary service, where the greater light referred to the Pentateuch, and the lesser light were the other writings of the Old Testament. The thought is not that the lesser is inferior in terms of quality (i.e., less error-prone), or inspiration.

Quote:
Secondly, errors/inacurracies,/incomplete understandings in the SOP are a matter of fact and not opinion. That can easily be studied out from many honest and responsible works that deal with these issues.


Is it your idea that these are present in the SOP, but not in Scripture? That's what I'm asking.

Again, you are asserting that what you say is not opinion but fact. I don't see the point in doing so. Anyone can do this. Why bother? Of course you believe what you say is true.

Quote:
Thirdly I was not dealing with the Bible vs . the Bible in that response but solely the SOP vs. the Bible.


I wasn't asking you a question in terms of Bible vs. Bible, but in terms of Bible vs. the SOP. Your response appeared to be stating you believe the Bible is inerrant, whereas the SOP is not, and that Ellen White was greatly dependent upon some things she understood, whereas the Bible writers were not. I'm wanting to know how the Bible writers could not be greatly dependent upon things they understood.

Quote:
Having said that, one of the reasons why there are very little, if any such crucial “differences” between the writings of Bible writers is that they, much more than less, over 1600 years of this writing period, all spoke the same language, lived in the same geographical area, had the same culture, lived in pretty much homogeneous worldly times, etcs. We today, includign EGW are far removed from these key aspects for this crucial “context” and so it is mainly through in depth exegesis that we can recreate this need context through which we can understand what was being said.


By "deep exegesis" do you mean more than simply linguistic considerations?

Quote:
And so it is because of this variously manifested remoteness that much of the errors, inaccuracies and deficiencies in our Biblical understandings come to occur.


I agree with this, if "deep exegesis" includes an understanding of historical and cultural considerations.

Quote:
And, correspondingly, what we think are errors in the Bible is actually due to our own exegetical deficiency.


Or our paradigm. I think that's a more likely cause, or, better stated, a more "pregnant" cause. What I mean is that having a wrong paradigm can lead to errors that are real "whoppers," whereas if our paradigm is correct, the errors we have will be of lesser import. For example, the paradigm of some who lived in Christ's day led them to crucify Him.

Quote:
So I do factually known and see that the writing of EGW are subordinate to the Bible itself.


You didn't answer my questions. They were two. I'll restate them.

1.Do you believe that Ellen White's writings are not inerrant, whereas Scripture is?

You just addressed the first part, regarding Ellen White. You've implied you believe Scripture is inerrant, but haven't explicitly stated so. What I'm getting at is you appear to believe that Ellen White's writings have errors in them, whereas there are no errors in Scripture. I want to know if this is correctly stating your belief.

2.How is it possible that the Bible writers were not greatly dependent upon some of the things they understood?

I'm going to stop here for time considerations. I appreciate your detailed response very much. I'll continue as I have time.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #131350
03/02/11 02:50 PM
03/02/11 02:50 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
T:I don't think this sense is a sense that anyone considering the cross sees. I can think of many, many statements regarding the cross, by both inspired and non-inspired writers, but cannot recall every the idea being mentioned that sin without the Cross = Death by no tree of life.

This doesn't mean, of course, that of necessity your idea is false, but simply it is an idea original to yourself. You may dispute this by citing someone who has written that sin without the Cross = Death by no tree of life. I don't mind being wrong here, by the way, as I like learning new things. Simply quote for me someone who has expressed this idea. I don't mean word for word, but simply the idea in a general sense. I don't believe anyone considering the cross would have the idea that from it one sees that death comes about as a result of not having access to the tree of life.

NJK:Skipping over the recurring issue of overgeneralization, I do not guage what is Biblically true, by what most people believe.


If you'll notice what I said, I said this doesn't mean what you believe isn't true, but that it's original to yourself, which substantiates my point that one (with the singular exception of yourself) considering the cross would not have the idea that not partaking of the tree of life is what causes one's death.

Quote:
Only the Bible can serve as the indicator and arbitrator of actual Truth. That is therefore why, again, it is passages like Gen 2:17b; 3:22-24 and PP 60.3 that have shown to me this to be the Biblical Truth here. If you disagree address these passages substantively and head on rather than continuing to skirt them,* and worst appealing to popular consensus.


Not popular consensus, but any consensus! I'm just asking you to cite ONE person (other than yourself), that has the view you are espousing.

Quote:
Biblical Truth is not determined through setting up a voting booth.


If there's only one person in all recorded history that has a given view, it should be easy to see why such a view should be treated prudently. Why should I think you alone have the correct view in regards to the cross? I'm just asking for one other "voter" besides yourself.

Quote:
So I indeed quote God Himself in the Bible for the validity of this Theological understanding.


Where does God Himself in the Bible say that when one considers the cross, the lesson is that one will die if one does not partake of the tree of life? Let's keep in mind that what we're discussing here is the assertion that when one considers the cross, one comes to the conviction that the sure result of sin is death.

Quote:
*I.e. If I am saying that 2+2=5, you can’t actually nor think to be disproving my “view” by even rightly saying that: 3+1=4. You rather/duly have to address that calculation “error” head on. Why you as a seminarian are not jumping on this would-be exegetical opportunity to prove me wrong, and doing this “correction” is actually quite baffling me, to say the least. It just demonstrates to me that you cannot exegtically disprove this concrete Biblical fact.


I think you've gone away from what I was asking you about. Ellen White wrote that considering the cross brings the conviction that the sure result of sin is death. I said that no one considering the cross would conclude that the sure result of sin is death because of being denied access to the Tree of Life. You disputed this. So I asked you to cite someone, other than yourself, who holds this view.

Here's my assertion: You hold a view regarding the cross that no one else holds.

Please either disprove my assertion by citing someone other than yourself who holds the view you hold, or concur with my assertion.

Quote:
T:They don't! Jesus said, "He who believes in me shall never die."

NJK:Let be serious and Biblically/exegetically responsible here. People do die. Jesus was speaking here of dying eternally.


I've been speaking dying eternally throughout our discussion. I've made this clear by such expressions as "the second death," and quoted from passages which were discussing this.

Quote:
Had Adam and Eve never sinned, they would never have died at all. And that because they would have continued to have access to the Tree of Life.


How about Jesus Christ? What did He mean when He said that whosoever believes in Him should not die but have life eternal? Is Jesus Christ not important in this conversation?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #131356
03/02/11 05:47 PM
03/02/11 05:47 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Originally Posted By: MM
T: I've suggested over and over again that the way to tackle this question is to first form a foundation based on what God's character is, based on the life and revelation of Jesus Christ, and then come back to these questions, as opposed to starting with these questions

M: Okay, let's do it your way. Please take the lead. Present your case in a way that explains 1) why Jesus commanded godly people to kill ungodly people in battle, 2) why Jesus commanded godly people to execute capital punishment, and 3) why Jesus withdraws His protection and permits the forces of nature, evil men, and/or evil angels to kill men, women, and children.

The purpose of this exercise is to obtain a correct understanding of the three actions named above. That is, the "way to tackle this question is to first form a foundation based on what God's character is, based on the life and revelation of Jesus Christ, and then come back to these questions." I agree. Please take the lead. Thank you.

T: All right. Let's consider the revelation of God given by Christ through His life and teachings. What did He teach us regarding God? Let's start with the Sermon on the Mount. What did Christ teach regarding God? Christ taught that one should turn the other cheek, walk the second mile, give the shirt off one's back to the request of a coat, that one should love one's enemies. Is God like this?

M: Tom, all of the above is what you agreed to.

T: Yes, this indeed looks like what I agreed to.

MM, if you would put the post#, that would help a lot, when it's not a recent post. It took a while to find this, but here's what I wrote, which I'm posting to make clear what the "this" that I am agreeing to is:

Originally Posted By: Tom
Yes, this indeed looks like what I agreed to, which is not what you've been suggesting. Note:

"I've suggested over and over again that the way to tackle this question is to first form a foundation based on what God's character is, based on the life and revelation of Jesus Christ, and then come back to these questions, as opposed to starting with these questions."

So I am opposed to starting with the questions you keep asking. I think the problem lies with the whole mindset that would ask the question. I believe a correct understanding of God's character would result in the asking of different questions.

Please present your case in a way that explains 1) why Jesus commanded godly people to kill ungodly people in battle, 2) why Jesus commanded godly people to execute capital punishment, and 3) why Jesus withdraws His protection and permits the forces of nature, evil men, and/or evil angels to kill men, women, and children.

The purpose of this exercise is to obtain a correct understanding of the three actions named above. That is, the "way to tackle this question is to first form a foundation based on what God's character is, based on the life and revelation of Jesus Christ, and then come back to these questions."

You wrote, "I believe a correct understanding of God's character would result in the asking of different questions." As it relates to the three types of actions named above, how would you rephrase the three questions I asked above?

PS - "MM, if you would put the post#, that would help a lot, when it's not a recent post." I noticed you also forgot to cite the post number. Must be contagious. Sorry.

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #131360
03/02/11 08:39 PM
03/02/11 08:39 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
T:Eternal life is not of works, but of faith. Surely having to ask for forgiveness every second to obtain eternal life would be tantamount to salvation by works.

NJK:How about this then. How about asking for forgiven after every single sin, as most, born from above Christian aim to do. And a blanket prayer occasionally for committed sins we may have missed. That’s certainly is not works, as it is with cause. Why then do will still physically die sin we are forgiven?


Our physical death has nothing to do with whether or not we sin or ask forgiveness. We physically die for the same reason insects and other living beings on earth die.

Quote:
T:I addressed this. We can only life forever by breathing. Does this mean that the problem of death is one best answered by considering breathing?

M:That is not a good analogy because we actually do not breathe, since at some point our lungs fail, or some other vital body part and we stop breathing.


We do not actually breathe, since at some point our lungs fail, or some other vital body part and we stop breathing? This doesn't make any sense. Of course we actually breathe. We actually breathe until we stop breathing.

Quote:
The Tree of Life however prevents this from ever becoming the case by restoring out body and its part to perfect health, apparently every month. So, as the Bible clearly states. the problem of dying because of sin is still inextricably linked together by the removal of the Tree of Life that occurred in Eden.


The analogy is that if we don't breathe, we die. God created us in such a way that we need to breath in order to live. That doesn't mean that the theological problem of death (the second death) in a physical one.

You're using an argument similar to this one. You're saying that if Adam and Eve died because they were denied access to the Tree of Life, so therefore death (the second death) is a physical problem, related to whether or not one has access to the Tree of Life. I'm saying that the issue of eternal life and eternal death is a spiritual one, depending upon whether or not they have faith in Christ.

I'm saying that just as you are that eternal death is a physical issue because Adam and Eve died because they did not have access to the Tree of Life, so one could argue that eternal death is a physical issue because if one did not have access to air, one would die.

The Tree of Life (and breathing) are means to teach us of our dependence upon God for life. I'm not denying that the Tree of Life has healthful benefits (as does breathing), but am pointing out that the real significant thing is that *God* is life, and is the source of life, and we have life by virtue of being united to Him, which the Tree of Life was meant to teach.

Quote:
T:Let's consider sin for a moment. The root of sin is selfishness, or love of self (or, one could say, unbelief). Do you disagree with this?

NJK:Not fully, however I do not see that such derived issues can be examined yet since the exegetical foundation is still not set on your part. So that is really just ‘jumping to a conclusion’ and a rather subjective one at that (e.g., “one could say”)


"One could say" is not subjective. It indicates that something could be said in another way. It has nothing to do with subjectivity.

The point is that sin is based on principles which are not conducive to life.

Quote:
T:Assuming you don't, how is it possible that such principles as these could sustain life forever? (or, even at all)

NJK:As the Bible in Gen 3:22 and PP 60.3 says, by the sinner continuing to eat of the Tree of life, and that not only one more time, but for, at least once a month for every month after that.


This doesn't address the issue that the principles of sin are not conducive to life. Or maybe it does indirectly, if your point is that it doesn't matter if you sin or not, as long as you have access to the Tree of Life. You could sin as much as you wanted, and you would never die. I guess that's your idea.

So you could be totally separated from God, and not die, as long as you're not separated from the tree.

Quote:

T:Life is the fruit of faith, of obedience.

R:Gen 3:22-24 rather teaches that the ‘Right to Life’ is the fruit of faith that leads to obedience to God.


What about the rest of Scripture? Should I quote some texts which state that life is the fruit of faith, of obedience?

Quote:
T:God alone is the source of life.

NJK:He has indeed Created Life and has, through an apparently highly scientific process made it that human life, i.e., of non-immortal beings is perpetuated through the healing ingredients in the fruit of Life.


Life is not only a physical thing. Eternal life involves more than physically living forever.

Quote:
T:We receive life by being yoked to Him.

NJK:We receive physical life only when we are faithful and obedient and thus have right to the Tree of Life on top of Him not injuctively killing us if need be. E.g., fallen man could live for up to 969 years, if not 1000 years, still God could have injunctively destroyed them at any point before such natural time elapse.


Why do other living beings on earth die? Will they not live forever in the new earth? Will they need access to the Tree of Life?

Quote:
T:The parable of the Vine illustrates this. We have no life except as we are connected to God, and the whole point of the Tree of Life is to make evident this point, in the clearest manner possible.

NJK:Since the parable of the Vine (John 15:1-11) is speaking of spiritual vitality i.e., a fruit-bearing life (vs. 8), then it exegetically does not, per se, speaking on this issue of physical life. So that is really a textbook “proof-text.”


The life we have by connected to Christ is eternal life, not (merely) physical life.

Quote:
Now that we are branches of the Living Vine we will be nourished by the sap that flows from the Vine. It flows all the time to every branch, and every branch will bear fruit to the glory of God. "It is your Father's good pleasure" "that ye bear much fruit." Well then, what is our position? It must be a position of living faith. {FW 65.2}...

You may be united to the Living Vine. Every member of your whole being may be united to that Vine, and the sap and nourishment that come from the Vine will nourish the branch that is in the Vine, until you are one with Christ as He was one

with the Father. Thus His blessings will be imparted to you. But brethren, we have not had faith. We have dishonored God by unbelief long enough. {FW 66.5}


Here's an example from the first Commentary I happened to run across:

Quote:
Believers are branches of this Vine. The root is unseen, and our life is hid with Christ; the root bears the tree, diffuses sap to it, and in Christ are all supports and supplies. The branches of the vine are many, yet, meeting in the root, are all but one vine; thus all true Christians, though in place and opinion distant from each other, meet in Christ. Believers, like the branches of the vine, are weak, and unable to stand but as they are borne up. The Father is the Husbandman. Never was any husbandman so wise, so watchful, about his vineyard, as God is about his church, which therefore must prosper. We must be fruitful. From a vine we look for grapes, and from a Christian we look for a Christian temper, disposition, and life.


Isn't it evident that a lesson from the parable is that we receive life from Christ? This thought is all over the Gospel of John. Also in his first epistle. Do you disagree?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #131363
03/02/11 09:09 PM
03/02/11 09:09 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,416
Midland
Originally Posted By: NJK Project

Originally Posted By: kland
If something is so clear and obvious, why should there be a need to dig diligently? And isn't that what we are instructed to do?

I judiciously reserve my clear statement for points that I do, at least personally, consider to be clear. So claiming that I am wrong in such cases, will have to be done substantively and not by merely addressing the use of “clear” in a statement. So where exegetically-based points prove something to be clear, I accordingly explicitly say so.

It sounds like you are saying what I attempted to say, that is, things can only be clear to you personally and does not mean the same thing is clear to others nor does it make it correct nor should that "clearness" be urged upon others.

And speaking of correctness, if I understood you correctly, I do believe you are incorrect about Saul.

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #131364
03/02/11 09:13 PM
03/02/11 09:13 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Midland
MM, I believe I had asked you to state why you thought Tom thought different questions would be asked once one looks at Jesus' life.

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #131365
03/02/11 10:20 PM
03/02/11 10:20 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
Please present your case in a way that explains 1) why Jesus commanded godly people to kill ungodly people in battle, 2) why Jesus commanded godly people to execute capital punishment, and 3) why Jesus withdraws His protection and permits the forces of nature, evil men, and/or evil angels to kill men, women, and children.


I addressed this.

Quote:
The purpose of this exercise is to obtain a correct understanding of the three actions named above. That is, the "way to tackle this question is to first form a foundation based on what God's character is, based on the life and revelation of Jesus Christ, and then come back to these questions."

You wrote, "I believe a correct understanding of God's character would result in the asking of different questions."


This is how I addressed the above.

Quote:
As it relates to the three types of actions named above, how would you rephrase the three questions I asked above?


What is God's character like? How does God treat His enemies? Given how God treats His enemies, why would God request someone else to act in a way so out of harmony with His own character?

Quote:
PS - "MM, if you would put the post#, that would help a lot, when it's not a recent post." I noticed you also forgot to cite the post number. Must be contagious. Sorry.


It wasn't a post# from several months ago, was it? If so, I'm also sorry about that. I tend not to include numbers if the post was in the immediate past, but if it's many screens back I try to.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #131369
03/02/11 11:37 PM
03/02/11 11:37 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Oh, MM, btw, Welcome Back!


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #131370
03/03/11 02:49 AM
03/03/11 02:49 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Oh, MM, btw, Welcome Back!

Thank you. I enjoy my work, but I miss my wife terribly when I'm away on assignment.

Originally Posted By: Tom
M: Please present your case in a way that explains 1) why Jesus commanded godly people to kill ungodly people in battle, 2) why Jesus commanded godly people to execute capital punishment, and 3) why Jesus withdraws His protection and permits the forces of nature, evil men, and/or evil angels to kill men, women, and children.

T: Given how God treats His enemies, why would God request someone else to act in a way so out of harmony with His own character?

Indeed, why? For example, why did He command Moses to utterly kill every man, woman, and child? And, what of the other two named above?

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: kland] #131371
03/03/11 02:54 AM
03/03/11 02:54 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: kland
MM, I believe I had asked you to state why you thought Tom thought different questions would be asked once one looks at Jesus' life.

I'm hoping to understand why as we study it further. Tom is good at explaining things.

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